[readytofixmyselffirst]

To me, I had free will many years ago. I could go to bed when I wanted, I could clean when I wanted to, I could eat all the junk food, and I drank coca cola in the morning and ate ice cream at night. I was free, but I was alone. You give up free will to have a family. Personally the free will wasn't worth the loneliness. Just my humble opinion

[pexio]

Yes, we people of faith have Someone to go to who helps and supports us. I honestly don't know how anyone lives without that support. For me personally, if I didn't have God, I would have cashed in this life a long time ago.

Don't knock it until you've tried it.  I've traveled both paths and logic and rationality trumps "faith" every time.  I prefer to support myself.  I've been an atheist/determinist a long time and I've endured (as an LBS) as much pain as anyone.  Guess what?  I'm still here.  Different strokes for different folks.

[Rollercoasterider]

Pexio,

So is it different strokes for different folks? Or logic trumps faith?

I vote for the different strokes for different folks...since for many logic does not trump faith! 

What I do find so wonderful is that poeple on this forum are so welcoming to both people who are religious and people who are not. That was my vision and desire, but given that I am religious and I include it in my articles and as a part of my Stand--only a part--I have often worried that I would attract strict judgers.

Some of the other communities were that way and they didn't like me...with my hypnotherapy, psychics and challenges to religious discussions...which to me are fun!

[pexio]

Pexio,

So is it different strokes for different folks? Or logic trumps faith?

 

It's both.  What I should have said is "I've traveled both paths and logic and rationality trump "faith" every time FOR ME.  I'm glad that this board is tolerant of different viewpoints since whatever gives us our answers and gets us through our tough times is A-OK in my book.  Who am I to judge?

But, we've digressed to discussing "freedom of choice/free will".  And so we are making arguments, offering "evidence" to support our assertions.  For me, the argument from authority (we have free will because God says so) is just as frustrating to me as it was when I was a kid and I asked my Mom why I couldn't do or have something and all she said was, "Cuz I SAID so!"   

[leftylulu]

I want to go back to Mermaid's first post with the Corithians verse. It was ironic to see this posted because when MLC'er came back for 2 1/2 months he brought that verse over and posted it on my refrigerator. It is still there, I look at it every day. I thank him for that, he does believe in that when he is himself. He told me thath he liked the Corinthians part of the Bible the most, it talks about marraige. He believes in the constituition of marriage as I do. I am not married to him but I have that connection in my head. We had, I still have, that level of connection but I believe we met for a reason but the timing was off. This is a great thread. I too have chosen freely to continue to believe in the process.

[Mermaid]

While I found all of your posts interesting, I disagree (lovingly) with your thinking that free will is not free. I think that some might get free will and free choice mixed up.

CK, thank you for your (loving) disagreement. Can you tell me the difference between free will and free choice?

I agree that we can reflect on our options and take decisions. This is what we are doing here; our natural reaction would be to scream at our MLCer/ divorce them / throw the frying pan at them. But it takes a while to realise what our possibilities are and to be able to direct our emotions appropriately. You are right, as well, in that our MLCers have the social and moral responsibility for their actions, as we do too. That is not the same as saying we have absolute free will to choose what we do.

What I wrote was not based on opinion or belief but science. Even in law, there are mitigating circumstances for emotional reactions. In social and neurological science there are many more explanations for our social behaviour which gives far less scope for individual choice or free will than we would like to believe. As we see in our MLCers, they seem unaware of the consequences of their choices, confused, lost. They seemed to be pulled by a number of different things; perhaps the limbic brain has something to do with gravitating towards younger partners; perhaps depression, stress or disease have altered their neurological profile. Early childhood experience and resources will affect their response too, in a way that we can sometimes see more than they can themselves.

It's harder to see ourselves, and to take control of our emotions, although we are trying. That's what this forum is about, with the great support network we have built between us here. In conclusion, our control over out choices and our awareness of them are limited, but our possibilities are increased through the mutual reflection we do here.

Finally, does logic trump faith? I don't think they are comparable. It's like saying one culture is better than another. Faith is a resource (a gift?) that some people use to help deal with life. Logic is another. We use what we can and what we know.

[Mermaid]

Would Narcissism be in that category of being in love with someone in "your own head"? He was actually looking at himself and saw this beautiful person that he was in love with. Was it pure fantasy, imagination or did he really see something that he, himself, manufactured?

Sorry, Agape, just saw this now. Yes, it comes from the myth of Narcissus. Narcisisitic personality disorder means the person has the need to feel admired, be superior, and shows lack of empathy for others. They are "excessively preoccupied with issues of personal adequacy, power, and prestige"

[agape]

Are they by any chance lacking these qualities (personal adequacy, power, and prestige),  never had them or those qualities were wiped off during the parental upbringing?

Oedipus was in love with his mother. I wander if those two have something in common, i.e. lacking something from the childhood. And also wandering if the MLC belongs in this group.

Most are not satisfied with what they have and the grass is greener over the fence.

[Mermaid]

Are they by any chance lacking these qualities (personal adequacy, power, and prestige),  never had them or those qualities were wiped off during the parental upbringing?

No, generally speaking, narcisists were brought up with too much sense of power, and with parents who overindulged them. The problem for narcisists comes with maintaining this elevated idea of themselves in adulthood. They feel entitled to admiration and criticism makes them enraged.

Narcissists will have problems at midlife, but there will have been warning signs (a tendency to manipulate and a lack of empathy to others).

On the other hand, some MLCers seem to show some narcissistic traits only at midlife. We all have some elements of narcissism (self love), but it is balanced with our empathy. At midlife, MLCers go back to focussing on themselves, so egocentric characteristics in general are more apparent (as in teenagers!)

Oedipus complex is about power and attachment to the opposite sex parent. It is regarded as part of normal psycho sexual development, but normally disappears in early childhood.

[agape]

Mermaid, thanks for your answers.

MLCers go back to focussing on themselves, so egocentric characteristics in general are more apparent (as in teenagers!)
Do they come or slip back to this stage in MLC in order to finish the unfinished business? Missed it somehow, delayed adolescence, some traumatic event, i.e. death of a parent, parerental divorce/separation.

Oedipus complex is about power and attachment to the opposite sex parent. It is regarded as part of normal psycho sexual development, but normally disappears in early childhood.
In Oedipus complex to me the stage is arrested and never disappeared. Would some MLCers look for the mather or a father they longed to have, not just statues, but more intimate involvement.