[Mermaid]

What is love?
When we fall in love, there are hormones involved, but also cultural ideas of love that we project onto our loved one. We have an idea of who we want them to be (and who they imagine us to be).
At midlife, we are facing the realities of the lives we have lived, and the people we love and live with. This is problematic for MLCers. Standing for our spouse means we want our spouses back, despite their bad behaviour. Is it because we love them? If we love them, we want the best for THEM even if it is not what we want. This means letting go, supporting, and understanding them.
This is not just a strategy, but a goal. If we are ONLY strategic in whatever we do, we are not being loving, we are avaricious. If we can’t let go, if we beg and plead, it’s because we are listening to OUR needs. We already know that begging is not a good strategy, that letting go, looking after ourselves (loving ourselves) is. What I’m saying is that to truly love someone, we have to want the best for
I am agnostic, but I was brought up Catholic, and I still find a lot in this verse from the Corinthians. “Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.”I suppose this is also the spirit of The Hero’s spouse. What do you think?

[Trustandlove]

You know, I wrote out nearly a whole essay on this topic, as H had brought it up as a topic for discussion.  I condensed it somewhat -- these are what I considered "talking points"....

It follows on from what you write........

Love is a choice of the heart and mind.  The heart for the feeling -- the attraction and the pleasure.  The mind for the intention, because the heart cannot, by itself, overcome all of the obstacles of everyday life, which can be destructive if you don’t also choose to love.   

Love is a choice because there are many times we don't "feel like" loving.    Real love is commitment to an imperfect person.  We are all fallible, and none of us are really particularly better than anyone else.   But that digresses....

It's a choice because we have free will -- we control our own thoughts, feelings and actions, rather than have them controlled by outside forces.  It's not that we don't sometimes question ourselves, but that again is another topic. 

It is a fallacy to think that it is only fate, because it keeps you from examining your own role -- it is expecting somone else to do the work -- the "if you were perfect I would always feel in love" bit.   

So it follows that love is something you create.   We can waste a lot of time looking for the perfect lover, instead of creating the perfect love. 

This isn't about marriage -- marriage isn't love, it's the promise to love.    Those vows are written like that precisely because there are many times we don't feel like it.    That doesn't mean letting oneself be walked over, however. 

That's when the stuff about putting in the time and effort, learning to ask for what you want, being open, allowing yourself to be vulnerable etc. comes in.    Empathy.  But that's a separate topic or two or three.....

[Mermaid]

I have always believed that love is a choice, an attitude of mind rather than just a feeling. We have a role to play in choosing to love, and how to love, as we can choose to accept someone, or not. I also agree that marriage is a promise to love.
However, we don't have completely free will, this is an illusion brought about by the nature of our consciousness. Many of our decisions and and actions appear to be choices, but in reality are made in the unconscious mind which works more on the basis of emotions (through somatic marker mechanisms) than rationality. MLCers behaviour is not rational and controlled precisely because of this. Even when they realise (like my H) that choosing marriage with me would be the most rational decision, their emotions betray them.
What about us? My feelings are to hang on, with the hope that he will come back, and the belief (derived from m unconscious mind) that it could work. Strategically this is not the best option, as chasing chases them away. So my feelings have to be redirected through strategy. Still this is not enough. If I really care for H, I will want the best outcome for him, even if it is not what I want.

[Trustandlove]

That is a very interesting point about free will.  I'm going to think about this a bit more before I write. 

Also the bit about if we really care for our spouses, we will want the best outcome for them....  I know there is a way to tie all of this together. 

This is an excellent point for discussion, Mermaid -- I'm glad you started this thread. 

[Still]

That is a very interesting point about free will.  I'm going to think about this a bit more before I write. 

My H said in 2008 when he began to go "off the deep end" that he wasn't sure what was going on with him. I said that he should pray for answers. He told me that he had prayed over and over and that God gave free will. He said that because of this he had urges and desires for another life, free of responsibilities, free to do whatever. He seemed to view free will as more of a curse than a benefit....interesting.

[Mermaid]

And yet we are not free...
One of the most interesting books I've read on the topic is "Strangers to Ourselves" by Timothy Wilson. He reviews a lot of currrent, and older, theories, as well as adding insights from his own research. Fascinating. I read it cover to cover.

[agape]

Apparently we don't have free will. The bible mentions a few that we all know i.e. Pharaoh and the plagues in exodus. Pharaoh hardened his heart for the 6 plagues and God hardened Pharaoh's heart for the last 4.

Then we all know Jonah and the whale and of course apostle Paul and the road to Damascus, just to mention a few.

Also read lots of articles, if you goggle "free will" there is scientific evidence that what we think we have free will it only appears to be.

Mermaid, glad you brought this subject up.

[MarkedandHealed]

Changing someone's free will is entirely different than changing their heart. One is a pull and the other is a conviction.

[Mermaid]

An excellent book on the subject is "Strangers to Ourselves". It's not about midlife, but it can help us understand how our MLCers seem to be in the grip of something other than rational behaviour.

[HeartsBlessing]

The following are my thoughts, and what I've learned throughout my life; they are not intended to influence anyone's beliefs as we each have our own path we follow.

God gave free will to ALL people, as well as freedom of choice that is also related to free will.

We ARE free, regardless of what anyone thinks...we just CHOOSE to do some things and not others; the CHOICES are an important part of free will to do as we CHOOSE to. 

We KNOW there are consequences for our actions, as well as reactions to the choices we make.

We CHOOSE, of our own free will, to serve God, as an example.  He does NOT force us to choose Him; and He does NOT make us love Him...we love Him because He first loved us.

Each person has an array of choices they can make of their own free will, right or wrong...and consequences, good or bad is attached to these choices.

We may BIND ourselves to someone, but, again, that is a CHOICE we made within our free will....we cannot be bound unless, again, we choose to be that way.

We can influence people, in regards to their choices, but we cannot change someone's free will..that is theirs alone.

God can bring about circumstances to influence us, but He will NOT tamper with Free Will that is given to ALL Men.  When God places something in the heart, the mind will usually follow, as in the example of Pharoah....He did this to show His Glory to the Children of Israel, as well as to Pharoah.

That goes back to His ways and thoughts not being ours, as some of this is beyond our understanding, and no matter how we analyze it, we will never see the ENTIRE reason for what He does or allows to happen.

People get trapped within circumstances, because they allow it to happen, lacking the understanding needed to extract themselves out of trouble...fear compounds things, and they forget they have choices they can make to help them out of a situation.

I am a free agent, but I cannot say God did NOT influence me many times during my life..yet, He did NOT MAKE me do ANYTHING..the choices, such as they were, were MINE.

I CHOOSE to serve Him, but I'm NOT BOUND to Him....I made a choice of my own free will.  To do otherwise, will buy me some serious consequences, and I'm well aware of that;  but still, I KNOW I'm free; I always have a CHOICE to make in regards to myself, and no one else.

You have to SEE the freedom, in order to BELIEVE in the freedom...and if you don't see it, you won't believe that you are free to do what you know you need to do and make choices that will help you in that effort...yet, not seeing that freedom of choice, can cause you to continue to feel "trapped" or "bound".

These are MY beliefs, in regards to Free Will and Choices being linked together after a fashion.

You see, even JESUS had a choice, and He chose to die on the cross...He had the same free will, and yet, chose His Father's will toward a way for the greater good....and it affected ALL of us as human beings.

When we make choices, these choices will affect people around us; just like the "ripple affect" that comes from dropping a stone into the water.

Maybe, the loss of freedom spoken of is when you stop to consider the AFFECT of your choices on someone that you care about/love.

And the consequences that would come about if you did certain things, made certain choices...yet, you are free to do whatever you wish.

On the other hand, we KNOW what is right or wrong, and it has been said the exercise of boundaries is selfishness, but there is a lesson, even in that....of selfcare.

In our marriage, for an example of free will; I KNEW my husband could have walked away at ANY time, and I knew I would have to let him go, as I could NOT make him stay.  The interesting thing was this works BOTH ways; as each person has that same power, and it was very liberating for me to realize that I was there because I WANTED to be there, not because I HAD to.....I don't have to DO anything I don't want to do, and neither does he.  What got interesting was when he discovered that I had found my freedom, and he did NOT like that at all...he wanted ALL the power, and found he didn't have ANY over me.

Interesting thread.