[Trustandlove]

Hi, all,


I've been reading the coaching archives, where RCR says about accepting that the MLCer will do unacceptable things.  Kind of like a teenager.  But that there are/should be consequences to that behaviour.

RCR says that if your teen was doing whatever teens do that is unacceptable, would you allow it?  Of course not.  You ground them or whatever.  But how do you "not allow" things like this?  OK, they do things without our permission, but what are the consequences?   

Or rather, what are the consequences that he might care about? 

Or am I missing something? 

I'm struggling with this.  I'm not a newbie, but  I'm now dealing with an issue that I haven't had to deal with in the 4 years since BD, namely that this time he's saying that the current OW is "something special", using the phrase "OW and I" a lot,  -- all the usual infatuation speak.  Saying that all the others were just to pass the time, basically.  That he hadn't wanted to introduce kids to them (well, he did one....), but that this time it is different. 

I'm trying to put this as concisely as I can.  Basically I said it wasn't appropriate to involve kids in adult matters;  he is doing it anyway, partly with "disneyland" type treats that of course kids want to have. 

I can't and won't tell kids that they can't go, they don't want to rock the boat (and besides, why turn down such fun?).  Also, he doesn't tell them in advance what they are going to do, just says "we'll figure it out", and then comes up with something "cool".  My kids aren't the kind to say things to him; they did in the beginning but now just say that he doesn't listen, and anyway, they want their dad pretty much however they can get him. 

I can't get nasty; I leaned into b!tc# mode for that one talk (which I think was appropriate then) but can't do it again now. 

When he comes to the house to see them I'm pleasant, but distant; he is polite, checks with me about times but nothing else.   

I know I can't stop him doing what he does -- are there any consequences of the type RCR talks about (her post to baysw is particularly good) that I could and should be using?   

I did tell him once that I couldn't tell him what to do, but that I could remove myself from a situation where I wasn't respected.  But how do I do that? 

Not be here when he comes?  That seems to just give him even more carte blanche. 

I feel particularly vulnerable because of children.  They are early teens, but very young for their ages.  (and yes, I feel like I'm losing all round....)   I want to stick up for them and teach them my values, but neither do I want to deny them their dad. 

I did tell him that they wanted him on his own but this time he made a point of not doing that.  And as D "didn't mind" (read:  didn't want to rock the boat) it makes a bit of a mockery of it all. 

I feel in a conundrum here.  Yes, I do know I am hurt, which is why I'm writing.  Don't want to do anything knee jerk. 

Of course I am hoping that this will burn out.  But children then start liking all the "cool" stuff and it gets harder.... 

Help? 

[StandandDeliver]

T&L

My children are much younger than yours but have had H's OW pushed on them from very near the beginning. I was upset, worried, angry, but followed some advice on here.

At first the kids had a couple of "great" weekends with H and OW. It rapidly went down hill and my H was surprised that the happy family fantasies were not turning out quite how he planned. Now my children (S in particular) behave a bit better when at their Dad's but in all honesty are relieved when they get home to me. H and OW can't handle the kids and frequently make sure that either his parents or her mother are available to help out.

As far as I am concerned, H's R with his kids is his problem (as long as the kids are not being neglected or abused). If OW works out, then at least they don't hate her, but if it doesn't I truly believe that the dynamic whereby she and he obviously cannot deal with the children will be part of their downfall.

I would encourage the kids R with their Dad, I would never talk about OW unless the kids bring it up - don't bad mouth her and just be glad that if they get along your children are at least not in a situation that they can't bear. I promise you, the fact that they are not her children will become a problem, all they have to do is misbehave, act ungrateful (lets face it kids do that), be difficult, get a vomiting sickness - these things will ruin the fantasy, I promise. H wants the children to meet OW and fall "in love" with her. That is unlikely to happen. They will act great at first, but once they are used to her their guard will come down and they will test her - she will be found wanting. My kids have been visiting OW for 5 mths now. Between visits they talk about their Dad, but they barely mention her. She is irrelevant to their life - they accept her existance so that they can see their Dad, they do NOT see her as another or alternative mother!!!!

[OldPilot]

I would not want to be betting on your H relationship with OW  #5.
He does not seem to have a good track record.
Why will this R succeed when none of the others have?
This OW  can't be that wonderful, she is  going out with a married man.
That in itself is flawed.

My guess is that it won't, the question is that based on his track record he will move on to OW #6.
I guess the real question is why is he not looking at himself as the problem?

So I think that is the portion of this that you need to look at.
He is stuck in this cycle and breaking it will keep getting harder and harder.

As far as the consequences, IDK, what can you control as far as a boundary goes?
Usually it is only something about YOU.
Is there anything that YOU can change?

[Trustandlove]

Thanks for the responses.

S&D, my kids are older, there is no danger of "surrogate mother".  It's more like my kids are accessories to his lovely life.  They can behave beautifully and discuss what is in the papers over breakfast at a trendy restaurant, that kind of thing.

I've never badmouthed anyone to the kids, certainly not their father (although they have a hard time reconciling the fact that they know having an OW while married is wrong with the fact that their dad is doing it....) and not any OW.  I don't ask about her, either. 

OP, I guess that is why I put this up there.  I'm not sure what more about me I can change; I've certainly had lots of practice.    I keep thinking about it; nothing other than "just let it happen" i.e. shut up.  comes to me. 

As to this one; well, it may last longer because she is local, therefore more accessible. But in reality that doesn't mean a thing.   I don't know her situation and therefore have no idea what her demands might be. 

As to his cycle....  I don't know if there is anything I can do to help break it; I've always been told that his cycling isn't mine to break.  I've certainly thrown truth darts about it, about his grasping for the holy grail as well.  Will any one go in?  Maybe only if someone else says it.  I may try one of his old friends again, if I get a chance to sit down quietly.  But I know to be cautious there. 

Why is he not looking at himself?  Hard to say.  RCR says to look at why he remains unwilling to reconcile.  What is it about me?  I guess he still sees me as the same as years ago; if that's the case then it's just up to me to be consistent in my changes.  But right now it seems that anything I say or do just goes nowhere.  Just like in early MLC. 

Oh, well, it was worth a try....

[StandandDeliver]

T&L - certainly was not trying to imply that you had or would badmouth her or anyone! More of a reflection of something that I have found very hard - if I am honest the compulsion to tell the kids EXACTLY what I think of her has been there at times - I have had to work hard to make sure I don't do it, for their sake.

What is it about me?  I guess he still sees me as the same as years ago; if that's the case then it's just up to me to be consistent in my changes.  But right now it seems that anything I say or do just goes nowhere.  Just like in early MLC. 

The reasons he won't reconcile are possibly not about you at all! Is he still in replay - if so it is likely that he is still wanting to believe you are the problem no matter what you have changed?

You have made many changes and worked on you, but are you changing and working in order to get him back or in order to truly let him go?  As you know, he may not come back and that will be his loss, are you in a place where you feel you could accept that eventuality, even if you didn't like it? Could you let him go and live without him? Because the changes you make HAVE to be about you, looking after your own emotional needs and building your strength and independance.   

This whole MLC thing is just horrible, it takes so long and has no guarantees, but you need to keep believing that this is not about you - if he doesn't come back it is because he is incapable of valuing himself, so there is no way he can truly value other people (including any and all OW's). It is still about what he gets, not what he gives...

[OldPilot]

This is a post from HB that I think fits right in with this discussion.

I do believe that the MLCer is attracted to strength.  I wonder about the MLCer who goes on from OW to OW to OW......Does he look back to the LBS - see a "victim" - and run towards another OW "relationship?"  I don't know.

Limitless, it's a combination of both factors; the weakness of the MLC'er; and the UNwillingness of the LBS to take their half of the responsibility; and begin the work on themselves.  The MLC'er is weak; but if the LBS is also weak, that continues to feed the MLC'er's justifications for what they are doing; but it is ALSO the weakness of the MLC'er that drives them to continue floundering in temptation; it takes strength to overcome; and if the MLC'er has NO incentive; i.e, the LBS is still exhibiting an attitude of martyrdom; the crying and begging, and is still grabbing on to the MLC'er...the rebellion can continue.

One of the key things I recall my husband saying when he broke withdrawal, and recommitted to the marriage; he had perceived I would accept his disrespect, and he treated me any old way; because I ALLOWED it from him; AND I was crying, begging, miserable and angry; to say the least, but when my attitude changed, improved, and I, in effect, turned my back on him; and stopped the whole attitude of anger, misery, victimization; etc....he started thinking that if he didn't get himself together, he would LOSE me....that's not to say he didn't think of walking away himself, he did; but my actions; fairly early(within three months after bomb); made all the difference...although, I could NOT see it in him at the time he was speaking of...I never saw it; I just learned to begin taking care of myself; after making my feelings clear to him; and no response from him....it was then I stepped out on faith..and it was hard...

Like I have always said, they DO remember HOW you treat them within the tunnel; and I really believe that if the LBS doesn't "get it" and quickly; it sets the couple up for a permanent break; the window of time may be a narrow one; I know it was for me.  That is why it's SO important to continue to advocate the journey of the LBS; the sooner they "get it" the sooner the MLC'er gets to see the starting results, regardless of where they are within the tunnel when the growing process starts.

I have seen the other board tell LBS' that change is NOT necessary, they are WRONG for that; very wrong...there is something learned that leads to change; and change is going to come, regardless; so you might as grow through it....I mean, the alternative  always is; you DON'T have to change; but the chance that you may come through with your marriage lessens, and if you're that fortunate, the chance will INCREASE in favor of recurring cycles of crisis; until it is ALL navigated by BOTH people.

And this is NOT something I have come up with on my own; I've seen both sides of the coin, more than once..and change does NEED to occur; one will recycle the lessons if it doesn't occur in some form within.

I don't have a lot of time this a.m., but I wanted to address this question....the LBS/MLC'er's journey is LINKED in a very strange way...it's the SAME journey; but the two people are on two DIFFERENT paths.

The more quickly, the LBS regains their strength; it can more quickly, INFLUENCE the MLC'er to turn around and begin returning...and this is not because the LBS changes to "trick" the MLC'er; it is mainly because the MLC'er  clearly RECOGNIZES weakness or strength(they DO have a radar for these things) within the LBS..and because the MLC'er DESPISES ANY weakness within the LBS; any weakness shown can send them running that much faster AWAY from the LBS.  This is because weakness is MIRRORED toward the MLC'er; and they can't take that kind of pressure; plus the fact that no one is ever drawn by anger, and misery.  Food for thought.

Also, in my opinion, unless, the MLC'er is just TOO weak to fight their demons/temptation; or the LBS HAS done something to cause the situation to escalate to the point of "no return,", I sincerely believe marriages CAN survive the MLC...but it takes a lot of work, and the willingness to back down at times; understanding the backing down, and letting go is necessary in the short term to attain the longer term goal of navigating the marriage to safer waters.

To be sure people should be held accountable for what they do; and the MLC'er would be NO exception; but it is all about TIMING; and the right time comes when the LBS KNOWS the MLC'er's mind is no longer clouded as deeply as it was; and I really do believe the LBS does know when the time is right; and I also believe the biggest sign; and most ALL LBS' get it; is when the MLC'er wants to just forget it all happened; and go forward AS IF it never happened.

I mean, you still have to let go, let God; but it is in a different aspect; at this point in time, you KNOW they are AWARE more fully of what they've done wrong...and when the question is asked, you stand your ground and flat refuse.

But until then, patience, and perseverance is the order of the day.

You know even though, I put into action that necessary accountability; I STILL had to learn that it was STILL up to him; he could have decided at ANY time to walk away; the fact that he didn't walk away, earned my respect; because he stayed in there WITH me; and dealt with ME; and what he had done in the way of disrespect toward me....he CHOSE ME; just as I CHOSE him; but it was also a process of learning that people do NOT have to accept limits; and it involves a PERMANENT opening of the cage door for the MLC'er, but ALSO KEEPING the power you have taken back...never giving it away, ever again.

Even unto this day; my husband is FREE to walk at any time; but then so am I; knowing I have that kind of power within myself; makes it easier to just stay with him; because I could do a whole lot worse.

It was a LONG road to get to where I am; but it was worth every step.

[Synicca]

I like this OP.

I am wondering about bounderies and 180's myself right now..

It's hard now that I feel I have hit a wall.

I remember being told that somewhere at BD, when H tells the LBS he doesnt love her anymore
and spews his "reasons" that in there is truth.

I listened to what my H told me...and there was truth to a couple things ie: not sleeping in same bed, not going places
with him, not havng a job

This is where I get problems..I have gone more places with him since Ow went back to NY. I dont refuse
an invite. ( want him to see I will go with him )

Sleeping in same bed? Well, he wont do that right now, because of Ow...I'm worried that he will feel
like nothing has changed in that area, because I am sleeping on the couch like I was before?
( I fear he see's it like before) make sense?

as for a job? I am looking into it after I get my health issues worked out. ugh

I dont know what else to do here?

[Trustandlove]

Yes, OP, that is the discussion.

I have addressed the "valid complaints", as well as made a number of other changes -- all for me.  I am a lot happier in myself, I do actually feel strong.  I know they are attracted to strength.

I have more than looked within, and it's not just to get him back.  I've done some pretty big work on depression, anxiety, etc.,  Even though I know I still do get anxious it's NOTHING like it used to be.  And more. 

So, like I said somewhere, it's about being consistent with the changes. 

Gotta run....

[LisaLives]

I can't help but question the issue of being attracted to strength.  My H told me he was leaving because I am too strong and I don't "need" him, but she does.  I have always been strong, and I have gotten stronger since BD.  How can he in his muddled puny mind be attracted to strength when he is being a wimp?  Do you mean when they start to come out of the tunnel they look for strength?  OW is a sniveling little mass of insecurity, you can see it in her face, if he is attracted to strength, she isn't it...  Just wondering...

[StandandDeliver]

Lisa,

I think that as they come out of the tunnel they look for someone strong - my H also said he was leaving because he knew I'd be ok, but OW needed him (this is while I have been on the floor sobbing my guts out???)

The truth is they are addicted to OW and feeling like a knight in shining armour to her. I have no idea how he behaves around her, but if it is as pathetic as he sometimes is around me then OW and I have VERY different ideas about what a knight in shining armour is!


Also, OW is weak in one sense (needy, clingy etc) but unbelievably controlling and I have seen my H submit to her controlling in a whiny puny little boy voice that I do not even recognise. I wonder if, as they come out of the tunnel, they need to see that the LBS is strong and independant and not controlling because they start to see the (tremendous) flaws and failings in the OP?