[OldPilot]

Ladybird
Nope, it sounds like MLC to me.

There is always HOPE, as long as you can keep that in your heart.
It does not come from him but from YOU.

Remember that MLC is counter intuitive so everything is not always as it seems.
Things have to get bad before they get better and there is always more going on behind the scenes.

Sorry to say that what your husband is saying is what almost all MLC'er say, they never have any love for the LBS.
That all comes later after the crisis is over.

Keep studying about MLC so you understand what you are dealing with.

[ladybird]

DGU and OP-thank you for your replies!  I needed to hear them!   I often feel that H has to force himself to see me so he can see our S and am wondering if I am dealing with a Vanisher who is feeling forced to boomerang because of our S?   Another reason I think H could be a Vanisher is that he lives 30 miles away in a different small town south of us where he shares a house with a guy from work who recently went through a D.  That guy is selling his house and transferring and my H recently went to look at a place to rent in another small town to the west of us that is about 20 miles away.  We live in a college town and there are tons of places that H can rent, yet he is choosing to live far away and commute.  Does this sound like Vanisher behavior?  Or just typical MLC?

[HeartsBlessing]

Ladybird,

But I have a question.  How can there be any hope if my H has not shown me or verbalized any affection or love in months and months on end?  In the 16 months since my H first told me he wanted to leave, he has consistently told me that he doesn't love me and doesn't want to be with me.  He only wavered once by agreeing to go to MC last August but since then he has not shown me affection and has not wavered in his decision.   This is the main reason why I wonder if I am dealing with MLC or not.   My H displays all the other signs and symptoms of MLC like being unreliable etc.  But even though my S and I see my H 3 to 4 times a week, my H is consistently adamant about not wanting to be with me.   This is what confuses me and makes me feel like my sitch is different than others here and that I may not be dealing with MLC at all.

Sweetie, OP and DGU, are entirely CORRECT; and I see the same thing they see; you're definitely seeing the hallmarks of MLC...I saw these same things myself, as my husband insisted that his feelings had changed for me, that he felt NOTHING for me; and believe it or not, I didn't get the "I love you, but am not in love with you" speech.  I got NOTHING but heartache and pain from that man as he tried every way he could to remove me from his heart and mind...his love was buried so deep within that even he couldn't reach it.

He stood way back from me, rejected me, wouldn't tell me anything in the way of feelings for me, but made sure I knew he couldn't stand me in his looks and actions...and in the state of mind he was in...he DIDN'T have one iota of feeling for me, I KNEW he didn't love me during that time; that was for sure.

Like you, I often questioned if he was really done with me, and I just couldn't see it, but up would come an intervention with a small explanation, just enough to keep me on the path I was supposed to be on.....but I could NOT see what was going on within my husband, although outwardly, it looked like it was over..but then, the question remained, WHY  does he STILL continue to come home, if he truly does NOT love me? 

I would see him do something else that was evident that he didn't love me; and sometimes confused reigned for a time within me, as I would get sucked in again, trying to figure this aspect out..and the Lord would intervene again, reminding me that not everything is as it seems in MLC.

Yes, it ALL hurt, but I couldn't do one thing about it, except let go, and let God handle my husband...and the Lord was the one who turned my husband around, and this took time; simply because I did this most difficult thing....I let him go completely into the hands of the Lord, recognizing that I could not fix anyone but myself.

During MLC their hearts and minds are turned away from the LBS; but you just need to understand this isn't you, it's THEM, and THEIR problem; don't make it yours.

Keep your husband in prayer, but don't push him to tell you anything, and simply learn take him with a grain of salt when he tries to convince you on his own that he feels nothing for you...validate him by saying "I understand" then say nothing else, nor even let him see any kind of reaction in you, don't even respond to further questions designed to "bait" you into feeding his justifications even further....just let him go, and let God handle him, while you learn to handle yourself.

I hope this helps.

[ladybird]

Ladybird,


Keep your husband in prayer, but don't push him to tell you anything, and simply learn take him with a grain of salt when he tries to convince you on his own that he feels nothing for you...validate him by saying "I understand" then say nothing else, nor even let him see any kind of reaction in you, don't even respond to further questions designed to "bait" you into feeding his justifications even further....just let him go, and let God handle him, while you learn to handle yourself.

I hope this helps.

Thank you so much HB!  Your reply helps more than you know! 
I think saying "I understand" is the perfect reply.  I have a tough time keeping my feelings bottled up and H knows this, so no doubt he is baiting me to get a reaction.  He wants to justify his behavior while at the same time feeding his ego to know I still care.   I should change tactics. Do you think going NC would improve my sitch?

[HeartsBlessing]

Hello Ladybird,

Do you think going NC would improve my sitch?

The only time, IMHO, you really need to use NC is to keep yourself from going deeper into emotional angst, in order to try to regain your balance, and begin to heal emotionally;  and it's often used just after a divorce, or even during the process of a divorce that the MLC'er has brought about  themselves to more or less show them the consequences of their actions; at least in the beginning of the separate lives that begin to follow just after the legal union is dissolved.....believe it or not, most MLC'ers who get a divorce don't really expect a change in circumstances; and boy, do they get a rude awakening in response to what THEY have done, when this change happens.

Doesn't mean the LBS can't contact them at all...but for every action there is a reaction, and for every action there is a consequence; and once you go forward you can't go backward.

NC is NOT really supposed to try and get a change in the situation, as I suspect you're trying to figure out how to bring about change...and all this could do is backfire on you, reinforcing his justification for the reason he doesn't feel anything for you.

That's what I think.

It is enough to work on yourself, and bring about change in you, don't worry about him, or what he thinks.

I'd have to read your situation to know more, but this comes off the top of my own head.

I didn't go "NC" on my husband at all; I continued to deal with him, but I changed the way I dealt with him, and if I'd gone "NC" I couldn't have...oh, and by the way NC CAN be used in a situation where the MLC'er is still at home...in fact it can be used in any situational aspect of MLC, if needed; and used sparingly.

Will read your situation to see what I see.

[ladybird]

Hello Ladybird,

Do you think going NC would improve my sitch?

The only time, IMHO, you really need to use NC is to keep yourself from going deeper into emotional angst, in order to try to regain your balance, and begin to heal emotionally;  and it's often used just after a divorce, or even during the process of a divorce that the MLC'er has brought about  themselves to more or less show them the consequences of their actions; at least in the beginning of the separate lives that begin to follow just after the legal union is dissolved.....believe it or not, most MLC'ers who get a divorce don't really expect a change in circumstances; and boy, do they get a rude awakening in response to what THEY have done, when this change happens.

Doesn't mean the LBS can't contact them at all...but for every action there is a reaction, and for every action there is a consequence; and once you go forward you can't go backward.

NC is NOT really supposed to try and get a change in the situation, as I suspect you're trying to figure out how to bring about change...and all this could do is backfire on you, reinforcing his justification for the reason he doesn't feel anything for you.


Will read your situation to see what I see.

Thanks again HB!  Well, our D may come sooner than I expect it to.  Yesterday my H told me that he had made an appt to file the DIY divorce paperwork.  He can file it and pay the fee later.  I was very upset when I heard this from him and calmly asked him what was the hurry?  He said he didn't know and sort of shrugged his shoulders and said he hasn't done anything...yet.   He said he was going to be scre*ed over financially by me.  A lot of his anger towards me is about money and how much money and time he has wasted on me and our life together.  He seems very unhappy working so much and I don't think he likes his job much and feels burnt out by it but won't admit it.  He has told me before that he wants the divorce for "closure".  He also said yesterday that he wants to get away from me and that he wants his freedom.  So you can see why I feel so little hope.  I am to blame for everything which is why I think he may be happier if I did go NC.  Perhaps that way he would see that his problems are NOT because of me after all.  But again I don't know.

[Dontgiveup]

"NC is NOT really supposed to try and get a change in the situation"

Absolutely true.....otherwise you are using no contact to manipulate.

"it's often used just after a divorce, or even during the process of a divorce that the MLC'er has brought about  themselves to more or less show them the consequences of their actions; at least in the beginning of the separate lives that begin to follow just after the legal union is dissolved.....believe it or not, most MLC'ers who get a divorce don't really expect a change in circumstances; and boy, do they get a rude awakening in response to what THEY have done, when this change happens."

I can give two very real stories on this.  I did not go no contact with my wife during the divorce process.  In fact, during the divorce process, my wife cycled a lot and there was plenty of contact.....talked more than once about withdrawing the divorce, we spent time together, went to marriage counseling etc.  The article Progress: Backward, Forward, Limbo, describes exactly what happened......the cycling was extreme, one time in particular in about a 15 hour time frame.

After the divorce, I still didn't go no contact......partly because we still shared some responsibilities with assets.  I did, however COMPLETELY stop pursuing.  Funny thing was, once the divorce was final, she contacted me nearly every day for a week or so.  And since the divorce has been final, contact has also been consistent.

I actually do think the MLCer expects to feel different after a divorce.  And it takes a long time to realize they don't.  It's part of the avoidance that is Replay.

Of course, there's also the story of my friend.  Lots of similarities.  He did request that his ex-wife not contact him after she had been married to other man for 6 months or so......but 6 months later, she did contact my friend.....and let him know the marriage to other man was not good......even though she told everyone else it was going great.....and of course she did divorce other man.

So neither me nor my friend went no contact during or after our divorces.  In both cases, though, we stopped pursuing.  My experience is that divorce will not affect the fact that MLC is a process.

[HeartsBlessing]

DGU,

Not trying to "fix" you here; but there's also been instances where the MLC'er has gotten a divorce and expected NO change in the status quo, some expect that the LBS will simply continue as before; taking abuse, giving up money, and other things, when honestly, once the divorce that's initiated by a typical MLC'er that demands it, proceeds with it, and it's finished,  the "right" the MLC'er once had to the LBS is no longer available in that aspect, until such a time when they begin to grow up within themselves; more firm boundaries had to be laid for the MLC'er by the LBS......and in those instances NC was used to show the MLC'er change THE MLC'ER had initiated, the literal consequences of their actions...generally when one divorces there is NO responsibility on the part of the LBS to contact the MLC'er,  if they don't choose to, while the typical MLC'er thinks there should be NO change, and they can still do what they want, and they ASSUME, most WRONGLY, nothing will change, when a LIFE CHANGING event HAS indeed place; regardless of why it's been done.

Sometimes the NC post-divorce is enough to cause the MLC'er to realize they've made the biggest mistake of their life, sometimes it takes longer for them to also realize the pain they were trying to rid themselves of, is NOT gone.  And some, sadly, NEVER see it, spending their lives in misery and heartache....especially after they "wake up" to what they've done and all they've lost.

Your wife is fortunate, indeed, that you're willing to stick with her; there are not many men who would do that or be as willing to stand to see what happens in the future. 

Like the crisis itself, anything and everything can happen once a divorce initiated and completed by the MLC'er is finished.

I didn't and don't ever wish for you to think that I thought(not that what I think matters, but here it is, ) that what you did in your situation was wrong, I've never thought that of you in regards to how you handled your situation post divorce.....you knew your situation well, and I know each situation is different, and each one requires different handling, as per what the LBS knows of their MLC spouse.

Just wanted to make that clear to you; you're doing the best you can with the hand you've been dealt, and you are doing quite well in spite of circumstances...I've had no advice come for you..but that doesn't mean you're not going the right way as per your situation, you've learned a great deal, and learning is always better than getting stuck...and you've not done that.

You're moving forward in your own knowledge and wisdom, doing quite well in searching out links, and other helpful articles for the posters.

Believe me when I say you're helping more than you realize.   It's the "unsung" veterans that often get overlooked...and also believe me when I say from my point of view, you are NOT overlooked at all, especially by me and so many others....even if I don't say anything much your way, I DO see the helpfulness of your posts, and like so many others here that have come such a long way, you don't "need" backing up...you do that very well on your own.

Just a few words of encouragement.

Blessings to you, my friend,
HB

[HeartsBlessing]

Ladybird,

I posted directly on your thread, and I know it's quite a long post, but it's there in response to what I saw on your thread....we really do need to stop hijacking this one, LOL!!

[Affaircare]

All - I must be dense. I've been trying to understand what this means. Does it mean everything that they say is false? I know h believes and says he is telling the truth and all the time.

Are you also saying we should "believe" 50% of what they do is...what? Does that mean when he moves out and says he isn't coming back. Does that mean "never" isn't never but instead I "right now never" want or will come back?

Can someone give me a concrete example or two or more of "nothing of what they say" and "50% of what they do"? I seem not to be able to wrap my head around this thought.

Sure I'd be happy to help you with this concept!!     

"Believe nothing of what they say..." means that when a person is in MLC and/or having an affair, that they will go into what is called "Monster Mode" here on this website and say things that are so incredibly cruel and vicious that it leaves you ... well SPEECHLESS!  Plus you have known them for years or decades and you know for a fact that is not their character.  So when they say those mean, horrible, heartless things, we say "believe nothing of what they say..." because what comes out of their mouth is justification for what they know is wrong.  They'll rewrite history--deny what is right in front of their face--lie while looking you in the eyes.  And we say "believe nothing of what they say..." because you know it's not true and so do we...and on some level so do they.  Just let it roll off like wind that's passing you by.

(Now I've been disloyal so I know that there is also some very small morsel of truth in what they say, but it's like a kernel in a big hay pile.)   

"Believe only 50% of what they do..." means that when a person is in MLC and/or having an affair, that they are struggling with something or looking for something so a lot of what they actually DO isn't really them either.  For example, they'll dress like a teenager when they're 50.  Or listen to heavy metal when they were into Pat Boone before.  They'll start "partying" or going out drinking etc. when they were a good dad or good mom before.  They'll move out to try to "get space" to "try to find happiness" etc. when they are pushing away those who love them and who would probably make them feel happier!! 

So when they threaten to move out or divorce--just let it roll off like wind that's passing you by.  When they actually DO move out or file--believe about half of it because they probably don't mean to utterly leave your life.  They're just trying to get all the benefits of being married (like security and a life partner and sex) without any of the responsibility...or trying to intimidate you into doing something their way by filing.  If they REALLY meant it, they would pack, move, file and you'd never hear from them again because they were DONE (and even THOSE folks who disappear often come back). 

Finally for some examples. 

Believe nothing of what they say--do not believe it when they say:
"I never loved you."  "I don't love you the way a spouse should." "You have never loved me."  "You always screamed at me!" "You were (insert excuse here such as too tall, too short, too heavy, too thin, etc.)"  "Who would WANT to stay married to you?" "I wanted to divorce you LONG before I met him/her! They have nothing to do with it!"  "We are just friends!" (Can you see how really none of these are true?  Now they may have felt lonely or unloved due to some behavior--and that's the kernel of truth I was talking about.  But ALL THIS OTHER STUFF is just smoke and mirrors to distract you and them from looking at their actions and taking personal responsibility for their own choices.)  NOTE: Any "threats" to do something like move out or divorce go up here because it's just talk.

Believe 50% of what they do--do not believe it about half the time when they:
Claim to be working late.  Put a password on their PC or cell for "privacy." Dye their hair--lose weight--wear leather--and start liking new music all at the same time.  Need to go to their car to answer their cell phone.  Go out to get milk...for two hours.  Tell you they are just hanging out with their friends.  Start to pack.  Search on the computer for apartments.  Open a separate banking account.  When they get a new cell phone "from work."  Promise to pay anything (such as child support, 1/2 the mortgage, etc.).  Promise it's a "temporary separation" so they can "think." 

I believe you get the idea now...right?