[kaffe diem]

I can imagine some topics have covered this although clearly on this site, most threads are focused on Mid Life Crisis.

When I go through the "signs of MLC" with my W in focus, I truly can place a check beside all 30 "signs".  Yet here's the thing.  10 years ago when I M my W, I could probably have checked at least 20 of the signs.  Perhaps ALL of them, as I was the OM.

So I thought perhaps we could take the age old question of trying to describe MLC, and see if perhaps we could pinpoint the differences of MLC vs. plain old vanilla WAS.

For example, confusion is often pointed as a primary indicator or alternately described as lack of rational thinking.

My W certainly shows signs of confusion or irrational thinking, and yet much of her thoughts or things that she verbalizes regarding our M and it's break down, certainly APPEAR rational.  In the sense that, in the mind of the WAS, the issues ARE rational.  In the way that if one re-writes history to suit their perspective, things are rational.

For example, my W indicates that I never financially provided to the family.

Her statement is (close to) fact.  I was the SAHD.  We both agreed to that.  In the mean time, I continued to operate a home based consultancy in which I earned money to pay bills and buy food, etc.  Not a significant amount of money, but certainly I provided.

So, my W could simply remove the "never" from that statement and indicate that I did not provide significantly to the financial well being of our family.

Certainly "rational".

Re-writing history, my W will "rationally" indicate that much of the consulting I did was "off hours" conducted in the evenings and weekends, which cut into family time.

Therefore, this "rational" train of thought (and it IS correct; and due to the fact that I conducted business when others were home from their employement) is that I abandoned the family.  And that I only involved myself in family engagements or the kids or my W when it was "convenient" for me.  Or when my W "nagged" me.

Whereas the truth from where I sit is, my W began to set stringent boundaries on when I could and could not conduct business as well as when clients could and could not contact me.

By way of this circular logic (as well as the slumped economy), my earnings dropped very significantly.  Which puts my W's rational comment that I did not significantly contribute financially to the family, as a fact.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What I'm getting to here is, at what point or from what perspective do we see someone like my W as rational and clear minded?

Does my W's failure to see the circular logic as being self fulfilling prophecy mean that she is confused and therefore her thought process and behaviours are MLC?

What makes a WAS a WAS and how is that different than an MLCer?  Examples would probably help...

[Anjae]

For example, my W indicates that I never financially provided to the family.

Her statement is (close to) fact.  I was the SAHD.  We both agreed to that.  In the mean time, I continued to operate a home based consultancy in which I earned money to pay bills and buy food, etc.  Not a significant amount of money, but certainly I provided.

Are you married to my husband, kaffe? He has the same statment of how I never provided to the family. I also was one that stayed home and runned the projects we both created, plus having a bunch of freelancer work.

As fot the difference between, MLCer an AWS, the blame and the history rewriting are some of the differences. My ouncle left my aunt, there was another woman, but ne never blamed my aunt, never rewrote history, never made false claims about my aunt, never cut her the money she was due, etc.

Could you please be so kind to explain why you were the OM when you married your wife? Why were you the OM and how dif you felt being the OM?

[StillStanding]

I think most of the MLC articles on here do a good job of explaining what people go through in a Midlife Crisis.

To me, the biggest differentiator of an MLCing spouse vs. a WAS spouse would be the personality changes and depression. MLCers want to reinvent themselves, or recapture a fading youth.

It's one thing to feel unfulfilled in a relationship; it's another to change how you dress, or develop a whole new social life, or dive into addictive behaviors. Also, people who are just in an unhappy relationship don't run away from their family and friends, or quit their job.

[kaffe diem]

Are you married to my husband, kaffe?

LOL Anne!  I certainly hope not! 

As fot the difference between, MLCer an AWS, the blame and the history rewriting are some of the differences. My ouncle left my aunt, there was another woman, but ne never blamed my aunt, never rewrote history, never made false claims about my aunt, never cut her the money she was due, etc.

OK, I want to be clear that I both am looking for some rather concrete differences (which may not ever come out of this thread) and also playing a bit of devil's advocate in a sense, for constructive discourse...

Things like blaming, don't we all forget ourselves and our responsibilities from time to time and blame others for things that don't quite go as expected in our lives...  like blaming the (unexpected) train crossing or heavy traffic for being late.  Our spouse was in charge of paying the cable bill and forgot so cable got cut off.  We blame our spouse but we don't divorce over it.  But a WAS might use that as one reason why they are choosing to go in a new direction without the spouse.  Does that make them MLC?

Isn't re-writing history really just a matter of perspective?  (Hypothetically)  I thought we had a fantastic time in Disneyland because I stayed in the hotel and enjoyed the on site entertainment, but my W thought it was a terrible time because she decided to go out and visit some points of interest and it was raining and some of the locations were closed and I didn't go with her (because it was raining and off season so figured going out would be boring and unfulfilling).

As suggested in the first post, it appears to the LBS that the MLCer is rewriting history, yet in their mind, their perspective...  THEIR history...  is correct...

Could you please be so kind to explain why you were the OM when you married your wife? Why were you the OM and how dif you felt being the OM?

My W was in a 7 year R prior to me meeting her.  At the time, she decided to leave the R because her BF was both physically and verbally abusive.  I (as a "friend") became involved through other friends to help her in the transition.  I was not initially attracted to her but over time and prior to her actually leaving her BF, we began an A.  The "excuse" was that he was abusive and therefore she (and how I figured this was OK by my moral standards, IDK) was justified.  Yet I was "hidden" as any type of romantic R from everyone, including her family, except for a select few "close" friends, until the BF was removed from her home and handed a restraining order.  Then our R started becoming more "open".

I honestly didn't see myself as an OM in a direct sense, although the "hidden" R did strike me a bit odd.  But it seemed appropriate so that her BF would not find out and become further abusive towards her and also to hide the fact that we were all working to safely remove her and D13 from the dangerous environment.

I can see how her current OM probably has no idea that he is really an OM and my W is starting to integrate him into her families social gatherings.

[kaffe diem]

I think most of the MLC articles on here do a good job of explaining what people go through in a Midlife Crisis.

To me, the biggest differentiator of an MLCing spouse vs. a WAS spouse would be the personality changes and depression. MLCers want to reinvent themselves, or recapture a fading youth.

It's one thing to feel unfulfilled in a relationship; it's another to change how you dress, or develop a whole new social life, or dive into addictive behaviors. Also, people who are just in an unhappy relationship don't run away from their family and friends, or quit their job.

Yeah, I do get what you're saying, SS...

Just a thought.  I'm pretty sure I'm not in an MLC.  I figured there might be something wrong when my W told me not to go on a weekend outing with her and the kids, prior to bomb drop, as she basically told me I was not welcome to join them and they would not go if I insisted I was going.  And I decided that if there was something wrong, maybe we might consider looking at our M, by way of counseling to try to sort some of this stuff out.  And while I left because I made an assumption that my W might be having an affair, I did not want to end the M and again, this was prior to attempts at counseling.

Anyhow, the point is, I'm pretty sure that I'm not MLC...  but...  By way of GALing...  I am reinventing myself, to some degree.  Got an ear ring...  letting my hair grow out...  will be getting into a fitness program including muscle building (at 44 yrs old; and having no prior desire to do this)...  and I've abandoned a lot of friends because...  well...  apparently they are toxic as many of the "friends" that I am no longer associating with have helped enable my W with her As as well as validating that I was not a good husband...

And I'm considering a major course correction in careers through this...

Oh, and I do suffer from depression...

But...  I have gone through many transitions, unmedicated for the depression, and gone through liminality, et al. in rather positive and constructive ways...  as well as transformations that were likely not otherwise life transition periods...

So again, "normal" people do tend to go through transitions of one sort or another, some quite major, and it may or may not be a mid life transition, nor crisis...

What I'm wondering is, is it not possible that a WAS could also suffer from depression?  Just not be in crisis?  Or make new friends who happen to be younger?  Or decide that wanted to update their wardrobe...?

Maybe it's just a matter of irrelevance, but there sometimes seems to be an acceptance that there is a difference between WAS and MLC.  Even for those who may not believe in MLC, there's a difference between a vanilla WAS and the nutcase WAS...

But with the list of signs of MLC for example, as mentioned my W is certainly an MLC wannabe...  and yet...    she was all those things before the crisis, as far back as 10 years...

What's the likelihood that someone is so long undiagnosed PD or otherwise so resistant to what might be considered life transitions and therefore carries MLC signs over a period of no less than 11 years?

[kaffe diem]

I think the above kinda took me off toping...   

Yes...  there are a lot of great articles that describe a MLC...

so really the main question is...  when is someone NOT MLC...?  What are the signs of vanilla WAS and how are they different than MLC?

[kikki]

Here's a link to Michele W D's explanation:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/a_walkaway_wife.htm

Has your wife done a complete 180 with her personality?  Has she become her 'alien opposite?'
Has she not only abandoned you, but also friends, family, pets, kids?  (sorry, I'm not familiar with your situation) or are those things still firmly in place?

I would think they would be the biggest differences.

Just read back and you could tick off 20 MLC depression symptoms for your W when you married?  You're a brave man

[WarriorPriestess]

This is also a good board for those in a relationship with a depression sufferer:  http://depressionfalloutmessageboard.yuku.com/

There are a lot of similarities, I assume because depression is such a big part of midlife crisis.

[Anjae]

Let me try to get some differences between AWS and MLC, starting with monster. Not the normal anger a person feels at such times. Plus, the mad court cases some of the MLCer come up with. People like my husband that would never dream of being in a court of law. He did not even had a traffic or parking fine!

Also, the change of clothes, starting wearing stuff he as always disliked, hanging around much younger people that drunk too much and took too many drugs, living in rentend rooms in flats croweded with students. All these sort of crazy things.
 
A normal WAS, like my uncle, will not change is way of dressing, job, friends, living habits, will not become monster.

Ear ring? Growing hair? Fitness program including muscle building, at 44 yrs old with no no prior desire to do it before?... kaffe... red alert, red alert!  Maybe you're not really into a crisis, just transition. Or just reacting to your wife crisis, but those things you named are alert signs.

As for the friends that validated your wife affairs and said you were not a good husband I understant you are leaving them behind.

If your wife was all the things in the list ten years ago maybe she has something... or was already in pre-MLC?...

Thank you for your explanation about being the OM. You may be right, your wife other man does not even feels like the OM.

[Mamma Bear]

  Kaffe ,   I would tend to think that one of the biggest differences is the MLCer acts Mad as a Hatter.
  They can't look you in the eye, they are forgetful, fearful, panic stricken, monster spew, texting stuff like a teenager, ignoring any friends or family who don't agree with their version of re-written history, addicted to an Affair Down type, Odd touch n go conversations, talking about junk mail and other meaningless topics, compelled to abandon their familes, substance abuse, losing their jobs, heading for rock bottom, teary eyed...crumbs of hope..I could go on forever. WAS I think says "I am done"  and acts accordingly. I would think they are organized and well thought out. My H ran down the steet out of the blue saying 'Give it a few weeks, we can be friends.'   
   Now when i see him in the driveway he acts like he is a shy kid trying not to let on he likes me.   So strange.
   Looks mental in the face if we discuss me having future Rs.  Not sure if that helps or not.  Just my opinion