[Faith]

Dollard, your friend's mom's H has to be the most extreme case of a cake eater ever!  It seems like that poor woman allowed herself to be used for 40 years and was never able/allowed to move on - whether single or remarried. 

I believe the  Bible says we are released from the covenant of marriage for two reasons.  Adultery and abandonment.  If our non-believing spouse chooses to leave us, we are free from that covenant.  My H is in the process of divorcing me, and while he claims to be a Christian, no one who seeks to obey and glorify God could behave like he is.  Not only cheating and lying, but the deliberate, calculated way he has set out to financially destroy me (and therefore my kids).  I can no longer consider myself a stander because like Dollard, my H is SO lost and keep spiraling further and further downward.  I've had to unfortunately adjust my thinking from fighting for my marriage to protecting myself and, more importantly, my kids.

I agree, everyone must decide for themselves how long they can stand and I would never judge anyone.  If I had found this site earlier and handled my H's MLC differently, maybe I could have helped our situation...I don't know.  If by some miracle my H came to me tomorrow in complete repentence, I'm not sure what I would do either.  I spent two years believing that would happen, but I no longer do.  It's hard to stand, and it's hard to give up the stand.

[Wed2Him?Whatever.]

Hello all,

Just my personal take on this issue.  I intend to stand for as long as God gives me the grace to do so.  I do not yet know if my H has become involved with an OW but if he does, I feel certain a divorce, remarriage and child would result from it.  My H has not only abandoned me to a certain degree, but has also abandoned his faith.  He is now convinced it's more than appropriate for one to pursue happiness at all costs.  This is what's causing me my greatest despair.  If my H now feels there is no greater good than obtaining whatever you want whenever you want it, then truth and commitment have no room in this new mindset, and his downward spiral will continue to depths I can't imagine.  And if I'm already as weak as I am, how can a desire to stand survive all that?  I have no idea.  I just know that if it does survive it won't be in my own strength, it will have to be totally God.

[trusting]

Wed,

Turning their backs on their faith is very common in MLC, it is something else they are running from.  My H's faith used to be very important to him and was the core of who he was.  It is not now.  Hopefully they will return back to it post MLC.   I do know that if he does return to it, he will have an extremely hard time with the decisions he has made while in MLC.  That search for "happiness" is the desparate attempt to make the pain they are experiencing go away. 

[Rollercoasterider]

I'm going to reply here,  but much of this is from WritingMom's storythread. I just feel that as a general topic this may be a better place for my reply.
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1935.0;all

The whole purpose of this board is to Stand. I have wrestled with that too, off and on since Bomb Drop but have found that deep within my soul, I've thought he's coming back; and from that little, quiet dark place was born hope. And that hope has continued to grow.
And now, you [HeartsBlessing] say it needs to die.

The purpose of this board is to support those who need it in Standing and going through their spouse’s midlife crisis and infidelity. Standing is not a requirement, but because so many other boards out there are not supportive of Standing, I created this community as a special place of safety for Standing. But most Standers will probably choose to Stand down someday. We have Covenant Keepers here too, but this is not a board strictly for that group who Stands forever.
The boards purpose is the support your decision.
HeartsBlessing pointed out that we disagree regarding Standing after an MLCer marries an alienator.

And all I could tell you is what He was telling me; and more follows here:
What follows is a dose of reality; and food for thought. Understand I am PRO Marriage; but I also know there is a limit on what I can say to keep hope alive, especially in the event of the remarriage of a MLC'er to his affair partner.
Now, I WILL say that RCR holds a whole different point of view than I do on this aspect; but I've never seen a MLC spouse that moved ON and married the affair partner return to the LBS...there really IS a point of no return in this particular aspect. Most especially when a CHILD has been introduced into the mix.

Yes and No about disagreeing. But let me add--I'm adding this after writing the entire post--that I think HeartsBlessing gives her responses only with careful consideration and kindness and I take nothing she says lightly. She is comepltely honest, honorable, empathetic and compssionalte in everything she says.
I believe Standing is the decision of the abandoned spouse and not mine or anyone else’s. So I’ve read and coached a few situations where I don’t think the person should Stand, but as I read the threads of some later they are still Standing and it is still my job to support them in their choices. So in that way it’s not me encouraging Standing but supporting it.
I do not believe that marrying the alienator must end a person’s Stand. I think it may reduce the odds of reconciliation and that reduction may be even greater when a baby is involved. I also agree that remarrying may slow progress and this is even slower when there is a baby. So discard timelines. I also think the odds that the betrayed spouse will continue to Stand through this are low and thus reconciliations will be extremely rare.
But the poor odds about the success of the invalid marriage remain—and those odds may be even worse when a baby is involved.
There’s a lot of intuition involved in Standing and sometimes we have opposing intuitions when it comes to specific situations. HeartsBlessing said that she was telling you what He was telling her. Was that divine communication in general about situations where the MLCer marries the alienator or about your situation?
Then you have found that deep within my soul, I've thought he's coming back; and from that little, quiet dark place was born hope. That is an intuition that seems to be the opposite of HeartsBlessing’s. Now if hers was generalized, I do believe exceptions are allowed since though rare, some who marry the alienator do divorce and remarry their original spouse.
Now I do have a caveat for your intuition. Was it an intuition or wishful thinking? I think that when we are experiencing great trauma we often have energy blockages to our intuitive source. Sometimes the trauma may kick a source open, but sometimes it may do the opposite. You want something very badly, so badly that you may twist what you hear through that source.
When I had my main Knowing it did not tell me directly Sweetheart would come home and we would reconcile and live happily ever after. There were no words. I had to interpret the Knowing and explain it verbally to understand it and to share it. But it was simply a series of calming waves washing over my body. But it was so intense that I knew it was beyond me. The message was basically that everything would be fine—I would be fine. But within that I knew (I interpreted) that Sweetheart and I would get through the crisis together.
I don’t think there is a point of no return. I think there are points of probably no return, but that probably leaves room for a different path.

Whether to extinguish your flame of Hope or not is your choice. What do you want and what do you feel? It’s time for more prayer and meditation. God is not going to grant your requests just because you ask for them—where’s my pony? Pony? Where’s my pregnancy and baby? God will grant you what you need in this life to learn and experience all that you are meant to take with you. Some of those things He grants are hardships; all are blessings even when we do not feel blessed.
Right now you feel that believing there is no Hope will shatter you. God will guide you through this and if you embrace His guidance you will embrace and accept each step and revelation that you need to when you can. God won’t rush you. Sometimes it may feel rushed because He knows you are ready for what is coming. Trust Him.

In the beginning and at other times I asked or recommended to Sweetheart that instead of making a final decision about Us, that he instead put our marriage on a shelf and work on himself. I assured him I would be there when he took it down. Do that for your Stand. Sometimes reconciliation happens to those who no longer want it. The abandoned spouse moves on, maybe dates, and has absolutely no interest in their (former) spouse. But something changes. Their spouse progresses, changes and expresses remorse and the betrayed spouse sees a new person—maybe the old person but someone different from the abandoner. The betrayed spouse thought the door was shut—possibly slammed shut, locked and triple bolted. But her or she has the keys; she can choose to open the door. Take your Hope and Your Stand and store them together in a protected back corner and let them go. Surrender them to what happens. And if something happens, if he divorces and approaches you again, your Sand and Hope will be there for you and you can take them off the shelf and activate them again.


WritingMom, yours is one of the situation I do not even have to review to recall some of the details. I cannot say whether he will divorce the alienator; I can only say the chances are high it will someday (when?) end in divorce. And at that point I cannot say if he will be interested in approaching you. He may want to and be too scared and certain you will reject him, or he may not think of it, or he may think about it and act. But this marriage is doomed not simply because marriages where they have a baby first have a higher rate of failure and not because marriages that begin as infidelity have a higher rate of failure. This marriage is doomed because of who and what the alienator is. Recall her own history. We all know that MLCers Affair Down. Some Affairs Down are general, the context of infidelity and in-fatuation brings to the surface some acts of desperation and personality disorder attributes. Then there are those Affairs Down that are specific; the alienator is not reacting that way because of the context but this is his or her typical manner of being. BPDers, HPDers and NPDers are natural Affair Down alienators. The alienator in your situation has a history of infidelity. She was also married; so two marriages were destroyed. She had cheated before in her marriage. She got pregnant by a previous affair partner and placed that child for adoption and returned to her marriage. Her history places her as a specific Affair Down alienator. I don’t whether she has a personality disorder or not, but her history is clear about her patterns.

What do others think?  Will you stand through a marriage, a baby, a huge court battle?  Do you know, and how would you advise others?

My experience is very little with this, but there is a little experience. The first time Sweetheart left the alienator she faked a pregnancy. It was obvious she was faking to everyone but Sweetheart and given his position in the situation I completely understood and there was a tiny probability that she could have been pregnant. So what if she was? What if she was pregnant and did not miscarry? What if Sweetheart now was a father? I told him it did not change my decision. I told him I would support his decision regarding a child and if he wanted I would help him fight for custody and raise the child with him, but I would also support him if his decision were to place the child for adoption. I did tell him that I felt the alienator was less fit for parenting than we were and I thus hoped we would have custody if the child were not placed for adoption.
She conveniently miscarried within a few weeks. I do not know how my emotions would have reeled. I don’t know how it would be taking care and mothering—even if only on visitations—her child because though I love children I would have to have continuing contact with her. And regarding the affair, how would that have played out since No Contact would no longer be a possibility? And would Sweetheart have taken our divorce farther since he now had a child with her? Would he have felt he had to marry her? Maybe? I have no doubt it would have ended in divorce, but in how long?

[justasking]

I cannot say whether he will divorce the alienator; I can only say the chances are high it will someday (when?) end in divorce.

I have a friend whose H went into MLC 6years ago. They have been divorced 5 years. H married the OW when she was pregnant. This marriage is now seriously in trouble.

My friend said that he never learnt his lessons and now he is repeating them. Will they survive? Who knows? But sadly there is another child besides his first two who stands a high chance of being caught in another scenario of abandonment 

xx

[Wed2Him?Whatever.]

God is not going to grant your requests just because you ask for them—where’s my pony? Pony? Where’s my pregnancy and baby? God will grant you what you need in this life to learn and experience all that you are meant to take with you. Some of those things He grants are hardships; all are blessings even when we do not feel blessed.

Thank you for this.  It's something that I've been needing to hear and to focus on.

[Mitzpah]

This subject has touched a raw nerve for many of us, I am sure!
It helped me spiral down yesterday.
Although I am not familiar with the legal aspects of a 'covenant' marriage and this 'type' of marriage is not recognized as far as I know here in Brazil - deep down, I know I married for life in the Biblical sense of a covenant. So, probably, I could classify myself as a covenant wife.
That being established, I will stand for my marriage forever, whether he marries OW or not. So, no, marrying OW and having a child with her does not end my stand.
Only death will release me. I face never being in a marriage relationship again, I am not comfortable with that, I rebel against that idea everyday, however it is what I feel God wants of me. I desire to be in the center of His will.
What I need to do is come to a calm acceptance and not be bitter about my status.

[Gardenia]

Whenever someone "hears" something that they "think" is of the Lord it must be tested by finding scripture to back it up. If the words fail the test against the Word of God they are not to be trusted.

God does NOT recognize an adulterous marriage. I also studied this for a few years now. You have to go back into the Concordia and look at the original Greek text. The new translations of the Bible have messed up a lot of the marriage scriptures.

There are people who have studied this topic very extensively here is one site . . . .

http://www.cadz.net/

[readytofixmyselffirst]

I believe Standing is the decision of the abandoned spouse and not mine or anyone else’s.

I am part of this forum because I did not want to end my marriage. Everyone was telling me to cut my losses and move on. That was two years ago. I too feel that the main element is that the final decision to stand is the choice of the abandoned spouse. However, if I ask for advice from a member, I must be willing to read something I may not accept.

We all have out limits. In my situation, if my wife were abusing the children, I would divorce. I never support a situation where physical or sexual abuse is occurring. If a member were to post such experiences, I would tell them to separate or do whatever is necessary to protect themselves.

HB writes:

unfortunately, your husband is WAY behind you; as he's still deep in Replay; and nowhere near his awakening, as yet; that's assuming he ever reaches it.

From that comment, I felt that HB was making the same statement that we all know: there are no promises. My wife may leave me tomorrow. A piano could land on my head. Just like a few souls that went west, the disappeared and never returned. One thing we have to accept is the possibility that our spouses may never come back.

I have been on this board for almost two years. If I get a divorce or she takes off, I would never come back and feel that the forum mislead me or gave me false hope. One of HB's first posts or pm's to me was that there were no guarantees in this process.

Writing Mom writes:

It does also hurt to think that H is still deep in Replay, HB.     I really don't want to believe that!  I HAVE come a long way, but still cannot mentally accept the end of "us."  The longer he stays in Replay, the less hope I feel like I can hang on to.  And the longer he stays in Replay, the further he seems from Awakening!  To hear you say "if" as though he may not get there...no!  I can't go there.  I can't.  Not yet.

This is where the issue becomes pertinent to the purpose of the board. When do you accept the cold facts? It is one thing to have hope and another to cling to a fantasy. Once we cross the land to fantasy then we are running away just like our MLCers. It becomes unhealthy and will stop our own journey in its tracks.

I even remember one question that we were to ask our MC, "When do you feel that the marriage can no longer be saved?" It is a good question. You don't want a therapist that advises divorce after one session, but you don't want one that drags and unhappy and unwilling couple through years of therapy knowing that there is no progress and never will be any progress.

From what I read, WritingMom may not want to believe it, but something has been stirring concerning the possibility. That feeling was in her heart. HB just brought it to light.

HB writes:

What follows is a dose of reality; and food for thought.

He is currently STILL deep in Replay; no where near his awakening; and this is assuming he ever reaches it.  I'm not sure that he will...what follows will tell you why I suspect this.

We are each called upon to learn and accept the various possibilities of the crisis; I can NOT downplay what can happen; the Lord has never allowed me to show Hope without also showing what is possible.

Again, it is up to your ex-husband to move on through or not; but OW who is now his current wife is still a bandaid a symptom, rather than the whole problem, and he's still using her to avoid his issues.  As long as he continues in this way; he will NOT move forward.

If there is no movement, then the process is stuck and WritingMom will eventually become just as stuck or she will have to end her stand. Once again, very difficult words to write-but they are honest words and I will always accept the brutal truth over warm and fuzzy lies. As much as I wish I could tell WritingMom that this is just a phase and he will come back to her, I could not do so without feeling that I would be misleading her too. Even if he does come back. OW and the child will always be in the picture.

HB writes:

This is ALL food for thought; take what you need, leave the rest.  I will say no more on your situation, as He's has indicated there is nothing more to say at this point. 

HB still makes it clear that this is the advice she has to give. She did not demand that WM quit her stand. She just painted an honest picture and write words that stirred emotions that were already in my friend's heart.

RCR writes:

God will grant you what you need in this life to learn and experience all that you are meant to take with you.

Just like HB, you are writing another truth. Once again, our spouses may not come back, but from the process of standing and paving the way, we experience a new life and a stronger commitment to ourselves and our families.

Now that I have rambled meaninglessly, my point is that will we are here to give advice to support those that choose to stand, we also should be honest in our opinions and feelings  concerning our fellow LBSers.

[Dontgiveup]

This is where the issue becomes pertinent to the purpose of the board. When do you accept the cold facts? It is one thing to have hope and another to cling to a fantasy. Once we cross the land to fantasy then we are running away just like our MLCers. It becomes unhealthy and will stop our own journey in its tracks.

I even remember one question that we were to ask our MC, "When do you feel that the marriage can no longer be saved?" It is a good question. You don't want a therapist that advises divorce after one session, but you don't want one that drags and unhappy and unwilling couple through years of therapy knowing that there is no progress and never will be any progress.


If there is no movement, then the process is stuck and WritingMom will eventually become just as stuck or she will have to end her stand. Once again, very difficult words to write-but they are honest words and I will always accept the brutal truth over warm and fuzzy lies. As much as I wish I could tell WritingMom that this is just a phase and he will come back to her, I could not do so without feeling that I would be misleading her too. Even if he does come back. OW and the child will always be in the picture.

You mention accepting the cold facts.  I think one of the key things many of us actually have difficulty accepting is the MLC process.  RCR has a very very good article on Acceptance, one that I have personally read dozens of times.

As far as advice from a marriage therapist, that's something that has been discussed a few times on the forum.  Marriage therapy is of little value during the MLC.

No apparent movement does not necessarily mean the MLCer is stuck.  Another of RCR's articles that is excellent is Back-Limbo-Forward.  It discusses movement and progress of the MLCer.

So many of us have a bomb drop of two years ago or less.  In one the articles, RCR describes two years as "the end of the beginning".  Do we have difficulty with the truth behind the statement that midlife crisis takes time?

From RCR's post
"Take your Hope and Your Stand and store them together in a protected back corner and let them go. Surrender them to what happens. And if something happens, if he divorces and approaches you again, your Sand and Hope will be there for you and you can take them off the shelf and activate them again."

I think this is great wisdom.