[Anjae]

I guess what really resonated was the bit about her feeling that she couldn't be who she wanted to be, or even felt "destined" to be, while remaining with her family.  My H said that at BD, that he couldn't be who he wanted to be if he stayed with me.   

I'm sure many have heard that one in some version or another. 

I have. Probably we all heard some version of it. But what exactly does it means? That they want to go on doing totally crazy things, and that is who they are, and then, when they had enough of the crazy things, they want to be back and everything should be as before?

Of course they cannot do all that crazy stuff if they stay with their spouse/family. Which one of us was going to put up with all the absurdities? But there are things they could do and still be in the family. Mr J started djing before he left. I did not stop him, I have even encouraged him. He loves music, he is good at it, he said that it was something he wanted to try, but it would not be forever. So, I was fine with it.

Why the OW? Why leave? Why be so mean towards me? Why all the lies? I don't know. I also do not believe the crisis self is his real self. Or better, the crisis self is the real crisis self, and probably who is going to be. It has been practically 10 years since BD, but it was not who he was.

And yes, her actions were deliberate, but it also goes to show her pain.  It's well written, not moan-y. 

So, they know (or some of them do) what they are doing and do it deliberately. What does that makes them? And what does that makes of us? In my view their pain could be solved with a therapist/doctor, if they would find a good one and stick to the doctor.

In the end, they have the pain they had, plus the pain and damage of all they have caused. What exactly were they trying to achieve? I have no idea. Or maybe I have. Currently, I doubt I could be myself with Mr J. I am a different person than I was, the old he no longer fits, crisis Mr J of course does not do, new Mr J I do not know how he will be, but who he was no longer matches me. And I have the suspicion that, if he had not had a MLC, at a point, I would divorce him. Because I suspect he would still start to be behind big time, and I would want to move forward, keep learning, keep growing, explore new things.

We have too many stickied topics. We are always trying to reduce them, but never really succeed. But we can keep this thread active by posting on it. 

[Anjae]

Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers by Robert Sapolsky a book that was recommend on a meditation Air shared on her thread, and that I have been reading.

This are the book's chapters:


 1 Why Don’t Zebras Get Ulcers?
 2 Glands, Gooseflesh, and Hormones
 3 Stroke, Heart Attacks, and Voodoo Death
 4 Stress, Metabolism, and Liquidating Your Assets
 5 Ulcers, the Runs, and Hot Fudge Sundaes
 6 Dwarfism and the Importance of Mothers
 7 Sex and Reproduction
 8 Immunity, Stress, and Disease
 9 Stress and Pain
 10 Stress and Memory
 11 Stress and a Good Night’s Sleep
 12 Aging and Death
 13 Why Is Psychological Stress Stressful?
 14 Stress and Depression
 15 Personality, Temperament, and Their Stress-Related Consequences
 16 Junkies, Adrenaline Junkies, and Pleasure
 17 The View from the Bottom
 18 Managing Stress

Those pretty much cover the issues we deal with, and often talk about here in the board. Both regarding the LBS and the MLCer. The book in written for laymen, and easy to read.

Here is a bit of chapter 15 Personality, Temperament, and Their Stress-Related Consequences:

"Your style, your temperament, your personality have much to do with whether you regularly perceive opportunities for control or safety signals when they are there, whether you consistently interpret ambiguous
circumstances as implying good news or bad, whether you typically seek out and take advantage of social support. Some folks are good at modulating stress in these ways, and others are terrible. These fall
within the larger category of what Richard Davidson has called “affective style.” And this turns out to be a very important factor in understanding why some people are more prone toward stress-related diseases
than others.

We start with a study in contrasts. Consider Gary. In the prime of his life, he is, by most estimates, a success. He’s done okay for himself materially, and he’s never come close to going hungry. He’s also had
more than his share of sexual partners. And he has done extremely well in the hierarchical world that dominates most of his waking hours. He’s good at what he does, and what he does is compete—he’s already Number 2 and breathing down the neck of Number 1, who’s grown complacent and a bit slack. Things are good and likely to get better.

But you wouldn’t call Gary satisfied. In fact, he never really has been. Everything is a battle to him. The mere appearance of a rival rockets him into a tensely agitated state, and he views every interaction with a potential competitor as an in-your-face personal provocation. He views virtually every interaction with a distrustful vigilance. Not surprisingly, Gary has no friends to speak of. His subordinates give him a wide, fearful berth because of his tendency to take any frustration out on them. He behaves the same toward Kathleen, and barely knows their daughter Caitland—this is the sort of guy who is completely indifferent to the cutest of infants. And when he looks at all he’s accomplished, all he can think of is that he is still not Number 1.
 
Gary’s profile comes with some physiological correlates. Elevated basal glucocorticoid levels—a constant lowgrade stress-response because life is one big stressor for him. An immune system that you wouldn’t wish on your worst enemy. Elevated resting blood pressure, an unhealthy ratio of “good” to “bad” cholesterol, and already the early stages of serious atherosclerosis. And, looking ahead a bit, a premature death in late middle-age.

Contrast that with Kenneth. He’s also prime-aged and Number 2 in his world, but he got there through a different route, one reflecting the different approach to life that he’s had ever since he was a kid. Someone caustic or jaded might dismiss him as merely being a politician, but he’s basically a good guy—works well with others, comes to their aid, and they in turn to his. Consensus builder, team player, and if he’s ever frustrated about anything, and it isn’t all that certain he ever is, he certainly doesn’t take it out on those around him.

A few years ago, Kenneth was poised for a move to the Number 1 spot, but he did something extraordinary—he walked away from it all. Times were good enough that he wasn’t going to starve, and he had reached the realization that there were things in life more important than fighting your way up the hierarchy. So he’s spending time with his kids, Sam and Allan, making sure they grow up safe and healthy. He has a best friend in their mother, Barbara, and never gives a thought to what he’s turned his back on.

Not surprisingly, Kenneth has a physiological profile quite different from Gary’s, basically the opposite on every stress-related measure, and enjoys a robust good health. He is destined to live to a ripe old age, surrounded by kids, grandkids, and Barbara."

The whole book is worthy read.

[stayed]

My Irish friend has written a book on her story and reconciliation.  It has just come out in print and I am proud to present it to H.S.  It is a wonderful, moving story, that both my husband I thoroughly enjoyed.  It brought us to tears and gives us much joy to know that our friend and her husband, have reconciled and are now LIVING THE DREAM. 

This is woman whom my husband wrote his famous letter to.

https://www.amazon.com/One-Womans-story-Helen-Doyle-ebook/dp/B01M690UN7/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1477581282&sr=8-2&keywords=helen+doyle

Enjoy...

Hugs Stayed

[calamity]

This doesn't seem to be available here.  Too bad.

[stayed]

Actually Calamity it is... go to Amazon.ca write in the title of her book and her name... here it is...

https://www.amazon.ca/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=A+woman%27s+story+by+Helen+Doyle+

hugs Stayed

Yes.  I was on amazon.com [USA].

[Shocked]

Just jumping on this thread! Looks like I have a lot to read!!!

[Mortesbride]

I was looking for a discussion or link to more information in regards to the Pursuer/distancer Dance.

I am a classic pursuer....MLC is the classic distancer.

He has gotten comfortable knowing that I am always here, and chasing him.

I need help to change that dynamic. Not just to help our marriage and current situation, but to help myself in the future.

I am not sure how to balance the....''I'm no longer chasing you''..but ''I'm still here for you''.. dynamic.

I am looking for information here on the following topics:

-How do you handle face to face contact? (Do I avoid eye contact? Not speak unless he asks a question? Or make polite chat?)

-How do I handle personal questions? (How are you doing? Are you going out? Who you going with? etc)

-Do I pretend to be happy or just neutral? (He keeps saying ''you were fine yesterday''...I haven't been fine...I just pretend to be)

-What sort of reactions would be typical when you stop pursuit?

-How long does it take before they generally notice a change in the dynamic?

-Any helpful tips from other pursuers who learned how to curb their behaviour?

-Did you try this and see any effects in your relationship? Did it help or hurt?

[confused40]

interesting discussion, I am too new to this to give any input, but what if the mlcer is a classic pursuer and the ow the distancer.
My h is a classic example of a pursuer and from what I have heard the ow is a distancer, that will make their relationship a perfect match it would seem.

[waiting4]

Hello Bride.. I think we all have the same questions and come to realize that each situation is unique yet the same..What works for one LBSer  may not work for another..I think its safe to say this is a very personal journey and the right responses vs wrong responses are truly trial and error with our individual MCLer..But I want very much to keep this discussion open and want to hear from others ..

I am currently 2.5 years into this and I have made so many mistakes and I see where I have made some things worse.. have I pushed it past the point of no return ? that remains to be seen..

I read so many of the articles and I myself find them to be like reading a medical journal. I simply want and seek simple straight talk.. such as " I did xyz and it worked for me".. or "you can try this approach and see what happens"  there is so much on this forum , which is wonderful, and I spend a lot of time reading and I find things that are very helpful.. But there are times I just want to hear an example from others..not to use presay , but to think about, to gauge.

So my responses to a few of  your questions are..

1, I am a pursuer as well, and I am a fixer.. This has not helped my situation and my pursuit has in fact pushed my H away and maybe closer to OW.. So iam not pursuing my H any longer.. not to get him back but because I feel that since he left he wants space so I'm giving him his space. its taken me 2.5 years to get that  but hey better late than never..pulse I now choose to not pursue my H because I simply am not a game player. as a consequence of my lack of pursuit  has that affected my H? maybe.. I do not initiate contact with him any longer, but he now makes contact with me via email and I did receive a phone call from him last week, that in fact went rather well..

2, I have not seen my H in 10 months other than 2 small meetings that did  not go very well mainly because i let my emotions show...

3,I have found for our situation it is best to keep any conversations strictly business.. the bills, our daughter, his job, repairs for the house etc.. and questions that get too personal always  and I mean always lead to my H pulling away..

4, I am basically taking  the " positive/neutral " road in this.. I'm not happy about what is happening, but I cant control it so I look for the positive through my day.. I am trying to have a neutral attitude about anything he does.. Its not good to have any expectations with them.

so I have pulled away from my H .. I do not initiate contact with him ( he sends an email a few times a week Basically with the same message and tone " Hi (pet name) I hope you are doing well"  I do not reply each time and when I do i say "I'm fine , Thank you"   

I have no real idea what my H thinks or feels.. He says one thing but his actions say another.. as an example.. He says he misses me, but he will not physically see me..He has said in the past that there have been times he thinks about coming bac.. but i have not seen anything from him where he has even come close to pulling away from OW..

I am just working on me.. trying to stay positive.. trying to not react  to what he  says or does, trying to keep a sense of humor, and most importantly I'm letting go of trying to control him or the situation..

[Thunder]

I don't think either one of us were pursuers or distancers UNTIL this happened.  We were on about the same level.  We did both at different times.

After BD I guess at first I did pursue him because he distanced himself and I didn't know anything about MLC.
I had to know what was happening so I pursued.

I soon found out the more I left him alone the more he came to me.

I guess the best way I can answer your questions is to think of your MLCer as a co-worker or a distant relative...or a roommate you didn't know that well.
Act how you would with them.  You would be polite and friendly, but not overly friendly.  You wouldn't talk about your personal life, only light chit chat.
If they asked you how you are, you most likely would say, I'm fine thank you for asking.  Positive and neutral.

You would never ask about their personal life.  You wouldn't care where they go or what they do.

You would not get emotional around them.  You most likely wouldn't argue with them.

It takes a LOT of practice but if you do it long enough it really does help to take the emotions out of it.

Every time you want to ask something ask yourself if you would ask a co-worker that question.
If they ask you something, how would you answer a distant relative?

The key is don't treat or think of them as a spouse. 
Like I said, it takes awhile but this way you are taking the pressure off both of you.