[Trustandlove]

Thundarr, my kids still need, and get, daily reassurance of my love.  Even after a number of years they STILL are afraid, somewhere underneath there, that I, too, might just up and leave.  So I reassure them of that daily as well. 

They were children when H left, they are now teens, but that doesn't change.  Now they are starting to form their own opinions, but the basic need for love and reassurance is still there. 

And we do the dance between making sure that they all pull their age-appropriate weight in the house, while making sure that I am the adult and they the kids. 

My kids also sometimes don't want to talk; I actually force it (I use the word "force" not quite as it sounds....) sometimes; it's one thing to respect their right to silence, another to let them keep on bottling things up.  And then the other trick is to know when to stop....

And yes, I get a LOT of shouting, a lot of anger, etc.  I take it -- they need me to be the rock, and they need to know that the boundaries will hold even when they shove and kick against them.

[Rookie13]

Again, I was fortunate enough to have a father who understood where I was at and picked me up off the ground at my weakest moments.

He taught me so much on how to let her twist and get a strong hold of my children and their feelings and their inside security. I too started out with resentful children and did not understand or completely ignored their own pain because of my own as I was still chasing a lost cause. She was deep in the tunnel and I didn't know what a tunnel was. ( I also thank some special friends from LT who where there at that time and taught me about MLC ).

I am no expert by any means and only know what I have been taught and experienced, but trying to manage children and their emotions and feelings is very difficult when are own are all over the place.

Thundarr, I agree that maybe I took your words wrong about S7 but that does not matter how it was taken as S7 still asked the question. The thought of him coloring dark sad circles is a classic sign, as you know, of his feelings. And TB your son is disconnecting as my S8 tried to do. We are good parents with a world of trouble on our minds at this time and some things we really do not understand or see in our children. 

Lots and lots of reassurance as stated is necessary, At this time your kids may need some help also.

JA and Trustandlove talk about having to be 'the man' for some kids and bottling things up and these statements are very true and real. A great start is to have your children see their school psychologist. it will get out the things that need to come out and it will be relayed back to you. Teenagers won't be so willing but kids as young as ours will go and mine have. Unconditional love goes a long way and with the MLCer being caught up and selfish, it has to come from us.

I was told and I am going to tell you, Kids come first ( I know, we are putting them first before you keep score, lol), they are young and with out tools and their whole future depends on how we handle this most devastating crisis.

If you succeed with them, you have not only giving them valuable tools, but it will come back to you from them 10 fold. Trust me on this as I have experienced so much love back from mine and confidence from them. take your time and just give them your strength back first. it's something that needs to build. They will know when Thundarr or anybody else for that matter is truly putting them first.

[hobo1]

Parenting advice needed....  So my S8 wanted some cereal, I put the cereal in a bowl.  He screamed, WTF, I don't want it in a bowl,,, You are the worst father ever, no wonder mommy doesn't want you' 

My D10 knew it probably wasn't he right thing for him to say, and starts crying...  saying she hates it when we argue and yell.

I told S8 that this is no way to speak to me, and that he needed to apologize.  I told him to give me a few minutes, because I was not finished with him.

I texted W and advised that I believe he might need to see a school therapist because he is acting out.  This is the second time I've texted her in the past month about this.

The only thing she has said to me about S8 was in a letter from her attorney, reminding me not to speak disparagingly about her...  because my s8 asked her if she was going through a mid life crisis.

I need to set boundaries with S8, I need to show love, and have him feel secure, but what he is doing is not acceptable.

Any advice is welcome.

[Thundarr]

TB,

Dude, to me it sounds like you took that personal.  What would have happened if you had used humor and said "I thought it was because I smelled" or something.  They HAVE to feel safe to act out somewhere.  You just have to ride it out and process it with them when they're done.  Don't expect an apology from him now.  He (or you) also triggered something in your daughter.  However you handled this, DON'T handle it that way next time.

I was just looking at the pic if your kids right before I read this.  They are so sweet and innocent, I wish I could meet with them and help them to express all those feelings they have.  Just take them to a counselor and don't involve the W.

[kikki]

Hobo - sorry, this is so tough on our kids.

I have three sons - now all teenagers.

Your son needs help in understanding and expressing his feelings.  Males tend to be taught, or feel it is acceptable, to have only a couple of feelings.  Anger and happiness.
Males have as many feelings as females, they just need help to identify them.
'I understand that you're feeling, angry/upset/hurt (whatever it is) right now, but if you are wanting your cereal in something else other than a bowl- then say - can I please have my cereal in ..........

I have always said that my children can tell me anything, they can say anything to me.  As long as they are not rude to me, I will listen.
But, as I am the grown up, even though I will respect their feelings/point of view - I will have the last say, as I am the one in charge, not them.
They need reminding of this though, as they learn.

Therapy sounds like a great idea.  Do you have to discuss with your wife?  Can you go ahead and arrange it without asking for her permission?  I'm not sure of the laws that you have surrounding this. 

[hobo1]

Kikki
Thundarr
 Thanks for your input.  For some reason, I think it's because I am acting detached from W for the past few months, and S8 may feel that there must be some reason I am not getting angry, and he wants to see me angry....  Not sure why he wants to push my buttons.  Seems like everyone does, including W....

All this and the D negotiations going on....  Looks like she is giving in on alot, and I'm not sure to make it more difficult or not.  She wants it all settled by the 28th and we don't have more time left.

I also don't want to drag it out, but I don't want to give in to easy, so there are no easy answers....

T- yep, would love for you to work with my kids...  We have joint custody, I believe I can bring them to a therapist if I notify her, not certain. 

[hobo1]

Thundarr - So I read what you wrote about dealing with them like any other depressed person.  I think you are right.  I only see monster when I've poked it in the past, whether knowingly or by accident.  When they feel trapped, and when they are forced to answer questions they can't answer.

My question is when you see a depressed person, do they act with apathy towards everything and everybody?  This is not the case with my STBX, I don't believe....  Seems like it's ONLY towards me.

I'm glad to see that you seem to be making some progress, but I don't see any progress at all.  I don't mean in terms of R, just in terms of her wanting to talk about the kids and other things that 'normal' divorced couples need to talk about.

She also has no reservations on D, continuing to fight to get as much money as she can.

When I am cordial, she generally is, and when I don't talk about our relationship or the D, she is fine.

You are right about what you wrote on me taking what my son said personally, I did.  It was painful.  It sounded evil, it sounded like her.  My poor daughter just wanted to have peace.  So sad, she felt the tension when I was at home, and when I need to discipline my son, she would get upset, wanting everyone to get along.

I still hold anger... especially when she is asking for so much, and feel so entitled.

Empathy or not for a depressed person, I will look at the D separately. 

[Thundarr]

, but I don't see any progress at all.  I don't mean in terms of R, just in terms of her wanting to talk about the kids and other things that 'normal' divorced couples need to talk about.

She also has no reservations on D, continuing to fight to get as much money as she can.

When I am cordial, she generally is, and when I don't talk about our relationship or the D, she is fine.

You are right about what you wrote on me taking what my son said personally, I did.  It was painful.  It sounded evil, it sounded like her.  My poor daughter just wanted to have peace.  So sad, she felt the tension when I was at home, and when I need to discipline my son, she would get upset, wanting everyone to get along.

I still hold anger... especially when she is asking for so much, and feel so entitled.

Empathy or not for a depressed person, I will look at the D separately.

My follow-up question to this would be how much does your daughter take after your W in terms of temperament and personality?  Perhaps your W feels the same way when you and your son argue, and she may also feel like this or worse when you and she argue.  Not blaming you for anything, brother, but just thinking about what image you may be portraying to the rest of the family right now whether you mean to or not.  Your daughter is old enough that her perceptions of emotions are likely pretty well-developed and she seems to be very smart to boot.

Your statements about your W not wanting to talk about the kids and other "normal" things is contradicted two sentences later when you state that she is cordial and fine when you are as well.  I would wonder if you might be letting some emotion trickle out when discussing the kids that you are unaware of.  Perhaps when you start talking about them your mind switches to thinking about how much they are being hurt by all of this and your W is somehow able to pick up on your growing anger inside.  Remember, my friend, they know us far too well for us to play games with them at this hour.  Even in a fog they can often see right through us.  I would suggest you make it a point to reach a level of calm BEFORE engaging with your W about anything or even attempting to.  It seems she does not push you away when she feels safe, such as the pleasant interactions you guys had at the courthouse.  Calm those inner fires and see if your interactions change as well.

Best of luck to you, my friend.

[hobo1]

Yes. you are right, I think my D and W have the same temperament.  D doesn't want to have conflict, and neither does W, especially before BD. Now she is always on the defensive.  She tells me I stress her out.  and I do think that D feels stressed when there is conflict too.  On the other hand, S seems to love conflict and provokes it.  I don't like conflict either, but when I see it, I won't back down, and get angry.

Interesting dynamic.  Sometimes I wonder if this is MLC at all, but perhaps it's a family relationship issue.  Prior to the kids, there was not much conflict.  It could be my W's avoidant personality that I never had a conflict with her.  Do you think this could all be her being too stressed out?

 To clarify, when I talk about things with W, she does respond positively, except for stuff regarding the relationships, Divorce and finances, and what to do with the house etc.

She also would never respond to any texts I send, including those regarding coparenting.  Instead, she has her lawyer send letters to me to not to talk disparagingly about her to the children.

I am angry, I never speak disparagingly about her to the kids, but I can see that it does seep out.  How do you remain so calm, and not be angry at times....  Do your kids not feel your pain and anger?  Both my kids are very perceptive.  My daughter is empathetic, and she never wants to talk to me about her feelings.  My son see pain, and it seems he revels in making it worse, and he says how he feels.  The reveling in my pain, angers me too.

I suppose one of the things I need to 'work on' is how to extinguish this anger.  I actually dont have a clinging boomerang, or touch and go.  I've not spoken to her in months, and she never initiates contact.  It's come to a point where I am afraid to seek her out.  This may be me, trying to avoid being hurt, that I avoid her.

Sometimes I wonder if I asked her out for a cup of coffee, if she would go.  and if she did, what would we talk about?  We are so close to 'D'.
Would anyone think it makes sense to see if she might be having second thoughts on the D?

I say this only because we will need to sell the house, and my kids will need to leave the only home they've ever known.  Financially, I will be better off than her.  She will barely survive, especially if she doesn't work, and need to care for the two kids.

I am not as bad off as I originally had thought.  I've actually never had so much money to spend on myself before in my life.... this is because I never spent money on myself, everything was for her and the family....  this will especially be true after the house sells and the alimony and CS kicks in, before that happens, I still pay for everything.  One of her things is to have me pay her MORE before the house sells, which I cant afford.  Especially since I don't know how long it is before the house is sold.

I know she doesn't mean to be the way she is, and she is not evil...  I am hurt, and angry.  She then attacks me with a divorce while I am hurt, which angers me even more.

I've spoken to my share of divorced women, and all tell me that they feel bad that their x husbands don't see their kids daily.  My STBX is so apathetic.  She doesn't think its a big deal, and thinks its just a fact of life.  In the beginning she did say she is 'letting' me stay in the family room because then I could see the kids daily.  But that is no way for a kid to see their father living.  They feel the tension.  BEsides it's like I did something wrong, and am banished to the family room.  I sometimes wonder where I would be had I never left the bedroom, and never left the house.

We are so close to divorce, and I am just sad to see it.  I accept it, and have plans to move on, but doesn't she feel anything?  She must be in so much pain because the woman that I know would definitely be sentimental about this.  She used to be so sensitive.  Now it's no feelings, and I don't believe she cries anymore, she is just emotionless, and seems so happy when I see her.  Of course I don't let on that I am sad, but I think she knows I am.

[Thundarr]

I wonder where your son gets his temperament from?......

A few things stuck out in your last post, but I will address the part about being calm and angry at the same time first.  In my training as a therapist we learn to protect ourselves by putting up a wall to prevent our clients from passing on their emotions to us (transference).  We learn to regulate our own emotions and come to a place of calm when dealing with them as we can never expect them to remain calm given the fact that they are in need of therapy to begin with.  I have learned over the years to put myself in an almost zen-like state inside when doing therapy sessions as clients can sense the calm and feel less threatened and more secure in sharing their innermost thoughts and feelings.  When dealing with abused kids, especially ones who have been sexually abused, this is absolutely necessary as the feelings of fear and shame often manifest right in my office during sessions and have to be addressed and processed right then and there.  If I didn't have that internal balance, along with the shields up, I could either make the situation worse or even cause me to subconsciously take on some of that baggage myself (vicarious traumatization).  Very few on here believe me that I can be hurt and angry (not so much angry anymore though) and still interact peacefully and gently with my W without her feeling threatened or intimidated.  But I'm a professional and I DO THIS FOR A LIVING!!  The average person likely doesn't have the emotional regulation skills that a professional therapist does, and rightfully so, as they are not needed in normal day-to-day life (okay, WP, go ahead and nail me on this one.  lol).  Yes, I often vent my anger on here and on LT but you and I have talked many times and I don't think I come across as being that angry when speaking do I?  Yes, you and I have many of the same emotions about this and just as strongly.  You wouldn't expect me to be able to lay out a stock portfolio or do an amortization, and I would not expect you to be able to handle one-on-one interactions like I do.  That's how we can help each other out, but I do think you would benefit greatly from finding a therapist who understands and can help you with this in person.

Now, what stuck out in your post was that you mind-read quite a bit.  You attribute thoughts and feelings to your W that you have NO way of knowing.  Are you Professor X?  Exactly.  You have no idea what she is thinking or how she feels unless she actually tells you, then you may still now know.  I'm trained to read body language, facial expression, voice tone, register and affect but even all that is hit or miss as people sometimes don't betray how they feel inside, especially if they don't even KNOW how they feel inside.  Perhaps you could eliminate alot of anxiety in your life if you accepted the fact that you will never know what she's thinking.

Great observations about how your attitude toward your W affects her attitude toward you.  I don't know that I would invite her for coffee, but I think you have alot of small-talking to do in order to get there.  She obviously freaks out when you try to discuss things that she finds stressful so avoid those at all costs.  Let your lawyers handle the plans for the house, finances etc.  Keep your conversations civil and pleasant.  My W and I talk about movies, celebrities, funny things at work and especially the kids and laugh and seem to feel comfortable in each other's presence more than we have in months.  STP has been telling you this for awhile now.  When you see your W today, tell her how good the kids did at bowling and share some funny moments with her.  You will eventually get to a point where she doesn't dread seeing you and will not hide when you are around.  Joe Cool, alright?  You may still end up D, but the kids will be much less stressed if they see you all enjoying each other's company and sharing a mutual interest in them.  It really can't hurt, man.

I hope this helps.

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