[Rollercoasterider]

But you didn’t have a MLC did you? I don’t recall reading that you’ve had a crisis of your own... So, if you did not have a crisis of your own, wouldn’t your Liminality be different and less severe than the one of a MLCer?

Nope--no MLC and yes it would be (and was) different and mine was less severe, but Liminality can be severe for someone without them being in MLC.
MLT has three main phases.

• Separation
• Liminality
• Rebirth

For an MLT to be MLC the Separation phase is elongated by having the Escape & Avoid phase--it is Liminality that is being avoided.

[Thundarr]

RCR,

Thank you for weighing in and adding to this wonderful discussion.  I had promised to get back sooner, but truth be told I have little energy to do that tonight (will detail on my own thread and not hijack this one) and certainly not enough to do justice to the excellent people and questions that have been presented here.  It is glad to know that between you, me and the others here we are able to tie some of the new and old concepts together.  I'm very interested in your article on Erikson and will check it out when I can.

I do want to comment to AnneJ though about mentioning mental health concepts that are recognized in your country.  As recently as 10 years ago (and maybe still now) many European countries were far ahead of the US as far as the recognization and treatment of mental health.  When I worked for my first agency (which is known for being on the cutting edge of training staff) I was trained by a gentleman from Norway on Video Assisted Communication.  We were the first agency to adopt it and when I went to the agency I was at for over 10 years no one had even heard of it until recently.  I'm told Norway and Sweden are the leaders, but I'm sure other countries there also have made great strides and I look forward to sharing information with all.

[Anjae]

Thanks RCR. I’m still trying to figure out if I’ve had a MLC or a MLT… Some say if there is no alienator it is not a MLC…But I not that certain. Anyway, whatever happened to be it followed husband’s crisis/leaving/BD.

Thundarr, come back when you can. Would love to hear your input on this matter.

Sweden and Norway are far ahead of the rest of us but each country has been developing as far as mental health is concerned. And, sometimes, it has more to do with the hospital and doctor than with the country. The hospital my friend, the psychiatrists works for, is much more ahead than some other mental health hospitals. The doctor at my husband’s company was not bad for a work doctor. But the GP we’ve had for ages, in the big city, was not good at all and when husband had been previously depressed, he made a mess out of it. He managed to diagnose the depression (by then an overt one) but did not knew how to use the meds properly. Husband reacts very badly to Fluoxetine, it drives him insane. Prozac was the med of choice by then but it does not work on everyone. I think one of the reason is linked to which one of the neurotransmitter(s) is (are) imbalanced.

Anyway, that GP was many years ago (10 or so) and since then a lot have changed. Sadly the huge cuts our government is making in Health may throw mental health back to the dark ages. 

[Thundarr]

Does Portugal have socialized medicine, Anne?

[Anjae]

Yes, thundarr, we have socialized medicine. Or used to have... Our National Health System design was based on the British National Heath System. Like the British one it is now being destroyed.

It was never socialized medicine like in Sweden or Norway, theirs is really, really good and, if I'm not mistaken, if totally free for everyone, but it was ok.

[Gallagher]

I think I will have to do some more reading on depression.  My H's Psychiatrist told H he had "situational depression".  Our MC told my H he was depressed too.  H seems depressed, even my 16 year old can describe it as a "heaviness"  a "void of expression".  He has times of deep "nothingness" and times of great energy (mostly in the yard/garden).

Even though he wasn't clinically depressed, there was a feeling of depression that surrounded most of his crisis.  Really, you could feel it.

Lot's of great things to think about here.

[Rollercoasterider]

I think I will have to do some more reading on depression.  My H's Psychiatrist told H he had "situational depression".  Our MC told my H he was depressed too.  H seems depressed, even my 16 year old can describe it as a "heaviness"  a "void of expression".  He has times of deep "nothingness" and times of great energy (mostly in the yard/garden).

Even though he wasn't clinically depressed, there was a feeling of depression that surrounded most of his crisis.  Really, you could feel it.

Lot's of great things to think about here.

I recommend you start with I Don't Want to Talk About It by Terrence Real. It is specific to depression in men.

[Thundarr]

Bumping for the newbies, and updating on why there have been no updates.  Due to trainings and my supervisor's vacation I haven't had more than ten minutes to speak to him since the day we had this talk.  Hopefully next week will be different but I don't know.  Going to kick work into overdrive now that I have bonus incentives and can do it without missing out in kid time.

[Thundarr]

I wanted to share with everyone that I attended a lecture today by a brain expert that was focused primarily on how drugs affect the brain but went into GREAT detail about how the brain functions and how it is affected by different stimuli and conditions.  Here are the key points I took from it, and I'll copy/ paste it into one of my discussion threads as well for those who don't follow my thread regularly:

The doctor who gave the presentation was associated with the Amen Institute (Kikki I believe is very familiar with them) and presented more than one could ever want to know about brain function and what an unhealthy brain is like.  Of course, I had questions pertaining to MLC (without mentioning MLC of course) and began with a question about the purpose of depression and why it causes the suppression of positive memories, and ending with the long-term effects of depression on the brain (here's a hint - the news isn't good).

 - First off, depression plays a biological role in that it is brought on by some manner of unmet expectation which leads to a reality check that is often more than some people can handle.  The end purpose of depression is to LOWER THE EXPECTATIONS of ther person experiencing it so that they are no longer faced with the hurtful reality and can focus inward rather than outward.  The suppression of positive memories is so that the person can feel that OTHERS WILL HAVE LOWER EXPECTATIONS OF THEM.  The doctor even used the expression "Stop expecting me to be the spouse you are used to me being."  Therefore, the role of depression in these cases is to PREVENT FURTHER HARM BROUGHT ON BY EXPECTATIONS.  I was honestly in awe with how quickly he popped off the answer to my question, and I now think he has been asked this before.

- Dopamine "highs" - He used the example of cocaine addicts who are constantly using coke in an attempt to recreate their first time, which for most is the most pleasurable.  He talked about how the brain remembers events, positive and negative, that have some sort of emotional weight attached to them.  It is NOT UNCOMMON for a person to keep reverting back to a time in their lives that held the most pleasurable and emotional impact on them, and for those we are dealing with that is often the teenage years.  The search for that "perfect high" is a huge force for some people, and especially addicts.

- Which brings me to the fact that a depressed person often shows the same brain functioning as an addict does.  He showed numerous brain image scans that showed how brain activity fluctuates and deteriorates over time in both instances.  Unfortunately, while the addict brain has shown great improvement after a 12-24 month abstinence from the drug the effects of depression seem to be everlasting.  He said he has read the newest research and "the news isn't good for someone suffering from long-term depression."  Also, apparently only 50% of clients in pharmacological tests showed improvement with drug therapy and half of them were using placebos.

- On the topic of depression still, most researchers now believe that it's never truly "cured" but rather that the symptoms may be reduced.  In clinical diagnosis, there is always a certain number of criteria that must be met in order for someone to be diagnosed with a mental illness.  If enough of those criteria disappear then the person is considered "cured" or "in remission" by current standards, but no account is taken for whether they are actually enjoying life or feeling good about themselves.  They simply do not meet ALL the criteria necessary.  They may or may not have the capacity to enjoy their children or grandchildren, or life in general for that matter but if they do not meet ALL the criteria for depression....

- Lastly, (well, the last I can remember right now) the long-term effects of depression on the brain are only now becoming known.  Many experts now believe that DEMENTIA IS THE NATURAL PROGRESSION OF DEPRESSION.  In other words, someone with long-term depression WILL most likely end up suffering from dementia and in future research it is likely to be found to be the same thing.  Wow.  What a way to end the training, and that last part just really threw me for a loop.  It's sad to say, but this past week or so I really have been wondering whether or not my W will ever come out of this or if she is pretty much doomed (DGU would remind me of Conway's writings on this).  Her mother has never been "right" since I've known her, and at times W's crazy looks and antics have truly reminded me of her mother (who now has Alzheimer's as most of you know). 

My perspective on my own sitch is that my W was putting off achieving her goals (masters degree just like her sister, professional job, proving something to her parents etc) and finally realized that she had run out of time when her mother's mind went.  It is this realization that brought on this major depression that W just doesn't seem capable of overcoming. 

This is all so sad for everyone involved, and I feel so sorry for W and all the other MLC spouses here.  I hope they all find the strengto to "wake up" and reach out to us for help, and I also pray we all find the strength to be there for them when they do.

[Ready2Transform]

That's so fascinating!  And what a coup that this opportunity comes up for you right now!  Kikki got me hooked on Dr. Amen's work, too.  I don't disagree at all that this is something that is a "managed" lifelong illness, instead of just a phase.  Supplements geared toward balancing my neurotransmitters play a huge role for me (Amen is a big proponent of them, too), and I can notice a difference in mood if I'm not staying strict to my regimen.  I don't know that I would go back into full blown crisis if I went off of them, but I know it would make a difference long term in the quality of my life.  I believe even though the prognosis is not good where drug therapy is concerned, supplements and nutrition can make a major difference in the onset or severity of any potential dementia.