[underpressure]

I recently read something that Rollercoasterrider wrote about advice-giving (in the newbie info posts), that has me thinking.

My situation is complex. I started an EA with OM in July-August, and ended it in October. I haven't had even contact with him since Jan 1, and now I find him loathsome, and am in deep analysis with a therapist, which I fully recognize is what I should have done in the first place instead of looking for help in OM. BUT, and this is not said as if I have an excuse, but the very first day I started a private message with the OM (he was a brother of a friend in our mom's group, who was actually part of the mom's group), I was on the 14th day of H not speaking to me or even looking at me in the eye. He did this all the time. Stonewalling. I can't remember what started it. Perhaps it was that I spent too much on Legos for S5 that week, or whatever it was. I ask to discuss a budget, he says NO WAY...Always a double-bind situation.

I have one friend who has known me since S5 was 1 years old. She says she thinks he is a Narcissitic emotional abuser/controller, and that the situation is as bad as being physically abused. Right now I feel she guided me into an affair...Like I would never have stepped outside my marriage if someone had just said "it's not that bad, you can make this work".

My therapist has not met my H. But he has heard all the stories (from my perspective). He thinks I have been emotionally abused. Rollercoasterrider suggested that when the MLCer is a Narcissist perhaps that is the one time Divorce might be the only option. I was ready to stand after I found this site. But now I am suddenly collapsing back.

How does one REALLY KNOW for sure that the MLCer is too far gone into abuse and narcissistic controlling? How do I know?
Anyone else dealing with abuse?

[limitless]

If you are being abused....now or prior to BD - you should not be in that relationship.

That being said.....after BD - we may have a tendency to see only the BAD things about our spouses.  In MLC  - many times - they become the OPPOSITE of what they once were.

My H had issues.  Addiction issues.....issues with honesty....spending issues....but, quite honestly, he was very giving  of himself, his time, his effort to many (I now see the Accomodator aspect of this).....my H was NOT narcississtic.

He very well certainly is now.  Which the is opposite of who he used to be

Food for thought.

L

[underpressure]

Thanks, Limitless,

This is something that needs much thought, for me, so I am so glad to have the discussion.

Here is what rollercoasterider posted in the newbie section about it:

In my time coaching on forums I have only seen 2 situations where I was familiar enough and felt that divorce would be better. In both situations the Standing spouse (unknowingly) described their spouse’s as Narcissists. MLCers often display a higher than typical level of Narcissistic attributes during the crisis, but the histories described in each situation implied long-standing emotional and verbal abuse that sounded like Narcissism. I’m not a Psychotherapist and I did not meet the MLCers, so my judgment was based only on the words from the Standers and I did not tell either of them they should not Stand; that was and remains their decision.

I did not start out believing my H was a narcissist when my friend started making that deduction and bringing it to my attention. She talked of a family member who had similar behavior. My H had been threatening me with divorce for years at heightened periods. I was walking on eggshells, always apologizing, begging, pleading, afraid. I never felt safe. I started to feel "sneaky" which may be what led to my emotional affair. Having some secret friend to talk to while my prison warden wasn't looking...

But even after 5 years of that (the real heavy abusive stuff started while I was pregnant and his daughter (SD19 now) was about to enter high school and lucky us had just hit the Anna-Rexia websites with aplomb. It was crushing. His behavior toward me was frightening. He did not hit me but he threatened me on every other level. I was always in tears.

But here I am years later thinking this was the beginning of HIS crisis which has been covert depression for 5 years. I just found out that he has a ROTTEN TOOTH. Like, seriously, a black tooth in a mouth belonging to a person who has full dental coverage and a 6 figure income. He just let it rot for 5 years. He cared so little.

So on the one hand I have this "friend" who convinced me to "save myself" from an abusive controlling narcissist, and on the other hand I have this feeling that he is a chronically failed MLCer who just can't get through it and needs to do something drastic to do so.

[underpressure]

I even might venture to say my H is LESS narcissistic in MOST ways now, after he moved out, than he was before. Which seems really weird.

[readytofixmyselffirst]

Let's break down this into two issues: The EA was your choice. That was your solution to the problems. I am glad that you find him loathsome because anyone who goes after a married woman/ man is entering into a poor relationship and it always leads to disaster.

Now, you had an EA for a reason. You felt that your spouse was not providing something to your marriage and you sought it outside of the marriage. That was not a good choice and going to a therapist is a good choice.

Now, lets define the emotional abuse and divorce. Is the abuse affecting your health? Is it affecting your children? I am going to say that if you feel that your h has been doing this and it is not changing, then by all means, protect yourself and your child.

But like standing, or having an EA, this is your choice. Rollercoasterrider nor I are not therapists or trained at all. I am giving you my advice. Personally, I would rather stay in an okay marriage for my kids then divorce and start over even if I do meet someone new. My kids are older and they will suffer terribly through the divorce.

It will be something that will hurt them for the rest of their lives. However, that is my opinion and should be taken as such. This forum is for advice. It is not expert advice and in the end, the power of choice is yours ((((hugs))))

[underpressure]

Thanks, readytofixmyselffirst, I agree with you. Everything you have said. I am with you.

When I found this website, I felt a door open up, and for the first time every i was willing to say "I will stand for my marriage against everything". I didn't say that for 5 years while he was treating me so badly because I couldn't make the choice. He made a poor example of a man for my son to follow (treating women like second-class citizens). He would slam the door to his office in his son's face just because he didn't feel like talking, and he was really insensitive to anyone else, even the feelings of a 4 year old. It was NOT healthy. Much of the time.

But sometimes he was wonderful. And the man I loved. My friend(s) would "side" with me though. They wanted to be protective of me. My family too. Everyone noticed his behavior and told me to get out. And I hated this idea. I had tried to get him to go to therapy with me. He refused. I LOVE finding a place where the advice is "go to therapy for both of you then". Finally.

My choice is still to stand. If I make that choice, though, that means I believe he is capable of being more than a narcissistic controlling abuser. He WAS emotionally abusive, but it could have been MONSTER. And it could be part of the MLC. And the depression. And so I am ready to forgive.

Of course my family believes he is a sociopath. So that's what I am up against.

Any others suffer emotional abusive treatment during the MLC prior to BD?

[Stillpraying]

nopressure,
I believe my H has had a narcisitic PD way longer than his crisis.
You can read RCR's response to my thread in the coaching archives if you have access to it.
After reading your post this morning, I went back to a site I found last night and read many more articles.
Here's just 2 of them:

http://www.narcissismfree.com/art_did-the-narcissist-ever-really-love-me.php

http://www.narcissismfree.com/art_when-no-contact-can%27t-work.php

Another good site in learning how to respoond to narcisists is 'narcisism cured'.  This couple have successfully restored their marriage after many therapists told the wife to leave her narcisitc husband as they couldn't be changed.  She didn't change him, but changed the way she responded.

Hugs,
Sp

[Buggy31]

I too believe my H has a PD..and have maintained very limited contact throughout the past 3 years...his manipulations and engagements are frequent unless I limit contact and don't engage.  It has been the best for my sitch.  We interact just for the kids and even that is minimal.  I am on my own with parenting.  He is going through the motions.  I have come to accept this and understand that maintaining a R with their father is important.  I listen to them closely and talk to them a lot to make sure things are going well.  Emotional abuse is very tricky because the scars are not so visible but it is controling and hard.  HUGS to you
BUGS

[StillStanding]

A couple of thoughts:
First, I wanted to rebut the idea that there is "an exception to Standing"; Standing is always a choice, and there can never be an exception to making a choice. People have held fast to damaging, destructive marriages, and people have walked away from otherwise healthy marriages.

As far as abusive behavior from an MLCer goes, it does not have to mean that you have to end your Stand, but I believe that, at the very least, you should develop very strong boundaries about acceptable and unacceptable behavior from your spouse at this time. Emotional abuse and manipulation are very good reasons for No Contact if you can manage it, or going dark if you can't, until the crisis is over or until you decide to end your Stand.

In my personal opinion, any kind of abusive behavior would be a "deal-breaker." The Bible teaches that marriage is God bringing two people together to complete each other and be fruitful, but we also have free will and can make choices that are harmful to ourselves or not pleasing to God. Physical, emotional, or sexual abuse would be evidence that the relationship that you are in is not the one that God would have for you.

It sounds like there is much more than simple MLC going on in your life. I would really recommend talking to your therapist about this; abusers and controllers have an uncanny knack for finding partners who will take the abuse. And there is always the danger that abuse will escalate, especially when you start pushing back. I'm a little worried that you think your friend "guided you into an affair"; no one can make you do something like that against your will. Similarly, it's not the responsibility of anyone here to tell you whether or not you should end your Stand, because we don't have to live with the consequences of that decision. You do.

And finally? None of us know with perfect clarity that our actions are the correct ones. Even though I choose to Stand, and even though I believe that my wife and I will end up together, there are too many uncontrollable factors; first and foremost, our spouses. My wife could come out of her crisis yet choose not to reconcile; perhaps she feels I can never forgive her for what she's done, or she never learns to forgive herself. There are the day-to-day risks of the real world, as well; a fatal illness or lethal car crash could end our Stands for us.

The only thing we can do is take this time to learn more about ourselves and what goes into being well, and learn more about what being in a healthy, fruitful marriage entails. Then, if we get the opportunity to work towards reconciliation with our spouses, we can build a better marriage.

[underpressure]

Thanks you guys for the really thoughtful replies.

Stillpraying: I find such inspiration in the act of making the relationship with the narcissist work. I am so tired of hearing "dump him" type admonitions. "in sickness and in health" is what I remember vowing to. Thank-you! I read those articles and found them encouraging.

Buggy: Your story sounds very familiar. I hope your H has a chance to change, or heal, from whatever is driving his PD. I am really starting to see what I THINK is progress in my H's own behavior. He is starting to listen when I question him about the quality of parental attention he gives, etc. He is starting to examine his life.

However, I still am not certain what to make of my situation. I did suffer emotional abuse, but was it because my H is a narcissist or is it because he was deeply depressed (he has been depressed before, clinically, for a number of years), or if he is going through some kind of long-drawn out MLC which caused the bad behavior. What is confusing is that after BD he has seemingly changed. Or is he just manipulating me? HE has not withdrawn the petition for dissolution. He is working on answering interrogatories today, just after we made love.

I wish there were more reliable "Checklists" or something that would help me be sure. I will read your stories more closely. Thanks!

StillStanding: I love your point. It's a choice no matter what. Yes. I guess what I want is a perfect guide to the forest of my H's behavior. And mine, too. MLC is clearly the case with ME, last summer, and perhaps still now, although to a much lesser extent. My H resists therapy completely. As he opens up to me, I fear MLC less, but that doesn't change his determination to start a new life without us. And that's the part that seems crazy.