[LisaLives]

Because I have always been a rebel here, I figured I would just start the thread.  And as I have always told RCR, it is her forum and she can censure me as she sees fit!  For those who don't know me, I am a three year veteran in the MLC war, a 2-year member of this forum, and I never called myself a stander.  BUT I DO RESPECT STANDERS, and part of me truly wishes I had it in me, so I follow many stories here with envy, fascination and more than a little healthy jealousy.  I stopped by Learning's thread to give her some public support for her interest in dating, and I saw a similar discussion on DGU's thread. 

Rather than hijack, I figured I would put it out there for its own discussion.  After much soul searching and healing, I have come to the conclusion that the ONLY thing I can't get from other people, men, or women, outside an intimate partnership is sex and true intimacy with a person of the opposite sex.  I can have fun, be loved and feel support from my friends.  But in deciding whether I could STAND for my M for any length of time, I had to decide if I wanted to forgo sex and intimacy until he DECIDES I might be a better option.  And I don't want to.  And ultimately, this is the heart of the issue we dance around here, when we talk about dating and moving on.   

I believe sexuality is a gift, and just plain fun.  I was pretty starved in my M and I don't see any good reason to sacrifice that part of myself at a point in my life when I have never felt better about who I am.  It's sad that exH is missing this part of me, but he never really appreciated it.  And to be totally honest, I can actually see myself open to the idea of returning to my M in five or 10 years having known a far better sexual relationship than I ever had in my M.  But, if you are a person who looks at sex differently-- as a sacrament only enjoyed in marriage, or if your marriage was totally fulfilling in that regard and you can't dream of ever enjoying that with another, then standing becomes a lot easier. 

And then there is the issue of true cross-gender intimacy.  Soul baring conversations with a person of the opposite sex are not possible outside an intimate relationship.  I can get a lot of that from girlfriends, but if you don't know what I mean about having a man who keeps your secrets, then you have never known true intimacy.  The kind of relationship that we call an EA is exactly that, and you can't do it with your friends' husbands, we know that.  I can get close with some of my gay friends, but it's not the same as post-coital pillow talk and having someone hold you when you cry. 

I am 45 years old, and MLC can take a LONG time.  I would NEVER encourage anyone not to stand, but I would encourage EVERYONE to live their life wholly and completely--NOW.  There are lots of stories of people coming back to their first spouses after failed second marriages, and even third.  And I do know many people who got stuck in permanent MLC.  I also have to acknowledge another moral reality.  My exH MARRIED OW.  In my value system, and when I look at what I want in a partner, I want someone who will make the best of what he has.  By marrying OW and making vows to her, and in effect, her two young children, when my exH starts to emerge from the tunnel, if he becomes the man I hope he can be, he will look at his situation and make the best of it.  I could never hope that he would crush her and her kids like he did me and mine.  Of course I could hold hope that she dumps him, but even then, I am hanging my life on the actions of someone I don't even respect, or really wish to know about.  And I have to TRULY examine the person I am--how much forgiveness could I extend, and how much remorse would it take?  Am I willing to hang my CURRENT life satisfaction on a possibility of a happy future, knowing that life can change on a dime and there are no guarantees? 

And finally, we talk a lot about standing for ourselves and healing and getting a life.  But to what end?  When an athlete has a serious injury, they DO NOT sit out their sport.  Their therapy will put them right back into doing things they used to do, so they can do it again.  Most of our spouses are out their exercising their relationship muscles, for better, or worse.  If they choose to come back, it will be because they did not find something better.  I would argue, your relationship muscles are atrophied if you have never even sought another R.  You can read and think and talk all you want, but until you experience a man telling you you're beautiful or a woman who speaks her mind, until you learn another way to compromise or resolve an argument, I would argue, you will have no idea how to create the R you really want. 

And yes, it is my opinion, but no one can tell me I have not LEARNED in dating post-MLC.  Some of the things are tiny, and some are huge.  I wrote a post here a long time ago that it's like buying a new wardrobe.  Most of us had the same clothes for years, until they disappeared.  Now we are naked, and shopping, having followed no fashion trends.  So you go to the store and for the first time you look at all the new things, and you realize your post-baby hips and changed hair color are better suited to other styles.  What if you see the clothes you always dreamed of, but when you try them on you realize they are just not comfortable.  And then you see something on sale that you never would have considered and it looks kinda ugly on the hanger, but when you try it on, you realize it's just you.  And then when your old clothes reappear, will you want them back?  At least you have a basis to make an informed decision.   

And GALing.  This is my opinion too, but no one will ever convince me that you can ever GAL if your main objective is standing for your marriage.  That simple thought erases so many others.  It closes doors and causes you to ignore windows, psychologically.  You can talk all you want about not having expectations, but you do.  Your expectation is that someday in the future, you will be reunited with your MLCer.  And the reason I know this to be true is that even though I resist standing, a part of me still wants that.  With every action I take to break that tie, I feel the pull and the conflict.  I knowingly took up a hobby he despises and made friends who support me in that.  It has enriched me immeasurably, but I do think it might be unforgivable to him.  Can you, will you, consider a new career, a move, or a date from a handsome gentleman that could be a huge gift from God--if at the back of your mind lies the thought, "what would my MLCer think?" 

So I would never try to convincce anyone not to stand, but define standing for YOU and your situation.  If it takes 10 years for your MLCer to return and he or she can't forgive you a dozen bad first dates, will you really be able to forgive them?  And if one of those dozen dates turns into a one-year R that convinces you that you really do want to wait for your ex, do you really think that will hinder your reconciliation?  Or what if MAYBE you find a new and better love, matched to the person you are now, and you have five happy years before you lose them to cancer and then you reunite with your ex, will you be a worse person for it?  And think about it from the view of the universe.  I look around here and see amazing men and women, and people looking for people just like you, with patience and understanding, compassion and kindness.  Perhaps, they deserve you.  How selfish of you to withhold your gifts from the rest of humanity? 

To love at all is to be vulnerable. Love anything, and your heart will certainly be wrung and possibly be broken. If you want to make sure of keeping it intact, you must give your heart to no one, not even to an animal. Wrap it carefully round with hobbies and little luxuries; avoid all entanglements; lock it up safe in the casket or coffin of your selfishness.--C.S. Lewis

[OldPilot]

  And as I have always told RCR, it is her forum and she can censure me as she sees fit! 

You will not get censured here unless you use obscene words that can not pass the auto censor. And even then you can still type them they just print out differently.
Or if you start spamming us then you might get banned but I see nothing wrong with what you have written.
We just like people to be polite and respectful of others.

My exH MARRIED OW.  In my value system, and when I look at what I want in a partner, I want someone who will make the best of what he has.  By marrying OW and making vows to her, and in effect, her two young children, when my exH starts to emerge from the tunnel, if he becomes the man I hope he can be, he will look at his situation and make the best of it.  I could never hope that he would crush her and her kids like he did me and mine. 

Good point, I agree.
I have always maintained that you were STANDING for YOU and, in your case I can respect what you are doing!

I think you have made some excellent points IMHO.

[Phoenix]

I've missed you LL. So glad to see your recent posts and such a powerful one here. I understand where you are coming from completely and appreciate your candor about a subject many of us ultimately keep pushing down into the recesses of "someday." 

I wish you every happiness in ALL aspects of your life.

Warmly,
Phoenix

[hobo1]

LisaLives

I absolutely agree with every word you wrote.  I love my exW dearly, but if I close the door to dating, how do I know if she is the best suited for me, and the best person for me to share the remainder of my life with? 

I too have learned a lot from dating.  And yes, numerous bad first dates.

When we first met, we were over 2 decades younger, our style, preferences, likes and dislikes all change.  If we close the door to dating, how do we know that there isn't someone so much better than our ex's, just waiting to be discovered, someone who is more compatible and who can bring us joy for the rest of our lives.

I am now 44, MLC does take a long time, with no guarantees.  I'm making the best decision for me.  I also agree that if I am living my life to the fullest (GAL'ing) as IF they are not coming back, then why am I not dating?

Yes, standing is a personal decision.  If in 7 to 10 years, my exW decides to come back, I will then choose if reconciling our M would be the best choice for me then.  Healing and working on SELF are still on the agenda, but it doesn't need to be mutually exclusive from dating.   

[Anjae]

Hi Lisa,

Nice to see you back. Like you I’m not a stander. The difference is that I remain legally married to Mr J.

I’ve dated and had a boyfriend. I took miss sexual intimacy and that is something I want in my life.

Standing for me is for ourselves. If the marriage can make it, fine, if not, since we make it, fine. 

Agree, we can choose to reconcile latter on with our MLCer if we want to. If we don’t want to, we don’t have to.

To me it is not even a question of the MLCer forgive us a few dates or a sweetheart. Inn my view there is nothing, in that regard, for the MLCer to forgive us. Forgive us what? That when they were living their life with someone else, married or not to us, we dated?...

If a one year relationship convince us we want to reconcile with our ex, if the ex also wants to reconcile with us, I’m certain there will be a reconciliation. The one year relationship may also make us realise the new person is better suited for the new us, or make want to stay single for a while.

It will depend of the relationship and of us.

[Finding Hope]

Lisa,

If I didnt know better, you've read my mind. I wonder about all those things that you've written. Standing, yes that's what Im doing. Im 55 and wonder exactly how many years I have left. Do I wait for something that might never happen. I take my vowels seriously but he threw them away. Put them and me out with the garbage.

I live with my MLC'er so it does changes things a bit. Yes we do talk about healing, Galing, becoming a better, stronger person. Expectations, I totally agree, we have them. We are standing because we do have them. Theres no way around that.

Yes, MLC takes along time, do I want to wake up one day and realize that I wasted the last years of my life for someone who NEVER came around. These are the things that Im dealing with right now.

Im so glad that someone has finally put this out there. Its said, life is short. Live everyday like its your last. Is this what I want the last of my days to look like. Never feeling the warmth of someone next to me, never feel that kiss. Never to be able to tell that one person all thats in your heart.

This is my struggle, and it weights me down so much that I think Im going to drown.

Thank you, thank you, thank you for bringing this topic up. I will wait to see what others think

FH

[Returned]

LisaLives I want you to know that I totally relate to many of the things you have said in your post.

Interestingly sex in my marriage was quite good, although perhaps not as frequent as I would have liked. I could never initiate. The loss of sex is perhaps something I could put up with for a while, although not for years. Eventually my will power just fades out.

However cross gender intimacy is something I totally "get". My social life consisted of my husband and my husbands friends. Honestly in a traditional country I have little basis for building strong female friendships because of the lack of shared interests. I have no interest in shopping, birthday parties, and other traditional activities, as I would rather sit around with the guys and talk politics. This is not possible for a single woman here, but for a woman with a partner it is. Thus I have formed a partnership with a man, which allows me to go out at least occasionally to social activities which would otherwise be difficult for me to access. Will this "partnership" turn into a relationship? Hard to say as he is a confirmed bachelor but it sure makes my life easier to have someone I can turn to.

I can also relate to what you say about the world having changed....a lot. I am still blinking. There seem to be a lot of people out there who think it is fashionable to treat stable relationships are passe. I think stable relationships are....wonderful. I certainly hope I find myself in one sooner rather than later.

[Alwaysthere]

I also have to acknowledge another moral reality.  My exH MARRIED OW.  In my value system, and when I look at what I want in a partner, I want someone who will make the best of what he has.  By marrying OW and making vows to her, and in effect, her two young children, when my exH starts to emerge from the tunnel, if he becomes the man I hope he can be, he will look at his situation and make the best of it.  I could never hope that he would crush her and her kids like he did me and mine. 

.

LisaLives I truly respect you for this.

[LearningIamOk]

Lisa, thank you for your very thought provoking post. I appreciate your honesty and candor. I know my thread is the catalyst for this. My pages are running very fast due to the topic.

I agree completely about the time frames. MLC can take so long and we don't know how much time we have. Do we truly want to waste it sitting around for "someday"? I am 53 yrs old. I still have my health and am able to do most anything I want to.

I also would NEVER encourage some one to not Stand. Standing has allowed me to gain myself back. I had no idea how much of myself I had lost over time. Standing means different things at different times. In the beginning it was to recover my M. But that takes 2 willing people. So far H is not willing. Now I use it solely as a Grace Period for my healing.

How long do I wait for a man who is really interested in nothing and no one? He is content to be
alone. I am the only one who can answer that. And I will just know when the time is up.

[osb]

This is a fascinating thread, and a painful topic I don't know how to address.

I live with my MLC'er so it does changes things a bit. Yes we do talk about healing, GALing, becoming a better, stronger person. Expectations, I totally agree, we have them. We are standing because we do have them. ..... It's said, life is short. Live everyday like it's your last. Is this what I want the last of my days to look like. Never feeling the warmth of someone next to me, never feel that kiss. Never to be able to tell that one person all that's in your heart. .....This is my struggle, and it weights me down so much that I think I'm going to drown.

FH, I'm also struggling with this just now. My H lives at home... in the guest room, which I'm not allowed to enter... hugs are carefully parcelled out, but if H feels himself even slightly aroused or intimate, he drops me like a stone and runs like a rabbit to his room. He says this won't ever change for him. I'm still waiting. He's human and may yet change; and if H were physically sick, my needs would wait, so they'll wait now. But there's got to be a time limit to living an underloved, celibate life with one's partner, like two toddlers playing alongside each other. Life is to be lived, and loved. There will be an endpoint to the stalemate, one way or the other. I won't tell my H this for now (the need's mine, and unspoken); but someday I might have to.