[Rollercoasterider]

TrustandLove,

My own definition of guilt: what you feel if you’ve done something that goes against your own personal code of behaviour.

Exactly…this is my definition too—in different words!

He actively says that he feels guilty, but doesn’t do anything, saying that he’s felt guilty enough, he’s cried enough, and he’s just not going to do it any more, as guilt is a useless emotion. If I’ve got it right, that’s still Escape and Avoid. They continue to Escape and Avoid in order to not face their guilt, or because of their guilt?

Both—I think they are the same thing. One creates the other and thus they feed off of each other.

I use the words “because of” because of what I read in my CBT book -- guilt is good if you own up to what you have done and work to find a solution, otherwise, since it is an unpleasant emotion, you keep looking for ways to not feel it, so you keep finding reasons to justify your behaviour.

In my opinion, healthy guilt is good—period. What is positive or negative is what a person does with it—how they handle it. The outcome is positive—good—good if you own up to what you have done and work to find a solution.

Holding onto guilt either by dismissing and thus suppressing or repressing it or wallowing in it, is unhealthy—it is the reactions/actions not the guilt that are unhealthy.

Is there a good response when he talks about feeling guilt? For when he says that it is a useless emotion? I’ve been trying to distill what that CBT books says about it into a soundbite, but it keeps on escaping me.

It says:

The less guilt you have, the more effectively you can correct the problem. If you feel guilty, you tend to react defensively and counterattack because the feeling of being a “bad person” is so odious. Guilt engages you in a coverup operation; you close your ears to any criticism because you can’t bear to be wrong because it feels so terrible.

If you admit your wrong action and seek to change, you don’t have to think of yourself as bad.

To relieve guilt, one needs to ask oneself:

• did I consciously and willfully do something ‘‘bad”, “unfair” or needlessly hurtful that I shouldn’t have? (or am I irrationally expecting myself to be perfect , all-knowing and all-powerful)
• ask if I am labelling myself a bad or tainted person because of this action?
• Am I feeling a realistic regret or remorse, which results from an empathic awareness of the negative impact of my action?
• Am I learning from my error and developing a strategy for change? Or am I ruminating non-productively or continuing with even more destructive behaviour?

There are a variety of ways to address this depending on each individual and on how the conversation begins.

I’m not doing it anymore. I’ve been feeling all this guilt for leaving you. It’s a useless emotion and has gotten me nowhere but feeling worse. I’ve cried enough.

Validate their feelings: guilt is unpleasant and can be overwhelming.
Then give information or ask questions. Here are some ideas.

• Expert Knowledge: But it doesn’t work that way. Guilt doesn’t just go away because you don’t want it or don’t like it. That makes it worse, not better.
• I know you: But that hasn’t worked for you has it? You say you are now refusing to feel guilty. But you still do and you wonder why. You wonder why you don’t feel better. You stuff it away and you still feel bad. I guess dismissing it is not the way to get rid of guilt.
• Empathize: I’ve tried that too. I tried pretending it didn’t exist, dismissing it, forgetting about it…those things only made me feel worse because I felt more guilty.

Follow up with information about resolving guilt—it is nonspecific.
Your guilt will remain as long as you continue to go against your personal code. Until you make amends, your guilt will not release you and you will not release it. You are still feeling guilty because you are continuing the actions that go against your personal code. You’re betraying your Self.

[Still]

I also think wearing my wedding ring causes my H to feel guilt. He hasn't worn his in a 1 1/2 years. When we are out as a family, I see him looking at my hand from time to time. I think it perpetuates his feeling of being trapped.

I AM married. I don't want to remove my ring. I maintain my vows to him.

I know some on other sites have said that a wedding ring is given to you as a vow from another. If they no longer live like a married person, your ring no longer has the same meaning. I have always looked at it as my vow to my husband.

[Trustandlove]

Thank you, RCR -- that was very clear and what I was out after. 

[In this for ME]

That's a statement by him I have heard over and over again
I am not a bad person.

I let it go for a while because I felt if I addressed it he would look at it like an attack.
So I've waited and when I saw the opportunity I told him:

You are not a bad person.

And stopped short of saying just arrogant and irresposible and selfish and stubborn and tearing your family apart and a ton of other negitive things.

When he sent me the email about OW having to stay at the house until they found her a place to live he stated

I'm not doing anything bad here.

That one almost sent me over the edge but I reigned my fury in and told him I understood and respected the fact that he was accepting responsibilty for a situation he felt he was resposible for.

Just about killed me to do that.

I have also told him he has nothing to feel guilty about when it comes to me. I did this hoping for an outcome which was him being able to function with the kids again. He wouldn't even come to the house for this last 4 months to spend any time as his guilt kept him away.

Now he's offered to come for Thanksgiving. I was kind of hoping for a lesser event in which to have dinner like maybe he could stop in for Tacos some night but Lord knows that's not him. He has to do it BIG if it has to be done.

Mind you he hasn't asked for forgiveness and I didn't offer or say I forgave him I just wanted to take the pressure off him in the guilt department,

What I''ve been trying to do is exactly the opposite of what I had done. My biggest problem is I don't know if this is really me..or am I being manipulitive?

[With Gods Help!]

Found this article thought it may help others although this one is based around pregnancy i feel the article relates to everyone sitch xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 
Edited to add source link.
http://www.survivingbetrayal.com/component/content/article/54-guilt-and-remorse

Distinguishing the difference between feelings of guilt and remorse can be crucial to the both spouses understanding of the healing process. In this article we explore the differences and their implications for recovery. 

Not long after my partner confessed his affair to me and told me about the other womans pregnancy, he fell into a deep depression. He was a nightmare to live with and we came very close to ending it there and then. I could never put my finger on exactly what it was that drove me crazy about that time until one of our forum members posted the following to explain the difference between guilt and remorse.


It had always seemed to me that the guilt my husband felt had very much more to do with his pain and his loss rather than for any pain or loss he caused me and that lead to a great deal of resentment on my part and a delay in our recovery of some time. I should explain that when I say his pain and his loss, i do not mean any pain he experienced in the "break up" of the affair, rather the pain he suffered when he realized that he was not the person that he had always thought he was. His self image was changed and not for the better.

I think it is relatively normal for a wayward spouse to go through a period of guilt, where they realize in one of those inconvenient moments of clarity, just how far into the gutter they have allowed themselves to fall BUT an emotionally mature person, one who really is committed to gaining back what they stand on the verge of losing, will work to move beyond that, face up to the realities of the situation and find true remorse.

I wish every formally wayward spouse well on this journey. For those who need some direction, the following may be helpful;

•Real remorse means seeing the pain you caused someone, and reaching out to make it better. Feeling bad for the person in pain.
•A person who feels guilt rather than remorse sees the pain of others (that they inflicted) as judgment, condemnation, and feels bad for themselves. What they feel for the person in pain is anger - anger for showing them what they don't want to see (the consequences of their actions).
•Someone who feels remorse for doing a bad thing will always consider the thing they did to be bad.
•Bad feelings associated with guilt are situational, and change with circumstances.
•Someone really remorseful doesn't want to repeat a harmful action - they aren't even tempted to. Real remorse means never doing it again, self accountability.
•Someone who feels guilty can still repeat the actions causing the guilt, precisely to escape the guilt. The only way to end feelings of guilt is self accountability - guilt happens when someone runs from it.
•Remorse says "I'm sorry I hurt you".
•Guilt says "stop making me feel bad for what I did".
•Remorse cares more about the one wounded. They don't care about others holding them accountable because they already hold themselves accountable.
•Guilt worries more about how the wounded one makes them appear in the eyes of others. They feel their self image is being attacked. They do worry about others holding them accountable because they shirk self accountability.
•Remorse means learning from one's harmful actions.
•Guilt means not even facing what one has done, so learning from it isn't likely.
•Remorse means leaving the harmful actions one did in the past, but not forgetting them.
•Guilt carries harmful actions around, keeping them ever present, by attempting to avoid dealing with them. They will always be ever present, a thorn in ones side, looming large and affecting one's life until faced and dealt with. This is self inflicted torture - although a person struggling with guilt will blame others.
•Remorse leads to the ability to forgive the self.
•Guilt leads to self hatred.
•Remorse is action, actively doing something about the harm one caused.
•Guilt is feeling self pity and doing nothing about the harm one caused.
 
 

[With Gods Help!]

 thought this applied to all the mlcers after BD    Someone who feels guilty can still repeat the actions causing the guilt, precisely to escape the guilt. The only way to end feelings of guilt is self accountability - guilt happens when someone runs from it.

[Rebel Yell]

Good one. It helps to clarify things even more.
Definitely guilt not remorse!

[xyzcf]

Thanks for posting that WGH...when I first discovered the affair my H looked me straight in the face and told me he felt no shame, guilt or remorse..from a Catholic alter boy? Really?

About 8 months later when he was home on business, I asked him why he couldn't look me in the eye and he hung his head and muttered shame, shame, shame..I hugged him to me and told him...no shame.

5 months later, he tells me he doesn't want to be married to me anymore and he seems quite determined to go that route.

I wonder sometimes if the guilt that he feels is what he thinks has caused irreparible damage between us....it was so out of character for him to do that and he admitted that he wished I had not found out..yet he blurted it out the moment I asked innocently  "is there somebody else?"

So one of my many fears (I know, I'm working on letting them go) is that he cannot forgive himself thus he is running as  far away as possible and in some ways punishing himself.

I find it far easier to forgive his affair than his deserting our family.

You are a very wise and wonderful forgiving woman..I am so glad that your husband made it back to you. Do not worry about the baby....that little one is innocent in all this and I think your heart is large enough that you'll by ok..it will bite a bit, but you'll be ok.

That's what God is trying to tell us...to live our lives being able to forgive those who have hurt us.

[In this for ME]

I don't know why but I'm sure that's it. My ExH keeps saying "find a GOOD man" Makes me want to srangle him.
I think that in the aftermath they feel we are too good for them.

A while ago before the BD he was saying things like "I'm not a bad man"..almost to himself. Then the focus on "his happiness" came into play which he thought was the OW.

Now that she's at least out of our former family home some of the devastaion
can be healed hopefully through the girls first.

I am in no rush for him and I

I am a nervous wreck. I really don't know if I can throw my heart out there again if it's required.
And to be honset with you I don't know what the heck remorse on his part looks like.

If it's actions; he did manage to make her leave even though he says "she did this so I could have my kids back" Like she's some kind of saint..God it Pisses me off to no end.

I had two other relationships do this to me one was my first marrage which lasted 6 years and the other was just the rebound relationship after the first divorce and I'm telling you this is killing me.

I just can't get past the thought of his hands touched someone else and other things.

 He NEVER in 1 million years would I have thought of everything or anything he could do would do this!
Wish he had just beaten me with a baseball bat at least that might have healed faster.

[xyzcf]

Awww ITFTLH..you are worth far more than this pain. 

I really don't know if I can throw my heart out there again if it's required.

Why would you have to? Can we not just be content with ourselves. I know, it's very hard..I just don't know that I would allow myself to trust anyone again..but for me it's more about my own belief about being married to my Beloved.

The healing will occur..it can take longer I think if we try and resist it, it can also take longer if we don't allow it to reach into our inner most selves to find out where the pain is attached to.

There is no reason or rhyme for why they would take this route..I wish mine would have only done something like get a fancy sports car..unfortunately, we already had that!

Betrayal..it's programed into our DNA that that is a very big NO NO...forgiveness though has been programmed into our soul and if we can forgive, we shall in turn grow as humans, understanding weakness and imperfection..but truly understanding love.

Big hug..I shudder at your use of the words being hit by a baseball bat..yet, I understand, the pain from this is far deeper than physical pain....it's pain in every cell, every thought and right to our core. But, it is in this pain that I know that I am alive. Not sure my Beloved feels anything let alone being alive...so what kind of hell might that be?