[LearningIamOk]

I don't know how I have missed this thread. Albatross, this is fascinating material. It helps me to understand more clearly why my xH ended up with who he chose. I understand my xH's Shadow more completely. I am concerned about myself, however, as I don't feel any repressed needs or wants or "Dark Side" to my nature. That can't be correct if we all have one. I am far from perfect, but I am concerned for my own growth that I don't see it.

[superdog]

Hey init, albatross will correct me if I am way off here, but what you say about doing something you may regret is recognising that you have a shadow that is capable of doing/ saying something that is wrong, or perceived by society etc as being wrong.

I wouldn't say it is the opposite of who you are necessarily but of who you ALSO are but your conscious mind keeps it in check. I believe that every one of us has the capability to do what our mlcer has done, but we have overruled that shadow side we possess or brought it to life, recognised it and have not allowed it to rule.

Maybe I am talking rubbish, but that is my understanding.

Sd
X

[Pixiegirl]

Attaching to this! Very interesting Albatross.

[Albatross]

I wouldn't say it is the opposite of who you are necessarily but of who you ALSO are but your conscious mind keeps it in check. I believe that every one of us has the capability to do what our mlcer has done, but we have overruled that shadow side we possess or brought it to life, recognised it and have not allowed it to rule.

Exactly, we are both worlds, shadow and light, we should embrace both of them. When One recognize own shadow is big achievement. Embracing both worlds giving lower aberration between them. People who goes to the extreme light possess same big shadow.

Being too good producing repressing self and building bigger shadow, combine that without expressing feelings lead to disaster.

[Albatross]

SOME WISE QUOTES ABOUT SHADOW

"If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you."

"The Shadow cannot be eliminated. It is the ever-present dark brother or sister. Whenever we fail to see where it stands, there is likely to be trouble afoot. For then it is certain to be standing behind us. The adequate question therefore never is: Have I a shadow problem? Have I a negative side? But rather: Where does it happen to be right now? When we cannot see it, it is time to beware! And it is helpful to remember Jung's formulation that a complex is not pathological per se. It becomes pathological only when we assume that we do not have it; because then IT HAS US!"
- Edward C. Whitmont -

 Depth psychology has presented us with the undeniable wisdom that the enemy is constructed from denied aspects of the self. Therefore, the radical commandment "Love your enemy as yourself" points the way toward both self-knowledge and peace. We do, in fact, love or hate our enemies to the same degree that we love or hate ourselves. In the image of the enemy, we will find the mirror in which we may see our own face most clearly.
- Sam Keen -

 Shadow work leads to a practice I refer to as the pursuit of the unhypocritical life, which some might call living with integrity.
- Jeremiah Abrahms -

 To practice lightside/dark side thinking is to practice holding opposites, a subversive act in our either/or culture. For Jung, this act is a developmental step, the end of a naive all-good view or a cynical all-bad view, which results in a more nuanced perception of reality and a capacity to tolerate paradox and ambiguity. This, too, is one of the promises of shadow-work.
- Connie Zwieg, Ph.D. and Steve Wolf, Ph.D. -

 The Shadow, of course never dies; we always cast a shadow. But how we relate to it, and it to us, depends on whether it is known. Once known, we have inevitably lost an innocence that can never be recovered. What replaces it is a knowledge of the complexity of our nature. Sometimes we are fortunate, and this knowledge elicits a kindness and tolerance in us for others — even, perhaps for ourselves.
- Deena Metzger -


The cave you fear to enter holds the treasure you seek.
- Joseph Campbell -

[JB]

thank you for sharing, Albatross! The post about the shadow side helped me understand H's current behaviours and his choice for OW.

I do have a question (maybe more haha) about your original post true love\toxic fake love. Before BD I had only seen H display 1 maybe 2 of the toxic love traits (I too showed 1 or 2) throughout our entire relationship. Now H is a typical vanisher, so I am not completely sure how many of the true love/toxic love traits he shows with OW. But if we appeared to have true love according to your post then can I still look at my situation and say that H is in MLC mode (hence why he started showing way more toxic love traits after BD) or did we have true love, but something changed and he did actually stop loving me? I mean when H and I do have contact I still feel the connection between us. Our contact is very rare, as H likes to avoid me (has even told me that he wants as little contact with me as possible despite having young children together) but when we do talk its like nothing has happened. Like we are still best friends and whole. I guess my real question is I am trying to understand the connection between the true love/toxic fake love post and MLC. (not hating on the post. It was very thought provoking and brought some clarity to my situation. At least the shadow article brought clarity. Just trying to understand.) Please enlighten me with your wisdom 

[toughtimes]

Great Albatross, thank you for posting.

[in it]

Well I guess I have to practice being more of a b!tc# then..it's a shame you cannot be kind or compassionate to some people You end up misunderstood.

And frankly I don't think I could have done what the ex did. Especially when it comes to destroying a family...however dysfuncional HE thought it was.

The FEAR they operate from is amazing. They create the very thing they fear the most- abandoment. You cannot feel sorry for them!

 Just because the world didn't revolve around him. WAHHH WAHHH!! GROW UP!

I'm pretty sure he has NO IDEA who he has dealt with..and I could give a $h!te less. I wish things had worked out with him and the exow they deserved each other!

[Darth Obo]

I'll probably get 2 x 4rd for this but IMHO women may have a better understanding of what unconditional love is having given birth.

You are comparing apples to oranges here. Loving your children is unconditional; it doesn't matter how bad they screw up; they are still your children and you love them no matter what! I obviously have never given birth and I love both of my kids unconditionally, no matter what they do or fail to do!

As I have stated before, Marriage / LTR is CONDITIONAL! You love and care for the person SO LONG AS they meet or stay within certain conditions / promises of the marital contract:

- No cheating / remain monogamous
- Treated fairly and with kindness / compassion
- meeting each others needs
- etc.

Break or fail to do any of these, or any others not listed, and you risk breaking that love!

IMHO  I do feel men a have a really hard time understanding the concept. Conditions follow in regards to them showing love or appreciation. I feel they put a lot more emphasis on sex than is necessary.

Well, what is a marriage anyway? What makes a marriage different than another very similar close relationship? It's primarily sex / physical intimacy! Yes, there are emotional and other needs to be met, but let's be honest, in marriage you expect the sexual relationship to be exclusive & monogamous and frequent enough to meet those needs. You can have a very close male friend that you use as an "emotional tampon" to meet those needs but not be having sex with him! This is why you see women leaning on that beta guy that's in the "friend zone" for all her emotional support, but she gives sex to the alpha "@$$hole" that makes her tingle! In short, marriage places exclusive sex in the relationship in addition to the emotional needs!

Generally speaking, "sexless" marriages is a deal breakers for all but few men. Unlike the typical female where sex is the outgrowth of the emotional connection & bond that leads to the physical bond, men get a majority of the emotional connection through physical intimacy; it is during sex that our primary pair bonding chemical , Vasopressin, is released which is the primary male bonding chemical!

http://www.darionardi.com/BulletinArt9.html

Vasopressin is made in the brain. Both men and women make it. However, the male hormone testosterone synergizes with vasopressin – the two greatly enhance each other. A woman and man might have equal levels of vasopressin but the man experiences stronger effects. Physically, vasopressin causes water retention and high blood pressure; high levels may increase forehead size. Personality wise, vasopressin influences male social and sexual behavior, public communication, and paternal behavior. In animals (mammals), it promotes aggression, territorial competition and dominance with other males. It bonds males to mates and children. For men, it also promotes partner recognition, sexual arousal, courtship behavior, monogamy, pair bonding and mate guarding. Vasopressin also improves cognitive ability by enhancing memory. It allows one to feel separate, with dampened emotional responses and more “sensible” or “reasonable” behavior. Depressed people also have higher vasopressin.

Vasotocin is a variation of vasopressin found in fish, birds and frogs. It promotes vocalization, singing, mating calls and territorial behavior. It causes male animals to respond to the sight of attractive females. It is found in the human visual system (pineal gland), and male human bonding tends to be more visual. This might explain why adolescent boys of all types are often preoccupied with images of beautiful potential mates!

Interesting little point about the visual aspect of male human bonding, heh? This is why if you do any drastic physical changes (new short haircut, weight gain or too much weight loss, etc) can affect your man's attractiveness and appeal towards you depending on what he finds visually appealing! We are initially attracted to you based on our physical assessment of you and whether or not we want to have sex with you! Generally speaking, if we are not physically attracted to you, we have no desire to explore a romantic relationship with you! I know it sounds piggish, but that's just how men are biologically driven!

Vasopressin is released during sex. So, in short, no or limited sex, then the less vasopressin we have in our system. The less vasopressin, the less our pair bond is to you! Sexless marriage = no bond with you!!!

So yea, we do put a lot of emphasis on sex if you want us to stick around and maintain a lasting bond with you!

Call me a pig but at least I am honest! 


DO

[Slow Fade]

Generally speaking, "sexless" marriages is a deal breakers for all but few men. Unlike the typical female where sex is the outgrowth of the emotional connection & bond that leads to the physical bond, men get a majority of the emotional connection through physical intimacy; it is during sex that our primary pair bonding chemical , Vasopressin, is released which is the primary male bonding chemical!

Vasopressin is released during sex. So, in short, no or limited sex, then the less vasopressin we have in our system. The less vasopressin, the less our pair bond is to you! Sexless marriage = no bond with you!!!

D.O my H will be undergoing a radical prostatectomy in 4 weeks. Chances are he will be impotent for quite a while if not for life. What will "bond" us together through the reconnecting stage we are going through now, not to mention the rebuilding stage we face in the future? Are you suggesting it is hopeless for us?