[UKStander]

I think this is one of the most complex and possibly fascinating threads I've yet come across on this site. Many, many topics all intertwined though! A lot to read.

Regarding 'boundaries', whatever I said when I last wrote, I wasn't implying a need for endless understanding and pity for the poor old MLCer.  I think that that rightly concerned Stayed and OP, for it suggesetd UK had her boundaries WAY down. 

I don't know really know how to explain this better, and maybe there is always a pinch of self-justification in what every one of us says (and what I'm about to say now), BUT I believe I do have good boundaries, despite my sympathy towards MLC-ers. They're fairly quiet and invisible boundaries, but they're there. I'm not fawning all over him and ready to act nurse maid if he comes limping back. BUT having spent way way too long reading up on MLC, and all related subjects (curiosity is in my nature) I can't help feeling sorry for him because I know now what causes MLC back when the MLC-ers were small(er). 

MLC isn't a case of a would-be bachelor(ette) on a personal hedonism fest. It looks that way on the surface, but we all know there's more going on. 

If the lbs remains in angry towards the MLC-er, isn't it possible that the lbs has a fuzzy boundary - i.e. still allowing the crisis to affect them when in fact it's not their crisis? 

Jumbled thoughts,

UK

[living with Hope]

Today's posting by Moment really touched something within today.

It was the concept of pleasure.  I have had lots of seconds lost thinking about how much fun my husband is having in his new life while I deal with the homes, the cars, the yard, the teenagers, the dogs, finding employment...basically all the responsibility and accountability while he went from sharing that to having none.  Not forgetting the pain and loss and missing that I live with.

I have had people telling me he must be in his own personal hell, how could he be having fun.  I never was 100 percent convinced that he wasn't.  He goes to a pub almost every night to eat. He has been on trips, he has had numerous women tucked in with his steady one, the partying, the drugs....the list goes on.  He can be who he either imagines himself to be or who he really is now living this life because he has all new friends and hobbies (drugs/alcohol and watching soccer - he is obsessed with soccer)  He only fit his family in when it suited him or I guess if he was lonely. 

This point by Mr J. spoke to me.  It is like an addiction. As all addictions, there is pleasure or you wouldn't go back for more.   I have seen a few exchanges between my husband and her where she accuses him of being addicted to her.  That she is just a toy for his pleasure.  This is what is bringing him happiness right now - pleasure.

My husband told me at the beginning of July that he was not happy.  So he needed to divorce me.  He flip flopped on that for the next 4 hours to only a week later decide we never had that conversation.  That we are getting a divorce.  He has since completely cut me out. I am dead to him.  But the whole entire conversation always was around his need for happiness.    In reading J's point, that is what screamed out to me - my husband is equating his pleasure he feels from partaking in this new lifestyle of partying, sex, free spending on non existant funds, no responsibilities as happiness.

I read that posting and it hurt. I know the truth of the situation. He spoke it real to Moment.  It is what I have thought the entire time as I watched my husband leave that morning to start his new life with a bounce in his step and glee in his face as i sat on a chair absolutely destroyed.  This whole crisis of my husband's has been about finding happiness  for him.

I too have moments of pure happiness and pleasue throughout this journey.  I think the difference is that they don't come from attempts to mask pain (alcohol, sex, drugs, shopping...whatever vices there are).  I have not been that lost in my pain that I have missed the rainbows. (and trust me I have been lost!!!) As I am sure all of you have had moments of pleasure throughout your journey. 

As UKStander wrote that she can't help feeling sorry for her MLC'er and that she had quiet and invisible boundaries for her spouse.  I think I fall in that same category.

 I can't find any anger toward my spouse that would last longer than the seconds I think about it.  I feel for him.  I know the essance of him. He has a great heart, generous and giving soul, he loved us deeply.  This person he evolved into does not reflect his inner soul.  I know he is tortured.  I have had many conversations leading up to bomb drop about that.  I see it in his face, his actions.  It can't be easy to be him.

But that being said, I am not sure that an angry LBS is still allowing the crisis to affect them because I am not angry and trust me I know this is not my crisis but I do take it very personally and it affects me on many levels.  I think bottom line is - it just depends on who you are and how life effects you- angry or not.  Some of us have better tools to deflect and stand tall.  Others are more absorbing of other's emotions and feel it rather acutely and others just fall somewhere in the middle of the spectrum. 

 

[Kenai]

I think this is a hugely significant writing that J. made and I certainly want to thank him and Moment for sharing these insights. I see a sad but incredibly self-reflecting life-story there. And I really liked his expression "taking ownerhsip" for what you have done - I think it is one of the most difficult parts of any recovery or crisis or life-changing experience. 

For me, also the word "forgiving" rings bells. And I think it is an essential part of recovery and life-journey of human beings, and has to do with acknowledging our shadows, the taking of ownership and letting go/forgiving ourselves. I think it is an old wisdom that says that forgiving starts with oneself - who cannot forgive themselves, cannot forgive others. I have been thinking of this a lot now at the midst of my H crisis, because for me, his screaming accusations and blame towards me sound like he is not really forgiving himself, thus not forgiving me either. In other words, his behaviour shouts not accepting me, not accepting himself,  fear and resentment towards me, but most importantly, towards himself. And the escape of those feelings. He is the upstanding guy escaping his feelings of failure, causing depression.

These texts have provoked yet another thought as well:

It seems to me that at the moment of writing these texts, it is when he has actually started to deal with the end of his marriage, emotionally. My point here is that it seems that during the six years of replay, even when he divorced etc, he was not really dealt with these actions, they were just put aside (just as he said).
Instead, his wife had to deal with it, went through the pain, recovered and healed, and found a new love. What it tells me is that in such a crisis, even when the MLCer takes divorce, marries someone else... If he/she is still in deep crisis, this person is not really dealing with these actions emotionally: they are put aside, as J. says. It seems that not until the crisis is over, does this person actually emotionally deal with the divorce etc, which might have concretely taken place years before. So it sound to me that J. is in this process while writing these texts: still talking about "his wife" (suddenly changing to ex-wife), wondering about the decisions of not to reconcile etc.

I found these texts very wise - coming for somebody who has really LIVED through a major life-crisis and has had the guts to come to terms with what happened. Unfortunately I think most people, even when recovering, do not want to take a close look at the damage they caused, but just to move on and make excuses (or take really years/decades to arrive at the acknowledgement - perhaps not until they see the same happening to their children or grand-children!). But I think there is very little the LBS or others can do about it. I though J's wife was very intelligent in stating that she would be there when needed (even if it was just as a friend), but meanwhile, when J was behaving in such a self-destructive manner and with lack of respect towards her and the kids, "she would maintain her distance". That is setting loving boundaries!

And yes, I think these kinds of life-crisis do cause, oblige, enable... Us to initiate also our "journey of self-discovery", the happiness from within. I think we all tend to forget about it, especially with kids and long marriages, and particularly in the midst of MLC, but it is important, because we cannot know where the crisis takes these people and in the meanwhile, we also have to live and be happy. Otherwise we just sacrifice our lives for their needs, which augments our resentments, not the forgiveness, so I figure we have to start from ourselves for not being able to resolve other people's crisis...

Kenai.

[nah]

attaching

[summer90]

I went over what moment discussed with J about the crisis and found the conversation very interesting. 

I certainly understand that the MLCer must be getting some highs from their behaviours, after all, that's what it's all about - having fun.

J had said that he had years filled with guilt, remorse, confusion, sadness and paranoia and that there were times filled with "great pleasure"  I take from this that if much of the time spent in the aforementioned states of guilt etc., that when things were good, the pleasurable times were pleasurable when compared to the alternative.  I would think that any LBS gains more from pleasurable times than prior to their partners MLC because when compared to what they are going through, the good times are amplified because of the constant stress we live under.

The same may be said for the MLCer, that when they have good times, these are amplified in comparison to the depression they feel.  They are also constantly searching for happiness rather than being content with what they have.  Each pleasure becomes old and fills a void for a short period before the search must continue.  It must be exhausting.

I note J used the word pleasure and not happiness.  I would imagine he was trying to find happiness outside of himself and never attained this, as happiness is within us, not exterior.  Pleasure is exterior.  The pleasurable moments were possibly short lived and fleeting,  the happiness he had in his marriage prior to MLC would have been a constant and given him a much more fulfilling life.  He chose pleasure over happiness for at least six years.

The most telling statement for me, was that he crashed because his pleasurable behaviours were contrary to who he thought he was  He thought he was an "ethical, upstanding man and his conscience could no longer cope with his actions".  BINGO.  He went back to or at least found his "core person" again.  He had to do this, it IS who he is at his core and this cannot be denied forever.

[Anjae]

Whether I stand or not, what does an MLCer have to do to show true remorse?

For me, actions. Corrective actions. Offert to mend all that can be mended.

And ultimately does it matter if I forgive them?

Forgiveness is for us. For us not to live with anger, ressetment, sorrow. No idea if it matter or does not matter to them. But I have forgave mine. Forgave and take the MLCer back are two different things for me.

A lack of an ability to forgive themselves for whatever transgressions they have done or that have been done to them.

How easy would it be to forgive yourself if you had done all our MLCer did? Not very easy? The thing is they can't forgive themselves for what they have done, early on an affair (that could be stop and things would not go further), but they keep uping the madness and doing more and more stuff they cannot forgive themselves for.

He said that if he was not getting pleasure from his behaviors in those years he certainly would not have continued down that road for as long as he did. 

Obviously. Just like and addict also has pleasure from their behaviours. I don't think MLCer are nothing but pain. In fact I think some of them, at least at times, really have fun and enjoy themselves. And that leads to the question, if they are enjoying themselves, why do they come out of crisis? Why do they regret their actions?

And to the other question, they know what they are doing, don't they? At least some of them know or at times they know. And if so, well, there is little space to sympathize with them.

He acknowledges that the LBS emotional pain is probably a lot more severe because we are not using pleasurable behaviors that can offer some relief.

Not necessarally. Some LBS use pleasurable behaviours. I did it early on. It was a lot of fun.

It was his conscience that finally could not cope with his actions.  He said its like any addiction it brings pleasure but it is always at the expense of your well being and finding true joy. 

Meaning those moments of fun really are not enough. And they drain the MLCer.

We may very well be projecting our pain onto our MLCers.

We may. But all those who had a MLCer returning had heard the MLCer talk about their pain. And those who still had not have a MLCer returned have heard the MLCer talk about their dark days, their demons, their anger. To me that equal pain. And there is also the physical toll MLC takes on the MLCer. At a point they no longer have a genuine smile, their eyes are dead. Happiness and joy have left.

Living With Hope, Mr J is my husband. Can we just call J, J? Thank you.

[osb]

This is such a thought-provoking thread. I keep feeling I'm almost grasping something important but it slips away like an eel and I have to re-read and re-think.

It's all about the balance between guilt and forgiveness, isn't it?

A lack of an ability to forgive themselves for whatever transgressions they have done or that have been done to them.

How easy would it be to forgive yourself if you had done all our MLCer did? Not very easy?

Some of it's the torture of self-forgiveness, I'm sure. Sackcloth and ashes. But also there's a thick veneer of resentment from the partially cooked MLCer - after all, if we LBS had managed to find our own pleasure somehow, mask our own pain somehow, then the MLCer wouldn't feel so much burden of guilt. So why won't we take the primrose path and find our own pleasure, instead of the thorny LBS road? Some MLCers encourage the LBS to find a new partner and move on, simply to release them from guilt. If an MLCer thinks from this perspective, even in retrospect our pain may become minimized and our personal growth maximized in their eyes. See, in the end we've all grown, so no harm no foul! Certainly I'm not saying all MLCers view it this way, but I did hear my H articulate thoughts like this as he worked his way through.

[Anjae]

...after all, if we LBS had managed to find our own pleasure somehow, mask our own pain somehow, then the MLCer wouldn't feel so much burden of guilt.

But when we have again found joy and our own pleasure, instead of it making the MLCer go less nuts, it seems in many cases it drives them more nuts and to do more, and more cruel, replay behaviour.

It remains the damanned if you do, damned if you don't. For a MLCer deep in crisis, no matter what the LBS does it will always bring anger, guilt, ressentment.

Even if the LNS remarries that will not bring the MLCer out of crisis not erase their guilt.

Not so certain we have all grown in the end. The LBS that has made the work on themselves, yes, the MLCer? Not so certain. Some will have grown, others will have not.

[hopeandfaith]

Sorry to dumb this down but I am sitting here thinking about Chocolate.  I love eating Chocolate but it comes at a price.  I know it's bad for me.  Too much makes me sick and fat.  I do so enjoy eating it but there is guilt after it immediately, despite the fact that while I am eating it, I feel happy and entitled to it.  It is pleasure from an external source, like Summer said, and not something that comes from within.

I think we are all trying to get our heads around their concept of pleasure.  It hurts to read that.  It worked better for me to believe that every time H was with OW, they were arguing.  It's confronting to consider something else although we all know that it must be true because even they are not dumb enough to keep doing something that is ALWAYS bad. 

That brings me to another realisation about BD.  We are often told that they never should have married us because it was all bad.  We know it wasn't and we know they experienced pleasure/happiness with us just days before they BD'd.  Some of them waffled quite a bit and in hindsight, I could see the war raging inside my H's head before he adopted the "we've always had trouble" stance. 

Much like they realise the 'cost' of addictions, they must have felt like staying with us was 'costing' them their identity.  It's all so confusing and I agree with what osb just wrote about almost grasping something and then it slipping away.

[osb]

Anjae, didn't mean to sound like I endorse the viewpoint - these are crazy sentences I've heard from my H. H spent a lot of time temporizing, hoping I'd happily move on and thus take the unbearable pressure of guilt off him; and the 'no harm no foul' was his phrase. I ground my teeth, of course. I could've found easier ways to grow...

....gonna go get me some chocolate now  ....