[a]

Previous thread--

http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=5388.0;all

RCR Note: this topic is a continuation of a discussion based on emails sent to Moment a few years ago. The story is in two parts and to catch up, you may want to at least read the email. I have linked each of the posts where she copied the emails below.

Part 1: http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=5388.msg345201#msg345201
Part 2: http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=5388.msg345718#msg345718

[LaughLoveLive]

Wow that has to be the quickest anyone has ever got through a thread! We are all very intrigued by this one.

[The lighthouse]

Attaching.   

[Zendog]

signing on to follow this discussion. I've had a couple thoughts on this, but one that's been nagging at me was the one where people have been talking about whether what they do influences their MLCer's path. I used to think I would have an influence on them, but the simple fact is I don't. It's their path. They're going to follow it no matter what I do. The key for me is to follow my path no matter what they do. As easy as it can be to get wrapped up in what they do, why they do and the rational or lack thereof, at some point it all becomes a massive time suck interfering with where I need and want to go. At some point, for the LBS, it needs to not be about them. It's about why I do the things I do. How can I do what I need, yet do so in a non-harmful way to myself and others.

I see where people thought the letter writer was yet to show remorse, but I started thinking about what remorse would or should look like to an LBS. Whether I stand or not, what does an MLCer have to do to show true remorse? I don't know. And ultimately does it matter if I forgive them? They are damaged and broken. They may provide their apology, but at some point they have to learn to forgive themselves. That's something I can't do, and something I think is at the root of all their problems. A lack of an ability to forgive themselves for whatever transgressions they have done or that have been done to them.

The challenge is there are no simple answers. It's complex enough to figure out why I do the things I do. Sometimes it's just to challenging to delve into the mind of another. But then I may change my mind tomorrow.

[kikki]

something I think is at the root of all their problems. A lack of an ability to forgive themselves for whatever transgressions they have done or that have been done to them.

Now that's an interesting thought zendog.  Hadn't looked at it like that before, but is that the root of their issue? 
Is it forgiveness that they can't give their foo, or others that did them wrong?
I always thought they needed to understand first why the things that happened to them occurred before they could forgive, but maybe I'm wrong.

[Yoyolove]

Attaching

[Dagolark]

Attaching

[a]

Hi All

Saw J this morning at a group meditation.  I told him about the responses from his emails and that there were so many perceptions about them.  He just smiled and said he expected nothing less - "That's the thing about human beings we all come with the filter of our perceptions".

I asked him about the years of replay (i did not use this term with him), he said that yes while these years were filled with guilt and remorse, confusion, sadness and at times paranoia - he said that it was also a time in his life of great pleasure - that yes while he struggled with or rather tried not to struggle with his painful emotions - there were good times scattered amongst the turmoil - we as LBS's must try not project our emotional pain onto the MLCer and assume that they are experiencing the pain as we experience it or feel it.  He said that weeks would go by without him feeling too bad about things - we should not buy into the premise that the MLCer is in constant emotional turmoil.  He said that if he was not getting pleasure from his behaviors in those years he certainly would not have continued down that road for as long as he did. 

He acknowledges that the LBS emotional pain is probably a lot more severe because we are not using pleasurable behaviors that can offer some relief.  He said that his crash was because those pleasurable behaviors were contrary to who he thought he was - an ethical upstanding man.  It was his conscience that finally could not cope with his actions.  He said its like any addiction it brings pleasure but it is always at the expense of your well being and finding true joy.  And in the end the pleasure for some, not all, is no longer able to sustain the illusion of happiness.  For those in a more unconscious state define this pleasure as happiness and more often than not  have successfully justified their creul and hurtful behaviour and moved on to  live there lives - i think this is what has happened to XH.

Anyway i guess he was trying to say that we need to focus on our pain and find a way through and to not concern ourselves with MLCer because that impedes our healing.  We need to find compassion for ourselves first and foremost.  As the MLCer who is self-medicating with OW, booze and the like are actually experiencing real moments of pleasure.  We may very well be projecting our pain onto our MLCers.

just a thought

take care
moment

[OldPilot]

Moment

That is the definition of MASKED DEPRESSION.

I agree with what he said.

They are running away from PAIN and we are trying to face it and work our way through it.

[ruggedendurance]

I read the post on an inability to forgive themselves and it struck a nerve with me.
  My exW was molested as a child.    She told me about it when we first met over 30yrs ago.  She almost immediately denied it.    She has never mentioned it since.

  Her parents had made a photo album of her as she was growing up.    Once in a while during the marriage we would look through all of the photos we had gathered and reminisce.
  When we would look through the album of her childhood pictures?     Without fail.   She would see herself as a 9 or 10 year old girl and say "hideous" "ugly" and turn those pages in disgust.

   I thought it was odd but it really didn't hit home with me until she had vanished from my life.

   I realized that she never blamed the person that molested her.    She despised the little girl that she was.   I also realized that she locked that little girl away inside of herself and would never give her the love and forgiveness that little girl needed.

   I am certain this crisis was brought on by her own "self-neglect" and for the venom she held for herself.

   When she told me she "was never happy?"     I do believe her now.  I don't think she has ever been truly happy.  I am sure it was impossible for her.

   It occurred to me.    If she hates the little girl inside?     She has always hated herself.