[OldPilot]

As the depression and denial start to lift, which as Conway describes is a gradual process, the memories that were so clouded in negativity begin to become positive again.

That is really interesting DGU, do you know if MLCers every have "clearings in the fog" moments of clarity, when in the thick of the worst of the crisis, or is it at that point that confusion gives way to "certainty" that the marriage is over, that life HAS to change to make them feel better about themselves? I know there is confusion, but does that mean that there are times where they question their own revision even during crisis?

Clearings in the middle of the tunnel are touch and goes.
They happen all the time.

[eternity]

Hi,
My H knows that what he is doing will come down on him very hard one day. H said this the first time last week and again today. He knows and is willing to take risk that if he comes out of this that I will be gone.
It is very strange that if you know that a situation will go bad for you that you still want to go on with it. I can not get my head around this.
He also confirmed that the reason why he run away has nothing to do with me, it has to do with him, but he doesn't know what is going on with him. He can not give me 1 reason. We talked about several things that weighted on our marriage but those are practical things that  can be solved easily and are not the real reasons for him walking out.
I suppose that he is close to the end of replay (H is still living with OW, he is  still in  replay than) but these oehoe-things seem to be gone and he is more depressed now. But he did not look at himself yet. Rather than looking at himself he is stuck somewhere and went that far today to confirm that he will never return also if he left OW; half an hour later H suggested that we could talk again on Tuesday. Strange thing to do for someone who says he is finished.

His rewriting of history goes only that far that he in his mind thinks that I did not appreciate all the hard work he has done.

[LettingGo]

Ummmm, my husband has had a lot of touch n goes.... with several moments of clarity. He doesn't see me as the enemy any more, and is now rewriting history to make it BETTER than it was.... not in the sense that we didn't have issues, but in the sense that it was a CAKEWALK compared to what's coming down the pike with consequences and the complication of OW, which he dragged into our lives....

He KNOWS we had a good thing, but is now scared we can't be good again, due to his destructive actions.... They do look for some changes though, so if you haven't moved one iota, you're not going to look so good to them...

Mine has started recognizing the really good things.... "the little things" according to him, and that negates a lot of the stuff they thought they couldn't live with. He is looking for comfort... the same comfort he was attracted to in OW.... a very long time ago in my life, a wise man once made the comment.... "You know, sometimes you just want a Barcalounger!" meaning, your comfy chair that you can count on to be there. OW is too volatile, doesn't smell right, doesn't cook right, doesn't decorate her house right, doesn't parent right.... and he hates her family. The fun of being her "savior" turns into a big drag... trust me.

This clarity overlaps replay... they ease up on the rewriting of history the more you stand your ground and tell the truth... eventually, they remember it just the way you did.... flaws and all.

[LKK]

] 

Hi,
My H knows that what he is doing will come down on him very hard one day. H said this the first time last week and again today. He knows and is willing to take risk that if he comes out of this that I will be gone.
It is very strange that if you know that a situation will go bad for you that you still want to go on with it. I can not get my head around this.

I'm new to this board, and the BD even though I see it was going on for awhile,  but when you say this, the first thing I thought of was almost childlike, they know if they smoke, drink, play on the computer instead of doing homework, lie, cheat or steal there will be real consequences but the impulse control just isn't there.

I guess it could be equated to an alcoholic or addict as well, they know they may lose the  job if caught, or may lose their license, or even custody of kids they love,  but it's something that can't be controlled, for now, anyway.  Is it the same process?  Recognition they are self-destructing and learning to handle it as a drug addict bottoms out, finds themselves in sobriety and recreates the life they were trying to escape from because it wasn't that bad?  I'm specifically thinking of all of those suburban moms you hear about who have a nice life and chose to become addicted to deal with stress instead of working on it from the inside out, i.e. it's someone else's fault they are unhappy.

Sometimes the stress for any addict is real, sometimes it's perceived, but the escape and it's ramifications are very real, aren't they?  Just food for thought, not an expert by any means except my mother had an alcohol problem and I've been in therapy to learn how to focus on changing myself.

[LettingGo]

IKK, my husband is an alcoholic.... after several tries over many years, I found myself in Al Anon and finally understanding the purspose, because of my husband's MLC. I was at rock bottom, and I knew they had a program that could help me put the focus on me.

The twelve steps are very basic, simple and POWERFUL. Anything else is overthinking, in my opinion, and I do not yet have a STRONG PROGRAM...

The only difference in what we teach for living with a spouse in MLC (not necessarily living together...) and what Al Anon teaches is that we indulge in venting about our spouses here... obsessing about them some... as part of our natural process. I believe it is helpful to a degree to just make you aware that you aren't alone... but the real work and movement is found in ourselves.

Addiction is all about avoiding addressing the pain of childhood trauma... MLC is the same thing. My husband would NEVER approach a crisis like I would.... reading, seeking counseling, etc. he just wouldn't... knowing this allows me to have empathy and understanding for him even though he is destructive and hurtful, the same way an addict is... they know it sometimes, but the addiction is in charge.

Believe it or not, I liken MLC as a form of posession.... our spouses are NOT themselves.... unable to control their impulses, even when they WANT TO DESPERATELY! My husband has actually used the word "Posessed" to describe how he has felt in this... "addicted" is another word he uses...

yes, they are adults with choices, but none of them would choose to CONTINUE their behaviors..... they took that first "hit" of "freedom" and they were hooked into a world of sickness and volatility that they can't control... they were blindsided.

[LKK]

Letting Go - I totally agree with everything you are saying.  I just found it really interesting.  Our wheels are turning, and turning, but that's how solutions are found. Heck, look at what  a mess I am even with counseling, this forum, supportive friends I've told (kept that small though) and I know darn well I'll be overthinking for a while since this is still so new it stings.

 That was my first impression of what was said about the quote, like you said, the first "hit"... my H is a withdrawn personality and it went deeper and deeper because that was/is his coping mechanism.  I used to think it was selfish and poor body language, boy, I've changed my lane on that one!   I know what you mean as my H is not a person who will search out materials and answers, on a personal level that is. 

I agree with you, as well, our spouses are not themselves.  When I see my H's eyes in the middle of what I call an "episode" or the forum refers to as monster spewing, it's not him.  His eyes are cold and hard, not the man I know. It's frightening.  And yes, agreement again, he did have childhood trauma, abusive father, and withdrawing and zoning out were his ways to cope.  Now it has gone to the extreme, out of his control, and taken control of him, much like I equate the way an addiction takes control of the person.  They don't realize how bad it was until they come through the other end. 


So many correlations, so many situations and problems and emotional turmoil for so many of us.  I think of families living in small towns, I grew up in one, where people didn't go to Al-anon, or AA or anything similar because of the stigma, or lack of availability, and today,  we have access to forums like this from all over the place to vent, get support, share, and for the spouse who wants to research and work through, with or without therapy, it's a blessing. 

[StandandDeliver]

Ikk and LG - really interesting, the correlation to an addict. LG I am so far behind you in this process and H and I have very little contact other than about the children, he has no way of seeing any changes and progress in me. I am slowly changing anyway, because I don't want to exactly as I was, with or without H, again.

Not that I was a bad person (of course, I had flaws) but I was not the person I wanted to be, I compromised alot of myself in my R. That, combined with my all time low self-esteem that I was suffering for the year prior to BD (bear in mind that I had just had a baby, I felt tired, stressed, fat, unattractive, overburdened, undervalued and received no help, encouragement, kindness from my MLCer - I didn't know he was in MLC, in fact did not realise it was a real condition - he was previously such a considerate, kind and thoughtful person and the changes crept up slowly as they do, I think I internalised it all and felt that there was just something wrong with me). In fact, H accused me of having PND and I spent ages reflecting and wondering if I did. I even told him I thought I might have. The truth was I did not. I was ecstatic about my baby, in love with my family, excited about life but living with him literally drained all of that out of me. It had NOTHING to do with the baby or my hormones. I have given this a lot of thought since he left, and I can see that it was all part of his MLC - he made everything my fault (and, in any case, if I did have PND and he thought it was serious, as a concerned partner and parent of my children should he not have sought help for me or helped ease the burdens that I had? If not for me, then for the kids?)No, he invented reasons that I was hard to live with, because he did not wish to look for the truth of why he was feeling so low when, for all intents and purposes, he had everything he had ever wanted.

So, I am changing things that relate to why I was so ready to believe I was the problem, without ever considering it was him.  Why, even though it did not make me happy, I was willing to put everyone in my life ahead of myself. Why I abandoned my dreams and stopped talking about them. Why, when I had always been a spirited person, I let it get to a point where my spirit was sucked out of me. So - abandonment issues, etc. 

Anyway, my point is that I am changing for me, because I never want to feel that weak and powerless in my own life again. And strangely, although H has left, is living with OW and shows no sign of  regret towards me (but then I never see him), I feel like I have power over my life (not control, but power) I understand that I cannot contril life, but I do have the power to affect it. And, while I am still sad and by no means "over" what happened, I do feel optimistic and energised in many ways. 

[Glimmer]

My H is nowhere near the end of MLC. He is still deep in replay and the OW very much in the picture. He re-wrote all our history of 19years by saying we never had anything in common and had drifted apart. He couldn't remember anything good about our marriage. He told me that before he left he used to dread coming home from work. He said he would get a sinking feeling in his stomach as he opened the door.  Yet now he loves to visit every day and hates when he can't make it.

I don't know if there is any significance in this, but over the last few weeks or so, he has texted me over little things that he has 'remembered'.  Listening to a Chris Rea song, and it reminded him of sitting on the porch at my parents when we first met. An interview on the radio with Martin Sheen, reminding him of when we loved to watch the West Wing on TV, and how he says he can't watch that programme with anyone else. I know they are only little things, but nevertheless I am sure a few months back he would never have made the connection.  I do still feel that he will always be stuck in the tunnel in limbo though.   

[StandandDeliver]

Glimmer,

I think you are about a year ahead of me in all of this (well at least in terms of BD - who knows how long they were like this before then).

I think that what your H's actions show is that no matter what they are doing during MLC, even in replay, they just can not "forget" the past and with time, they have to start acknowledging some truth in the idea that there were good times! After all, what sort of idiot would stay in a relationship for 19 years that they hated. The feeling trapped thing is ALL internal. They are trapped in themselves, not with you! And that doesn't go away when they leave. They feel initial relief because they THINK they have solved the problem, and of course the validation and idolisation of the OP helps them feel that they were right. But with time the relief fades, OP becomes real rather than a fantasy and they eventually have to acknowledge on some level that we were not the (whole) problem. Whether that eventually becomes acknowledgement that they themselves were the problem is the part that I have a hard time seeing my H doing. He has never been one to admit when he is wrong, it has always been about others being wrong about him, or stupid, or unfair. So, like you, while I believe he may one day see things differently than he does now, whether he admits it to anyone is a whole other story.

[Shantilly Lace]

I think that what your H's actions show is that no matter what they are doing during MLC, even in replay, they just can not "forget" the past and with time, they have to start acknowledging some truth in the idea that there were good times!

I disagree, when I left Dearheart I couldn't remember any good things part of me knew thay had to be there but I oculdn't remember.  Once my depression started lifting I remembered more and more. Until I was able to remember the good outweighed the bad.

Dearheart sometimes achnowledges now it wasn't all bad but the bad still outweighs the good.  But they seem fleeting at present but really if it were all as bad ashe said he wouldn't be trying to spend so much time here.  He knows somewhere inside it wasn't as bad but his emotions are all over the place and he can't see it, he just associates me with the bad unfortunately.  THat's what makes coming back so hard.

It isn't the desire, we see it all the time it's the fear and although it makes NO SENSE it is a real fear. I had meds and counselling and still it took me months to be able to come home.  On top of that I demanded he move, I was lucky and he loved me enough to do so.  So he's hesitations and fears are real and they are beyond scary.  I mean think about it, how hard do we work to avoid what we fear?  It is unfair but the family is part ofwhat they fear.

I had a friend terrified of Butterflies.  I mean it even pictures of butterflies had her sweating and vomitting.  Spiders I get, venomous creepy they didn't bother her, but butterflies who can't urt anyone had her a mess.  She KNEW they couldn't hurt her.  KNEW there was nothing they could do to her but did it stop her fear? NO.

So the family hasn't done anything but they still give the MLCer an irratonal fear, that in most cases will be overcome.