[toomanytearss]

LisaLives - your post spoke to me.  This has been something I have been struggling with since the beginning. 

I know that none of us truly knows how we will react to any situation until we are in it, but what do you believe you would have done if you had found this site before following through with the divorce?  Do you think your path would have been the same or different? 

[Songanddance]

I think standers tend to get stuck in victim a LOT longer--victims of MLC, not of their spouse, so it's a nameless, faceless perpetrator, and all the while, the former loving spouse, in many ways gets a free pass to continue doing damage, thus delaying the healing process even longer. 

I disagree slightly here.  MLC is not a nameless, faceless perpetrator - it is personified in our spouses.  There are choices after BD - fight or flight. The third choice is to do nothing and this is usually the safest. 
I think society aka well meaning friends and relatives perpetuates the victim mode by using phrases like  " you don't deserve this,you deserve better/ Dump him / rise above this/kick him to the curb/pack his bags/ give him an ultimatum.  They may think they are encouraging the survivor mode but I suggest they are unwittingly manipulating the LBS into victim mode.  The poor pity me syndrome.
Even boasting about how you have given H what for etc.. is perpetuating the idea of being a victim fighting back.

Yes in standing the MLCer gets a free pass - but that is still the LBSer's choice. At first it is usually a knee jerk reaction that the marriage can be solved quickly. Then, as information gets through, assimilated, absorbed and accepted, standing becomes a choice. However this site and this thread is more about standing for your own healing.  The LBser does not have to give the MLCer  a free pass.
IMHO it is the LBsers of vanishers who end up giving the MLCer a free pass because the MLC has disappeared and not even D is an option.

When we choose to stand, we HAVE to look past the bad stuff, just like a battered wife.  We hold on, in love, in fear, or habit, knowing that we are being abused, in many respects.  And even if this is a conscious choice, there is still a LOT of cognitive dissonance you have to reconcile to make sense of it.  And that prevents true healing--because you are still not healing just yourself, but trying to keep dragging along a broken R that you can't fix without help. 

Those of us who have clingers can become and remain victims if we fall for the MLCer's patter and behaviour.   H is the one with the issues and H will not get a free ride if he returns.
However there are a few of us that are healing, even with clingers. God knows how - suspect it's the familiarity breeds contempt syndrome.
Yet again though I was lucky to find a T that diagnosed me with PTSD and I chose to be totally honest about everything and learn how to help heal myself. At first it was in the vague hope that H would be a quick return. Then it became necessary for my survival to use her tactics just for me.

If H chooses to return - I have to a) want him to return and B) be ready for him to return. In the meantime I know that our R is completely broken and until we are both prepared to work together on it - I decided that there was no R to drag along. I am ok and beginning to thrive. Even with a CB/stay at home MLCer, I live my own life and bounce back from the down moments that my thoughts create no H's behaviour.
 

[stayed]

I had to heal from this ordeal before I would have been able to pursue a new Relationship.  It had nothing to do with anybody getting a free pass or a get out of jail card.  I just knew that unless I understood what happened and came to terms with it, I doubt I would ever have had a DECENT relationship with anybody.  Least of all my MLCer.

I think no matter what we do, whether we divorce, remarry, remain married but separated, or reconcile... it just doesn't matter.  Unless we process all the stages, finally finding acceptance as much as possible, I knew I was incapable of having any sort of contentment with myself, or with anybody.

Hugs Stayed

[Anjae]

IMHO it is the LBsers of vanishers who end up giving the MLCer a free pass because the MLC has disappeared and not even D is an option.

Some vanishers divorce. Others don’t. And, no, the LBS does not give the vanisher MLCer a free pass. There is simply not much that can be done if your spouse vanished. Or, if like mine, does everything under the sun to prevent the divorce from happening but for any other purpose is a vanisher.

But Mr J can prevent all he wants, he cannot prevent me from deciding it is over nor to choose someone else.  Nor can any MLCer prevent anything that is personl and intimate of the LBS.

There is no free pass to a vanisher, a vanisher vanishes, that is all.

[LisaLives]

I had to heal from this ordeal before I would have been able to pursue a new Relationship...  I just knew that unless I understood what happened and came to terms with it, I doubt I would ever have had a DECENT relationship with anybody. 
Hugs Stayed

But stayed, you gathered yourself together, and really were given the gift of distance, and "stuff" to deal with that took your mind off of some things, for a bit.  I will probably NEVER understand what happened, even your H is still foggy about his fog, and he works at it.  I will probably never have the opportunity to understand.  I can come terms with it, and heal, but that path is definitely different than the one I would have taken if I let it, in any way be hindered by trying to understand him and his process... 

[Medusa]

Do  any of them really get a free pass? Not trying to shift the focus back onto them, but we know they suffer guilt, and w are often hardest on ourselves. They know what they're doing and they have to live with themselves.

None of us gets a free pass. We do mirror work for ourselves and even though we know we aren't at fault for their crisis, we also, hopefully, know that some of the rotten stuff they said to us has a grain of truth.

I agree with Anjae: they cannot prevent us from living our lives the way we choose any more than we can prevent them from living their lives as they choose.

[LisaLives]

I think standers tend to get stuck in victim a LOT longer--victims of MLC, not of their spouse, so it's a nameless, faceless perpetrator, and all the while, the former loving spouse, in many ways gets a free pass to continue doing damage, thus delaying the healing process even longer. 
       

Before you go on discussing my "free pass" comment, let me clarify.  What I said was that, in standing, and giving that agape love, being the lighthouse, and TRYING to understand and forgive MLC, in most cases, that MLCer is going to continue heaping on the damage.  If you continue to see and hear the of the mess they make, if the D gets ugly and OW gets vile, you continue to face the schrapnel, all while TRYING to heal yourself.  That is MUCH harder than walking away and ignoring it ALL. 

Everyone still has to heal, but my original point was that if you know you are walking away, that process is much different than if you stand.  Think about it like an athlete.  When an NFL receiver tears an ACL and is determined to play again, that healing is MUCH different than for one who tears an ACL and decides to give up the sport.  It is not just the physical work of surgery and rehab, but the psychology of going out there and facing the fear.  Of course the one who gives up the game will still rehab to live and work and coach their kids, but knowing they will never again be forced to take a three foot jump with two huge men bearing down on them--is just different, and I would argue, a LOT easier. 

So, I said a free pass to continue doing damage.  And I could be wrong, but when my ex left, I took that as a declaration of war.  When he became my enemy, nothing more he did could hurt me, not emotionally.  When I let my guard down and saw him as the man I loved, the father of my kids, you bet he could hurt me, that was his ticket in, and he knew it.  If he could make me vulnerable, he could try to negotiate a better settlement, or better custody terms, but I had an attorney who would not let me back down.  That's what I meant, it takes a LOT more strength to continue loving something that continually hurts you than it does to walk away--that healing path is far easier. 

[Anjae]

I walked away, literally, I moved back over, more than 300km from Mr J. And turned by back on it all. But, since Mr J does not allow for the legalities to move, well, I still have to deal with courts. So, it was easy and it was not easy at all.

Other than that he is away, we have not seen each other, but for last month's court session and this week one, in more than 6 years.

OW2 is probably over the top vile by now, her name turns up in every court and legal document from Mr J of late, but I do not have to see her (and never saw her in person), do not have to deal with her.

I'm home, none of them can do me a thing (other than drag legal issues). They cannot come around here. I've been to the capital since I left and Mr J was not even in my mind.

As for court, there is also no way Mr J can touch me or anything. He can get angry but then he has to deal with the judge. His lawyer can try and be mean with me but my lawyer and the judge are there. So, not much left for him to do.

And, of course, no way on earth he can run my heart or my feelings.

Oh, I forgot, Mr J was being enraged when I moved back. He just shouted and shouted and shouted on our living room and accused me of being involved with this that and those guys up here. Guys I had not seen in years. I ignored him and told him, none of your business, you choose your path, now, please leave.

[patience.of.a.saint]

Take it from someone who has done this both ways, I can say, with certainty, that it was far easier to walk away from my exH and his MLC, than it has been to stand for this one and his MLC. I am not tied to this one by marriage so I could walk away without the D issues, except that he is a clinger and spent the first 8 months after BD staying here every other weekend. He still stays occasionally, which I will admit is wonderful as it happens, and is very hard when it's over. Currently, it is the choice I choose to make. On the other hand, my exH left for two weeks, came back for one night, and told me he couldn't do it...never stayed here again. It was an easy decision to let exH walk away...this one, not so much. I guess knowing that I could let exH go so easily, makes me believe I love this one with a different kind of love that makes me want to stand, regardless of what gets thrown at me while I'm standing.

[stayed]

I actually agree with you about using the term MLC in a sense gives our spouse a "pass", an excuse.  It definitely makes it easier to "forgive" them, if you latch onto the belief, that they "cannot help themselves, they have a dis-ease" which is making them behave this way.  It is easy though, to accept such a "diagnosis/excuse/ailment" because in most cases the transformation from mild manner reporter to seething, volatile, out of control JOKER, is so immense! 

Admittedly, the change didn't happen overnight, although the changes were severe enough that within a few months, you find yourself "walking on eggshells, sneaking peeks at them, when you think they aren't looking"!  It's subtle changes, with episodes of disturbing, baffling changes, which become more and more severe the longer the CRISIS goes on.

At least, that's the way my spouses crisis came about.  It sort of crept up on us.  Although, definitely aware something was happening, unable to put your finger on what it is.  Looking back, it becomes excruciatingly clear, typical 20/20 hindsight. 

But stayed, you gathered yourself together, and really were given the gift of distance, and "stuff" to deal with that took your mind off of some things, for a bit.  I will probably NEVER understand what happened, even your H is still foggy about his fog, and he works at it.  I will probably never have the opportunity to understand.  I can come terms with it, and heal, but that path is definitely different than the one I would have taken if I let it, in any way be hindered by trying to understand him and his process... 

I get your point LisaLives, I was granted and took advantage of the gift of distance and "stuff".  Although, just like you, I really do not understand what happened, nor does he.  We all have to COME TO TERMS with this thing, whether we remain with them, separate and remain alone, or find a new love.  If we want to live whole, happy lives that is.

I do agree with you though, standing does seem to keep us STUCK in Victim mode longer then those that move on.  Just plain stuck quite honestly, be it in Victim mode or not, STANDERS do tend to get "stuck" a bit longer.  I personally like to call it "standing still", hehehe, not stuck.  Letting ourselves adjust, rehabilitate so to speak. 

I don't think any  of us need to apologize or explain what we choose to do with this time.  It is all good in my mind.  I am happy you have found a new love, are making a new life for you.  At the same time, I am happy when I see somebody like Moving Forward and Musica, have and are moving on with their lives, buying new homes, setting up the building blocks for their new future.  I also feel joy when I see reconnection/reconciliation. 

Watching an LBS come out of the depths of shock and horror, beginning to work through their ordeal is also very gratifying, heartening.  The resilience of human nature, never fails to amaze me actually.  I am often surprised that there are as "few" suicides, as there are.  It certainly crossed my mind, which is something I have never in my life considered.  Indication the shock is pretty devastating. 

Good discussion as always.  The whole point of this particular thread is to get the LBS to focus on themselves.  Your insights into this are much welcomed LisaLives.  Thank you.

Hugs Stayed