[LisaLives]

Anj, you clearly belong to the "take a pill and fix it" camp of mental health.  I am NOT.  I strongly believe that most forms of mild mental illness are not that, at all, that they are maladaptations to our bizarre way of life.  I have ADHD, so does my son, my other son is probably AD without the HD.  We were not made to sit at computers and do the work of our society.  Our animal roots would have bred us to hunt and gather and, unfortunately, our evolution has not caught up...  I think most people who are "depressed" are just not adapting well to their place in life.  Anj, that's the problem.  MOST MLCers are still very high functioning in some aspects of their life.  MLC, regardless of what leads them to the dis-ease, is still a series of choices that they make to alleviate some form of internal malaise.  Taking a pill to feel better does not necessarily eliminate the life review that leads to midlife questioning.  WE call is a crisis because our spouses chose to leave us.  I still argue that a pill might have led my exH to do it in a better way, but he still might have done his midlife review and decided that leaving me is his best option.  And a happy pill might make it that much worse for me, at least seeing him be a little miserable makes me THINK he might be having some sort of crisis and not just taking a happy road to a better life... 

And I still say, maybe, at best, 10% of our MLCers would have allowed themselves to admit that they might be "sick" and that was what was leading them to make "bad" choices.  If they won't even go to therapy, who was going to convince them?   

[kikki]

Anj, you clearly belong to the "take a pill and fix it" camp of mental health.  I am NOT.  I strongly believe that most forms of mild mental illness are not that, at all, that they are maladaptations to our bizarre way of life.

LL  A + B does not equal Z. I don't understand how you came to the above conclusion.
On the contrary, because today's crazy environment/lifestyle leads to extreme stress (of which I agree we are not able to handle from an evolutionary perspective), it leads to biochemical changes, as well as poor coping skills and strange thinking patterns and all of the rest of it.

Hence the 'mitigation' is not about taking a pill to fix it. Diet/lifestyle/exercise/supplements/medication/therapy etc may all be a part of the approach.

It's about looking at the big picture and looking at it from a holistic angle.

I personally think that if it was publicly recognised as a disorder, rather than being brushed under the carpet because it generates more income for lawyers etc that way, then LBS would not have the added insult of just being treated as the woman/man scorned, as more often than not, does occur.

[LisaLives]

kikki, when you read stuff like this, something that could have been written by any of our spouses, how would you get ANY of them to admit they are wrong? 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/divorced-moms/how-my-emotional-affair-b_b_6271236.html?utm_hp_ref=divorce&ir=Divorce

There are lots of people that are depressed and don't have MLCs.  There are lots of people that get D'ed because their spouses have untreated depression and they can't live with it anymore, some of them are also having MLCs, because of it.  I know a man who admits to leaving his wife in the heat of an early MLC, but knows it was for the best and though she has stood for over 20 years, through his M and D to the crazy OW, he would never go back to her.  He said he knows he handled it wrong, that he had "stuff" to deal with, but he does not regret it.  I also know a crazy man who has lived in MLC for years, and knows it, but says he likes it.  He is wealthy, parties all the time and is on wife number 4, who is young and VERY hot... 

How would you define an MLC?  Do you REALLY believe there could one day be a test, and what would it show?  and what would the outcome be, what would you wish?  Do you think people will all go to the doctor at midlife, and get a test that would show a likelihood, and then what, would they wear a scarlet letter M that tells people all their decisions are suspect?  What about that battered or otherwise abused woman who finally grows a backbone at midlife and decides in the heat of an MLC that she doesn't care anymore about what she has to lose, that she's leaving.  Would the "test" somehow make her less able to leave her abusive spouse? 

Diagnosing mental illness is one thing when people want to be acknowledged as somehow disabled and in need of treatment.  But, here we will always come back to, MLCers don't want to be treated, they don't think there is anything wrong with them.  So, by the "take pill and make it better" piece, I meant that you think you can go to the doctor get a diagnosis and a prescription (whether it's for a pill or exercise, doesn't matter) and it's all good.  So, my question stands, what would society look like if more people acknowledged MLC?  What do you think the diagnosis would be, how would it be made, and how would your life, or your case be different?  Just wondering how you take it to its ultimate realization. 

[Mac49]

Great posts LL:

Really got me thinking.

Read that Huff post article this weekend, in my humble opinion not an MLC'r - Why NO BLAME.

What has always characterized my X's behavior is the absolute inability to take responsibility for her actions, everything is the fault of the LBS - Too fat, too controlling, workaholic, moody - nothing to date ever has been her fault. Of course she can't even begin to do the minimum required through our marital settlement agreement and again not her fault.

Questioning your life and the decisions you have made are routine in this day and age, but blaming everything on your spouse because of how you feel is a whole different pathway.

I asked the counselor who was handling some post divorce co-parenting counseling what was meant by "I love you but I'm not in love with you". After fidgeting for several seconds the response was that spouse had "checked out". My comment - Why am I to blame for them checking out, why can't they own that decision." Oh the quiet.

Personal note - I thought for years I was manic depressive however when I realized I was manic for like 9 seconds every three years it provided an avenue for treatment. I don't blame my depression and decisions I've made in life on anyone other than myself.

Peace on your journey's Brothers and Sisters

Mac

[kikki]

kikki, when you read stuff like this, something that could have been written by any of our spouses, how would you get ANY of them to admit they are wrong? 

Agree LL.  Very few MLCers admit that anything at all is wrong.
Mine was one that has on many occasions.  He also was a rare MLCer that agreed to go to therapy because he knew 'something shifted in his head' and it was not right.

Didn't change a thing, because the therapists (yes plural), knew nothing at all of what was occurring for him.  They all validated his need to find 'happiness' any way that he chose. 

So, by the "take pill and make it better" piece, I meant that you think you can go to the doctor get a diagnosis and a prescription (whether it's for a pill or exercise, doesn't matter) and it's all good.

This is where our philosophies differ wildly.  I have little faith that medical doctors will be the ones to lead the way out of this in the future.
Think it's going to take bigger shifts throughout all society than that.

I love this in the front of Jim Conway's 'Men in Mid life crisis'.
'Trapped in silence'
Years ago The New York Times ran an anonymous but pointed letter which read in part, 'I was forty years old and my husband forty-six when the eccentric behaviour began.  An otherwise reasonable and family-loving man suffered, not depression as we understood it, but rage, fatigue, incommunicability, suspicion, hostility. But every incident was my fault supposedly. I was the woman and I was alleged to be in the change of life.  Unfortunately, doctors, psychiatrists, men in general, have kept it all under the rug where they have swept it themselves. They are in terror of the truth of acknowledging a condition which affects their behaviour beyond their control, but which they readily ascribe to women without mercy.

As the book was first published in the late '70's - I can only but imagine that piece was written in the NYTimes many years before then.

What has changed since then?

I think this silence is what needs to change.  It will be interesting to see what changes after that.
Without this silence, when desperate LBS drag their MLCer along to couples counselling, the therapist won't brightly say 'oh I think you're both FABULOUS people, but it's not my job to save your marriage'. 
The therapist will be able to outline exactly what we are both dealing with - and be able to support the LBS with information about how best to navigate it for themselves.  Instead of treating us as though we are completely barmy because we are such poor deluded things.

Dealing with a MLCer is incredibly challenging.  Not all disappear out of our lives.  Some refuse to agree to settlements.  The MLCer, being cray cray - we are not surprised by.
The attitude of many of the 'professionals' that we are forced to engage with to try to protect ourselves (lawyers eg) can be abominable due to their lack of knowledge.
Some understanding of what we are dealing with would go a long way in easing the way through these situations for the LBS and children.

Whether that would lead to any changes in whether MLCers get help or not is not the topic under discussion. 
Although I do suspect that some would choose to take a different pathway if they were able to recognise what was happening to them.  My H knew something was very wrong with his thinking, but if I didn't know about MLC to this extent, then you can bet your cotton socks that he certainly didn't know about it either.
Would it have made a difference if he had known what it was?  I have no idea, but it might have.

That is what the potential for the future is.  The LBS and children having more understanding around them. After that?  Only time will tell.

[Anjae]

Really Lisa? I also do not understand how you arrived at such conclusion.

I do think MLC is a disorder. Mostly induced by stress and other out of control hormones. But MLC has been around for thousands of years, so our current lifestyle is not the only thing causing it. But our way of life does push it to the 10th.

The environment we live in alters our genes, as well as the chemistry of our brain. And there is also the hormones. MLCers have all sorts of hormones running wild. Calm those down and they may start to see things a little differently. Hormones running wild affect brain chemistry, brain chemistry affects the body, etc.

I already told you what would change Lisa, the type of support from health, legal, and other state institutions. How did society change when being an alcoholic or a drug addict was better understood? Several support means for those afflicted by it, and for their relatives, were put in place.

Not so much a test for MLC, but in the future we will know much more about hormones, brain chemistry, brain areas, how they are affected and how, in turn, they affect us. The diagnosis would be that hormones are on the red and several parts of the brain, who are key to wellbeing and sound mind, are being affected.

Of course people could choose to ignore it. Like there are people who ignore their high blood pressure or diabetes.

It will be possible to know (in fact it already is) is someone is over stressed, if their cortisol level is too high, etc.

Mr J knew something was wrong with him. Not only he knew he was depressed but he also told me he was depressed. And he also told the doctor from his company. However traditional approach to depression does not seem to work with MLC, and the doctor did not knew better (nor, at the time, did I).

Not certain if doctors will lead the way, but they will be part of the change/shift. I think it will be a combination of several types of scientists, doctors, laypeople, etc.

If the woman is a battered woman I don’t think there would be a single person here falting her for, finally, had the courage of leaving her abusing spouse. Do drug addicts wear the letters DA and alcoholics the letter A? Do people with schizophrenia wear the letter S and people with bipolar the letter B? I don’t think so. 

And what does society gains with MLC not being better known/not being recognised? Would it be an issue for you if MLC was preventable/mitigatable/treatable, Lisa?

[LisaLives]

I guess I just don't see people in denial, I think the disconnect comes from disagreement over the origins and causes. I dislike many classifications of mental disorders, and do NOT think MLC should ever be considered a true disorder--it's a developmental phase, like post-partum depression, or adolescent maladjustment, not a true disorder, like schizophrenia.  As a person with ADHD, I also find calling that condition a disorder insulting.  There are lots of things I am good at, because of my "disorder" that regular people could never imagine.  There are lots of people with severe dyslexia and other processing disorders that go on to do amazing things, despite their "disorder."  Most of us have "things" about ourselves that we have to shape our lives around--whether it's overcoming childhood abuse, disordered parents, color-blindness, our own "disorders" or cognitive maladjustments--and most of us do. 

I just disagree that MLC is a "disorder." I truly believe MLC is a personality crisis that results in fragile people who, when faced with the tough stuff at midlife, can no longer integrate all the masks and defense mechanisms they have always relied on.  And when that happens, their shadow selves, their dark sides refuse to be held down, and they run.  And that's it, it's as simple as that.  I think "shark eyes" is exactly that--their shadow self, the one they have tried to suppress and bury and the one you never saw before.  And I think that's part of the "denial" of MLC--it's the shame of it all.  "Too bad for you your spouse was weak."  And I really do think it comes down to that.  For all the strength, and good stuff any of our spouses had, at midlife, something caused them to break, and they have to deal with it, but they don't WANT to, and that's where all the blame comes it. 

And that's why it doesn't matter if it is "recognized." Sure there is depression associated with it, but EVERYONE, at some point in their lives faces situational depression.  MOST people pull on their boots and get on with life.  Some people do get diagnosed with true "mental health disorders" after an incidence of depression that rocks their world.  But I think that is a SMALL percentage of MLCers.  Most of them just go bat$h!te crazy because they can. I do think MLC is like addiction or other substance use disorders, which I also do not think are true disorders.  I believe most abusers are self-medicating other disorders, so it is a symptom more than a disorder, but to call it a disorder often allows enabling and the same would be true for MLC. 

Whether addicted to a drug, a woman, or a dream of a better future, every one of those "disordered" people make choices and I refuse to not hold them accountable for them.  I totally ascribe to Alasko's law of personal limitations--"Everyone is always doing as well as they can within their personal limitations, their personal history, what they know and don’t know and what they’re feeling in that moment.  If they could make a healthier decision, they would.  This includes YOU."  But in every action is a choice, and every drug addict and MLCer has moments of clarity where they CAN make different choices and choose not to.  If you don't think that is true, how can you ever trust an addict, and at what point are they "recovered," or are they permanently disordered? 

And I guess that's the crux of it, for me.  I am not willing to give any MLCer an "excuse" for their choices or their behavior, and I am not willing to simply allow an LBS to claim victim to a spouse's disorder.  Sure, it's hard, it's scary and it's downright confusing.  But no matter what you call it, or how you think it may or may not be caused, or cured, the only thing you CAN do is take care of yourself.  The rest is really up to the MLCer, and even if the person can go and get a test and be told their hormones are out of whack and they need to do X, Y, and Z to make it right, they might still choose to look at that hot young secretary and tell you you have no idea what you're talking about--because no medical test is going to force him to face his shame triggers and all the other junk from his childhood, or whatever, that he doesn't want to deal with...

And that's it, if MLC is a disorder, it is a disorder of denial, and that's the problem.  My MLCer KNOWS MLC exists, we've talked about it so many times, in so many different people.  He knew his very own father had one, but when he found himself in the EXACT same pair of shoes at almost the EXACT same age, somehow he was DIFFERENT...       

[LaughLoveLive]

I agree with a lot of what you say LL. It just makes sense. Which doesn't mean I disagree with Anjae.

But to answer the question what would be different if MLC was recognised by society?

I think it would help alleviate some iof the humiliation I felt at being a discarded, unwanted, actively "un chosen" wife.

Perhaps that's a bit pathetic of me - and I'm bracing myself for reactions here - but I have felt humiliated to be so discarded and then so easily replaced.
I'm overcoming that slowly but part of me still feels that I was found wanting, insufficient and that society also views a discarded wife in that way.

I don't feel this way all the time. As I said I'm overcoming that. And no doubt this feeling stems from some FOO issue of my own. Stuff about societal expectations, role of women as wives and mothers ... Blah blah blah...

I guess I feel somehow held to blame for H leaving. Early on, I definitely believed that there were two people in a marriage therefore they were both responsible for the state of the relationship. Therefore I had to step up and acknowledge that, unwittingly, I shared responsibility for things falling apart.

I don't really feel responsibilie for this anymore. I'm not saying I'm perfect or that I was a perfect wife,just...I suppose... That choices were made that were outside my control. Not that I needed to be in control - but I did expect to be part of decisions being made about my marriage.

If society understood? I think there might  be more support for theLBS .More sensitivity. More understanding. More compassion. More useful help and direction from counsellorsif they actually understood and believed. Less guilt. Less humiliation. Less shame. Less blame.

To be honest, I have to admit that I have not found others (ie society) are the cause iof my feelings of blame, humiliation, guilt. I haven't been blamed or shamed, only occasionally have I been told it must have been due to something I did or didn't do.  These feelings are my own.

So maybe the big difference, if MLC was acknowledged by society, would be that i would understand what happened, understand what strategies were useful, and the path to my own healing would be smoother.

[stayed]

I agree completely LLL.  I too felt that way.  I felt that marriages were between two people, therefore equal blame.  Then this happened.  I had no say. I wasn't consulted, I was told, this is how it is.  I too was totally mortified and felt ashamed that I had not seen it coming.  WTH.

I also believe that if it was acknowledged, the courts would go more in our favour.  We are usually the one's being left, with the weaker career and the usually the children as well.  I think it would be easier to protect the finances if it was acknowledged because one of the acknowledged problems with MLC is the excessive spending done by the MLCer.  Often by the time the spouse realizes what is going on, half the savings are gone, or more.  I did not experience this personally, but still this thing cost us a lot of money.  My new life that I was setting up in Canada was not cheap.

I think that if there was more acknowledgment that it truly exists, it might be easier to have all bank accounts, savings accounts, pension accounts, even mortgages frozen and protected.  The least the law can do is protect the children, so that their lives do not change as drastically as we often see.  Often being left with barely enough to pay the bills and EAT.  That is just wrong.

I just think the family needs to be more protected from this very selfish affliction.  Not really sure what they could do, but at least freeze things other then for the daily expenses/mortgages etc. until a clearer picture is known.

No "flogging" from me LaughLoveLive... a few more safe guards I guess is what I am advocating for.

Hugs Stayed

[Slow Fade]

Oh LLL I felt the same way! Whew, its so comforting to have someone articulate what you have been feeling since BD!!!! Thank you!