[Dji76]

Thundarr, agree with everything you said. Relationships are just 2 people together meeting each others needs. I'll admit, w and I were lost in each other for most of 19 years. It was unhealthy and codependent. I thought that was love. WRONG. Now I have no idea what love means or if it even exits other than parental love towards our children. Everyone else is just meeting a need and disposable/replaceable. Love in the "I can't live without you" sense is a lie.

[terrified_in_TN]

Hold on fellas...

  I too found myself questioning whether "love" really existed or not, but I DO believe in it.  Absolutely.  If you doubt love at all, then wouldn't that mean you never truly loved your spouse?  OF COURSE YOU DID!  Co-dependence or not, you loved your spouse.  We all did.  If we didn't we would have told them "don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya" on their way out, instead of turning into a puddle of tears on the floor.

  With the talk of co-dependence, maybe there is a "healthier" kind of love than what we have been used to, but you all know damn well we loved each other.

  Does "love" last forever?  Are two humans biologically programmed for monogamy for life?  These are the questions I struggle with.  But personally, I for one do NOT doubt the existance of love.

-T

[OldPilot]

I don't think the hormonal question is even up for debate anymore.  We now know that peri and menopause cause major changes in women, but also that men go through andropause as well.  OP has maintained a hormonal connection ever si Ce he, Hobo/TB and I were on the peri site several years ago and I've not seen anyone challenge him on that.

I agree with the above, however with the following exception.

I personally have gone through a lot of andropause symptoms but have never had a MLC.
There are many women on this site who have gone through menopause and not have MLC's so while the above is TRUE, it is not a guarantee that if you go through menopause or andropause that you will have a MLC!!

Hope that is clear.

[Thundarr]

Exactly, OP.  I think ALL men and women will go through hormonal changes in mid-life, barring those who have medical issues that prevent it, so that cannot be the only trigger for MLC.  My point was just that it's accepted that it exists and there is a world of evidence that MLC is likely tied to it, but not exclusively.


Edit - Yes we are in agreement - OP

[Braveheart]

I don't think the hormonal question is even up for debate anymore.  We now know that peri and menopause cause major changes in women, but also that men go through andropause as well.  OP has maintained a hormonal connection ever si Ce he, Hobo/TB and I were on the peri site several years ago and I've not seen anyone challenge him on that.

I agree with the above, however with the following exception.

I personally have gone through a lot of andropause symptoms but have never had a MLC.
There are many women on this site who have gone through menopause and not have MLC's so while the above is TRUE, it is not a guarantee that if you go through menopause or andropause that you will have a MLC!!

Hope that is clear.

That's why I've always maintained andro/peri is a trigger rather than it's main cause, it just tips the scale. I'm sure there are many women who do not leave because they simply have had no other offers, or their symptoms maybe not a severe, it's more of a midlife transition than crisis.

I've read many accounts of wives who have had emotional/physical affairs at Peri that ended and the husband was none the wiser. The wife simply weighed her options and stayed, the rest of her crisis played out in house, the husband hunkered in the Man Cave during the worst of it until it passed.

The famous clergyman Billy Graham and his wife were interviewed years ago, I think is was during their 60 anniversary, they were asked what their secret was to their long marriage...before Billy could say anything his wife said, " I think it was because we never hated one another at the same time" ....

[Mad Hatter]

Hold on fellas...

  I too found myself questioning whether "love" really existed or not, but I DO believe in it.  Absolutely.  If you doubt love at all, then wouldn't that mean you never truly loved your spouse?  OF COURSE YOU DID!  Co-dependence or not, you loved your spouse.  We all did.  If we didn't we would have told them "don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya" on their way out, instead of turning into a puddle of tears on the floor.

  With the talk of co-dependence, maybe there is a "healthier" kind of love than what we have been used to, but you all know damn well we loved each other.

  Does "love" last forever?  Are two humans biologically programmed for monogamy for life?  These are the questions I struggle with.  But personally, I for one do NOT doubt the existance of love.

-T

Interesting points.

If you get to the source of it, "Love" is simply the chemicals in your brain at play when your needs are getting met to someone you are attracted to. Now, what drives that attraction varies between the sexes and person to person.

I'm not going to get into the debate right now whether we are geared for monogamy or not. What I will say, is if the the chemicals at work ever stop; if the needs that drive them either stop being met, the needs change, or someone else comes along that can be perceived to meet them better, then there will be a shift and the "Love" will not be felt anymore!

As the LBS, you probably were getting some needs met OR, you truly WANTED you spouse to meet those needs, OR you were still highly attracted, etc, etc. This is what leaves you a pool on the floor!
But after so much hurt is done you either a) Disconnect and stand, with the hope they come back but no expectations, or b) you disconnect and move on and the pain slowly fades.

[terrified_in_TN]

... "Love" is simply the chemicals in your brain at play when your needs are getting met...

Not to be facetious, but isn't "life" simply chemical actions and electric currents carried from our brains to our bodies?

You know I am really starting to hate that word "NEED"...I guess the goal of self healing is to get us to a point we don't "NEED" anyone but ourselves.  Really?  Okay, so at bomb drop maybe I thought I "NEEDED" my wife like I "NEED" oxygen, but the truth of the matter is, we as humans don't "NEED" a lot to survive.  Food, water, shelter, and oxygen.  Do I "NEED" anyone in my life to live; of course not.  However, I have a "NEED" for companionship.  I have a need to LIVE, not merely exist.  Will I find "love" again one day-Maybe, maybe not.  However, as angry as I am over my own personal situation and certain people in it, I REFUSE to turn into a bitter old man that hates ALL women, and no longer believes in love.  I REFUSE to get to a point that being "in love" is only real when you are young.

-T

[Mad Hatter]

... "Love" is simply the chemicals in your brain at play when your needs are getting met...

Not to be facetious, but isn't "life" simply chemical actions and electric currents carried from our brains to our bodies?

You know I am really starting to hate that word "NEED"...I guess the goal of self healing is to get us to a point we don't "NEED" anyone but ourselves.  Really?  Okay, so at bomb drop maybe I thought I "NEEDED" my wife like I "NEED" oxygen, but the truth of the matter is, we as humans don't "NEED" a lot to survive.  Food, water, shelter, and oxygen.  Do I "NEED" anyone in my life to live; of course not.  However, I have a "NEED" for companionship.  I have a need to LIVE, not merely exist.  Will I find "love" again one day-Maybe, maybe not.  However, as angry as I am over my own personal situation and certain people in it, I REFUSE to turn into a bitter old man that hates ALL women, and no longer believes in love.  I REFUSE to get to a point that being "in love" is only real when you are young.

-T

TITN,

I actually kind of agree with you on some of this. I too am finding I don't "need" anyone but me to find happiness and to live. It's more of a "PREFERENCE" or a "WANT" to share it with someone. The difference is walking into it with my eyes wide-open to reality instead of blindly as a young man.

Reality is "Love" is not the fantasy we were force-fed as kids; the reality is much more sobering!

Nobody wants to be bitter and hate all women/men, but there are some harsh truths about the modern man and woman that need to be realized. Extreme entitlement and selfishness is the status quo of "I can have it all and the ice cream too"; marriage / LTR is disposable once we have got everything we can out of it or it is no longer what we "want"!

This new generation is even worse about it!

[Mad Hatter]

The famous clergyman Billy Graham and his wife were interviewed years ago, I think is was during their 60 anniversary, they were asked what their secret was to their long marriage...before Billy could say anything his wife said, " I think it was because we never hated one another at the same time" ....

I have an eBook I got early on; the title slips my mind at the moment but it was a freebie with some other material. It was written by a couple that had been together for 50+ years and one of the quotes was very similar; "we never fell 'out of love' with each other at the same time."

[Braveheart]

There is an old saying, " You are only as faithful as your options" in our modern world these options are thrown at us 24/7 via the media, work and social gatherings on a scale that would have been unheard of even in the early 1980's. As for women, I don't hate them, I'm just more aware of the true nature of them, like men they have their programming and we have ours.