[MeNow]

Is this convo still about the merits of getting a prostitute? If your desire is reconciliation, then no, not a good idea.
If not, I still want the real thing. Best to finish it with your spouse first.

[Braveheart]

There's a lot of twisted logic going on here, lets set this straight, there is a big difference between a drug addled street hooker and a high end escort. Elray is not talking about a hooker. In regards to the morality of it, well if one's wife has committed adultery and you're divorced, you are a free agent.
The idea you should remain pure for years in the hope she's coming back, while she is having sex with multiple someone else's is rediculous, and living in denial of reality.

Which brings me to the next point, Sex is a very important part of a healthy man's life, he needs it to remain sane. Women have no idea in this department what a man deals with and try and shame men into believing they are unreasonable for expecting regular sex in a realtionship. The only women that have any idea what a man goes through are female bodybuilders who have taken male steriods. They've found that even taken at a tenth of the level the average man has in his body, that their sex drive is uncontrollable and had to masterbate several times a day just to function.

In regards to worrying what a MLC'er thinks about what you do with your life after they've left? The MLC'er has no right to any consideration from you and you should not give a damn what they think. Tracking their every movement, kissing their ass and looking for hints of an R is a waste of your life. If you build a new life, with or without someone else, you begin to truly see that you deserve more than they will ever be capable of giving you. You'll probably find as I have that you become too strong to ever fall into the trap again of being the rug they can sweep their toxic crap under again. They have to prove their worthiness, not you.

In terms of the whole standing issue I have some problems with the religious rationalizations some fall back on to remain standing when all other reasons are no longer valid.

Number 1, even biblically if your wife has committed adultery your marriage is over anyway, The vows have been broken, you have grounds for divorce.

Number 2, once divorced they are no longer your wife.

Number 3. If divorced and she's been cohabiting with the OM for a period of time ( depends on state or province) she's technically in a common law marriage. Which means one would be lusting after someone else's wife if still standing at that point.

[Dji76]

Brain I agree with your post. I would add its up to each of us to decide when that line is crossed and when to hold them accountable for their decisions. I understand my w is in crisis but she has also cheated and tried to hide it... So she knows it is WRONG. To say someone in mlc has no control and should not be accountable is enabling imo. Look, many of them have spending issues but they don't rob banks and convenient stores. Why? Because they know it is wrong AND there are repercussions. I have empathy for what my w is going through but I also love myself enough to say her actions are not ok. I could flip the script and say to all the standers to stop being afraid of moving on alone. That's the opposite to the ego argument in your post. My point is it's a balancing act that each of us must manage according to our own beliefs. The great thing at HS, at least what I've found great, is the support. Stand or divorce, we are all supportive in a way that most others who have not been in our shoes can not offer. I chose to move on not only because of what my w is chosing to do now, but also because the emotional distance I have now allowed me to see things more clearly. My w has always had serious issues that I didn't realize because she was all that I knew. I loved her more than I loved myself so and chose to overlook her issues. Nothing to do with my ego.

[MyBrainIsBroken]

DJ, I understand and respect your position. You seem to have good reasons for ending your stand. I don't know what I would do if I were in your situation or anyone else's. I don't even know what I will eventually do in my situation. All I know is what I am doing right now. But, based on some of the comments I have read, not all of them but some, I believe I understand why there are so few stories of reconciliations with female mlcers and why I have heard of several female mlcers who wanted to come back but the lbs wasn't interested. I'm not saying it's good or bad, but I came to this site because I want to stand for my marriage and I'm not really interested in learning how to get to the point where I won't want to reconcile with my wife if she ever reaches that point.

With regards to the sex thing, one of the first things I did after BD was to check to see if was too late for me to become a Catholic priest, so maybe I believe I'm capable of showing more restraint in that area than a typical male. Or maybe I'm just low on testosterone. Oh, and please don't start telling stories about all of the Catholic priest scandals because there are far more priests that serve faithfully without ever being involved in any kind of scandal.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I think I'll go find some threads where I can pander to the female lbsers. It's a whole lot more fun.   

[MeNow]

I didn't have elray pegged as the drug addled hooker type when I made my statement.

I agree with some of BH's post such as the part about becoming strong and your own person. Valuing yourself.

I don't like getting into religious "arguments" as they are futile. However, there is a reason some why some Christians choose to remain standing. Besides loving their spouse, they choose to serve God in their personal way AND according to it's teachings. These are their own personal convictions and  beliefs. And they are entitled to them.

To say they are wrong for them is nothing more than a personal opinion, period. One would have to read the Bible themselves to understand it.

[bookwrmmom]

I try to leave the man cave to the men, but like to read it because it helps me figure out what makes you men tick. I had to reply to Braveheart on a couple of points.
Brave I believe sex is a VERY important part of a healthy woman's life too. A lot of us ladies are at our "sexual peak" so to speak, and are extremely "frustrated". I cannot relate to how a man feels without it, but as RCR says "you can take things in your own hands."
Now so can woman, but I believe that many women of our age (40's-50's) have been stifled a bit sexually (about "self service"). I think you have to get to a certain maturity/confidence level in yourself to learn to take care of your own needs (as a woman). For men it has always been an acceptable means of taking care of business.
Brave I also agree with your Number 1- biblically when your spouse has cheated, you are released from your vows. I have counseled with my pastor from nearly day 1. H ended our vows, I did not. I def admire standing for your vows, but if you decide to move on.....perfectly acceptable in the eyes of God.

[MyBrainIsBroken]

The release from your vows thing is quite interesting. I was raised Catholic and I was a good Catholic. I was even an alter boy for several years. But when I married, I married a non-Catholic and was married in a Methodist church. Seven years later, the day before our anniversary, we renewed our vows by getting married in a Catholic church (technically a Convalidation ceremony). We now attend a Wesleyan church as the Wesleyan church in our town has a terrific children's program and the Catholic church isn't very active except on Sunday morning.

So now, my Pastor has told me I could divorce and remarry and it would be ok but in the eyes of the Catholic church I am married forever. Surprisingly, I take some comfort in knowing that my wife will always be my wife in the eyes of the Catholic church no matter what happens.

Sorry if this is too much religion.

[Rollercoasterider]

To clarify a few things:
First, On the quote about low value women, I feel equally about men.  There are men and women who I would not want a relationship with.  Didn't feel it was needed at the time I made that reference to clarify its not a gender thing.

I get that you did not mean it as a gender thing—you just happened to be speaking of women rather than either gender. For me it's one of those Unconditionals things—Grace, Agape, Forgiveness. I don't like everyone and don't want a relationship with everyone. Then there are people that I don't dislike, but I don't have or want a relationship with them because they just aren't my type. But I do believe that everyone is worthy of the Unconditionals. I believe everyone is valuable. IT's a Jesus loves everyone sort of thing, but I imagine even Jesus doesn't like everyone.
I did not and still do not like the alienator, but I also think she is worthy of love and prayers and that she was (and probably still is) lost and not mentally well.

My motivations behind this topic was to examine that point in a stand where you start going wobbly.  It is an intellectual interest. I'm not personally at that point right now but I have come close to dating several times.
... Ultimately RCR its your site and if a topic is verboten we can drop it.

I did not feel your post needed censoring (YUCK) and I understand the intellectual aspect of the discussion.
Some people think it was vile and should not be here, that's not me. What I find vile is direct insults about men or women--such as labeling all women b!tches or all men j@acka$$es. You asked a question and I felt it needed a response--no problems though.

Another consenting woman is bad but paying for sex is worse.   It's that hierarchy I am intrigued by.

I was thinking about this last night after posting. Paid sex is not uncommon and never has been and it has been acceptable in various cultures throughout history—in some as part of a lower class and even shameful, yet accepted part of society which is, I think, what it was in the US (think Madame's rather than pimps), but with the sex trafficking/sex slave trade and the drugged out desperate street walkers it is not as accepted as it may have once been.
Do I personally have a problem with paying for sex--or professional sex servers?
No, not in certain contexts.
Consider the traditional Geisha or sacred prostitute.

I also am not so prudish about the high-class escort who controls her own life and is choosing that life—though even in those situations many are acting from former incest or other abusive situations and perhaps are not really in control as they or others may think.

I am not against a couple who agree to an open marriage. I admit to being skeptical as to whether such a situation will work if they are in a society that is not accepting and so it may not really be what is best if the couple considers their relationship a 'til death do us part one.

Most women and maybe most men—though I imagine not as high a percentage as most women—enter marriages with an assumption and intention of monogamy—to the point that it is either a spoken or unspoken vow. I have a problem with paying for external sex in such situations and my default assumption or generalization of a Stander is that they fit this context. I am also against prostitution when the workers are forced either because of their situations—though they may technically be choosing to sell their services—or because they are being forced by another—sex slaves.
Perhaps there are ways to tell, but I imagine the smart pimps/traffickers can make their businesses seem like those that are... more reputable or safe.

I have coached people who tried swinging, who have had an affair themselves and people who are Standing and dating or planning to date with no issues for them having dating as part of their Stand—it is more often a male Stander than a female Stander who has no issues with dating while Standing. But I have not judged their choices. I've heard it quite a bit from men that they think dating—with the option of sexual relationships—will help rather than hinder their Stand.
As a woman I admit to chuckling at this because it is so far from my own view and I think it's one of those gender gap things. I also chuckle because I think this will be a problem for some—maybe many—of the MLCers who would want to return someday. It would and wouldn't be for me. What I mean is that I would probably consider it a betrayal just as (had I been a cheating MLCer) I had been a betrayer and thus I would be in sort of in the position I was as the betrayed where I needed to work through being betrayed and forgiving...even while working through being the betrayer.  Would that make me a hypocrite or is it one of those two wrongs don't make a right sort of situations?
I understand that this is not a discussion about revenge affairs which I imagine more of you would be against than simply dating or friends with benefits because you have needs or because you are moving on with the option of reconciliation still available.

Someone said that in a reconciliation point a pro would be harder to explain than an emotional entanglement--a true affair. I strongly disagree with the realities of that statement. In fact I would argue that most would explain it away by equating it- it was just sex--I was lonely.

I agree as well. For me it does not matter the context. Though in general women are concerned about emotional ties—so affairs that are emotional without sex can be just as threatening and I understand that. I think that the consent versus paying issue may also be about whether sex is considered sacred and to me it is sacred—something we share and reserve for each other only and though I understand the needs issue—I'm the higher sex-drive partner, so I do; sex is still sacred enough for me that I will abstain (and did) if necessary. To me it is just not a casual or friends with benefits sort of thing and I have no doubt that is due to my religious upbringing. I wasn't raised strict—my mother is a lot more open with sex than I am and I have no issue with that, she can have friends with benefits (she might not see it that way) and I think it can be good for her. My dad is also more open, but he lacks boundaries in my view and his idea of what constitutes fidelity and infidelity differs from mine—I often think that he just doesn't get it.

There's a lot of twisted logic going on here, lets set this straight, there is a big difference between a drug addled street hooker and a high end escort.

Not necessarily. The label escort is becoming more widespread—at least in some places.

In regards to worrying what a MLCer thinks about what you do with your life after they've left? The MLCer has no right to any consideration from you and you should not give a damn what they think. Tracking their every movement, kissing their ass and looking for hints of an R is a waste of your life. If you build a new life, with or without someone else, you begin to truly see that you deserve more than they will ever be capable of giving you.

EVER? My reconciled marriage is great, thank you very much. Point: Chuck is capable now.
I did not kiss his a$$ or track his every move, but I did care about what he thought. That does not mean I let that control my actions, it means I was empathetic and caring about my husband even while he was not being the same toward me. That is what Standing is about.

They have to prove their worthiness, not you.

YEAH—I agree. Being worthy of agape is not the same as being worthy of romantic love (Eros) from me. Perhaps all souls are worthy of Eros from an individual—in general, but not all people are safe for a partner; the idea is to become safe or worthy.

Number 1, even biblically if your wife has committed adultery your marriage is over anyway, The vows have been broken, you have grounds for divorce.

Number 2, once divorced they are no longer your wife.

Here is how I see the Biblical perspective.
God allows divorce, but that does not mean re-marriage to someone other than the original spouse (if they are living) is allowed.
This is how I interpret it Biblically, this does not mean that I would follow it; I'm not a fundamentalist and I don't follow a strict interpretation, but in this case it seems to me to be how it was meant.
I was only 32.5 at Bomb Drop, so I think I would have eventually moved on to at least considering and seeking other relationships had my situation gotten to the point. But it did not and so it is not something I explored.

Number 3. If divorced and she's been cohabiting with the OM for a period of time ( depends on state or province) she's technically in a common law marriage. Which means one would be lusting after someone else's wife if still standing at that point.

Not everyone agrees with common-law marriage and the law differs on it in different places as well. Does the law treat such marriages the same during (ex. at tax time) and of the relationship ends? Do common law spouses need a legal divorce? Maybe in some places the law equates common law and legal-contractual marriage, but I doubt it is this way everywhere.

[Braveheart]

With Common Law marriage it depends on wear you live, but in many states and provinces you are considered married if you have been cohabiting for an extended period of time and subject to division of property and child custody/support issues should you split up.

Where I live if you cohabit for 3 years, or have a child and a relationship of some permanence you're considered married in the eyes of the government. In some areas you only have to cohabit for one year for it to legally kick in. So the reality is that if your X Wife is living with the OM long enough, as far as the government is concerned she is his spouse.

My comment about the MLC'er not being likely to ever meet your needs is a realistic viewpoint. In terms of the MLC'er, many of them appear to do very little work on themselves and place blame on everyone else, their personal growth all in the negative aspects. On the other hand, in order to survive the spouse who has been left behind often pulls out all stops to improve their lives, spiritually, mentally and physically. The new person the left behind spouse becomes now has even less in common with the MLC'er than ever before.

From the new and improved LBS's standpoint there is not much to gain having an R with your MLC'er when much of what you've done to change your life is not compatible with their's past or present. I have many positive activities in my life now I know my X has no interest in and would never share with me. She would either expect me to give them up or attempt to make me feel guilty for continuing to do them if there was a R. When you get to that point, and have done all that work to rebuild your live, having an R with your the MLC'er does not seem like such a good deal.

[osb]

My comment about the MLC'er not being likely to ever meet your needs is a realistic viewpoint. In terms of the MLC'er, many of them appear to do very little work on themselves and place blame on everyone else, their personal growth all in the negative aspects. 

You know, I might've agreed fully with this statement until a few months ago. Then my H unexpectedly managed to pull his head out of his ass (was none of my doing, all his; proctocranial extraction ain't my specialty). So i guess some do the work, eventually. Not that we should hold our breaths waiting...

One thing I just don't get...

Another consenting woman is bad but paying for sex is worse.   It's that hierarchy I am intrigued by.

Um, really? Consenting partner no different from hooker? Nobody just lightly trades away their dignity for cash. Taking advantage of someone else's unspoken desperation has got to feel different from emotional consent. Otherwise we're all dead inside. Gender has no bearing on this.