[Ready2Transform]

Sorry wondering, I hadn't seen your posts when I replied! Goes without saying that I am "ditto"ing both of them about discontinuation!!

The only thing wrong with your theory is usually bi-polar generally shows up by early adulthood.  Like early 20's.  If your W is Bi-polar she would have been diagnoses way before now.

I need to find the link (I believe it's in the DSM), but about 9% of bipolars are diagnosed at midlife, and have their first significant manic episode then. My H did have symptoms in his youth, but I only can see that now much like MLC, by looking back and creating a timeline. His parents weren't the kind of people who would have encouraged psychiatry, to say the least, even though there is a large history of mental health problems in the family (the shame of that actually makes them less likely to want to have a diagnosis in the family, I believe). His problems do run bigger than MLC, but as many people have told me, you can't help someone who doesn't want help. So OW now has to deal with the mood swings and the attitude. Good for her.

T, just to point out a pattern I have to watch with myself: I start to detach and everything is going great, then I find myself in the middle of the night googling Hoss problems. It's not the googling that's the problem, it's my brain's reaction to detachment. It tries to pull me back to where I was at and comfortable!

Is there a chance your brain is doing that, too? That you were getting more steady and stable and then this presented itself, and you were emotionally pulled back in to treat this as a crisis that is brand new? Will bringing this up to your colleagues make them feel you're focusing too much on your xW again?

The goal should be to get to the point of seeing these things and NOT being emotionally moved by them. Should they be considered? Sure! You can say, "Oh yeah....I could see where that may have been an issue. Maybe I'll mention it to OW next time I see her...or not...since it's her life." I post links on my Google+ page sometimes, to things I would have shared with the old Hoss. If he cyber stalks me, which periodically he does, he can see them, but it's not why I do it. I just have to bleed the vein, and that's the best way without overtly reaching out. I had to stop trying. God showed me He had it under control, and didn't need an assistant.

Could Hoss perceive the links as helping or hurting? YES. LOL Whatever personality he is in will interpret them in whatever way he wants. In the meantime, my page can be a bit of a bookmark for other people who are googling these things, too (I get comments sometimes that show it's good for that, too). But mainly it's for me.

[Thunder]

9% of bipolars are diagnosed at midlife

Ready, I never heard that before.  There is bp in my 1st H's family but every one of them were about 21 years old when it became apparent.  Well between 19 and 22.

Thundarr, I did just read that if a person shows signs of bp or has a family history of it they should not be given Zolof.
Was her doctor aware it ran in her family?  There are other meds they can take.

But I guess I would let her talk to her doctor and let them decide.  It does seem to be working for her.  I read on one of your earlier threads that when she was not on it she said she just cried all the time and was emotional.

[Ready2Transform]

This isn't the link I was looking for from the DSM (I'll dig it out and edit this), but here's one article on Late Onset diagnosis: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2848458/

It IS generally a young, male diagnosis, so I won't argue with that. But this does happen. Either way - they need a TEAM, not a fixer spouse.


Edited to add (I think I have another reference, too, but this one is important), from http://www.healthyplace.com/bipolar-disorder/bipolar-support/dealing-with-bipolar-mania-help-for-caregivers/ . We've discussed it here before as well http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=6328.0

False euphoria is the beginning stage of true bipolar disorder.  Behavior is similar to that seen with drug use, a cocaine-like high.  People with euphoric mania say they feel great/wonderful/beautiful/fantastic, but make many mistakes such as recklessly spending too much money, having sex with anyone who looks appealing, sleeping a lot less and not getting tired and ultimately making very poor life decisions.  It's common for people with full-blown euphoric mania to stay up for weeks, start very risky businesses or simply pick up and leave their current life. Euphoric mania can be very cruel and selfish as the emphasis is strictly on the person with bipolar. The person can be extremely reckless and unable to judge the safety or effect of their behaviors. There will be rapid and sometimes violent mood swings, rage alternating with maniacal laughter.  This type of mania can lead to a lot of drug and alcohol use as the person feels so good they lose perspective on the amount they consume. Euphoric mania always starts out feeling great, but ultimately the person comes down and often sees a path of destruction that is hard to clean up. Bipolar patients have difficulty seeing that their behavior is out of line in an acute manic episode. The massive high, which seems abnormal to us, seems normal to them, and there is an unfortunate tendency to self medicate.

At more extreme levels, up to 70% of people in a manic state and 50% of all individuals with bipolar disorder experience psychosis, or a break with reality, along with loss of ability to reason. Of this 70%, over half are euphoric psychotic manias, which are particularly difficult to diagnose as they can be so appealing and fun to the people around the manic person. Manic behavior attracts people who want to join in on the ride. Left unmedicated, people experiencing bipolar psychosis will resist treatment, as they are convinced nothing is wrong with them, they are sure of their reasoning and enjoy the high.

During a manic episode, the person's behavior feels "right," obvious and makes very clear sense, even if it makes no sense to those around the patient or is extremely risky. After the manic episode has run its course, it may be possible for the patient to see how unrealistic, unreal and out-of-touch with reality they were, but this isn't possible during a manic episode.

Functional MRI findings suggest that abnormal modulation between ventral prefrontal and limbic regions, especially the amygdala, likely contribute to poor emotional regulation and mood symptoms.

The neurotransmitter associated with psychosis is dopamine.  Antipsychotics that work on the dopamine system effectively decrease psychotic symptoms.  Most researchers believe other neurotransmitters are involved as well:  serotonin and norepinephrine are also closely linked to bipolar disorder.

Average age of onset of bipolar disorder is 21; first manifestations are common between the ages of 20-24.  Many start feeling depressed between the ages of 15-25.  Symptoms in teenagers focus on lack of judgment and risky behavior:  drunk driving, substance abuse. The younger the age of onset of bipolar disorder, the more likely it is to find a significant family history of the condition.  In 10% of bipolar cases, a manic episode occurred around age 50. As an individual ages, s/he may develop new-onset mania associated with vascular changes, or become manic only after recurrent depressive episodes. In the elderly, recognition and treatment of bipolar disorder may be complicated by the presence of dementia or the side effects of medications being taken for other conditions.

The vast majority of patients with bipolar disorder have multiple recurrences (Keller et al, 1993), and it is very rare for patients to have a single episode of hypomania or depression in bipolar disorder over a lifetime. The length of symptom-free intervals often decreases with age.

Untreated bipolar disorder is commonly associated with substance use, abuse and dependence (Tohen et al, 1995); school and work failure; interpersonal dysfunction and relationship breakdown.

[lawprofessor]

In the beginning of this I went with j to the doctor.  He wanted medication to help him quit drinking.  He made the appointment himself.  The physicians assistant spoke with both of us.  He was excellent.   He prescribed Zoloft, a mood stabilizer, respiridone, sleeping pills, a blood pressure pill, and a cholesterol pill.  I doled out the pills for a few weeks as he was not trustworthy with narcotics in my judgment.  The pa saw us together once a week to adjust the medications and monitor his progress.  I also had his personal phone number to report any problems immediately.   

Over time his medication has been adjusted downward in dosage. 

But all this only took place AFTER he went through the REAL depression stage when he aired his demons.  And he has worked on talking out issues.  And he has worked on behavior modification.  And worked on thought modification.

His pa is surprised he has been able to decrease his dosage over the last couple years as that would not be the expected course for the average bipolar.  But I thank God each and every day for that man and his skill in diagnosing and prescribing accurately for j. 

Best LP

[Thundarr]

T, With all due respect, you're showing serious NARC behavior.  Is it your own MLC?  Are you okay?  I showed up here expecting to read some great new research you found, but no, it is you hypothesizing, diagnosing and fixing... everyone but yourself.  T, you need to STAND BACK.  Even if she is showing signs of wanting you, your clinging is not helping your case.  TBH, if you were always this way, I can see why she didn't want to be married to you...  Let her go, let her work on herself, let her see you become the independent person she wants to be and let her be attracted to that shining light.   

And why are you overlooking the one effect of anti-Ds we have ALWAYS known--that sometimes they work, and when they work, they make people feel better, sometimes a LOT better, really quickly, which can lead to short-term changes, like hyper-sexualization, and suicide--because for some people a lot better means they still feel like $hit, but can finally get off the sofa and do something about it--like jump off a bridge.  But she seems to have leveled out.

WHY, in all your education have you not learned rule 1!  You can only own your own stuff.  Unless someone ASKS you for help, you can't and should not inflict your help.  We all have our own brand of crazy, and none of us will ever be totally fixed.  If I were your wife right now, I would be so pissed, and because we have kids together, I would say nothing, but you could bet your sweet patootie, there'd be a LOT of purposefully passive aggressive s@#$ flying your way in the short-term.  You think I'm crazy, I'll show you crazy... 

T, you care too much about trying to guess what everyone else is thinking and feeling and doing but yourself--you think they don't know that.  I bet even your little ones know how to play...  If we say sad stuff about Mom, Dad does what we want...  Even if it's not true...  Don't underestimate what your kids know and how mature they can be about feelings and manipulation...  You are not necessarily the smartest one in the room, not about how YOU behave and what others KNOW... 

I was hoping to stop in here and see you had grown, but dude you seem stuck (I took a quick look at your last thread)!  I wish you well, but you need to get a grip, ASAP, let her go, find yourself.  Many people know that too many therapists become therapists for reasons too personal and, in fact they are in no position to help you because the only perspective they have is their own...  Don't be that guy, love and light, ll

I wanted to address LL's post for two reasons.  First off, for those who may not be familiar with LL or myself or know the history of the discussions we have had together this may well have come across as harsh, aggressive or even as an attack.  But LL knows me well enough to know that I not only REspect blunt honesty from others but in many cases EXpect it.  This statement punched me right in the gut, which was likely the intended effect and only did so because it hit home with me.  She's right, and it caused me to do a bit of soul-searching that may have enlightened me as to where this side of my nature comes from (more on that on my personal thread as I don't want to derail this one further).  The second reason I wanted to address LL's post was to say, "Thank you, my friend" for the blunt honesty and for caring enough to say it.  Thanks to LP, Ready2 and several others for keeping this discussion going as well. 

To give a brief update, the two ARNP's I contacted in regards to this had a bit of a mixed but not opposite reaction.  The first, who is not a psych ARNP, had not heard of this but said it is entirely possible.  The second, who IS a psych ARNP, not only said it was possible but has seen it firsthand over the years.  I didn't go into detail but my assumption is that it was with clients who were misdiagnosed as having depression alone rather than Bipolar with depressive symptoms as a modifier.  I'll be interested to get our psychiatrist's perspective next week, and as far as them wondering if I'm focusing too much on XW the good thing is that the assumption is that I'm simply asking in regards to a client or general knowledge.  I'll probably drop it after a few days as Ready2 had suggested and just chalk it up to one other possible factor.  Incidentally, I don't want to derail this thread further but should I contact XW and tell her NOT to d/c the Zoloft?  If so, should I play if off as if I thought I was contacting D22 or that I was just half asleep?  Or do nothing?

[evas]

Everyone here has already answered the question you ask, so if you reread what people are telling you, you will know that you should do NOTHING.

Now, can you do that?

FWIW, I echo everything LisaLives says.

[Thundarr]

Everyone here has already answered the question you ask, so if you reread what people are telling you, you will know that you should do NOTHING.

Now, can you do that?

FWIW, I echo everything LisaLives says.

I knew you would, Evas!  Thanks to you as well, and yes, I will say nothing else to XW on the topic unless she brings it up.

[ArmySpouse]

T,

The thing is, Iam like LL too. Blunt. Sometimes too honest for people's tastes and well let's say it doesn't always sit well with some .. I even got accused of being arrogant .. Guess that's what they call it.

Anyways, I read it and wanted to say I read an honest approach of LL on there and a need to HELP you and not talking down or whatever. I appreciate that honest post a lot even if it wasn't geared towards me at all. But I talk like that too (not always but when it's needed) and I expect the same from my friends. I get lied to a lot now so I want the brutal honesty as this shakes my core and makes me realize and listen.. When you need it you need it!

I'd say kudos to LL and you got a great friendship .. I know you know that. Be grateful.mi know you are..

[OldPilot]

I want to relate a story of my own since my mother is bipolar and so is my daughter.

When my daughter first was diagnosed with this I could only see what had happened with my mother who was always in denial about her disease.
So the first day when my daughter was suppose to take the meds and was hemming and hawing about whether she should do it or not, I decided to sneak the pills into her system.

MAJOR MISTAKE on my part.

The doctor found out and boy was I in trouble.

Now looking back on this I can see how my fixing did not help the situation at all.

My daughter has really come quite a ways since this happened and taken complete responsibility for her own mental health, my mother - errrr - NO!

My mother is on depakote and it seems pretty harsh and really does not keep her under control.
I have no knowledge about Zoloft but my daughter is on Abilify and it really seems to help her.

Oh and one other thing that was really bothering me was that I thought
that I had gentically passed all the bipolar genes on to my daughter.
We have been doing genetic testing and family tree research and my son uncovered
that some of my wifes family are bipolar and have been on meds for years.
So my self blame was not really found in science and lots of worry was
totally wrong.


Bottom line - the patient really needs to be responsible for themselves.
I wish it were some other way but it never works if someone else takes responsibility.

[Thunder]

I would only contact her if you think she listened to you and stopped taking the meds.

You wouldn't need to call her just maybe a short text telling her you should not have told her to stop and to talk to her doctor.

That's all you would need to say...but ONLY if you know she stopped.
jmo