[OldPilot]

What I suggest is that that there are a few topics that perhaps should be openly discussed.

• Whether standers should be the only ones who are on the HS forum?
• Whether NC (which as far as I can see - I really was never in) is a doomsday to a R?
• Is there a role for the "Bitter" divorced moderators on the forum?

But I suggest that you take these discussions to an independent thread so they can be discussed objectively - and not in context of how I have lived my life.

Airmid requested a separate thread be used to discuss these issues I will start it here.

[OldPilot]

I thought I would add a comment - as I am (most likely) one of the divorced, bitter moderators.

Sigh.

I was married for 30 years before all this crap happened.  My Ex filed for divorce a year after running away from home...and never made any effort to finalize it.  Three years after he left, I finalized it myself.  At the time, I felt it was what I needed to do to protect myself financially (my ex is a spender).  I still feel the same.

That being said....now almost 3 years divorced....almost 6 years since BD - I have been NC with my Ex since the divorce was final.  I say that I am NC...but, actually, I just allow my Ex to "control" our contact....he never contacts....and I don't reach out.  We are divorced...it is done.  We are NC.

There are some things to be said about finalizing the divorce that you never wanted.....different words and feelings come to mind.  Sadness, anger, defeat, emptiness, apathy, empowerment, hope, utter and complete devastation.....

I would say that there is no joy in divorce.  There is no happiness in divorce.  I did feel a sense of relief.  Relief that I no longer chose to allow myself to live in the fear that someday - the other shoe would drop.  He would divorce me.  I'd be forced to leave my home. 

I no longer fear the future.  The future is here....and it is what it is. 

Now, almost 6 years later - I would appear to be Standing.  There is no new person in my life, nor has there been one this entire time.

Yet....I am pretty much done.  (Which is not quite totally done...but done, nonetheless).

Air has decided to get divorced.  That is HER choice.  If she is NC...that is HER choice.  I can't understand the desire or need to judge her. 

I sometimes feel that the Standing LBS here (some of them?) have so much internal hurt/anger/sadness/frustration that they end of picking on...or attacking other LBS.  This is something that I cannot understand.  Whatever differences we have...we ALL got hit by a Bomb Drop of some sort.  We have ALL experienced the devastation of abandonment (even those with an MCLer still at home).  We have ALL suffered from this crap.

I can't understand the inability to have empathy for another LBS.  Heck, I sometimes see the LBS here having more empathy for MLCers than for other LBS.  I just don't get this.

As far as I am concerned - if the LBS is able to come out the other end of this....and live some semblance of a life....then he/she is STRONG.  If you can accept, let go, and move forward and create a life for yourself (without your MLCer), you are STRONG.  If you are able to navigate through reconciliation - you are STRONG. 

Is there some type of competition on which is more difficult?  Or which makes you STRONGER?

I believe in MLC....I have seen it.  It truly exists.  But, I also agree with "So what?"  My Ex had some issues that made him unable to cope with life, as it was....so he went into crisis, ran away, and spends his time chasing the elusive butterfly.  "So what?"  His choice. Not mine.  Nothing can be done...nothing to be done.  Maybe someday he'll catch the butterfly?  Maybe he won't.  If he learns nothing...that is on him.

Divorced - yes.  Bitter - sometimes.  Empathetic toward other LBS - most of the time, if not always.

JMHO,

L

I agree with all you wrote EXCEPT that you are a bitter divorce moderator - TOTALLY DISAGREE with that statement.

You are divorced and you are a moderator but NOT bitter. NOPE!

[heroIam]

Lets us all be reminded......



“You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”

[limitless]

As Old Pilot has moved this discussion - so that we don't hijack another LBS' thread....I have added my comments to this thread.

BUT what I will say, (as someone who has been through hundreds of stories and archived information on here)..., is when you go back a few years between 2010 - 2012 there was a lot more reconciliations on here than there are now and it appears to me that no contact was hardly mentioned then.
It seems the advice was more about coming to terms with what has happened, mirroring the MLC'ers communication, getting stronger and then once you were ready GAL....

There were more reconciliations on here between 2010 - 2012 than now?  Really?  I have been on this site since October of 2010.  In the early days, I read every thread.  I knew just about every member's "story" and kept up on the status of all.  In those days, there were fewer of us on this site.

In those days, we didn't have specials colored thread titles to identify those who were "reconnecting" or "reconciled."  I have personally met many of the most active posters on this forum.  Most are not reconciled.  Most are not reconnecting. 

After reading so many of these stories - I am a firm believer that an LBS could do "everything right" and not ever have a reconciliation.  On the other hand, an LBS could do "everything wrong" and reconcile.  I think with all the advice doled out in on how an LBS "should" respond (not react) to the MLCer - some of us come to believe that we can have an impact on their MLCers crisis.  I think we sometimes we forget that very little of this is about us. 

Recovery from MLC is, in my humble opinion, up to the MLCer.  We can do the best we can NOT to be the scorned woman, NOT to feed into the drama, and NOT to firmly slam the door.  A lighthouse merely shines a light.  That's it.  It's up to the captain of the ship to navigate his way.

The live as if he isn't coming back was never mentioned (as far as I can see) until 2012 onwards....

I assure you that "live as if he isn't coming back" was more than mentioned in the old days.  I know, as this is something I didn't want to do.  I couldn't imagine living without my spouse and I didn't want to read that I was to live as if......

From your post, I am inferring that you may believe that the site was "better" when LBS wrote only about Standing.....not being "done."  By "better" I mean - more reconnections, more reconciliations. 

In the old days, I read the articles like I was reading a "how to" book on getting my husband back. 

I totally skipped all the articles about "mirror work" and "finding joy" for myself.  Everything, at that time, was about getting back what I'd lost. 

I didn't want to hear that my marriage was over (it was) or to live like he was never coming back (he certainly hasn't - almost 6 years later).

I would say that TIME changes pretty much everything.  As TIME has gone by - I found that I needed to find joy in my life.  I needed to make the tough decisions for ME.  I needed to live as if he wasn't coming back.  To do anything else (for me) was to NOT live.  I found that not moving forward...kept me STUCK.

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade.  Some of you will reconnect...some may even reconcile.  I hope that you do.  But, for many of us....that just isn't going to happen.  I truly have just this life.  I cannot allow another person's crisis to keep me from living it.

Is the door slightly ajar?  I would be less than truthful if I said that it wasn't.  That being said...I still need to live my life. 

L

[stayed]

What an excellent posting limitless! I seem to be a bit of a lightening rod to many of the STANDERS at all cost, but like limitless when I read 1troubles "comments" about there being MORE reconnection/reconcilations in the early days of this forum, I do went "what??"!  Sorry, but that is absolutely not true.  In fact, one of the people whom I thought was reconciled because she gave out advice as a RECONCILED person, turned out she wasn't. 

Many talk about the old days when HeartsBlessing was a moderator, the only moderator actually, other then RCR, was here.  For the record, LIVE LIKE THEY ARE NEVER GOING TO RETURN, was HER main mantra!  That was daily advice that she dispensed.  HB encouraged us to work on OURSELVES, to do mirror work, to restore ourselves in every way, mentally, emotionally and physically.  Much of the advice we dispense today comes directly from her "teachings". 

HB was a tough love advocate.  She believed that the MLCer had to redeem him/herself, without true remorse and redemption, there could be no true reconciliation.  That we did not need to be CRUEL/UNKIND but we had to be firm and stand strong in what we needed to see and have from our returner, in order to rebuild a new marriage.  She repeated daily, that the OLD marriage was dead, whatever you had from this day forward was BRAND NEW

[Thunder]

Personally I don't see ANY bitter Moderators on this site.
Where is that coming from?

I see them jump on newbies threads and give them good advice and support and keep supporting the older LBS's.  They give a lot of their time and I find them all helpful.

I hope I am.   

I'm not an advocate of NC, but in rare situations that may be my advice.  When I think back I don't think anyone ever recommended I go NC.
I never went NC with my X.  I had no reason to.  My situation didn't call for it.
In an abusive relationships it's the only way to go...and even then if you do want to reconcile down the road there has to be SOME communication.

Just my 2 cents.   

[1trouble]

Ok

I am not getting into another discussion on this and I am not having a go at anyone.......I went through all the threads I found a larger number of reconciled people, I will come back at some point and list them..

I am not having a go at moderators or anyone for that matter I was just stating what I had found and what I had seen and read.
I am not reconciled I am heading for divorce so I am not even standing on my soap box and saying I know best but here we go again.....
So apart from coming back here and putting up the names which I WILL DO
I am not taking part in this sort of stuff

[CallanG]

I thought I would add a comment - as I am (most likely) one of the divorced, bitter moderators.

Sigh.

I was married for 30 years before all this crap happened.  My Ex filed for divorce a year after running away from home...and never made any effort to finalize it.  Three years after he left, I finalized it myself.  At the time, I felt it was what I needed to do to protect myself financially (my ex is a spender).  I still feel the same.

That being said....now almost 3 years divorced....almost 6 years since BD - I have been NC with my Ex since the divorce was final.  I say that I am NC...but, actually, I just allow my Ex to "control" our contact....he never contacts....and I don't reach out.  We are divorced...it is done.  We are NC.

There are some things to be said about finalizing the divorce that you never wanted.....different words and feelings come to mind.  Sadness, anger, defeat, emptiness, apathy, empowerment, hope, utter and complete devastation.....

I would say that there is no joy in divorce.  There is no happiness in divorce.  I did feel a sense of relief.  Relief that I no longer chose to allow myself to live in the fear that someday - the other shoe would drop.  He would divorce me.  I'd be forced to leave my home. 

I no longer fear the future.  The future is here....and it is what it is. 

Now, almost 6 years later - I would appear to be Standing.  There is no new person in my life, nor has there been one this entire time.

Yet....I am pretty much done.  (Which is not quite totally done...but done, nonetheless).

Air has decided to get divorced.  That is HER choice.  If she is NC...that is HER choice.  I can't understand the desire or need to judge her. 

I sometimes feel that the Standing LBS here (some of them?) have so much internal hurt/anger/sadness/frustration that they end of picking on...or attacking other LBS.  This is something that I cannot understand.  Whatever differences we have...we ALL got hit by a Bomb Drop of some sort.  We have ALL experienced the devastation of abandonment (even those with an MCLer still at home).  We have ALL suffered from this crap.

I can't understand the inability to have empathy for another LBS.  Heck, I sometimes see the LBS here having more empathy for MLCers than for other LBS.  I just don't get this.

As far as I am concerned - if the LBS is able to come out the other end of this....and live some semblance of a life....then he/she is STRONG.  If you can accept, let go, and move forward and create a life for yourself (without your MLCer), you are STRONG.  If you are able to navigate through reconciliation - you are STRONG. 

Is there some type of competition on which is more difficult?  Or which makes you STRONGER?

I believe in MLC....I have seen it.  It truly exists.  But, I also agree with "So what?"  My Ex had some issues that made him unable to cope with life, as it was....so he went into crisis, ran away, and spends his time chasing the elusive butterfly.  "So what?"  His choice. Not mine.  Nothing can be done...nothing to be done.  Maybe someday he'll catch the butterfly?  Maybe he won't.  If he learns nothing...that is on him.

Divorced - yes.  Bitter - sometimes.  Empathetic toward other LBS - most of the time, if not always.

JMHO,

L

I agree with all you wrote EXCEPT that you are a bitter divorce moderator - TOTALLY DISAGREE with that statement.

You are divorced and you are a moderator but NOT bitter. NOPE!

The phrase about bitter divorced people has always kind of confused me , I see plenty of people who are bitter but not all or them are divorced !! . In fact some of my married friends are more bitter than my divorced friends will ever be.

I have always felt that bitterness has nothing to do with marital status , age or sex it has to do with the way you handle things in your life . My Father constantly blames others for the problems in his life and refuses to look at himself that has led to his bitterness not him being divorced or married .

Callan 

[patience.of.a.saint]

Can we just STOP? Please!

Before I say anything further, I would like to say this to Airmid: I had no idea posting what I did on your thread would end up being the equivalent of throwing gas on a fire. I feel bad that it took the turns that it did, especially if you don't feel well.

To everyone here, I would like to say PLEASE read what I am saying before you get your panties in a bunch and fly off a post to make this worse!

I read through Airmid's thread again today, because quite frankly, I am still a little stunned as to what exactly I said that caused such a heated reaction and one question I found that I had not seen is "where did this come from?" So that is what I would like to tell you in this post, with the hope that everyone here can actually read it and THINK ABOUT IT before you reply. We say to reply and not react to our mlcers. Please give this the same consideration, with a reply and not a reaction.

Here goes nothin':

Where did this come from? First, I had been reading along on Airmid's thread. She posted and Onward made a reply showing concern and Airmid posted a laundry list of negative reasons and ideas all completely expanded from what Onward had said. Her thread, she can say what she wants, for sure.

My frustration with this is that there has been this barrage of negativity here. This board was not like this when I got here or I'd have left. I DID that in December and for two months I never looked at a single thread.

I read Airmid's post of all these negative things about all of that and thought to myself that this is exactly what this board has come to, all summed up in that post and one other post. All negative. Not saying Airmid doesn't have the right to feel negative. That is SO not it at all. Please read that again. This is not about Airmid being negative, it is about the BOARD being negative.

The general vibe on this board is negative. It's been discussed before so I know I am not saying something from out in left field here. Take two months off the board and come back and you will see it, if you don't see it now.

Airmid posts a lot to newbies, which is something I find hard to do and so she has a following that I do not. When I saw such a negative list of points made by someone with such a following, that made me want to show them that you CAN put a positive spin on this. I won't say "if you want to" because I am aware that would imply that Airmid does not want to be positive. What I "heard" was someone who has given up hope. I made points to show there CAN be hope, there CAN be positive found in this.

There is a group, and yes I am saying that. There is a group here that encourages this negative way of thinking and to me, it appears that Airmid has been influence by this group.

Now switching to my questions about strength. Completely taken the wrong way, by the way. Yes, if you skim and don't read and think about it, I will say they sound harsh. I did not mean them to sound harsh, but like others here, I don't sugar coat if I want to get my point across. When I asked those questions. It was more my concern that Airmid had been backed into a corner and thought this was her only answer, her ticket to freedom, peace and tranquility. I DID want her to think about whether or not she was strong enough to be making this decision. I was not being mean or filled with hatred, as some of you think. I honestly wanted her to think about whether or not she is as strong as she appears to be to others. Why? Because what if a year from now she is much stronger and she then has doubts about whether or not she has done the right thing?

Sure, it's one of those "what if" questions, but having "been there, done that" myself, I wanted to use my experience to help her think about whether or not this is really what she wants. Her threads say so much about how she thought they had a good life. Negative feeds on negative and now she sees it wasn't a good life?

Yes, obviously we all have to evaluate for ourselves whether or not we had the life we thought, but that is also why I asked those questions. I had a fresh set of eyes on reading her thread. The rest of her supporters have been encouraging, but are they willing to question her or are they just wanting to see her keep moving? Certainly, she is STRONGER, and I maybe should have pointed that out before my questions, but I really just wanted to say "hey, are you sure you're up to this?" That was the intent behind the questions, a concern that the negative aspect of this board had taken over her thoughts and was she really strong enough to decide anything right now?

Maybe she feels that she is and that's great. Let her decide that for herself though, before the rest of you fly off the handle thinking that I have attacked her. Maybe you are too close to the situation to feel right in asking pointed questions. I don't know. I just know that I read her posts and wanted to give her a different point of view before it was too late. Perhaps I am to late to the party, but I do know that at the times when I have been ready to give up, someone has come along and said something to me that made me think about it and I am still standing. That is what this board was for, at least I thought so...to encourage standing. Not to water it down with the idea that you are standing for yourself, but to actually stand for your marriage or your relationship. Has ANYONE given her that thought at all recently? Or are there so many here now that encourage doing just what you need to do for yourself and NOT for your marriage?

READ. Educate yourself on all of it. Learn about everything you can possibly know so that you can make an informed decision on your own, with support as needed. See if there is a way to find compassion for your spouse. I see people blasted left and right about why the spouse should get any compassion when they did what they did. Geeeze people...look at yourselves! This site used to be about that! The people that pm me all want that back, but they fear saying it. Seriously. There are wonderful people with compassion for everyone, including spouses and they are afraid to say that here! On a message board linked to a site called LOVE ANYWAY.

[CallanG]

It is sad if there are people who feel afraid to show compassion to their MLCer in their posts. I know there may be people who will question people who feel afraid to post something and will say they have never felt afraid to post anything but we are all different and we are all allowed to have different feelings . I have said it before and I will say it again we may not understand other peoples feelings but they are their feelings .

I am not afraid to show compassion to my H in my posts but that is just me , I am well aware that there are others who would not feel the same . One thing that I have learned from this whole journey is that me not understanding someones feelings should not invalidate them . I am not saying I always manage this but I do try really hard .

After a long spell on indifference from my H our last few encounters have be argumentative but the good things is that we have both been trying to validate how the other feels , it does not always work but I can see that in the past I may not have validated how he felt and he did the same to me . This is a tiny step for us to be trying to hear each other after so much hurt and pain .

I can only describe the last couple of years as being too noisy to make sense of some of the things he says but now it seems clearer and I see different meanings in what he says . I don't mean that I see " yayyy H is coming home " I mean I see some effort from him to make amends and where as in the past I was not ready to hear those words now I am . I hope that makes some sense .

Callan