[Ready2Transform]

And I NO longer believe HS is actually supportive of people like me who are living their lives well, not initiating a divorce, and maintaining hope that it is possible, no matter how unlikely, that their spouse will return.

Onward, know that I am not being facetious at all when I say this.

You are a long-term stander at this point, you are very concretely clear in where you are because of MLC, and what your beliefs about MLC are. You clearly don't need a blog post or guru to reinforce those beliefs - you ARE the guru of your own life now.

Perhaps the fact that you have strong opinions, that you communicate with finesse and clarity, is a sign that it's time for YOU to be the representative of people in your same mindset. Maybe this is a sign that if you were blogging and sharing your perspective, there would be an audience that could benefit greatly from it. I don't know if RCR is open to the idea of "guest blogging", but if not, I had a lot of interest awhile back when I started a Wordpress blog about this last year (https://iamready2transform.wordpress.com/). I may start that one up again, too. It was cathartic and something I could go a little deeper into my own processing than I could my thread here.

I am not in any way saying that the forum is not here to support you - I actually think it is, but it's calling you to put out there where you would like support (just like you are doing today). The squeaky wheel gets the oil. I'm no longer a mentor or moderator, and sometimes I think this is really no longer a place for me either (over five years in, focusing on other things in life, and not wanting to revisit BD everyday in the newbie posts I read).  But my connections to others and genuine care for their stories have kept me logged in.

RCR chose to broaden the forum to include a lot of different types of situations, which I think include both sides of the spectrum. This IS your place, too. RCR can't please everyone all of the time, but she still has the right to make her site about anything she wants it to be. Controversy isn't always a negative (it rarely is, I think). Ultimately conversations like this take us to a deeper place.

[lawprofessor]

I am sure LP will come along and remind me that I was the first one to say 'just a minute', because I am a 'trouble maker' who RCR has had to "call out" before.

Onward,
If that's how you see yourself, so be it.  I'm not interested in being part of your repeated pattern. 

How does your projecting those statements on to me encourage a reasonable, intelligent, and frank discussion when I have said nothing in this discussion?  How does that serve your needs? 

If you are struggling with hope, only you can remedy that.  No one else is responsible for your feelings.

Lp

[Reallytrying]

The point is not to make anyone do anything. It is to better ensure the LBSs are fully aware so that she or he can make the best decisions for themselves and their children. If, knowing the risks and benefits, you have determined that your best and most secure course of action is not to have a formal agreement, that is by all means your decision to make. The concern is those LBSs who don't fully know or consider their whole picture in its entirety until it's too late. 

Well put Phoenix.

Knowledge is power and we should always be aware of all of the options - especially the ones that we don't really want.

No argument from me here. I am all for information. I am simply against making blanket recommendations about how people should behave.  No one solution will work for everyone. Especially for someone in emotional crisis we need to be careful not to give advice as though it is the one true way to handle things.

I would like to say - though I know better at this point but if I am being instructed to not offer an opinion until there is a "breakthrough in my situation" dare I say that if applied to everyone that would render the forum largely silent.

[Onward]

R2T, that is very kind of you to say. Particularly given the example you yourself set.

Unfortunately, as most long term standers can attest, our stories get a little boring, and don't feed the drama machine that is necessary for any publishing enterprise.

"Today I found ways to continue to live in peace" is too long for a bumper sticker, and much too short for a blog!   

LP, I have zero struggles with hope.
Where I sometimes struggle is with giving up.
People talk about FOO issues, but rarely is FOO framed as benefits. One of my FOO issues is
I am fully accountable for my own life.
And I am not a quitter.

I am not projecting, I am quoting. You *are* part of a repeated pattern.
You have said something in this discussion. You asked me to clarify something at the beginning of the thread.
Which was immediately followed by a post from RCR.

RCR rarely posts here. But she does appear when I express my views. Often shortly after you do.
Once is a coincidence.
Twice is a surprise.
A third time is definitely a pattern.
And this exchange is predictable.

It is easy for me to answer your question. I have a strong desire to root for the underdog. I am good at identifying patterns. And I don't like when people are treated unkindly. This particular conversation satisfies a need to point that out, and reaffirm my self-concept as an independent thinker who is neither a coward or easily silenced into compliance.

[xyzcf]

Each time a stander brings up that they do not feel supported on a site whose message was help for those who are against divorce, to help educate the public about MLC, they are singled out and told that they are wrong. I have seen this occur several times and I am seeing it occur again.

I received an email this am from a HS member, a relative newbie, who stated that RCR's post was "not hopeful". I have heard on this thread from others who have stated that this message goes against what they though HS was about.

I can see how the site has changed to meet the demands of those who wish to discuss their dating experiences, to others who wish to condemn their MLCer without acknowledging that there is a pathology going on in this situation...these are not marriage break ups that just were not meant to be.

Perhaps the message has become so watered down now that it is not useful, especially not useful to those of us who are standing for our marriages.

There is a huge division between the two sides.

Standing is not easy. Trusting the process is not easy.

I suspect, and this is my own opinion, that people who still believe in their marriages no longer write or stay on this site because of the change in the message as the site has expanded to try and meet the needs of all people...regardless of whether it goes against the mission statement or what used to be the intent of this site.

There are a few brave people who are willing to write how they feel about what they observe and their opinions are as valuable as the ones who see things differently.

It saddened me this morning, that this HS member who wrote to me, that when she read RCR's blog, she found that it diminished her hope. There are enough situations in the world where we are told that we are ridiculous for holding out any hope for our beloved spouses...too bad this has also become one of them.

[Phoenix]

RCR herself, on this thread, said this topic was controversial on the moderator board.
And posted it anyway.

"Controversial" in that we we had the same kind of discussion as here, exchanging thoughts. Those are the constructive conversations had when varying experiences, philosophies and perspectives are involved. It's how we learn more about each other and and think more deeply about important issues.

To be honest, I have no idea what the point of the blog post was.

This discussion demonstrates the point of the blog--a revisiting, and deeper exploration, of some things that RCR may have thought and said in the beginning that are evolving with time and may need clarifying so that the wellbeing of the LBS remain the priority. I actually don't find the blog being in conflict with RCR's previous statements, but rather a reminder so that people are not forgetting that, while standing, there are also issues of security to be mindful of given the majority of marriages may not reconcile, and protecting oneself in the meantime is a good thing-- even if the majority do reconcile.

The forum and the articles make it very clear there are no guarantees.

You are correct. This is just an extension and clarification of what has already been stated because not everyone takes from the articles what is intended. We see and hear what we want to in difficult times and this has been to the detriment of some LBSs, so I believe RCR is trying to make sure no one is left vulnerable due to messages here that are not clear.

The post wasn't about hope.
The word was used only once, to give you hope Chuck and I reconciled.

The entire forum exists due to hope and nothing in the article changes that or the fact that each marriage here has the same chance as any other marriage to reconcile and each LBS here has the same chance as every other LBS to live a happy fulfilled life reconciled or not.

It wasn't about patience.

Again, the board is nothing if not about patience. This is not a short term journey.

It wasn't about forgiveness.And it sure as heck hasn't encouraged modelling the very thing she said was most important, which is agape love and loving them home. 

Forgiveness, agape/unconditional love are not mutually exclusive to protecting oneself and being informed. Standing, by it's very nature, is an act of love and forgiveness or one would not have a way through to a renewed marriage.

The people who talk about loving their spouses unconditionally, and behaving in ways that love them home, are scoffed at. So they go quiet on the forum, or leave.

I'm sorry this has been your experience, Onward. Regardless of my own path, I have never scoffed at anyone else for theirs. We are all just trying to do the best we can in impossible circumstances, many beyond our control. I genuinely believe we are fundamentally coming from the same place:
Our lives have imploded. Our hearts and families are broken. We want to heal and be secure and have our lives back. We want that for each other. We are all trying to find our way there and to do our best to help others do the same. We are imperfect. We don't have all the answers, but ultimately we want to be healed and happy and want that for each other no matter the individual paths taken.

Knowing bloody well her H left.
He fits the MLC profile to a T.
The reality is there is NO sign he will return.
NO regret for the hurt he caused.
I NO longer can retire when I wanted.
I NO longer even have the financial security I had before I met him 20 years ago.

Same here my friend and it's been 6.5 years without the companionship of a partner. I know much of the the walk that you walk and I respect you in the decisions you make and the reasons that you make them.

And I NO longer believe HS is actually supportive of people like me who are living their lives well, not initiating a divorce, and maintaining hope that it is possible, no matter how unlikely, that their spouse will return.

This has not been my experience of the board, but I validate that each of us has our own experience of it.

Wishing you strength, hope, peace and healing on your journey, Onward.

Phoenix

[Absolutely Fabulous]

The awesome thing about controversy is that it causes people to think. People are too emotional these days, and it clouds judgment. Bearing this in mind, this whole experience is showing us all what we're made of. I'm all for reconciliation, but for some of us, it's just not going to happen. Why?

- Some have outgrown the MLCers, and have no desire to stop their personal progress and growth to help them catch up.
- Some realize that they were not married to someone that they want to continue a relationship with because of the crisis.
- Some will find someone new, and want to explore that as an option.
- Some will help their MLCer get the help they need, and find that they do not like/love the new person.
- Some will marry someone else.
- Some will find the MLCer is just too broken and will create a new relationship with someone else.
- Some will reconcile but feel that friendship is the best option.
- Etc, etc, etc...

Reconciliation is in the hands of the MLCer. Period. You can be there, or not. You can maintain contact, or not. You can divorce, or not. It really is up to them in the end. No amount of anything will change that.

Sometimes support comes from the standpoint of being honest with each other as well. Not just for the MLCer but the LBSer. As an LBSer, we also go through our own crisis.

It's fair to say that there is a fine line between empathy and enabling. In other words encouraging forward moving, and encouraging staying stuck. We can't keep going around in circles with those who don't want to get off the MLC wheel. It's not healthy for the rest of us.

There's only so much hand holding, shoulder to cry on, and listening that we can do before we tell each other to get a hold of ourselves. To get a grip if you will. Just like a smart doctor will eventually take you off of pain meds to help you to heal, so must this group. We have to stop being Vicodin to those who are addicted to the forum as a means of easing the pain.

You have to face the pain, your brain can't handle the pain blocks for too long. That's why the MLCer is now doing what they are doing: cognitively they just can no longer handle the pain and fantasy is now their only means of escape. Their brains have short circuited and the memory lapses ( or fog ) is how they cope. The brain is only supposed to experience trauma once, process it, and move beyond it. They either can't or won't allow this to happen.

Either way, if reconciliation is indeed possible: isn't it wiser to be the healthy one? The one that has healed completely? There are still many broken people on this forum that could use an honest assessment of their situation through the eyes of an unbiased source. Anything that is said here should be taken into the context of how you want to use it.

Just my 2 cents.

[Onward]

Phoenix, you are right, and perception plays a part in any communication.

But I have rarely seen members who are standers (and I almost hate to use the word because it's become a divisive - a sad irony -- and because there really isn't any acknowledged common understanding of what it means) make the kinds of comments against a person who has 'moved on', that those who 'move on' make against 'standers'.

It's baffling.

And instead of hearing the people who say "I find this discouraging", or even acknowledging that it might have that effect, those posters are invalidated with detailed responses for why that wasn't the intent and they shouldn't feel that way.

I know persuasion theory enough to get that there is a tremendous amount of cognitive dissonance on this board.

But the very act of explaining to me why the blog was written, and then saying that wasn't your experience is what I am talking about. It takes effort to hear you, because the very first statement in that blog post was tremendously discouraging.

Even RCR, in her post that specifically referred to me stated that my comments didn't provoke thought, but that they pushed back. Well, they weren't push back. Yet, nobody has answered those questions.

Maybe the moderators forget we don't see what you do. And most moderators are way further in their own journey than the majority of members.

I don't see examples people going through the 'moved on, kick them to the curb, divorce post haste' threads and explaining the intent of patience, forgiveness, agape loving them home to them.

And that leaves a distinct impression regarding which points of view are supported, and which ones are argued with.

And I know this is one of those paradoxes, but as much as appreciate the good wishes for strength, hope peace and healing -- and I really do -- sometimes it reads a little .... patronizing.

Because I know I'm not where I want to be, but I've come a long, long way fron where I was.

But rarely is a longer term stander who still expresses love for their spouse, who is in communication with their spouse, and hasn't found a new relationship, ever actively encouraged in their work, or acknowledged as a success.

Yet, angry people aren't wished healing.
People who are hostile to their spouse aren't wished healing.
People who personalize disagreement aren't wished healing.

And that idea es an impression.

(Edited to add content)

[Phoenix]

Perhaps you are placing me in a certain, "camp," Onward without me knowing where that is and assessing my posts from that place. I'm making no judgements about how or how long people stand. There seems to be something we are seeing about the blog post very differently, but each of us takes in information from our own place of understandind and our own experiences. I suspect there are also conversations/threads I am not involved in that are leading to a sense of defensiveness, frustration or lack of support. I can only say that my intention here is that the LBS (and any children) survive and thrive whatever their personal story and outcome.

Best,
Phoenix
 

[Absolutely Fabulous]

Onward, the use of "moving on" isn't meant to be derogatory. I can only put into context what I meant by it.

- The ability to take care of yourself, while remaining true to who you are.
- You don't have to date anyone to feel that you have moved on, but a companion isn't out of the question ( not all companions have to be of a romantic nature ).
- Getting through the day without dwelling on the MLCer and when they will or won't return.
- Enjoying one's own company and doing new things that mean something to you.
- Exploring a side of yourself that you weren't able to during your marriage if it applies.
- Being able to consider the thought of them never coming back without it causing you to put your life on hold. Etc...

These are my ideas of standing, and the way I choose to do it. I'm on the fence about standing these days, so I have more flexibility in my thinking.

These are some of the ways that you can stand. The perception of standing means different things to different people. This is not to say that you won't be supported in the way you choose to decide to stand. What it does mean, is the way you have chosen to stand is not only your choice, it works for you. As an individual. Any statements made on the forum will and have resonated with people. What resonates for you doesn't resonate for others. And that's okay. What's not okay is when we are all accusatory about the way we perceive and handle things. There are no children on this forum, and therefore we are all entitled to our opinions, the way we give or receive advice, and all other manner of communication here. The use of common sense should guide us, not what others think, feel, or say.