[BBhelp]

This Got DEEP in A Hurry!

My Two Pennies...

As someone who reconciled after 5+ years, I of course disagree with the timing premise.  More importantly for me...I dismiss all timing premises because of the impossible nature of predicting our own behavior let alone the actions of some one twisting up in the sky...

BUT...I don't disagree with most of the post.  The one thing I wish I could pass along better...is that this journey is your own.  I wish I would have learned that earlier.  So much of what she wrote are the keys to unlocking yourself and addressing your own issues that can lead you to a better place no matter what the outcome with your spouse.

I would have always called myself a Stander...it follows my beliefs and how I live my life.  Would I have Stood Forever?..I Have no Idea...I just Stood One Day at a Time.  I Just couldn't let go of my family as long as I felt there was any chance of saving it.  I didn't want to have to share custody, split holidays and introduce my children into whole new families, people and surroundings if I didn't have to.  (You who have had to do those things...it breaks my heart because I know it breaks yours...I pray you will all be blessed for it someday & someway.) So as long as I could keep it together...no matter how difficult or unsatisfying it was...it was worth it to me.  I am in the camp that most MLC'rs will come back...with regret and shame for what they did...the question will always be will you still be there when they are back.  Each of us has to make that decision at some point and weigh out the good and bad for ourselves and our children.   

The key is what you do in that time between BD and that moment.  The time spent working on yourself, growing and healing can be the best days you spend if you put in the work.  I don't think RCR was trying to destroy hope by pushing that agenda...I think what she was trying to say was that the only part of this journey you can control is the one within yourself.  Hope can do a lot of things for us during this period...but for me the real rubber met the road staring at myself and seeing the warts.  Once I saw them, healed them and found a new way of living "Hope" seemed Lighter, Easier and More Real...not so desperate. 

I was here a long time ago...and came back again a short time ago...and I can tell you that I am not the best person to give advice to newbies who come in looking for the secret to saving their marriage.  Because I try and push them quicker than they are ready for.  I will always support those who can Stand...but I will also lead to self help, self awareness and self love as being the way to get peace.  I don't think meaningful reconciliations are possible with out them.  And maybe that is where RCR is with this post as well...and i'm sure she will answer this for herself.

We are all products of our own environments and experiences...I survived MLC by Standing, Healing Myself, and Reconciling with my wife.  Therefore my experience sees those opportunities better than someone who has lived the process differently, divorced, moved on, and re-married.  That makes neither of us right.  To me that is the beauty of having a lot of different perspectives available here because one size does not fit all.  But we can find stories and posters who's experiences are closer to our own and get advice from those who have tread the path you are on.  I think PM's are sometimes great ways to get advice form certain mentors and moderators if you are not getting the support or feedback that you need.  This is the most personal, emotional, and life changing thing that will happen to most of us...the fact that there is a place where we can all find help and hope...is a blessing.

Stay Strong.

BB

[heroIam]

I would like to go on record as being one of the standers that wholeheartedly agree with Onward and 1trouble, as well all of those who are in agreement with her.

[Absolutely Fabulous]

As per usual XYZ you took what I said out of context, and yet again cherry picked what I wrote ( Hence, reading into instead of reading what was written. ). Having said this, I'm not even going to dignify this with a rebuttal.

[Slow Fade]

I would like to go on record as being one of the standers that wholeheartedly agree with Onward and 1trouble, as well all of those who are in agreement with her.

I second this as well.

your line of thinking. I still don't get where you're coming from. You sound like you feel misunderstood and not appreciated

M3G its these words said in written format without the ability to discern tone and body language that can be a problem. Frankly I found them patronizing at first read as well.

[CallingHeart]

I’ve read through all the posts and find most of them very enlightening.

I do remember when first reading the article thinking – wow, there must be something I’m missing.  So I read it again. 
The article starts with a question.  If you Stand, will your MLCer return? 
And then proceeds to immediately state that there are no guarantees for reconciliation and most situations like ours end in divorce rather than in reconciliation.  <Ouch!>  But the next part that states - reconciliation and being successful are not mutually exclusive - hit home (mainly because it took me about 20 minutes to wrap my brain around the logic of mutual exclusiveness as it relates to success and reconciliation )

For me – it doesn’t matter if the odds are incredibly stacked against me. So what if they are? That doesn't change who I am or what is true. I know not everyone plays the lottery, but if you have ever taken a chance on a lottery ticket, did you purchase it because you planned to lose? I rarely play, but when I do it’s not because I plan to lose.   (incidentally – I really would LOVE to win the lottery right now as my husband gets his divorce – wouldn’t that just be the icing on the MLC cake) 
But I digress, the point I’m trying to make is that I can't remember a time when I ever played a sport, or a game, or a taken a chance on something or someone in life only to “not win”.  That characteristic doesn’t exist in me.

I chose to stand for my marriage. (for me that's playing to win). That doesn’t mean I expect or will ever gain reconciliation. What I consider to be a Divine Gift from God (reconciliation) will only happen in God’s perfect will and in His perfect timing.  It's not a 2, 3.5, 7.69, 10.5342, 18 year end-result of MLC.  No matter who it has ever happened to, unfortunately that will not affect my own personal outcome.  I find it interesting that I'm a geek at heart and, like Offroad, I do want the facts .  However I don't seem to have the tendency to lean so much on the reconciled people's journey because I can't trust the facts.  No body else's journey is my journey, so I can maintain the distinction when I read other people's posts.

Regarding reconciliation, I’ve had to let that part of my agenda go.  I actually detached myself from MLC and over the course of the 15 months since BD, I’ve detached also from the expectation of reconciliation. I still chose to stand for my marriage whether or not reconciliation will be my gift.

With regards to MLC.  I’ve never trusted the process.  I don’t even know what the process is for that matter.  Detaching was clear.  The rest never was clear to me.  Was giving and receiving “time” the process?  Is keeping hope and faith alive the process? It seems to me that time was always at the heart of the essence of the MLC “process”.  With time in mind, I agree that there are parts of the article that are extremely discouraging especially the part about the passage of time being detrimental to reconciliation.  I also understand why it's mentioned.  So I get it when Onward points out the inherent contradiction.

So.....
Enter Faith!!   (and let me go ahead and throw Grace and Mercy in to the mix)

Starting with Faith.  Strangely, in the chasm of my experience in a broken marriage, I think I may finally have learned what faith is.  I don’t think I ever really knew until now.  The crisis has given me this very invaluable lesson.   Then adding in Grace and Mercy.  Those are additional gifts. Reading about Grace in the Unconditionals chapter of the articles was an amazing experience early on.  I revisit that chapter often. If I never receive the gift of reconciliation, I have been thrice blessed with regards to Faith, Grace, and Mercy.  The reason I truly believe I’ve been given these gifts is because “I Do” base my stand on a religious platform – (pun intended)   Nothing at all wrong with that approach.

In the end, I think this post isn't one of the better ones relative to a standing approach, but I took the opportunity to glean from it what I thought could help me in the matter at heart.  I sifted out the discouraging parts and held on to the rest.

CallingHeart

[Absolutely Fabulous]

I would like to go on record as being one of the standers that wholeheartedly agree with Onward and 1trouble, as well all of those who are in agreement with her.

I second this as well.

your line of thinking. I still don't get where you're coming from. You sound like you feel misunderstood and not appreciated

M3G its these words said in written format without the ability to discern tone and body language that can be a problem. Frankly I found them patronizing at first read as well.

That would be why I was making the statement. To get clarification. I don't cherry pick, or read into anything without asking directly. I don't go by how I do things to make a statement about someone else. I also don't project and pretend like it's what the other person was thinking or reasoning at the time.

[KeepItTogether]

BB--I always love what you write. 

I Just couldn't let go of my family as long as I felt there was any chance of saving it.  I didn't want to have to share custody, split holidays and introduce my children into whole new families, people and surroundings if I didn't have to.  (You who have had to do those things...it breaks my heart because I know it breaks yours...I pray you will all be blessed for it someday & someway.) So as long as I could keep it together...no matter how difficult or unsatisfying it was...it was worth it to me.  I am in the camp that most MLC'rs will come back...with regret and shame for what they did...the question will always be will you still be there when they are back. 

This is actually something I needed to see today. So thanks!

[Onward]

Onward, Rejoice Marriage Ministries may be more of what you're seeking when it comes to your line of thinking.

M3G, help me understand what it is you perceive about my line of thinking that leads you to this conclusion.

I still don't get where you're coming from.

I agree.

You sound like you feel misunderstood and not appreciated. This just isn't true. Your time and energy aren't wasted. No one's on the forum is wasted. No matter which way you go.

Oh - that is certainly not what I feel, so it would be helpful to understand what I've said or done to draw this conclusion. I don't think I've ever expressed the sense that my time and energy have been wasted. I did say I thought the blog was a good reminder, and that parts of it were discouraging, and I don't know how to write anything any clearer to express why the blog posts were discouraging. Since then, others have acknowledged that there is a discouraging tone to the blog posts much more effectively than I.

Personally, I just don't get your need for external validation on this. But, you feel how you feel. I just don't see why you care so much about how the rest of us feel or think. We're just expressing different views.

I'm not sure how expressing my views is seeking external validation. If that is the case, I guess we all are seeking external validation, including you.

Since I haven't attempted to persuade anyone differently from how they think, and I have not dismissed other views, and I have agreed with people. I am not sure of the basis for the conclusion that I care so much about what others think.
What I have done is express what I think. What I have raised is perception that is shared by others, some of whom have let me know they do not feel safe expressing it because of the fear of being called out personally.

Which, by the way, you have done in the post I am responding to. You have ascribed to me feelings I do not feel, and the suggestion that my way of thinking is a better match for a different board. That doesn't bother me, because your perceptions are you own. But I do know this type of personalized response bothers others.

I have also had people tell me they don't post any more because of this style of personalizing and labelling. And it is that suppression of a full range of voices that troubles me, because I don't think it's healthy for a community to limit diversity.

I don't take anything anyone says on this forum personally.

I perceive this differently, due to posts like the very one I am responding to, as well as a few others in this thread where you have responded in ways that can be perceived as patronizing. Yesterday, you did tell RT to be quiet until she know something for sure, and you just dismissed xyzcf as well in a tone that was rather unkind.

And, I could be wrong and SF would have to clarify, but I didn't interpret that she was referring to my comments in this post:

your line of thinking. I still don't get where you're coming from. You sound like you feel misunderstood and not appreciated

M3G its these words said in written format without the ability to discern tone and body language that can be a problem. Frankly I found them patronizing at first read as well.

[Absolutely Fabulous]

The only thing I think that this thread has really done, is open a discussion that is long over due. It has also shown that there are those on the forum with a fixed mindset that are feeling really threatened by RCR's latest blog post. I'm calling you all out on this one. She's not asking anyone to change their stance or beliefs. She's just readjusting what she's observed. Period.

This seems to be where the whole "camps" mindset is coming in. I've been on the forum for almost 3 years now, and the usual suspects come out to attack anyone that goes against their mindset. Having said this, so that I'm not partially quoted. I think that what RCR wrote is a good thing, and I embrace the thought of her expressing what she thinks. Do I agree with it? That's not the issue. I do welcome her doing things the way she sees fit. I don't agree with everything she does, and haven't been shy about posting that. I do however appreciate her candor.

It's takes a big person to reevaluate what they have previously thought and/or believe. And, a brave one to even question it themselves. I have respect for her for this reason. I don't agree with her on all points, but I respect her enough to give her the benefit of the doubt.

As for external validation on my part. There is none, I'm just involved in a very interesting discussion. No more, no less.

[lawprofessor]

M3G its these words said in written format without the ability to discern tone and body language that can be a problem. Frankly I found them patronizing at first read as well.

Hmm, I didn't get that impression of patronizing at all.  I happen to like Rejoice Marriage Ministries.  Once a week or so some of the ladies there and I discuss the bible verses sent out to readers.  Lots of strength, knowledge, and support of all types there. 

All I can go on is the words written since as noted tone, facial expression, and body language are not available.  So words mean what is written in my mind normally.  I try to remember what R2T said about assume or charge neutral or ask for clarification before assuming.

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My take on the blog as opposed to a question asked for clarification:

BB and Ursa Major hit it directly.

 
The one thing I wish I could pass along better...is that this journey is your own.  I wish I would have learned that earlier.  So much of what she wrote are the keys to unlocking yourself and addressing your own issues that can lead you to a better place no matter what the outcome with your spouse.

The key is what you do in that time between BD and that moment.  The time spent working on yourself, growing and healing can be the best days you spend if you put in the work.  I don't think RCR was trying to destroy hope by pushing that agenda...I think what she was trying to say was that the only part of this journey you can control is the one within yourself.  Hope can do a lot of things for us during this period...but for me the real rubber met the road staring at myself and seeing the warts.  Once I saw them, healed them and found a new way of living "Hope" seemed Lighter, Easier and More Real...not so desperate. 

and

Finally, if the MLC'er comes out of the tunnel, they will have changed and grown - they have NO choice in the matter because to successfully end the Crisis permanently, they have to deal with whatever it was in their past that has prevented them from knowing how to recover from setbacks and disappointments, they have to have learned how to sooth and nurture themselves, they are forced to learn how to patch their leaky bucket and fill it from within rather than expect others to fill it for them.  If the partner that they have left is still in the same mode as they were before, the former MLC'er is not going to be interested in the long term....

Folks, that is exactly what we are talking about here.... By virtue of the MLC, the ways of two people who expected to follow a single path have been been violently separated with one of them disappearing into the tunnel. If we stop right where we are at the time this separation takes place and wait for them to reappear, we miss out on a beautiful trip / life that will have some hills, some valleys, some rain, and some sunshine.  Most importantly though, we will not be ANYWHERE near the point where the MLC'er will finally emerge because they will continue to move.... NO ONE comes out of MLC unchanged... ever... so if we want to have any hope of a true permanent reconciliation, we too need to grow and change.

I don't it is an issue of standing or not standing that is relevant to that message.  In either case the message is to move forward, work on yourself, focus on yourself, heal and grow.  In either case, doing those things has no downside.  It is what's needed, what makes success in about anyway the reader chooses to define it, in either case, as detailed by BB and Ursa Major. 

I don't think Rcr was trying to destroy hope.  She sent the message she intended.  She was offering some hope and support to a large segment of the community here that has not received help and support this directly.  The other articles are full of hope for standers.  But there is also a large percentage of people here who are not standers at the current time but are still dealing with the fallout of MLC in their lives and the lives of their children, as well as rebuilding and redefining themselves.  They appreciate hope and support as well.  Hope for all comes in focusing on their journey rather than that of the MLC person which is the message in the blog for me. 

By giving some hope and support to them, I don't see a zero sum.  Hope is not a commodity of limited quantity where one's gain is another's loss.  Support is not a zero sum either.  I think we should all have hope in ourselves, our choices, our beliefs, our strength in living through this, our decisions in how to get through this, and our support systems which includes our faith and spirituality, to name just a few things.  HS is large enough and has enough love to offer hope and support to both standers and those not standing I should hope. 

Rcr wrote from her heart and her life experiences and observations, and expressed her opinion on her forum reaching out to a group of people largely not focused on before in her writings.  They were just as worthy of her words of hope and support as other people here I would think. 

Lp