[Phoenix]

Amen, Stayed!
Phoenix

[lawprofessor]

ABSOLUTELY AMEN!!

J remembers clearly what he did and why.  He just doesn't like talking about it anymore.  He says he was a selfish ba$tard, and didn't care at the time he was hurting others.  It was all about him.  He hates the idea of amnesia though and says that's just another part of denial and excuses from a punk who isn't man enough to own what he did and is hiding still from growth and healing. 

He also hates the idea that this is something like a disease.  He says that is an easy excuse, an excuse for nasty behavior by a child.  He said he made choices, choices to fall on the ow with his pants down, choices to run, and choices to live like he was the only one that had any value in the whole world.  Owning that is his responsibility.  He also said it was his responsibility to go to the doctor and have his head examined when he knew he wasn't thinking right.  He chose not to and owns that as well.  He realizes he has depression and knows when his pills aren't quite right so he takes responsibility for seeing the doc at those times. 

The other day he was filling out some paperwork.  I asked what he was doing.  He said he was filling out his interview form for a new job.  I said I didn't know he was applying.

He replied, "I'm not happy with my job so its my responsibility to change that.  I can either look for a new job or suck it up and be a martyr.  I'm no martyr.  I'm in charge of my own happiness."

OK go big boy!
Lp

[stayed]

Wow Law Professor, he's really is coming out of the crisis.  He is lucky to have you to give him some directions now and then.  It's a rather scary, lonely road I bet.

Hugs and well done J... I am really starting to like him... he sounds like my h.  My h owns every single bit of this.  He admits that he wasn't happy but it wasn't my job to make him happy.  Instead he took his unhappiness out on me.  He is very grateful that the kids and I have given him the chance to "redeem" himself.  He is taking full advantage of the opportunity. 

Hugs Stayed

[calamity]

I honestly believe that MLC is a depression of one sort or another.  I truly believe that.  I do NOT believe that they have AMNESIA once it is over.  I think people being people, will do anything to hide their wrong doings.  They will do anything to not feel badly about themselves.  The problem is, BETRAYAL is a particularly heinous crime.  It's not something that sends a person to jail generally, but nobody likes to be known as a lying, cheating, disloyal abandoner

.

I think it is a tenacious depression.  And of course at some point, IF the couple reconciles, there is going to be accountability.  However, before the mlcer is through the crisis I think it is futile to even think about responsibility.  Except for the HS members who are reconciling, most of us are nowhere near communicating in any real way with our spouses.  That doesn't mean the lbs is a doormat or that the mlcer won't remember what the lbs said.  A few years later.

[BBhelp]

In my opinion, the returned partner has to feel real REMORSE!  In my experience, I have not seen a single MLCer who returned with true, blue remorse.  Most returned with a great deal of sincere guilt and shame, but that is not the same thing as remorse, as we all know.  Unless they reach remorse, as I said earlier guilt and shame, end up becoming anger and depression, which helps NOBODY!

As the left behind spouse no more, it is your job to make sure that you truly do forgive them, and that your returned MLCer totally grasps the HORROR of their behavior and how much they must now repent for their actions.  Not only to their LBS but children, family and friends that they disappointed, abandoned and replaced during their crisis.  Certainly, they need to learn about MLC.  They need to understand what happened to them.  Once they do that though, they truly must not HIDE BEHIND it as a very convenient excuse that allows them to downgrade their behavior to a "oops, me bad", sort of moment.  This was far, far worse then that and we all know it.

For me this was the key for me and for her...Because like Stayed for years we were together but not reconciled.  Seeing my wife be crazy, say she was sorry, and accept her actions as the horrible things that they were were reconnecting STEPS toward reconciliation...it was experiencing her True Remorse that lowered my shields enough to reconcile.  As Stayed said...Falling back in Love with my wife at that point was easier than I expected...so was trusting her again...because the truth was out there and fully accepted by you both, and now these new stronger people with so many wonderful memories and shared experiences could leave the mushroom cloud behind.

Stayed said so much that was spot on with my own life...It is hard work...it is a slow dance where you stop throwing truth darts and just start honestly communicating.  Getting through it can be difficult but you have to put in the effort to lead by healing yourself and give them the time it takes to do the same...it can be worth it. 

V...I think that Stayed answered your question for me as well...just thought I'd add my 2 pennys...

Stay Strong.

BB

[stayed]

It is hard work...it is a slow dance where you stop throwing truth darts and just start honestly communicating.  Getting through it can be difficult but you have to put in the effort to lead by healing yourself and give them the time it takes to do the same...it can be worth it. 

I have also stopped worrying about what I say, if it sounds like I am throwing it back in his face.  Let's be honest, all this stuff happened.  He did this... this is his to deal with.  It's not my job to reassure him although I certainly do tell him, it's in the past and he is doing a great job of making a new future.  Other then that, what can I say?  I have forgiven him, he has to forgive himself.  I will not pander to his feelings, as that honestly doesn't help.  I certainly let him know, that I am proud of how he has come back from this, faced/facing his demons and mostly about how well he has OWNED what he did. 

Still, we do not avoid those horrible years.  We actually call them "the time of our troubles".  Sadly our life is punctuated with before the time of our troubles and after the time of our troubles.  That is our life.  This is now a part of who we are.  We have not only survived it though, we are literally thriving. 

The thing is, whether people reconcile or not, we all can and do survive this and usually far better then we ever expected.  If we are not thriving, we simply didn't do the work that was required to live well.  That means, back to the drawing board. It's never too late to FIX your own personal life.  We all know we can't fix anybody else but we sure as hell can give ourselves our lives back.

We owe it to ourselves, our children if we have any and the world in general... lol perhaps I reached a bit too far there eh?

hugs Stayed

[Ready2Transform]

We owe it to ourselves, our children if we have any and the world in general... lol perhaps I reached a bit too far there eh?

Not at all! In my opinion, if what you just said doesn't restore 'hope' to everyone, then they just don't really want it.

[osb]

I think the one aspect most variable among reconciliation stories is the pacing. When do you "hold their feet to the fire", and when do you let time heal? Do you really have a two week window to get all your questions out, is this a 'speak now or forever hold your peace' part of the marriage? Do they have to show remorse before they get let back in the door, and if they don't exhibit sufficient remorse, is their return all just "rug-sweeping"?

I suspect those who are going / have gone through a reconciliation have time-compressed their memories, so with the blurring of time it feels like our spouses 'got it' right away, yes we held them accountable, yes indeed. I'm guilty of thinking this way, it makes me feel better about myself! But as someone wisely noted downthread, it takes as long for a soul to get out of this mess as it took to get into it. And most MLCers, if they do return, return undercooked and stumble through the rest of their journey at home, cycling, and clearly not in a state of grace and remorse. These timelines don't jive.

There is an organic quality to a return. We will ask the right questions when we're ready to deal with the answers. Our MLCers will answer those questions only when they're ready to deal with the emotional fallout. Can't underestimate the avoidance - they've accumulated guilt like a mountain of $h!te, would you want to start eating that pile of guilt? And yet, eat they must, one mouthful at a time, if they want to reconcile and find peace in themselves. So they start... and then they get emotional indigestion and pause for a while, maybe backpedal... and then they see in us something that they want back desperately enough, that they go back to tackling the mountain.

Ever since my H started honestly facing up to what he did, I've been having nightmares. I used to be a legendary sound sleeper; now almost every night between 4 and 5, I wake with the most awful dreams, all death, mayhem, abandonment, no chance of getting back to sleep. I've concluded that I also have to digest H's mountain; and I also need time to process it. Now I ask questions only when I'm ready to deal with the fallout. The dreams haven't stopped. Accountability? Yes, I think we'll get there. When I'm ready. I think. Ten years from now, I'm sure I'll remember this as having happened over a matter of weeks. Not years.

[Slow Fade]

I suspect those who are going / have gone through a reconciliation have time-compressed their memories, so with the blurring of time it feels like our spouses 'got it' right away, yes we held them accountable, yes indeed. I'm guilty of thinking this way, it makes me feel better about myself! But as someone wisely noted downthread, it takes as long for a soul to get out of this mess as it took to get into it. And most MLCers, if they do return, return undercooked and stumble through the rest of their journey at home, cycling, and clearly not in a state of grace and remorse. These timelines don't jive.

There is an organic quality to a return. We will ask the right questions when we're ready to deal with the answers. Our MLCers will answer those questions only when they're ready to deal with the emotional fallout.

I totally agree OSB. Thank you for writing this. It has been my experience so far as well......

[Trustandlove]

Those sound like wise words, osb.  It seems to be what those that I have known IRL the have reconciled have experiences.