[Anjae]

Here we go again. No, people do not turn into sociopaths or narcissists in midlife. Those are personality disorder and they do not show out of the blue in midlife, they show much early in life and the LBS would had noticed them years before BD.

People do turn into monsters in midlife when in MLC.

The reason is MLC.

You don't seem to undertand that most of our spouses do not have FTD nor is their problem/behaviour because of tiny strokes. And, anyway, how exactly would we get out spouses diagnosed for whatever since they refuse to see a doctor and run away? I think you don't understand MLC and keep trying to tell us our spouses have something much more serious and irreversible. They don't, they are having a MLC.

A small growing tumour growing in the frontal lobe? If that was the cause, most, if not all, of our MLCers would be dead by now.

You don't manage to explain why, since FTD is degenerative and irriversible, most MLCer come out of MLC, therefore their condition reverses, and even those who do not, do not degenerate, they just remain in replay, exactly the same way they were when they entered replay.

Please stop scaring people and telling them to diagnose their spouses for conditions they do not have. Even because it is totally impossible to have a MLCer diagnosed.

bvFTD, HS is for people with a spouse in MLC, not with FTD or other serious, degenerative/deadly neurologic conditions. Please try to undertand that and realise you and the rest of us are not dealing with the same thing.

MLC does exist. But, if you do not believe it does, what are you doing on a site aimed at the spouses of people with MLC?

You do rub me the wrong way with our constant insistence that we are all wrong and our spouses are not having a MLC, but something neuro-degerenative.

I will ask you again, if MCLer are having FTD, a brain tumour of some sort, or any other irriversible and degenerative disease, how come they get back to normal once their crisis is over? Because degenerative does not allow reverse.

Your argument lacks logic on the face of what we know about MLC, be it from personal experience - like others here I've had a MLC, and like the rest of HS members that have had a MLC I do not suffer from FTD a brain tumour or suffered tiny strokes -, be it from the stories of those here that are reconnecting or reconciled with their MLCer that has got back to normal, be it from real life stories we know of.

The one thing you are right about our spouses is that something is wrong with their brain, but not for the reasons who name. It has to do with depression. Depression seriously affects the brain and behaviour. Think about post-partum depression and how crazy some women get, to the point of wanting to kill their children.

Another thing that alters people behaviour in midlife are hormones.

[Absolutely Fabulous]

Keep posting. We all get offended at times, and eventually, we get over it.

There are people on this forum that don't agree, that's why it's called a forum. There are therapists, psychologist and others who work in Neurosciences that will tell you that MLC doesn't exist. And they have the degrees and the research to back up their claim.

The truth is, we don't really know what causes this. Keep posting, they don't speak for all of us.

[Anjae]

Some of us - myself included -  have taken neurosience and genetics courses. We also have threads on neuroscience, where many issues on the subject are discussed.

I am not offended, I just find it irresponsible to keep insisting our spouses have a degenerative disease, because I have knowledge of neuroscience and now that - for now - degenerative diseases are not reversible. The word degenerative is self explanatory, isn't it?

Why do those of you that think MLC may be, or is, a degenerative disease, when asked over and over and over again, cannot explain  MLCers getting back to normal once the crisis is over?

What is so hard to understand in: degenerative diseases are not reversible? People with ddegenerative diseased do not go back to normal. MLCers do.

Yes, there are therapists, psychologist and others who work in neurosciences that will tell you that MLC does not exist. Others call it something else. But all of them will tell you that someone with a degenerative disease does not go back to normal. The degneration just keeps getting worst.

We don't know for certain what causes this, for me, it is extreme stress that leads to depression. But we know MLCer get out of crisis and people with FTD, or Alzeimer's, or any other degenerative brain disease do not.

Absolutely Fabulous, if you also don't believe in MLC, why are you here?

I wonder what people that do not believe in MLC are doing in HS. It would be like not believing in cancer and be on a forum for spouses, relatives and friends of cancer patients. It is illogic.

[Thunder]

Thank you, xyzcf, I agree with you.

I personally believe a midlife crisis is just an identity crisis that just seems to hit some people in their midlife years.  It is not something that is life threatening and it is not a disease. 

Like RCR says it is a type of depression that the MLCer will either deal with and work their way out of or they won't.

We can not fix this for them...or love them out of it.

There is no research done on MLC because there are no studies done with volunteers.  All studies need some volunteers to question, don't they??
No MLCer's think they have a problem...nothing is wrong with them.  So where do they find these volunteers to do a study on??

So who can they study?  The hear say of the left behind spouse who sees there is something terribly wrong with their wife or husband? The families who are destroyed by the actions of these MLCer's?

How do you get any data to back up this crisis?
It's nearly impossible.

If it makes you feel better to label their crisis as some horrific disease that has no curse then good for you.  You have an answer to why they left you and found someone else.

[Not Applicable]

Please tell people who come onto your site to rule out frontotemporal dementia or a slow-growing tumor in the frontal lobe or tiny strokes before delving into childhood issues that didn't seem to interfere with your beautiful marriages of decades before (however; familial ftd would have definitely wreaked havoc in their past).

Hmm, well, you see, when we were first married, my husband actually blamed his father's childhood abuse of him (some of which really can be called torture) for some of his seemingly odd behavior in our marriage at the time. He managed to overcome it with time, and many years, and then 16 years later basically fell off the wagon and got much much worse than he ever was before. This happened when we moved back to his hometown and moved in with his mother. When he and I manage to get some time alone together, he's maybe 80% like he was pre-BD. But when we are around his mother and others, he loses it and becomes a monster. There are environmental factors driving it. If it were bvFTD, there would not be this clear delineation in his behavior from hour to hour depending on who was around. Sorry, but there is every reason for me to believe his awful childhood during which he was never ever happy has contributed to this. And while he may have gotten worse since last year, looking back I can see there were precursors for this throughout our marriage.

[ChrissYAH]

After his wedding this last weekend Im starting to wonder if its MLC or some degenerative disease of the brain.

[Songanddance]

If it makes you feel better to label their crisis as some horrific disease that has no curse then good for you.  You have an answer to why they left you and found someone else.

Exactly - because it stops you from looking inward to see how you can improve or develop.  It also stops you from being prepared to use time as a gift. 

I fully believe in MLC and whilst I accept that FTD is a clinical degenerative disease it is VERY VERY clear that my H is coming out of the tunnel and beginning to reconnect and seek the marriage.  He does not have FTD - and yet he monstered dreadfully, his personality changed out of all recognition, he became the complete antithesis of everything he once held dear - an OW, expensive purchases, neglecting and physically assaulting his son, reducing me to tears on a daily basis etc... 

If he had FTD - I would have seen some degeneration in his bodily and mental functions over the last 4.5 years.  I haven't and I am confident when I can trace the denial phase of his depression back to 2006 and there has been no physical or mental degeneration since then either. That was when the erratic purchases started and the desire to be alone.   

So - how do you explain that BVFTD - if my H does not have FTD and you don't believe in MLC - what does my H have?

What do all the spouses who have come through the tunnel and have reconciled or have a productive relationship with the LBSers even if not married have then?  Please name this.

If you can't name what is happening because you do not believe in MLC then allow those who are new to the forum to make their own conclusions.  By all means bring it to their attention but please do not dismiss MLC out of hand to them simply because you don't believe it. 
This is a forum where all is and should be discussed but I urge you to consider how you welcome new people to this forum. People who are scared and hurting because their world is turned upside down and people whose spouses have just abandoned them ( I am intrigued how you think that these particular spouses will voluntarily go for testing) are on here and they seek support, warmth and a sense of understanding how they are feeling.   
They may well have a spouse who could be a medical case such as FTD or any other but the advice that is the core of this forum on how to deal with such a dramatic change in their lives is still very much relevant and helpful. Telling them in the first response on a forum specifically set up for MLC, that MLC does not exist and that their spouse needs testing for a specific condition is a little scary and upsetting for them.  They have come here because they need help on how to help themselves in their current situation.  They need time and space to absorb all possibilities medical or otherwise not to be scared off. 

Thunder is right - there is no actual scientific data but what there is are over 3000+ stories on this forum alone which have incredibly common strands and elements of their spouses behaviour, words and actions.  3000+cases of FTD - I think not. 3000+ cases of MLC - far more likely.

[Silver]

Thunder is right - there is no actual scientific data but what there is are over 3000 stories on this forum alone which have incredibly common strands and elements of their spouses behaviour, words and actions.  3000 cases of FTD - I think not. 3000 cases of MLC - far more likely.

100% agreed. It would be very possible to use these stories in descriptive research as data - as in many other behavioral science area which lacks possibility for 'hard research' as RCT based research.

One can't define MLC or any other behavioral based phenomena exist or not trough the fact if it is or is not diagnozible by medical research criteria.
We can say it is not at least yet a diagnosable disease, that's all.

What you CAN diagnose if you want to is overt depression in MLC, I could easily say (reading these stories and according to my own) that most of MLCers probably would get rather high points e.g. in BDI which is probably most worldwide spread and accepted screening method for depression.  Same conclusion would come with PHQ screen or some other one...But that's a different story.

This is a problem today: we are so into evidence based medicine (which is mostly good thing) that it has become almost a religion: if something hasn't been researched with hard, quantitative methods, it does not exist. If something HAS been researched, it will become gospel truth and is seen as black and white. I have seen many misunderstandings and wrong medical diagnozes b/c of this in my work career - talking about psychic diseases.

Reading MLC related literature, there is more evidence of it existing than not IMO.

[Mitzpah]

I will not pretend to know all there is to know about FTD, I am not a doctor or a researcher.

I know what I see.

My h. does not have FTD. Even if I suspected, I would not be able to get him to a doctor for testing

He has FOO issues, he has done some pretty bad things to me and his children due to to his inner wounding. I am sure he has a lot of internal turmoil.

For me, this is a severe identity crisis. It is a CRISIS, therefore the extreme behavior we see.

In the almost seven years I have observed this, he has not gotten worse to the point of dysfunction  and I would say that he is beginning to settle down a little. His relationship with the children is good although changed, I think he would probably have a good relationship with me if I accepted the OW

I have said before - my son had a tumor (a large one) in his right frontotemporal lobe diagnosed at the age of 13, it did not cause behavioral alterations. It was removed surgically (most of it) and then treated with chemo and radiation to the whole CNS. My son is sweet tempered, affectionate,  superior intelligence, a little given to depression, maybe... However this is probably because of all that happened to him not so much the tumor itself. Depression could also be a family trait, both of his grandfathers were depressive.

My h. does not have a tumor either. The signs of a brain tumor are different.

[Ready2Transform]

My h. does not have a tumor either. The signs of a brain tumor are different.

But..but...it was on the internet, Mitz! It must be true!! 

Pyroluria or Pyrrole Disorder was my bvFTD. It was several years into researching my xH's condition that another lbs (kikki - I don't think she'd mind if I called her out!) and I found this one. Felt like we hit pay dirt! Short version is that it's a chronic B6 and Zinc deficiency that is believed to possibly be the underlying cause of a slew of serious things in some people, from mood disorders like schizophrenia and bipolar, to personality disorders like narcissistic, histrionic, and borderline, to propensities for blood clots, kidney stones, alcoholism, diverticulitis. ADHD, anxiety, hormone imbalance, and depression are in there too. It had reddening of the skin and shark eyes and all of the usual suspects as traits to look for, and tends to be more prevalent in people of European descent, particularly Irish, and you'll see a lot of family history of these things.

My xH ticked off perfectly! And at the tipping point around 2008/2009 was when we were supplementing with B vitamins less to save money, and he suddenly came down with yet another kidney stone/diverticulitis combo, then the big depression, then the bipolar diagnosis. So it really did seem to fit!

There's a split in the medical community as to whether Pyroluria is a thing. There's research behind it, and some will treat it. Others think it's mumbo jumbo and would rather treat the disorders it causes individually. There are a bunch of Pyroluria gurus who started clinics that will mail you expensive urine tests for your surly teens or affected spouse, and you can easily blame it for all of your life's ills once they get you on a personalized protocol of *their* proprietary supplements and your problems are solved. Facebook is full of groups of panicked people comparing their test results and criticizing each other's protocols.

I took it that the under-acceptance of this disorder was clearly why it was allowing so many misdiagnoses - that if only more people would go straight to their doctors and demand a test, the medical community would have to accept that this was probably the reason most of the western world was losing their minds! My temptation was very much to cram it down the collective HS throat because clearly this is what was wrong with most, if not all, of spouses talked about here. Something so simple as a deficiency gone extreme would be easy to fix with the right tools and support! Yay! I solved MLC!  If you go into some of the biology threads, you can probably pinpoint the era I really did try to get everyone on board.

But the truth is, reading something on the internet and pinning symptoms (I perceive, not experience - this is a huge part of why we're not the best gauges for anything other than our own experiences with this) together does NOT make me a medical professional or anything other than an advocate for "Do what you can." Only my xH knows what he is experiencing, and only a professional he seeks out can surmise what to do with that. An oncologist (who was my xH's primary at the time), a psychiatrist, and a therapist all saw him for a period of months in the thick of this, as well as other medical professionals he went to after he left me. Absolutely none have treated him for Pyroluria, have suspected bvFTD (that I know of) or anything other than the anxiety and bipolar disorders he was diagnosed with. The passion I had for discovering a cause may be more intense, and it certainly gave me a level of control back that I was seeking (as I said on Albatross's thread the other day, there's a hint of the "bargaining stage" of grief in it, in hindsight). But their educated opinions win. Heck, now I'd be more inclined to say he's just a narcissist, and I can see elements of that throughout the rollercoaster ride of our relationship! But that's just because I've exposed myself to a lot of Narc Abuse content in order to heal, so what I expose myself to has an influence. THAT is also something to watch for - even when it's this forum that's dictating some of your thoughts.

So sure, if you can get your spouse to ask their doctor about this, or if your spouse wants your help as an advocate and you are able to get a test approved for this (because a doctor can also shut it down if they choose - they don't have to order it just because you request it), do it to set your mind at ease. But if you're freaking out because people are scaring you more than you're already terrified from the fallout of this stuff, breathe. You STILL didn't cause it (whatever "it" is), and you STILL can't cure it.