[Curiosity]

New thread time… borrowing the title from my next-to-last post in my previous thread.

I just want to say thank you to all in this community. Whether you have provided advice or support, whether you have shared your own story, or whether you have just read along and been a party to my processing, I am so grateful to you all.

This is an ongoing journey… just because W is home, just because we are committed to our marriage, that doesn’t mean the learning and growing and attention to my own individual self stops. If anything, this is the time to prioritize it even more. I have learned a lot in the two years I’ve been on this forum, and I’m a better person because of it; but there’s always room to evolve and grow and be better, as a person and in my relationships.

The path from pink to purple is probably less clear to me than the path from white to pink - maybe we’re already at purple and it’s all about perspective, maybe we still have a long way to go. But I’ll be here, updating (and often, keeping up with your stories).

Previous thread:
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11738.0;all

[MadLuv]

Curiosity- thank you for sharing your journey

The problem comes when you stop seeing yourselves as two individuals and start seeing yourselves as extensions of each other, two incomplete people

I think this is so right. Unintentionally you can lose yourself in the other. Also, as good as it is to love others there is a danger in putting anyone above yourself as that can be the beginning of  losing yourself. We only have control of our life and feelings and anyone can exit left at anytime. Which goes back to if you can’t love yourself you can’t love anyone else. We have to love ourselves first and foremost. That is what I have learned. If we do that anyone that chooses a different path will still hurt, but we have our self love to guide us through.

I look forward to following your jounrey to purple. I have thought ( as stated on one  of your journals earlier) that you should have already been pink, so I am glad to see. Wishing you love and happiness

[Curiosity]

MadLuv, thank you as always for sharing your perspective and your wisdom. I think that on some level, I was looking for a milestone or something to tell me when to switch to pink. A year from when she moved back home? Then that came and went, and I was content to just let things remain as they were. Your post in the prior thread got me thinking about it again. While I do think that the upcoming anniversary of her being recommitted to the marriage is probably more significant than the anniversary of her moving back in, the change wasn’t only about that milestone.

I wish you love and happiness and continued strength. Your journey is inspiring and your words always resonate with me.

[UrsaMajor]

Hi Curiosity,

"Normally," the Mod Team, in consultation with RCR, make recommendations about icon changes to avoid flipping back and forth if it is just a touch & go but I think in your case we already agreed pink was valid for you in your case.

UM

[Curiosity]

Sorry, UM… I misunderstood and thought it had already been approved because it had been discussed near the end of my previous thread.

[sachat3]

Just popping by to say hi and I’m following along

[Curiosity]

Bit of an update and, of course, more processing…

A cousin of W’s is getting married this weekend on the other side of the country. This cousin is someone a fair bit younger than W, but W’s immediate family and his immediate family spent a lot of time together during their childhoods and the families were very close. They drifted for several years later in W’s young adulthood and we have seen them a few times. I don’t know them well, but they are not strangers to me by any means.

So, the wedding was planned but it coincided with some work obligations for W that were going to be difficult to get covered, and initially we weren’t going to go. Then the cousin’s father was diagnosed with advanced cancer - we had known about the cancer when making our initial decision but we didn’t know how aggressive it was. We planned to go visit a month or so after the wedding, when we could spend some time with them. So… when they found out how bad things were, W decided to attend the wedding after all. She decided to go on her own, because she could stay with family (it would be close quarters if we both were visiting) and she found more flight options for a single ticket. I offered to go, but she declined and said it would just be simpler if she went alone. Then, yesterday she was getting ready to go to the airport and got a call that the cousin’s father had taken a turn for the worse and had passed away. We got the news an hour before leaving for the airport.

I of course offered to go, to find a way to get there even if not on the same flight. She was grateful and she said she knew I wanted to be there for her and the family, but that it was unnecessary and would be a huge task to arrange on zero notice. So she’s there, and we are in frequent contact and she seems to be holding up fine under the circumstances. But it’s an awful situation for everyone involved.

As for me… I’m grieving because even though I didn’t know him well, he was a wonderful and well-loved person whose family is devastated. And I also feel like I don’t know where I fit in… is my W saying I don’t need to be there because she truly needs to grieve among people who knew him well, or does she wish I were there and she just didn’t admit that to me? Should I have assumed that I needed to be there for her, or should I have done what I did; which was to sincerely offer to be there but respect her choice on the matter? I don’t want to be a fixer or overstep if there are things she needs to do on her own, but I want to be here and offer my love and support.

This is the kind of thing that before BD I wouldn’t have questioned. Even when she decided to go to the wedding, I doubt she would have made the decision to go on her own. She probably would have told me that we needed to be there and we would have made it work. But it feels like we are both still feeling out the level of independence versus interdependence that makes sense for us… and I guess this is a bit part of the work of reconnecting. I want to trust her and be able to lean on her if I need to, and I am starting to do that in small ways - but always with a bit of awareness that you can never really lean on anyone completely.

So… sorry that this post is a bit of a downer. I am processing the relationship stuff, but really what’s at the forefront of my thoughts and emotions is just the sense of grief and sadness for what my family (my W’s family, that is) has lost.

[MadLuv]

Curiosity- I m so sorry for the families loss. I think W sincerely appreciated your offer and is genuine that she is ok with you not being there, not because she doesn’t want your support, but because this was the arrangement and sometimes it is just  easier to be around the ones most closely  affected without worrying about anyone else's feelings  but your own.

[Standing Strong]

You did the right thing C 

The most important thing you could do is be willing to be there for her, and for her to know that's the case.
What she does after that is her decision, for whatever reason she has. Don't matter what that is. You did your part and were genuine.
I also wouldn't ready into anything about what it means or whatever..... she's recovering and healing.... super overloaded.
It sounds like she understood and appreciated. You did it, you won. 

-SS

[Curiosity]

Thanks to you both, for the condolences and the reassurance. And I think you’re right… she has been in frequent contact, and the family has sent their love. It has been strange for her because her immediate family has all been acting so normal. But the wedding is this evening and the funeral is tomorrow morning, so I’m sure it will all be pretty intense.

When W got the call, she was so upset and tearful. At some point in the conversation, her mom basically said to snap out of it because crying isn’t going to change anything. And it struck me how differently we all cope with loss.

After I posted, I initially felt selfish for making this family’s tragedy about me in any way, but that wasn’t my intent. It just struck me that I very much still feel like we are redefining our roles as spouses, but it also seems like W is figuring out herself as an individual, too… how much does she want to lean on me and how much does she need to know she can do for herself. And to some degree I guess we all learn more about ourselves throughout our lives. But I feel like in MLC and its aftermath, it’s even more important for them to learn these things about themselves.

[MadLuv]

You know I had no idea that I had become some what co dependent in my marriage to then find my independence again. I can only imagine that even a healthy reconnection and rebuilding can have moments of dependence in a need for reassurance at times. If that makes any sense at all!! I’m glad she has been checking in and I cant imagine a death and a wedding and how you would handle the flux of emotions.

[HeavenlyFocus]

After I posted, I initially felt selfish for making this family’s tragedy about me in any way, but that wasn’t my intent. It just struck me that I very much still feel like we are redefining our roles as spouses, but it also seems like W is figuring out herself as an individual, too… how much does she want to lean on me and how much does she need to know she can do for herself. And to some degree I guess we all learn more about ourselves throughout our lives. But I feel like in MLC and its aftermath, it’s even more important for them to learn these things about themselves.

Hi Curiosity,

When I read your initial post, I thought your W seemed to be making a rather healthy decision.   I think when we are a fixer, it is tough to give up on that part co-dependent relationship.   Glad that you were able to be there for you W and yet it was ok that she could face this on her own.   Progress occurs when we face new challenges and handle them differently than we did in the past.   I am learning too to grow and change my own co-dependent behaviors although it takes time for me to process and learn.

HF

[Curiosity]

We are definitely still at a place where we are learning about ourselves as individuals (or at least about the changes that have occurred in us because of her crisis and my journey that arose from it). And you are both absolutely right that codependency and fixer tendencies seem to be almost hard wired - they are really tough to overcome. I think it’s interesting how we struggle to find that healthy balance… in early LBS life, many of us worry about detaching because we are worried that we will become too detached and will fall out of love with our spouses. I think that similarly, I worry sometimes that if I don’t always keep the trains running on time, if I’m not always her rock, if I’m not always the fixer, that maybe it means I’m too detached and independent, and that I’m not fostering the healthy amount of interdependence that a relationship should have.

Ultimately, I know that I think about this too much - I need to just live my life and not micromanage my marriage. And truly, most of the time, I do. I feel like 90% of the time, I strike that balance pretty well. But when something unexpected happens, I revert back to that post-BD place where I need to emotionally turn inward and instead just analyze every detail. And in the end… this is a difficult situation for those who loved the man who passed away; it’s not a marriage test, or anything like that - even though my posts here focused on the marriage and me and W, I do have a better perspective on the reality of the situation.

[JohnnyBravo]

So… sorry that this post is a bit of a downer.

Unlike most of our spouses, we're all here for each other "for better or for worse," as they say...

[Algo]

Hey Curiosity,

Just wanted to tell you that I've read some of your posts and I feel what you've been through, I feel my case is very similar to yours, but I'm only at BD+6 months, and I feel that reading your story helps me to cope with my own uncertainties and questions, and focus in the detachment and personal healing is the best way forward, thanks for being an inspiration to my own journey.

Best regards, Algo

[Curiosity]

Algo, thanks for the comment and I am glad to hear that my story has been helpful to you. I know that many of the stories here were almost a lifeline for me when I was struggling to detach, striving to understand what was happening to the life I thought I had, and navigating the process of grieving. Those things might look a little (okay, sometimes a lot) different in each of our stories, but the broad themes are similar.

I benefited from stories of at-home MLCers and vanishers, reconciliation stories and stories where the LBS moved on; I benefited from stories where the LBS moved forward into detachment quickly and from stories where the LBS cycled almost as much as the MLCer (that’s the camp I fell into). And it helped me to read the stories of people whose BD happened near mine as well as those who are a decade or more into their journeys. And I still benefit today.

Not much has changed in my world. W and I are navigating married life together. We are going away for a vacation next month, we have hosted friends who were visiting the area, we’re just… living. We don’t delve into the details of her crisis much in our conversations, but we both appreciate the importance of being truly open and honest, not giving the small talk answer of “I’m fine” when asked how we are. It isn’t idyllic or brand new or anything like that - W struggles with anxiety and depression, and sometimes gets burned out with work, and I struggle with finding the balance between being engaged and showing empathy without trying to jump in and fix things for her when she needs to figure them out for herself. But most days, we are just living our lives, each of us a little more open about how grateful we are to be sharing this journey. And I’m sure that isn’t the end of the story, and I’m sure that even if the reconciliation is permanent, I will have some ups and downs and periods of introspection. But coming here, journaling, reading other people’s experiences with life beyond MLC… that goes a long way toward feeling connected and feeling the strength that comes from having a community.

[Algo]

Dear Curiosity,

Thanks for sharing it, I've read somewhere that when we cross paths with someone who is dealing with the same problems, the world seems like a safe port, even if it's for a brief moment. let's keep fighting for our life, even if it's not the same life we had before it all started :-) Best regards, Algo

[Curiosity]

So, things are still going well in the land of reconnection. Slowly but surely, affection and intimacy are making their way back into our life. We are once again able to seek out each other for comfort and security if we are feeling anxious or upset. I admit that she is further down that path of trust than I am, which I think makes sense given that she was the one who left. But we are in a really good place.

I am updating in part to acknowledge that the people who had concerns about my friendship with A, or who at least thought it was a bit unfathomable, were probably right all along. I won’t go into details - it’s a long story and probably unnecessary.  Basically, A needed to come over here for something related to her animal rescue. She’d been a bit distant recently so I gave her space to do what she needed to do. Soon after, I reached out to check in and see if she was okay. She immediately lashed out at me for being rude and dismissive, ignoring her or treating her “like the hired help” when she was here. I was stunned and explained myself, and I apologized sincerely for making her feel ignored. Even though it hadn’t been my intent, she clearly felt that way and I regret that. She reiterated that she couldn’t possibly see how my rudeness had been unintentional, and went on to say that clearly W has disdain for A and wanted me to show A the same disrespect, and I had, and that was all she needed to know.

So, I left it there. I could be angry that she accused me of lying to her and of being insincere with my apology. At best, she is saying that I am a puppet being manipulated by W. At worst, she is essentially calling me a liar and manipulator. It is clear that not only has she not forgiven W, but she hasn’t even accepted that W was in a tumultuous place herself when everything happened. But I’m not angry… or at least not in any lasting way. I’m sad for her, because she has had so much abuse and trauma in her life that she lashes out casts a wide net of “people who cannot be trusted.” I believe she has a good heart and I hope she is able to find some peace and emotional security.

I was thinking and talking through this whole thing, and I think that when this friendship started, I was just beginning to reconnect with W. I had gotten a bit of an apology from W, but little in the way of reassurance that she understood what had happened to make her abandon our marriage. I felt like A understood in a way that W couldn’t, and that maybe A and I could help each other process the events and support each other in our healing. I remember the first time I had an in person, in depth discussion with A. When I came home after, W was convinced I was going to be angry with her or questioning my decision to work on our marriage. And I mean, maybe I did need to vent a little bit back then because we weren’t really talking about our path forward so I wasn’t sure where she was (and I was still in the mindset of “don’t start R talks”). But I quickly learned that even though there were similarities in the experiences that A and I had with respect to the crisis, our experiences with W overall were vastly different. And our own histories were vastly different. And as W and I reconnected, it became clear that discussing my marriage with A would have been an obstacle to reconnection. And luckily, venting to A is not something I have done at all since the first several weeks of reconnection, and even then it was very little.

The thing is, I thought our friendship had moved beyond that history, and that we had each healed enough to move forward. I knew A had not fully forgiven W, but I thought she had moved toward acceptance and peace around what had happened between them. And maybe she tried to heal and couldn’t get there, or maybe she only wanted to talk to me as long as I could validate her anger at W. I don’t know the truth of it and I probably never will. And I’m not going to dwell on it - I acted in good faith, it was received as something negative. I explained myself and apologized sincerely, and was not believed. That is entirely her choice, and I will move forward knowing that I did my best.

So, for not getting into much detail, that still turned out to be a long story. It’s been good for me to process all of it, though, and it helps to understand how I have still been healing even after I thought I was in a pretty healthy place.

[MadLuv]

Glad to hear things are going well!! I was definitely one of the ones questioning the relationship with “A”. I think she proved she has no place in either of your futures and it is best that you both disconnect and leave that friendship behind. In the end better that relationship be the casualty then the ones you are now building back together. IMHO

[Curiosity]

MadLuv, thanks for responding. I agree with you; I am extremely reluctant to write off the people I care about, and I do recognize that A has significant trauma in her own history that colors her relationships. And honestly, it is hard to see her so volatile that even a friend is not safe from her distrust - even after an explanation and an apology. I genuinely want peace and healing for her, and I don’t want there to be any animosity between us - there is none from me, certainly. But I also prioritize my own well-being, and any reciprocal relationships in my life (marriage, family, or friends) have to include some level of trust, respect, and the genuine belief that the trust and respect are mutual.

I admit that it made me really examine my social skills - how I interpret the words and actions of others, and how I express myself. I know that I have always struggled with this. I wondered for a while about whether I was on the autism spectrum, but in discussing with therapists it seems that my presentation is more like a form of social anxiety. But I think that often, in trying to avoid making people feel uncomfortable, I overthink the way I want to handle the interaction, and perhaps sometimes I do exactly the thing I am trying to avoid. It feels like the right thing to do in the moment, but in retrospect I can see what I might have done differently. Luckily, the overthinking isn’t something I feel the need to do in relationships that are in a solid place. It really just happens when I don’t feel sure of where the relationship stands.

[sachat3]

I am caught up now.
I’m so sorry to hear about your wives cousin! What an awful time.

[Curiosity]

Small update… we are recently back after a much-needed vacation. We did a bit of stargazing, W had a massage, we took some scenic drives, only did minimal hiking because it was still quite warm (and admittedly, I need to regain the good diet and exercise habits that I have let slip). In many ways, it felt like a trip we might have taken 5 years or so into our relationship. I found myself thinking (only a little, not in a perseverating way) about the “weekend getaway” more than 2 ½ years ago, that I thought was a chance to reconnect after life and work had put some distance between us… but which actually turned out to be BD1. Then, I thought of a trip we took after she ended her EA but was still in escape and avoid mode, shortly before she decided to move out of our home. Finally, I thought about the couple of vacations we have taken since she recommitted to our marriage. And what I find interesting (though I suppose not surprising) is how gradual the process of rebuilding trust is… and yet, it keeps rebuilding. Each time, the anxiety I felt around BD fades a bit more, and each time, I feel a little closer to her and a little more sure of us. At the same time, I don’t feel at all like we are backsliding into the unhealthy patterns of codependency. At least, I don’t feel any of that unhealthy attachment from myself. I guess I can’t be completely sure of what is in her mind and heart. But I will say that there are words of love and appreciation, and more importantly, they are backed up by actions. Life isn’t perfect - we have the same stresses as a lot of people out there. But it feels like we’re a team again, and I honestly wasn’t sure I would be able to get there. It’s not the same relationship it was before BD, of course, and we all know that it never is. But it’s a good one, and it’s one that enhances my life without defining my life.

One thing that has truly brought me joy is the reconnection with a person who has been my best friend since high school. We were so alike, we were practically the same person in many ways, and we were incredibly close and shared everything in high school and the early part of college. We went to different universities, but stayed in very close contact despite that. As we were nearing the end of our college years and choosing career paths, we went in different directions and I guess life just started getting in the way. We stopped calling, didn’t know each other’s college friends… she got married and I embarked on a very time-consuming career path. We lost touch for close to 10 years, and then I happened to be thinking of her and I found her email. I took a chance and reached out, not sure how it might be received. I felt responsible for the distance between us because my training made me so unavailable in the prior years. But she was glad to hear from me, and we have been back in touch ever since - more than 15 years now. It was mostly small talk, catching up and a few anecdotes from our lives, and almost always via email. Then, a few texts happened now and then, and an occasional phone call. We live in different parts of the country and almost never see each other in person, which I regret and still want to change. But… over these past few years, I confided in her, first about W and then more generally about my own codependency and efforts to improve my own well-being. Then, I confided in her about things with A - the friendship and the struggles. And in these past couple of years, we are as close as we were in our late teen years. We actually talk to each other about the meaningful things in our minds and hearts. We talk about family dynamics and relationship struggles, and about the good things too. We talk about our paths toward better understanding of ourselves and our relationships. Even when we were distant, I always considered her friendship the most meaningful of my life… but now, it feels like we both truly embrace the intimacy of a true friendship in a way that we certainly didn’t fully understand as teenagers.

I truly believe that rebuilding and gaining a new appreciation for real friendship is something that would have happened regardless of the outcome of W’s crisis - it is the result of the work I have done to rebuild my own life in the wake of the crisis that led to this new friendship. That’s one of the things that resonates with me when reading stories in this community. Even though a spouse or partner’s MLC is what brings us here, it is probably the least important thing about our stories in the long run. Our stories are about our own paths toward healing and joy and purpose… and though the crisis may be a catalyst for the beginning of those journeys, everything that happens after BD is up to us.

/ramble

[FaithWalker]

I truly believe that rebuilding and gaining a new appreciation for real friendship is something that would have happened regardless of the outcome of W’s crisis - it is the result of the work I have done to rebuild my own life in the wake of the crisis that led to this new friendship. That’s one of the things that resonates with me when reading stories in this community. Even though a spouse or partner’s MLC is what brings us here, it is probably the least important thing about our stories in the long run. Our stories are about our own paths toward healing and joy and purpose… and though the crisis may be a catalyst for the beginning of those journeys, everything that happens after BD is up to us.

Yes!  I totally agree.  And I recently posted in my thread how I wish that more people would continue to share their stories here.

[MadLuv]

Curiosity- thank you for sharing. I just had a conversation on this with an old friend as well. She said, you always jeep in touch with people from your past. I said, I don’t forget people in my life. Once you touched me you are always there. That has been my most difficult aspect of dealing with a MLCer H of 40 years that has flown the coup to disconnect. It’s just not how I handle my life and connections. Good for you for embracing your friendships. We can never have to many good friends.

[Curiosity]

FW and ML, thanks for the replies.

FW - it’s interesting how, when I came here and when I first started posting, all I wanted was information that would reassure me about W - that she was really in crisis and not just a walkaway, that there was something about her behavior that would suggest she was going to come home… it was all about her. Gradually, what resonated with me was how the LBS responded to their MLCer… and then it reached a point where it wasn’t about the MLCer at all. It’s about a run in beautiful surroundings, tending the allotment and snuggling a sweet kitty, traveling, bonding with kids or pets, finding a new job, and all of the things that make up our very full and very diverse lives. And sure, I have some interest in the stories of how people navigate reconnection - but I’m no more or less interested in that than in all the other things that contribute to who we are. So yes, I completely agree - I would love it if everyone stayed and continued to update from time to time. Nobody who has joined this community should even feel unwelcome. Of course, the decision to post and the frequency of posting is up to each person, but I wish everyone felt welcome to stay, regardless of the outcome of the MLCer’s crisis.

ML, I agree with you. I mean, I have lost touch with people - often we were thrown together in training or school and when our lives diverged, we just didn’t make the effort. But every single person who was a significant part of my life is a part of who I am today. I think of them and I hope their life path has been what they want it to be. And the people who were true friends, are always going to be true friends. MIL tends to write people off - she’ll quarrel with someone and suddenly they aren’t friends anymore, and she never mentions them again. I don’t know if she even thinks of them again. I could never do that. Actual human connections are precious things, and should be valued as such. They may not all be forever, but appreciating their impact on our lives is so important.

[Curiosity]

Time does march on… I can’t believe 2023 is almost here! I have been checking in periodically but haven’t had much to post. MIL arrived last month to stay with us for the winter. It’s a mixed bag… we coexist peacefully, and I enjoy her company. But… anxiety and depression affects MIL and all three of her daughters, and I do sometimes feel like they can enable each other’s negative emotions. W knows that I have mixed feelings about MIL’s stays with us, but I also try not to dwell on it.

One thing that is a bit of a struggle for me is the residual distrust that came from BD and all that followed. When W is feeling particularly depressed, she withdraws and becomes distant and irritable. And I have largely gotten past my fixer tendencies; I know I can’t resolve her problems. I express sympathy and ask how I can support her. And I am genuinely sorry she suffers with anxiety and depression and burnout. I truly don’t mind picking up the extra housework when she is down and disengaged; I enjoy having a tidy home and don’t mind doing what needs to be done to get there. And it’s not all the time… much of the time, she is engaged and relatively happy and unstressed. Or at least that is what she presents to me and to the world. But sometimes there will be an evening or a day or a few days, where she seems almost hopeless, withdrawn, and completely detached.

And that’s when I feel the effect of her crisis… because a part of me is waiting for her to check out of our marriage again, and trying to keep my heart safe. So I have these mixed feelings, trying to keep a healthy level of detachment (both because I know I can’t fix things for her, and to protect myself in case she’s checking out) while still showing that I see her unhappiness and I have empathy for her (because I do, and I want to be open about my own emotions - but also because I don’t want her to think that I’m clueless about her struggles).

It’s hard to be a fundamentally happy, content person married to someone with anxiety and depression… which is not to minimize how hard it is to be the person with anxiety and depression. Certainly, her path is far more difficult than mine. But it’s a difficult balance, supporting her and being understanding and empathetic without following her spirals into withdrawal and unhappiness. And when you add to that the lingering doubt about her level of commitment, it’s a bit of a challenging place to be sometimes.

The difference between now and our pre-BD codependency, though, is that I can identify my emotions as being separate from hers and I am able to be happy and content within myself, at the same time that I try to support her in her sadness. I can recognize that she is depressed and anxious and burned out, and that in no way impacts my worth as a human being or as a spouse.

I hope that the little bit of doubt within me is unfounded; that she is struggling as an individual but still values me and our marriage as being positive aspects of and influences in her life. I’d even say that I think it is very likely that she still values me and is committed to our marriage. But I also know that, if she does walk out again, I won’t be blindsided or shattered as I was before.

[forthetrees]

It’s hard to be a fundamentally happy, content person married to someone with anxiety and depression… which is not to minimize how hard it is to be the person with anxiety and depression. Certainly, her path is far more difficult than mine. But it’s a difficult balance, supporting her and being understanding and empathetic without following her spirals into withdrawal and unhappiness. And when you add to that the lingering doubt about her level of commitment, it’s a bit of a challenging place to be sometimes.

Yes, you put that well. Maybe  it´s the stress of the visit and those holiday expectations. Sending you strength.

[Curiosity]

Thanks, FTT. As you said, it’s likely that seasonal stressors are at least partly to blame. Part of my post was about journaling, part was about venting, and part was about wanting to be open about some of the ups and downs that can occur in reconnection… not quite a roller coaster, but not completely rosy, either.

[Standing Strong]

Hi-C 

What a wonderful update! You have become strong and on your own two feet...... now you won't be knocked down ever again.

It's so nice to hear how you are the strength now, and I think that changes so many things.
What I've seen is when they enter that depressed and hopeless stage, being strong just ties things together.

Keep going!!! You're doing great!!

-SS

[9393roo]

Hi Curiosity,
Wanted to drop in here and let you know I understand many parts where you are coming from.  This reconnection thing can be confusing to say the least.
Just a question for you.  Have the two of you thought about MC?  I know that you are individually trying to work on yourselves (You are making amazing headway BTW...from one former codependent to another   But has anything been done to put the relationship back together?  This was a very difficult decision for me to start MC again, but we got stuck to the point of whenever we would try to talk about us we would both shut down.  It's taken a long time and a good therapist to get where we are.  (As a side note, to any newbie I am NOT a proponent of MC in MLC, tried many times while H was in replay and it was a great failure)

It’s hard to be a fundamentally happy, content person married to someone with anxiety and depression… which is not to minimize how hard it is to be the person with anxiety and depression. Certainly, her path is far more difficult than mine. But it’s a difficult balance, supporting her and being understanding and empathetic without following her spirals into withdrawal and unhappiness. And when you add to that the lingering doubt about her level of commitment, it’s a bit of a challenging place to be sometimes.

I know for me I was getting tired of being the strong one.  Depression and shame hit my H hard and I tried to remain patient, but I was hurt as well.  We went through a big bought of back and forth, we almost separated because neither of us were getting what we needed from our marriage.  We are slowly learning how to take care of each other and how to vocalize what we need from each other in order to make a healthy marriage.

But I also know that, if she does walk out again, I won’t be blindsided or shattered as I was before.

This was a huge step for me as well.  In fact I told our therapist that the other day.  My H looked a little shocked.  One thing MLC has given us is a new strength in ourselves for sure. 

Hang in there, enjoy the moments of good and calm.  Wishing you all the best.

Roo

[Curiosity]

Thanks, SS… for much of our relationship, I was the strong one. I didn’t really even notice my own slide into codependency. But lesson learned, for sure… I like myself a lot more when I’m strong and self-assured, and now that I’m aware of how that can be lost if not nurtured, I will do my best not to make that mistake again.

Roo, you have given me a lot to think about - both with this reply and in your own thread. I have thought about marriage counseling periodically in the 16 months since she told me she wanted our marriage again. In that conversation, we agreed that it was something we may need, but we didn’t commit to starting right away. I think that maybe everything was a little raw, a little tentative. I think it was a big step for her to come clean - she confessed to having tried online dating, she confessed that it didn’t work, she said she wanted me to be her person. And at the time, I accepted that - recognizing (and saying to her) that we needed to take steps to ensure we didn’t just step back into the same relationship we were in at BD.

And truthfully, it hasn’t been like it was at BD. Most of the time, we are more open with each other - we’ll be honest about our insecurities and our feelings, we’ll genuinely engage with each other. When she is in a good place emotionally, we’re affectionate in ways that had faded before BD. The issue is that pre-BD, when she had periods of depression or anxiety, I knew that it wasn’t about her withdrawing from our marriage, but that it was a personal issue. I never doubted her commitment to us, to me. Now, anytime she seems disengaged, a part of me wonders if she’s on her way out… and although of course I want our marriage, I’m not afraid of her checking out.

She is going to independent counseling weekly. She absolutely believes in therapy… she works in that field herself, in fact. And I know there’s a lot she has to work through in terms of her childhood, her anxiety and depression, some of the isolation that remains a part of our lives, her stress related to work. But a part of me wonders whether she’s doing a form of one-sided marriage counseling sometimes… is she telling the therapist things she doesn’t tell me? And it doesn’t help that sometimes it feels like her boundaries around the therapy relationship are a little blurry. It feels like she sees this therapist as a friend in a lot of ways, sometimes, and the therapist seems to do a lot of validating her. It just doesn’t feel all that objective, as an observer.

We have had some conversations about our wants and needs, but not many. I know that we need to have more, but I also know that deep discussions become counterproductive when she is anxious. I have expressed some of the hurt and betrayal that I felt, though I’m not sure she will ever understand the depths of my grief and pain post BD. But I have also healed significantly, and although I do wish she could understand what it was like for me, I don’t need her to take on shame or guilt about it.

Anyway, that was a long and rambling piece of background. But the answer is, I am certainly open to marriage counseling. But she is still in a fragile place around her own upbringing and anxiety and depression. And I worry that, even if she’s out of the actual crisis, she’s not yet emotionally equipped to have the in-depth discussions that we need to have. Reconnection is a rocky, challenging, and *long* process. The timeline was 16 1/2 months from BD to the day she said she wanted our marriage back. And it has now been another 16 ½ months since the day she said she wanted our marriage back. There have been a lot of good days and weeks and months… but there are definitely remnants of the crisis and the trauma, and we still have a lot of work to do to ensure that our marriage is honest and committed and resilient.

Thank you so much for your input on this. It’s incredibly reassuring to know that there are people here who truly understand.

[9393roo]

We were very much stuck in a similar spot about 6 months ago.  After BD #2 My H started to want our marriage back, I told him he needed to go to therapy on his own and fix himself.  Before the BD we had just started MC again, because I was on my way out and he was trying to keep me put.  Our marriage counselor was amazing and my H liked him so much he took him as his own therapist and we stopped MC.   This therapist was beginning to know our story and I was very thankful he did because I think my H would have told him a different version.  The therapist also was incredibly angry with him because he lied in counseling and told him he would only take him if was 100% truthful.  I think it shook him up a little.  My H saw him for a year on his own.  I tried to work on myself at this point as well.  we didn't really have a marriage.  We for sure could not have any relationship talks. I also started to feel that his therapist was validating him too much as well.  We were not communicating well at all.  This is when the therapist asked if I would come back to MC with him again.  He has been there to help my H see things from my angle and it has been amazing.  He has also been able to get me to see what I was contributing to the situation.  We have been very lucky to have him.  We are now done to once a month because we are able to express ourselves so much better. 

I am coming up on almost 2 years since my H started to make his way out of the tunnel.   For me reconnection has been an incredibly long process, filled with a whole new set of problems.  I do finally feel that we are on a good path forward.  I hope you can find that path as well as you trudge through the MLC aftermath. 

Sending you lots of peace!
Roo

 

[Curiosity]

Roo, so much of what you are saying resonates deeply with me. I have thought, and continue to think, that W’s therapist validates her too much, and also enables her tendency toward constant seeking of validation. There’s very little incentive for W to look internally to define her self-worth. Also, this therapist is a licensed marriage and family therapist… I know that doesn’t mean that they only do marriage counseling, but it was something that caught my eye when she started with this therapist before BD. I saw the records release so that W’s psychiatrist could communicate with the therapist, and asked W if she was going to therapy to discuss our marriage, given that this therapist has that qualification. She said that no, that was just a certificate this therapist had gotten but her therapy wasn’t about our marriage. Clearly, in hindsight this shows I was seeing red flags before BD.

Anyway… the fact that she started seeing this therapist, and then not too long after that she BD’ed me… then the whole cake-eating polyamory thing… given those things, I have had the thought that W may well have misrepresented me or our marriage to the therapist. At first I was worried about what this therapist thought of me, and then I was worried that she was going to validate W’s decision to date other people, based on a false representation of me and our marriage. And then, it became clear to me that if W was looking for an escape and willing to lie to her therapist rather than be honest with me, the relationship wouldn’t have been worth saving. And that’s still true - the marriage will only work if we are both honest with each other about what we want this marriage to be.

I am really happy for you and for your h, that together and individually you have been able to work through so much of the aftermath of MLC. I’m still optimistic that we can do the same, but I think on some level I expected the path to be a little smoother. I am so grateful for your thoughts, and your reminders that it’s not a smooth path but it can still lead to healing and growth.

[Curiosity]

I’ve done a bit of catch up on other threads, but was surprised to realize it had been so long since I had posted on my own thread. Anyway… not much to really report, here. We are just living our life, with all its moments of happiness and all its imperfections. It’s been a long rainy season and, as much as I know we need rain, I am eager for the return of sustained sun and warmth.

W has been dealing with some depression over the past several months, and I think it’s exacerbated by the rainy and gloomy weather (and probably also exacerbated by the fact that her mother, who also has depression, stays with us in the winter). W has increased her therapy from weekly to twice weekly, hoping to break through some of her struggles to do with trauma and grief. She does withdraw sometimes, but she also reaches out to me sometimes to talk about what she’s thinking and feeling. And, as an important distinction from the pre-BD days, she’s clearly not withdrawing from me to seek out support and validation from other people. She’s doing therapy, and when she is able to be vulnerable and share, she comes to me. She may also share with friends, but she sees me as “her person.”

As for me… I don’t have depression but I do notice some level of winter “blues.” I’m not sad, but I tend to want to be home and in comfy clothes, reading or watching television or playing games. Catching up with friends or family by phone is nice, but I don’t have much desire to be out in the world. Part of that may be introversion, part may be seasonal. I’m a homebody year-round, to be honest, but even more so in the winter. I have maintained my focus on pursuing my own interests, and I feel like I have done a good job not falling back into the codependent mindset from pre-BD. W and I may be spending a lot of time together by virtue of the fact that we both spend a lot of time in our home. But we each have our own identities and interests, and we have conversations with each other about those individual interests.

I do feel like I have maintained some level of detachment through this reconnection/reconciliation process. Sometimes I wonder if I’m too detached, but mostly I think I’m in a reasonably healthy place now and I was too attached before. Sometimes when W is particularly distant or irritable, I will have a thought that maybe she’s checking out of the relationship again. The idea makes me sad but also doesn’t terrify me or make me doubt my own self-worth. It’s also not something I dwell on for long, and when it does happen, it’s usually not too long before W acknowledges that she’s been distant or irritable and apologizes and/or explains why. I admit that I’m hesitant to share my doubts with her because of her depression and anxiety; I don’t want to exacerbate any guilt or shame that she might have when she is working so hard on improving her mental health. I do discuss those things with her because I don’t want to infantilize her or be dishonest with her; I just don’t dwell on things.

So, that’s where we are… just over 3 years since BD, 2 years since W moved back in, and a year and a half since she recommitted to our marriage. Life’s not perfect, and neither of us is the same person as before. Our marriage isn’t the same marriage it was before. We could both be better about talking about difficult things, but we are both working on that. Importantly, though, I think we both have a more honest view of what marriage (and our own marriage specifically) means to us.

[KayDee]

Just a short note to thank you for your generosity in sharing the 'warts and all' journey of reconnection and reconciliation. I can imagine that it takes most of the emotional bandwidth to journey through this process, so the fact that you updated to help others is doubly admirable. Your posts have helped me (and I am sure many others) along the way. We are all different, but we share some key experiences. Finding this forum helped me to be more reflective and also know that I am not INSANE  Sometimes it has even made me laugh. I hope you and your W continue to grow together and that, as painful as it is, the experience makes you stronger.

[Curiosity]

Thanks for that, KayDee! It has been a learning experience, that’s for sure. I was lucky enough to have a solid foundation in life - yes, my parents divorced when I was young. But both parents were present in my life, and both of them made a point of ensuring that my siblings and I knew that their divorce wasn’t about us and they both loved us and would always be there for us. Plus, they made sure that we knew our own self-worth and potential. I have never doubted that my parents love me and are proud of me, and that is sadly not always the case.

Life goes on… W and I are going to a friend’s wedding in a few weeks, and will travel to visit my family after my sister has her baby this summer. We seem to be in a really good, solid place in our marriage. She has her anxiety and depression, and admittedly I can get caught up in inertia so that I don’t feel at as much attention to diet, exercise, and creative pursuits as I would like. But I’m far better now about turning that around, and I have no intention of ever getting back to that place where I didn’t have a sense of my own wants and needs outside of my identity as a spouse.

Do we call this reconciliation, or is it still reconnection? Honestly, I don’t know… I truly believe that we are a team once again, and that we are both committed to each other and to the life we share. I’m not sure it matters whether my icon is white or pink or purple - it’s more about the lessons learned along the way. Not sure why I am feeling philosophical other than that it’s past bedtime here…

[Reinventing]

Finding this forum helped me to be more reflective and also know that I am not INSANE 

Me too, Kaydee!

Thanks for continuing to post, Curiosity. It helps to see how people navigate reconnection and reconciliation.

[MadLuv]

Curiosity- thank you for continuing to update. I do think although you dont need your icon changed to know where you are it is important to guide those reading to the stories of hope. We write for ourselves, but we also write to help others understand the situation they are in. To find a connection in similarities to help their healing as much as ours. Im glad to see your color changed so all the newbies looking for hope can find you

[Curiosity]

Thanks for the comments - I’m glad to know it helps people to read these updates, even though sometimes it’s like watching paint dry! I guess that after the roller coaster of MLC, we all cherish that stability in a way.

Not much new to report here, other than that my sister had her baby this week! I live quite some distance away from her, so I don’t know exactly when I will meet my new niece (though definitely this summer), but my sister was surrounded by loving family and, as I understand it, was a complete superstar. Not that that is at all surprising - my sister is amazing. I can’t imagine it is easy to have a newborn after age 40, but she has always wanted children so I couldn’t be happier for her.

MIL went back to her home last month; she will plan to be back here in the winter again, but for the next several months, it’s just me and W and the pets! We’re doing well, the marriage is solid, and I am feeling peace and contentment in my life. I haven’t quite gotten on the diet wagon the way I want to, but have made some improvements. I have gotten back to meditation… not daily, but once in a while. I even managed to exercise a time or two, even though work has been busy! My life is going well, and I can’t complain.

W is struggling a bit with anxiety, depression, and burnout from her work. It’s a good job… a great job, honestly, and she does know that. But I think that we all need to truly take breaks from our routines sometimes, even if we love our routines. And when a job is emotionally and intellectually demanding, burnout is a particular challenge. Still, this is nothing like the pre-BD days. She is sometimes irritable, sometimes distant, but it never lasts long and she regularly shows and expresses appreciation for me and our relationship.

So, the two year anniversary of her “I don’t want to be separated anymore” declaration will be at the beginning of August. When I think about it all, I continue to be resolute about the fact that I am never going to let this marriage or any relationship define me so much that I would feel as lost and blindsided as I did after BD. At the same time, it doesn’t define me or our relationship… it’s just a difficult but relatively brief part of our story. I appreciate the comments from people reading this thread, especially when there isn’t a lot of news. Though I update rarely, I read your posts much more often, and I wish you all peace and strength. I will always be grateful to this community for helping me find the strength to make it through one of the hardest times in my life.

[Evermore]

What a lovely update Curiosity. I am so happy for you!

[sachat3]

Im so glad to be back on this thread.
Obviously as we speak outside the forum I don’t have all that much to add but just parking my butt back here and going to try and keep up

[MadLuv]

Congratulations on your new niece. Hopefully all evens out with your W work and isn’t nice that you can communicate these things again in support. Thank you for updating

[Curiosity]

Wow, I didn’t realize how much time had passed since my last update! So… I didn’t make it back to my state of origin to meet my niece. It was a bit of a saga… I made plans to go in July, W had to stay home because of work obligations. As I was waiting to board my flight, my mom called and told me she had Covid. She was really sad because we were all going to be together, to celebrate her birthday as well as meeting the baby, and now mom was going to have to miss it. Well… I boarded the flight, (luckily) purchased inflight WiFi, and proceeded to get messages about how one of my teenage nieces also tested positive so they were just going to leave to go back home. So the family gathering was canceled, and when I got to the connecting city, I changed my flight and went back home instead of traveling on to meet the baby. Turned out, the baby tested positive a few days later too. Everyone is fine now… but it was such a painful travel experience that I just haven’t mustered the will to get back on a plane yet. Anyway, the niece is lovely and, at three months old, perfectly cheerful and healthy.

I’m basically status quo… which is something of an achievement given that W has fallen into increasingly severe depression. She’s taking medication, has weekly therapy… and just isn’t getting better. I have mostly kept my thoughts to myself because she’s the patient and also has more professional knowledge of mental health than I do… but finally we reached a point where I said that I am frustrated because I feel like her therapist and psychiatrist aren’t doing enough for her. She agreed, and we discussed options for managing the depression. She had a consult for ketamine-assisted therapy, and is planning to seek that sort of treatment; we have both heard really positive things regarding its safety and success in treatment-resistant depression.

Anyway, one thing that struck me is that she was talking to me about her consult and all the things she discussed. Then said said that she didn’t even talk about some of the hard experiences, like losing the cat who had been her constant companion from her early 20s to her early 40s… and “the us stuff at the beginning of the pandemic.” (That was how she referred to BD and all of the EA and MLC stuff.) Anyway, what particularly stood out to me was her follow up, which was along the lines of “that was such a mess; I was not me during that time.” And I mean, we talked about it a bit back then, and she did apologize - though we never have had a detailed discussion about what exactly I felt during that time. I didn’t mind the shorthand that she used - I honestly don’t even mind if she doesn’t fully grasp the hurt and betrayal and anger that I felt during that time. But it was striking to me that she said “I wasn’t me.” It seems to me that, while MLC is, in many ways, a form of depression… not all depression is MLC.

Anyway, I am really happy that she is pursuing this treatment; I think it is really promising, and I do want to see her find happiness and joy again. And in terms of my own life, it would be nice to share in those happy moments with her. We do find moments of lightness and laughter now and then, even when her depression is really bad, but that joy and exuberance and wanting to be out in the world… it would be really good for her to find those things again.

Maybe it’s strange to say all of that and then to say that I am happy and my life is good. But really, it is… I feel comfortable with my work - respected, appreciated, and capable. I love my home and pets and city - I spend a lot more time at home than out in the world, but that suits me. It doesn’t feel like I’m hiding from the world, just seeking peace. I do think it would probably be good for me to be out in the world a little more than I am, but all in all… I’m happy, I am learning and growing and contributing to my little corner of the world.

[FaithWalker]

Good update C.  I hope that the latest treatment will really help your W with her depression.  I'm sorry that the 'vid messed up your meeting with your niece.  That's tough!

[MadLuv]

Thank you for the update’s curiosity.  I also hope that this treatment helps. It’s good that she is trying and continues to try and find something to help her. Also, my XH also in May told me “ I’m sorry. I don’t know what happened to me”  I think if your W finds help with her depression that maybe then when she is in a better health and mind set that she may be able to handle the talk of what her actions did to you, but as long as she is fighting her own mental battles those deep convos may not come.

[KayDee]

Wishing you strength Curiosity. It is very hard living with a depressed person. Many of us can testify to that, and you have the added context of your own pain, as part of the fall out of the MLC depression, to come to terms with. I know that you say that you don't mind that this is not discussed, and your instincts are probably correct here, that now is not the right time, but it does strike me that this maybe something you may want 'let go of' with you W at some point. I think it is part of our defenses to 'forget' the pain of this kind of thing, but it can easily be re-triggered. Stay strong and healthy, the journey continues!

[Curiosity]

Thanks for the responses and support, and the good wishes for W. I do agree that it may be good for me to actually be able to have the conversations about BD and how I felt during her crisis. I know that most of us don’t get the opportunity to really have that closure, and we have to learn to heal and move forward without it, and I do feel like I am and can remain healed and happy even if W is never able to meaningfully discuss it. But I do think it would be another step forward in the connection and intimacy between us to be able to truly be open about that time in our lives.

[Curiosity]

Wow, time flies! I come back to catch up on threads from time to time, but haven't had much to say with regard to my own story. We're living our lives - they're not perfect, but they're ours, and in general it seems like we've moved past MLC. It's not "as if it never happened," because I am fundamentally changed as a result of it, and therefore our marriage is fundamentally changed. But it doesn't define us.

The ketamine treatment seemed like it had done some good - some sessions were better than others, but overall her baseline mood was less depressed and yet she was still her sometimes-anxious, sometimes-depressed, sometimes-doing well self. Her mom was due to come stay for the winter in early November, but had a fall with a head injury about a week before she was due to leave. She had some injuries that required followup, though nothing lasting, and her visit was delayed by about a month so that she instead arrived in December. She seems more frail overall, uses a walker because her balance isn't as good as it used to be... but in general, she's okay. I feel like her visits are a mixed bag for W - W gets to feel like "a good daughter" because she can check in on her mom daily without having to remember to call before it gets too late in the evenings, but on the other hand, MIL's tendency toward depression can contribute to W's mood spiraling downward. Anyway... MIL is here and overall, it's probably more a positive than a negative.

As for W's depression... she's gradually slid back toward the same level of generally-sad mood that she was in before she had the ketamine treatments. She did a single maintenance treatment about 6 weeks after the series, and it didn't do much. Part of the issue is work-related burnout; she's been a bit less productive than her employers would like (when she was hired, they weren't really tracking productivity much, but the group is trying to grow and expand, and they're keeping closer tabs on their income and hours worked). She isn't the only one who is underperforming what the employers hoped for, but her response is that she already feels overwhelmed and now she also feels like a "problem child." The group had a meeting for all staff, and essentially said that they will be tracking productivity, and anyone below a certain level will basically be taking a pay cut - and I get it because the group has certain overhead costs and they have to be able to pay their bills even if some of their employees are working less than a full schedule. It's not an unfair thing - the bosses are basically just mandating things that were expected (but not demanded) all along. And W has said that the person they hired 3 years ago would have been excited for the group to grow, and excited about being more productive, but now she feels like she's broken. She says that she's going to try to meet their requirements but isn't optimistic that she can do it, so she's preparing for the possibility (maybe probability) that she will leave this job. She could potentially earn a higher income if she were self-employed, honestly, but the idea of having admin staff and working closely with colleagues was a big draw when she took this job... and I'm not sure that she is mentally healthy enough to work steadily (either for herself or in her current role), so I suspect that this year will include some degree of financial volatility in addition to the emotional volatility of having a person in the household with treatment-resistant depression.

This is a lot of information about her life, and very little about me, but it's my way of processing what's happening and perhaps venting a little bit - which is not really the right word because I'm certainly not angry at her or even at the situation. I do think that the LBS experience has helped me to navigate the uncertainty around this situation better than I would have before. I still don't love the uncertainty and I admit that there's still an anxious part of me that worries about being able to continue to live our lives the way we're accustomed to - my brain goes down the pathway of her essentially being unable to work (and also unable to cook or clean or otherwise help us cut our budget) and having to sell the house and move somewhere less expensive. And I'm frustrated because I feel so helpless sometimes - I see her sabotaging herself, knowing she has work to do but instead she lies in bed half the day and/or spends time playing games on her phone, and I hear her talking about how miserable she is and all I can do is say that I'm sorry things are so hard. And I know this is the depression, but still there's a part of me that wants to just tell her to put down the phone and do some work because the longer she avoids work, the bigger the backlog gets and the more overwhelming it will feel. But I feel like I can't do that - I'm not her mother or her keeper, and even if I were, I'm not sure that it would be helpful or productive to nag.

So...that's what life is like here. As some of you have said here, it's not easy to live with a depressed person (or right now, two depressed people because MIL will be here until the spring). But I am not depressed, and honestly I have a little situational anxiety but my baseline status is not particularly anxious either. So I exist in a state of "fine, basically happy." I enjoy conversations with my family - we spent this morning texting as we all watched the live stream of my 15 year old niece's varsity dance competition (they came in first!) and then my brother, SIL, and 13 year old niece went in front of the livestream camera to wave at us. I eagerly await pictures and videos of my 7 month old niece who is a beautiful, happy child. We went on vacation last week, and I was able to just be at peace, sitting on the balcony and watching the sun set over the ocean and then going for an absolutely lovely dinner. MIL and I got Covid upon our return, but it honestly hasn't felt like anything more than a slight cold. My work is going well - my boss and coworkers respect and appreciate me, I've been productive, I feel like I'm doing a good job and am comfortable with the scope of my responsibilities. There are things to learn, and I'm happy to learn them. I'm glad that the days are getting longer, and that we're having more sun than rain. I appreciate vacations, but I also find peace and joy and comfort in my home. Yes, living with a depressed person can come with challenges (which of course would be true whether or not MLC had happened) - but she's still the person I love. And despite those challenges, I still laugh and smile every day, and I still feel gratitude every day.

[FaithWalker]

You are doing well with managing living with depressed people and definitely the LBS experience helps with that immensely!  We have learned transferable skills for sure.

Thanks for coming and updating!