Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Acorn on December 31, 2019, 06:34:20 AM
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Today is the last day of 2019. A time for reflection and self examination for many. Hence, this discussion thread.
It is often said on the forum that midlife crisis is not about marriage. I agree, MLC is about the issues within the MLCer.
However,
What if fractured marriage was a catalyst that helped launch MLC in some cases?
Might it be a question LBS should ask herself unflinchingly? That would involve taking off the rose-coloured glasses and lifting the MLC excuse blanket that may be covering up an elephant or two. Trust me, it is painful to ask that question. It made me feel excruciatingly vulnerable. But ask, I had to, in order to look at our marriage in complete honesty and humility, and to see if I was using MLC to justify his emotional divorce from me. It was not all that difficult for me ::) to be blind, conceited and self protective enough to declare, ‘Hey, it must be MLC. Why else would he turn away from perfectly lovely moi and our marriage!’ As all of you are aware, that kind of delusional thinking stops you from getting a grip on reality of your marital situation.
Have you ever asked yourself the question:
“Is my fractured marriage a fallout of MLC, or, was it a catalyst that helped launch MLC in my spouse?
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For me, a fractured marriage was definitely a fallout of MLC.
I can say that because we went from over-the-moon happy about acquiring our lake house to him wanting his divorce almost overnight.
Then once I’d connected all the dots I traced the genesis of his MLC. That was largely due in part to the brilliance of RCR’s articles. She made sense of the nonsensical.
Of course, we had our moments - all marriages do. But there was, and is, a whole lot of love there.
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I know I contributed to this crisis she is having. My wife was a non communicator and I resented that she was not letting me in on her deepest feelings/thoughts. I treated her differently because of this and I think it led to her thinking that I didn't care about her. I should of worked harder. I am full of regret over this. The crisis may of happened anyway but I'll never know. I have asked for God's forgiveness and received. Hopefully she will forgive me one day. Only then will I be able to forgive myself.
HD
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Our fractured marriage is definitely a result of the MLC. I spent the first few years of his MLC going over and over and over and over our marriage and our relationship, trying to figure out the breakdown and what went wrong. There isn't anything. We had a healthy, happy marriage and relationship. Of course there were ups and downs, like any relationship, but nothing that was broken. I can see evidence looking back that there were some issues within my H regarding his childhood, etc., but not in our marriage.
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I firmly believe that the marriage was fractured and led to MLC in my case. In fact, I often think I had a somewhat wallower style of MLC myself, prior to W's implosion, or at least situational depression. If I'm being honest, the lack of intimacy for a decade and the addictive personalities of several of her family members (a behavior that makes me somewhat anxious and judgmental) "caused?" me to retreat into partisan politics and video games as an escape from the unhappiness, at the exclusion of giving my W unconditional love and support. I argued with her incessantly about conservative/liberal politics, and when it came time to go to bed at night, I let her go alone. My IC once said, as we were exploring my W's infidelity, "You cheated too. You used the Playstation as a mistress." When I told my W that, she burst into tears. W has said numerous times "One day, you walked in the door a completely different person." I can't argue with that. She also said, at the start of her crisis, "I've been dealing with this for years and you can't even hang on 6 months?" She also blamed her hormones and needing to get over the OM, so I know that she was aware that she was going through something.
This is a real simple gloss over of the complexities of issues in our marriage, but it definitely wasn't perfect by any means.
I've never provided my story here, although there are plenty of bits and pieces strewn throughout the threads of HS and I can see that I've often struggled with this question and whether something besides "foo" can lend itself to MLC. The answers, for me, may be irrelevant at this point. She has filed and is adamant there is nothing left to save. She has been very Script, so I hold out hope that there may be an awakening somewhere down the line, but in the cold, hard light of day, the marriage wasn't great. She believes the universe put OM in front of her to show her that there were better relationships out there. That's not something easy to dissuade her from, given the circumstances.
I continue to wear my ring, and I try to pave the way as I balance the line between being kind and being a doormat. I struggle with what I think God wants me to do.
Much love to everyone here, both LBS and MLC'r, both standing and not. May 2020 be a healthier, happier year for all.
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I’m reading the question as - was your marriage a rough one before MLC arrived?
We know that MLC has nothing to do with the marriage so regardless of the shape your marriage was in, MLC would hit.
Maybe though, the state of your marriage before the MLC has some influence over whether the marriage survives MLC. Maybe your marriage was destined to fail even if no MLC hit. In this case it would be very tough to imagine a successful reconciliation when the MLC ends unless there is significant mirror work done by both spouses.
In my case, the marriage was solid and not fractured. Not in the least. I’m still in disbelief at times, most of the time. It’s the biggest wtf of my entire life and likely will remain that way. Will we reconcile? I really doubt it, most likely because I will have zero interest if or when the opportunity arrives.
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I know I contributed to this crisis she is having. My wife was a non communicator and I resented that she was not letting me in on her deepest feelings/thoughts. I treated her differently because of this and I think it led to her thinking that I didn't care about her. I should of worked harder. I am full of regret over this. The crisis may of happened anyway but I'll never know. I have asked for God's forgiveness and received. Hopefully she will forgive me one day. Only then will I be able to forgive myself.
HD
HD -
Yes, there are things we should have done differently, but nobody is personally "responsible" for making their spouse have a MLC. Don't beat yourself up over this. You have received God's forgiveness, you have asked for your wife's forgiveness, and you DEFINITELY, therefore, should forgive yourself (not requiring her forgiveness to do so). She may NEVER forgive you. That's on her, not on you...
I apologized to my H in MC over 2 years ago, yet he mentioned last week how I've never apologized for my contribution to the downfall of the marriage. Did that bother me? No - because he is in MLC and won't remember, and can't forgive yet even when I asked for it. I didn't ask again. Maybe in the future if we start to reconnect, but only falls on deaf ears.
Sea
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I firmly believe that the marriage was fractured and led to MLC in my case.
MLC has nothing to do with the marriage. Even a erfect marriage cannot prevent a MLC. Why do you think your marriage caused her MLC?
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Acorn - once again, great question.
It's a difficult one for me, and you're right - provokes very defensive thoughts..
So, since I've avoided answering for about 2 hours now, I guess it's time.
The cause of my H's MLC is difficult to define.
There were no serious traumas around the time of BD that I could see.
We had just moved to a new state - but it's where we had wanted to move for over 25 years - so should have been a great thing for us.
I had become controlling, jealous and possessive over the years, plus withholding sex (not spitefully), and we developed a difference in childrearing opinions.
Then there was the deployment (2005), which also seemed to change our family dynamics.
I believe that our marriage was anything from perfect, but believe that it was perfect at one time.
Before I let my jealousy (runs pretty deep on my mom's side of the family) and control (I took over because H was at work so much and things would not get done so I did them) take over, we were the couple that were "madly in love". Even people at H's work said all he talks about his you and the kids.
So, I believe it was broken, but not irreparable.
MLC has allowed me to see the things that I did to "fracture" our marriage, but I'm not convinced that these things are what drove my H to his MLC.
He has FOO issues; his father left when he was young (moved to another country). His mother's career provided that he be raised by a nanny, then boarding school when older. His step father (around 10) came into the picture and was very regimented and demanding with high expectations. Many of these were unable to be filled by my teenage H resulting in feeling like a failure until mid adulthood when H had accomplished much for himself and made his step father happy. He was never adopted legally, which I think was difficult for him. He tried, but FIL died one month before it was made to be final (2018). So...
To answer your question -- did the chicken or the egg come first?
I still don't know the answer, but without one there would not be the other...
Happy 2020 eve!~
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There were issues. I wasn’t confrontational. If I did try to confront an issue H would shut down, or change the subject or say he didn’t know and could we come back to it later and then never would. Or he would want to know why I insisted on ruining a good day. H just wanted to ignore all the bad things.
And I was scared of losing my family, and scared of my own emotions and I just bit my tongue and dealt with it.
H’s biggest complaint was not getting what he wanted or needed out of the marriage....H has also never said what he wanted or needed....no amount of prompting had ever been able to drag anything more than an “I don’t know” out of him.
The move was what broke us, H being alone for the first time in 14 years, at a work in iron meant that has lots of yelling, cussing, throwing things and name calling and berating along with manipulation and blaming and backbiting....when I arrived 3 months after him...he was already talking to AP....then he just pushed me further and further away. Told me not to talk to him, told me not to ask any questions, told me not to ask for anything or any time.
I began to get depressed. That’s when H started to think about divorce.
Why was it so easy for H to get involved with AP....because we weren’t emotionally attached very well....because H is scared of vulnerability.
Is it fixable...sure....if 2 people want to fix it.
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Courage Dear Heart -
Your post made me realize that my H, also, had been left alone for 3 months as S15 and I moved to new state early, leaving H at home alone.
He did eat with friends a lot during that time and made new close friends.
Perhaps it was during this time that he realized that he "needed" his freedom and realized his unhappiness with our marriage.
It was shortly after he joined us in new state that BD occurred (less than 6 months).
Makes sense.
Back to you - you're right -- healing an occur but only if both are willing to work on it.
Sea
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Is my fractured marriage a fallout of MLC, or, was it a catalyst that helped launch MLC in my spouse?
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As you say Acorn...this is excruciatingly painful. It is a triggering statement for me actually and I have done battle on more than one occasion with this very question. And I will need to face it head on and ask myself this again. I do not know the raw answer to this . My husband says , that he believes it had VERY little to do with our marriage . He has said that the marriage was overall solid, we always had a very active sexual relationship, he was happy with his daughters and "family". He feely admits he failed to "stand up for himself" when he should have , failed to make his needs know or speak when he was unhappy ...and that resentment was of his own making. He can link that all back to FOO.
Regardless, shamefully I will admit that if it is the result of marriage issues ...then the cost was too high. The punishment for too severe for the "hidden and unspoken crimes". The risk is too great . If my marriage was the catalyst that helped launch a MLC ...and yet the marriage issues were manufactured by an avoidant that insisted all was "fine", what is that saying?. I have, with extreme emotion, tears and rage told him and our therapist that I NEVER want "marriage" again...if there is this possible looming outcome. The therapist just stares at me ….baffled. But I mean every word. I am sorry Acorn, I know this is likely not helpful or what you are looking for. It is my own massive reaction to feeling "blame". It has been there from the start ...if I hear blame , then I am done. Apparrently I am "hearing thru a wound". I am also aware that I need to look harder at this ….but I cannot. This is the number 1 issue and stumbling block in our "re-connection". Now bawling my face off ...honestly, it is just so raw for me . I am NOT to blame for something he never told me, spoke up about, did nothing to "fix", decided to hide etc etc . Stopping now... I am sorry I am not adding anything mature and brilliant .
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Yes our marriage wasn't perfect. My wife had really strong vunerability issues. She always seemed to have a foot in and a foot out. She had a lot to drink one night and in front of her first husband and his brother and their wives she said she couldn't really love me.
The next day I told her what she said and she sent a text to all the people at the dinner to explain how she loved me and was the best thing to happen to her. That her issues keep her from opening up and becoming vunerable.
That is the one and only time I have ever seen her vunerable and open up to me. I always assumed teh she had really been let down by every man in her life. Her dad was never around, her first husband cheated and her mom had men in and out of the house through out her childhood. I always told myself that as long as I am there for her when she needs me that she will someday see.Maybe this MLC is the test ?? All of this is fixable nothing in our relatioship was a deal breaker but it does take two !
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Marriage does not cause MLC. MLC causes MLC.
What people are describing as depression here is anhedonia. This means that a person cannot feel happiness. Someone with this condition instead must turn to chemical highs to feel “up.” Chemical highs are not the same as happiness. They can become addictive.
I believe many MLCers are in a state of anhedonia on and off for a year or two leading up to bomb drop. Because they don’t know what is going on, they attribute this “unhappiness” to the marriage.
Once you have seen this play out for some years it is very easy to see that it is not the marriage. In fact, I feel some of the mixed messaging on this forum follows the same approach as subtle forms of emotional abuse, telling people to look at their marriage but it’s not the marriage.
If you want to look at your relationship as a way to see what you want and don’t want in the future or to learn about yourself, that is fine, but you won’t discover what caused the MLC. A marriage does not cause bipolar or schizophrenia or dementia. It does not cause MLC.
To the person whose therapist is telling them PlayStation was infidelity: please, please reconsider this type of therapy. Therapists are required to be licensed, but beyond this are almost completely unchecked and unregulated. They can say whatever they want! You are in a very vulnerable position right now, seeking answers. If a therapist imposed a divorce narrative on you, it’s going to be challenging to recover from what truly happened.
If you look around on narcissistic and psychopathic abuse forums you find nearly identical stories as to what we write about here. This abnormal, sudden loss of empathy and self awareness is not a psychological reaction to another person, an ethos, or any other personality driven issue. It has to do with malfunction of the brain and is highly consistent with damage to particular regions.
I recently received an apology from my ex and I could see with crystal clarity the true problem and challenge that I and I believe many LBS face, which is a deep energetic trauma coupled by any belief at all that this attack was merited of that there was any truth in the words of an abusive and disordered person.
My ex did not remember anything he said. He also told me that he didn’t think any of the things he said said were true. The person who remembered and believed was ME.
Overcoming an enemy within is much harder than battling a MLCer. This is someone you have been living with a lot longer than your former spouse. Please, use what your unwell former spouse has told you not as a way to “improve” yourself but as a way to get to the heart of your traumas and vulnerabilities.
Big hugs! Please please be gentle on yourselves.
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Hello,
My IC once said, as we were exploring my W's infidelity, "You cheated too. You used the Playstation as a mistress."
I am going to be very open because Disillusioned was just as open. In my situation, both my MLCer and I were both conflict avoiders. The point I am making is that echos what Law Professor and NYM have stated. The MLCer can't be just vilified as pure evil and the LBSer blessed as the absolute saint. No marriage is perfect and both partners bring flaws to the relationship. In my case, instead of dealing with things, we just put the issues in the attic. Soon the attic was too full. You can only kick the can down the road so long.
I used to be proud of my marriage on the fact that we didn't fight. I thought we had a great relationship because we didn't fight. Instead, I now realize we had a bad situation because we didn't fight.
I don't want to confuse the state of my marriage with her MLC. Her MLC was a crisis that was hers. Our inability to communicate due to the avoidance issues only made things worse and BD caught me completely offguard and lacking the tools to deal with it. My own Peal Harbor and I was left defenseless.
The forum was my sanctuary. It gave me tools to deal with my wife and most importantly the tools to work on myself. The past ten years have been more about my growth and change then what my MLCer has done.
My goal this year is to really look at conflict avoidance and how it plays in marriages with or without MLC.
I do wish everyone a Happy New Year and Great Topic!
Ready
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I'm pretty sure mine was fallout from his MLC. We had a few tumultuous years in the beginning of our marriage but as we matured, we calmed a lot and were generally happy. I know I have issues with control, being judgemental and emotional expression. He made comments about that several times after BD but I know I became much better as I got older. He claimed that if I had cried it POSSIBLY would have changed something. ::)
I was very self-centered when we met when I was 17 up until about 25-26. That's about the point my mindset became similar to how it is now. At the time of BD, I was much more understanding and would speak my mind when we had issues. I had only blown up once in 2015 on a vacation in France because he was trying to spend it entirely in the hotel and refused to take time off work so he stayed on his comp in the hotel bed all day. Now I know that year was the start of his depression.
From the beginning, he always wanted to be his own boss but the businesses just never survived. He hated dealing with coworkers, going into work and was an extremely jealous person. He was one of those people who would go into work meetings late on purpose to show others he was exempt from the rules. Lucky he was/is intelligent or he'd be homeless I'm sure. His brother moved back to their home country and opened his own clinic which took off and I think started xh's depression in 2015.
I remember the shift in his behavior very clearly. His mother would call and constantly talk about how well his brother was doing while talking badly of xh's accomplishments which was always strange to me considering they were much greater than his older bro, money/assetwise anyway. I know now and kinda knew then that his mother was and is a very toxic, nasty individual. If I would have known exactly how bad she was I never would have pushed for him to have a better relationship with her as they hadn't been on good terms since he came to the US in 1995. We had bought a new house in 2014 and had been doing DIY projects galore.
We traveled to California and bought mango, lychee and some other exotic fruit trees. Planted a huge garden in the yard and had tons of lemon and orange bushes blossoming on the back patio along with an assortment of rose bushes which he took care of very well. We were definitely happy. But for most of 2015 he languished on the couch, beside the vacation which I had planned thinking he needed to get out of the house. I remember he never wanted to go anywhere, would watch TV for hours and hours and then finally got the bright idea to open another store but in his home country.
That happened at the beginning of 2016 and ended up being a complete disaster and where OW came from. She replaced a stealing employee in the summer of 2016. The business continued to fail (no profit, machines constantly breaking). He decided to buy MORE machines to place in an apartment we were building (which was another big money drain) thinking he'd acquire business from hospitals, which never happened. My grandmother went on hospice and died in December and he just completely lost it. That one month between me leaving his home country to try and see my granny before she died and his returning at the end of January in 2017 changed him drastically.
He came back cold and angry. Was a completely different person fueled by rage. And now I know he had started something inappropriate with OW during that time. Their RT hadn't taken off yet as I don't think he was chatting with her while in the US (no password on his phone) but he had to go back to his HC in April and a week or two into that trip he bought her a $200 phone. I even found love songs he had sung and recorded to his phone during the same month that I guess were for her.
He admitted the last time I left that there wasn't anything wrong with us and he didn't know why he did what he did. I won't take the blame for what happened nor try to rewrite history as MLCers tend to do. I think we had some issues like any non-perfect marriage but they definitely weren't anywhere near enough to warrant how it ended.
Edited for paragraph breaks.
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I agree to very large extend with Velika's views, especially three parts below:
A marriage does not cause bipolar or schizophrenia or dementia. It does not cause MLC.
IMHO even at worst the marrital conditions were one catalyst among others. But they did not cause inability to deal with life and personal situations.
If you look around on narcissistic and psychopathic abuse forums you find nearly identical stories as to what we write about here.
Not to mention similar stories being found on support groups of partners with (long term) depression or anxiety.
Overcoming an enemy within is much harder than battling a MLCer.
Agree 110%...we are our worst enemy,, and it takes a lot of self work and courage to acknowledge this and flip the game.
Alvin
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“Is my fractured marriage a fallout of MLC, or, was it a catalyst that helped launch MLC in my spouse?
I think the question itself still allows people to escape responsibility. In both cases, you are assuming that what happened is MLC. Is it actually MLC if the marriage was the catalyst? Wouldn't you agree in such cases, the wayward spouse may not be suffering from MLC at all, and the LBS is actually in denial not only about their role in the demise of the marriage, but that their spouses aren't actually having an MLC at all?
I don't think there is enough of what doctors would call differential diagnosis being encouraged here in the forum. Is it MLC, or isn't it? Some people do come asking that question but they expect the answer to be "yes" and you are damned if you suggest that it might not be at all.
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“Is my fractured marriage a fallout of MLC, or, was it a catalyst that helped launch MLC in my spouse?
I think the question itself still allows people to escape responsibility. In both cases, you are assuming that what happened is MLC. Is it actually MLC if the marriage was the catalyst? Wouldn't you agree in such cases, the wayward spouse may not be suffering from MLC at all, and the LBS is actually in denial not only about their role in the demise of the marriage, but that their spouses aren't actually having an MLC at all?
I don't think there is enough of what doctors would call differential diagnosis being encouraged here in the forum. Is it MLC, or isn't it? Some people do come asking that question but they expect the answer to be "yes" and you are damned if you suggest that it might not be at all.
I sort of agree, but am not sure how to do this in a meaningful way, or what the implication would be for an LBS who is either attempting to recover from bomb drop or hoping their spouse will recover and return home.
I asked this question early on (I think everyone does) and was told the difference is that in MLC the personality change is dramatic. I.e. it is not just your same spouse, however flawed, suddenly wanting a divorce.
I think even if the personality change is shocking and dramatic, however, there can be a lot of lead up to bomb drop that we aren’t aware of. Or, we notice our spouse seems distant or tense but attribute it to other causes.
I know there are physical symtoms like shark eyes, flat expression, stiff gait, that many report. I saw them myself. But I’m not sure what other telltale symptoms are that this is conclusively a MLC over just a divorce.
If someone’s spouse treated them badly enough to fit the description of MLC, but does not have MLC, then I think under no circumstance should they attempt to wait this out. Having said that, I also beleive that if someone truly has MLC, I would be very cautious to advise them to wait it out either.
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This is a great thread ! Ready I was/am very conflict avoidant my wife as well. I am working on this and I do believe I have improved greatly and will continue to work on this going forward as I see what problems can arise from the lack of confidence. Ready I would love to help with your study if you need feedback from a confessed conflict avoider.
When I first came here as the title of my post States is it MLC or exit affair. I was looking for answers. I do believe I have found those answers and I am completely confident that she is having a MLC. The death of her father , the then erratic behavior and total and complete lack of any empathy only confirm my thoughts on this.
NYM I know you challenged me and my sitch on wether it is MLC related. I would only applaud you on that as I am always looking for discerning opinions just to make sure my hypothesis is correct or not. It did trigger me but that is my problem and nothing you did.
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That is tough to say because apparently my husband never communicated when he disagreed or wanted to do things a different way. The deployment is what changed the relationship from good to bad. He stopped letting me in no matter how hard I tried. In time that created larger and larger issues, but technically his MLC probably started when he broke in Afghanistan. He also has ptsd.
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My H also told me that he has PTSD, and that was what was going on when he started into the tunnel...
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Interesting, sea...
But can anyone actually self-diagnose PTSD? Might he just believe that he has that?
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He had decided to go to an IC because he wasn't sleeping, on his phone all the time, stomach pains, not interacting with family. Suspected PTSD and he said his IC agreed.
IDK if it was just depression/MLC or if it was truly PTSD.
He wouldn't share with me after that point.
I only thought it was odd because his deployment had ended over 10 years prior.
IDK that much if you can have PTSD occur that late, but I didn't question because I had no say...
Sea
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Aww Sea! I guess were in it together! Mego, mine is not self diagnosed either.
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Sea
I think PTSD can last indefinitely.
Also - the IT is capable of diagnosing stuff. Mine diagnosed bipolar (or at least told my doc, and she actually “diagnosed” it.)
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“Is my fractured marriage a fallout of MLC, or, was it a catalyst that helped launch MLC in my spouse?
I asked this all the time. My conclusion is that the fracture was caused in the pre BD wind up, the part where he checked out and didn't tell me. I even told him, "I feel like I'm in this marriage alone, and no matter what I do, it isn't right. What is it you need from me?" And he gas lighted me and said he was totally engaged in the marriage and there was nothing I could do better.
Was he lying? Maybe. He later told me he was lying and that he really had checked out. But was that due to MLC ? Or did he just check out and forget to tell me because he didn't want to be married to me? Who can know since he continually lied and changed his stories.
The question I like to work with is "Had I known he had checked out all those years prior to BD, would I have been the one to walk away? Why or why not?" And knowing what the behavior looks like (now), would I ever tolerate it again?
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Off Road -
That's a good way to look at it -- I think we've all learned so much and are probably much less tolerant of the behaviors we might have once tolerated.
I was thinking about Acorn's question in bed this morning...
“Is my fractured marriage a fallout of MLC, or, was it a catalyst that helped launch MLC in my spouse?
Does it really matter?...
Just one more thing to worry about??
Because -- if we've done the work, on ourselves, then that would help make our future relationships stronger, either way.
Maybe looking at the cause/effect only allows us focus on the wrong things (our H and/our marriage)?
As it's been said before - it's not about the MLC or our H - it's about how we take this opportunity to grow and change...
It takes two in a marriage, and if those two are not working together, regardless of the reason, it can't be a healthy relationship.
Does that make sense?
Sea
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I was diagnosed with PTSD by my therapist.
There are a host of things that may have caused it, although BD certainly didn’t help (?!)
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Does it really matter?...
Just one more thing to worry about??
Because -- if we've done the work, on ourselves, then that would help make our future relationships stronger, either way.
If we weren't the cause of the MLC, then why should we have to "do the work on ourselves"?
Am I the only one that sees the "work on yourself" mantra as one that encourages people to blame themselves and find fault with oneself? I see "working on yourself" as just one more thing to worry about that isn't necessarily valid.
As I understood Acorn's original post, she is concerned about people who are making decisions about their future based on the assumption their spouses are the cause of the marital breakdown, when they may actually be the cause themselves. In that case, if someone is standing expecting their spouse to come back, they may be wasting their time.
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No I agree....I’ll work on myself if I want to, not because I was the cause of his MLC.
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NYM - I believe that ALL of us are imperfect; that no marriage is perfect.
I think anyone can look within themselves and find things that need improvement; regardless of their martial status, MLC or not.
If not, then that's a concern -- to me.
I am proud of myself; I think that I love with honesty and sincerity, BUT - I am not perfect, nor was I the perfect wife.
Hope this explains my post.
You may not agree, but sometimes we need to agree to disagree.
Sea
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Offroad-Yes, those years before bd where they build a high wall is for sure when our troubles seem to start. He got back from Afghanistan and just never let me back in. I eventually became resentful because he left all responsibility to me, and did nothing to get better from his trauma.
Sea-I agree. I have grown so much since bd and our world is shattered after what they do to us, so we have to rebuild ourselves. Regardless of who we were prior to bd.
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Great topic and many of you already posted some very valid points.
To simplify, IMO
As we are human, no marriage is perfect.
“Mirror work” is a journey, not a destination.
If a spouse is unhappy, MLC or not, that doesn’t make lying, cheating, abuse, etc., okay.
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There's something rather odd about extolling one's flaws rather than one's virtues. I think Acorn may have been concerned about people not seeing their own flaws contributing to the downfall of their marriage but I think actually the cult of mirror work encourages negative thoughts about oneself and that can twist one's perceptions too.
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There's something rather odd about extolling one's flaws rather than one's virtues. I think Acorn may have been concerned about people not seeing their own flaws contributing to the downfall of their marriage but I think actually the cult of mirror work encourages negative thoughts about oneself and that can twist one's perceptions too.
I believe I understand your point, especially regarding this particular question, but for me "mirror work" also allowed me to see the good things about myself that I dismissed as "that's just what you do." I found that a lot of who I am and what I do is not at all like what some others do. There are a lot of truly selfish people out there. That's not me. In my reflection on that, I saw some flaws (I need to sometimes be selfish) and some virtues (I don't only consider myself in most situations).
Why would "mirror work" have a connotation of all bad?
ETA: Even this question, which I'm sure most of us asked ourselves at some point, allows us to look at it and say "I could have done these things better, and maybe had no way of knowing it, but these other things I did great," or even " Who knew my sarcasm was a problem for my spouse? Other people appreciate it. What can I glean from this?"
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Yes, I think mirror-work definitely has negative connotations. Who really is going to discuss how awesome they are in the midst of trying to save their marriage?
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Hello,
Am I the only one that sees the "work on yourself" mantra as one that encourages people to blame themselves and find fault with oneself? I see "working on yourself" as just one more thing to worry about that isn't necessarily valid.
There is a lot to respond to in the above quote that does distract from the thread, but I feel needs to be addressed. First of all, we should always be looking at a way to better ourselves- we should always be in a cycle of continuous improvement. It becomes more important as we deal with MLC and bomb drop. Our first reaction is to try and fix the marriage or our spouse and this leads to either monster or the spouse running away as our actions create a "fight or flight" response. Our clumsy attempts to gain control over something we can't control only leads to more despair and loss of self-esteem as we begin to feel that we have lost control not only our marriage, but our entire life.
Self focus and working on improving ourselves, helps us drop the rope and direct energy and action to something that we do control-ourselves.
I see the need for self improvement to as it helps the LBSer to see their full potential and to find a reason to take a step forward in life. This is especially important for the LBSer after bomb drop when everything loses meaning and we are struggling to focus on anything except our spouse. Through self improvement, the LBSer assess his/her strengths and weaknesses. For some, this is necessary for survival. Most of all this process of self assessment and helps us to figure out where we stand in life.
I could not quit during my wife's MLC, I still had to get up and go to work, I still had to shop for the kids, cook and clean the house, and take the kids to and from school. With the district in the great recession, the budget was tight as well. I took a 15% pay cut and that only made matters worse. To compensate, I developed a network of friends to help me with the kids, taught myself how to fix the car, I learned how to make household repairs, and a lot of cooking on a budget.
As I focused on myself, I realized that one way or the other, I was not only going to survive, I was going to thrive. I did have more setbacks and to be fair, I left the forum for five years. Throughout that time, I still focused on myself and dealt with the divorce. All during that time, I focused on me and what I could do for me and my family.
So, yes, I do see self-improvement as a integral part to standing and surviving MLC.
Who really is going to discuss how awesome they are in the midst of trying to save their marriage?
Mirror work is part of building a better you so that the spouse realizes that you are not a clingy, miserable, mess. Who wants to reconcile or go back to that?
Just my opinion,
((((Ready))))
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As I understood Acorn's original post, she is concerned about people who are making decisions about their future based on the assumption their spouses are the cause of the marital breakdown, when they may actually be the cause themselves. In that case, if someone is standing expecting their spouse to come back, they may be wasting their time.
I don't believe the LBS is the cause of the marital breakdown in the midst of MLC. The MLC was the cause of the marital breakdown,, the affair,, and replay, etc. That was coming no matter how perfect a spouse could be.
However, when the mlc spouse tries to come back, he/she may recoil at a spouse that has not moved in the least since the mlc hit. Not that the spouse caused anything or is bad, but to see the same spouse at the end as was there in the beginning of the mlc ...just might be a trip down memory lane they don't really want. Again, not because the spouse was bad back then in the early mlc days, but because a spouse that hasn't changed may be a bit reminiscent of the days when all was turmoil and confusion in their minds and the association creates anxiety. They have changed through their MLC and for a positive dynamic to emerge after MLC, the spouse has to change as well. jmo. And no guarantee that the new dynamic that emerges between mlc spouse and lbs spouse will be one that supports reconciliation.
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I was trying to post the message below, but basically feels similar to what Ready To Fix posted:
I don't agree that mirror-work gives negative connotations - maybe we're using it in the wrong context.
I think mirror-work is just that - looking at oneself in the mirror and deciding what "looks" good and what could be changed to "look" better.
It's looking inside oneself for the good and the bad.
Of course, we don't need to work on the good, because it's something we want to keep.
Perhaps we need to hone it, or perfect it, but basically not the nitty-gritty get down-dirty changes that we need to make for those issues that we don't like reflecting back at us.
When YOU look in the mirror... i hope you like what YOU see.
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I was trying to post the message below, but basically feels similar to what Ready To Fix posted:
I don't agree that mirror-work gives negative connotations - maybe we're using it in the wrong context.
I think mirror-work is just that - looking at oneself in the mirror and deciding what "looks" good and what could be changed to "look" better.
It's looking inside oneself for the good and the bad.
Of course, we don't need to work on the good, because it's something we want to keep.
Perhaps we need to hone it, or perfect it, but basically not the nitty-gritty get down-dirty changes that we need to make for those issues that we don't like reflecting back at us.
When YOU look in the mirror... i hope you like what YOU see.
It's because in the English language it is usually not meant in a supportive and gentle way. "Self-reflection" is good advice once someone is not in an acutely traumatized state.
Most people are in an acutely traumatized state because they have often had their entire self and life destroyed by someone they loved and trusted, often with no empathy. That person is often literally blaming them, saying that their behavior is their fault.
To tell someone in this state to do "mirror work" is, in my opinion, deeply inappropriate and coopting the language and ambiguous messaging of abuse. People here come at all stages of recovery. I think there is no way to be too careful when it comes to general instructions and language.
There is much kinder language to use. I don't agree with the way you end your post. Some people on here are not dealing with abuse or mistreatment for the first time. They have often taken on other people's mistreatment as somehow reflective of them, not because they are weak but as a way to preserve a loving, trusting aspect of themselves. Only someone with a lot of sensitivity and awareness and genuine compassion can help them out of this.
Tough love is okay when there is a relationship of trust, goodwill, caring, and a true relationship where both people are known well to each other. It's not appropriate absent this.
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Mirror work for me.......was this beautiful and precious gift. I initially was resentful of the idea that I had “work” to do. But the work was to recognize my own wrong beliefs......and in that was a lot of freedom. Freedom from blaming myself for someone else’s choices, freedom from having to effect or control the outcome, freedom to just focus on and heal me, freedom to emotionally detach, freedom to put me first, freedom to not own other peoples outcomes, or emotions or actions. I learned how to effectively communicate, how to have boundaries to protect me, to assert myself, to ask for what I wanted and needed. It increased my empathy and my capacity to see the hurt in others and not feel so alone. It helped me to be a better parent, better sister and better friend. It’s allowing me to transform my friendships in a way that lets me connect with people and feel heard and loved and understood. It helped me to find what I truly want and gave me language and skills and self worth enough to ask for it.....and to give it to myself.
I think if the purpose of the mirror work is to save your marriage then it’s a waste unless and until you restore the marriage.
If the purpose of the mirror work is to save yourself......then that time and effort can never be wasted.
Just my 2 cents
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Is my fractured marriage a fallout of MLC, or, was it a catalyst that helped launch MLC in my spouse?
This was a really uncomfortable question for me and I bridled at it a bit tbh.
So I decided to use the old rule of 3 lol to figure out why it felt so uncomfortable.
I think it is a question that is at the root of many of the things we LBS struggle with. I think it also is underpinned by a bunch of other things we may or may not individually believe about our m, our spouse, ourselves, MLC etc. Things that as I think Anon said most of us chewed on for a very long time, often fruitlessly. And the word 'catalyst' implies some responsibility if not even some fault perhaps.
Chicken and egg. Cause and effect. My perception vs someone else's perception.
And there is a tension in looking at an 'abnormal' situation through a rational 'normal' lens maybe, so a possibility of gaslighting myself about it and/or denying realities.
As well as a situation where I was gaslighted and emotionally abused by someone I trusted so the risk of a skewed sense of responsibility. Or a normal traumatic response that perhaps if i caused something I can change or stop it happening.
Complicated.
My most honest answer is that I don't entirely know.
My spouse fractured our m by withdrawing from it and then broke our m bc he was not happy with it.
I don't know what caused his unhappiness or why destroying our relationship was the answer bc he didn't say. So I don't know from his POV whether it was a cause or an effect, or if it was a catalyst to his crisis. Even assuming that it was an MLC type crisis is not a proven fact. Perhaps it was as simple as him preferring ow so needing to end our m in order to be with her, that I was in denial in seeing her as a symptom of a crisis and she is indeed his real and better matched second love. Sucks but Idk.
But I think rationally from his POV it was part of the context at least bc of the choices he made.
My h was evidently unhappy and evidently believed that ending our m would make him happier.
I don't even know if that belief has turned out to be true.
What I think I can know? I think a m can be fractured unilaterally. I think we shared the responsibility for our m until my h decided to withdraw, stop talking to me and have an affair. These actions broke our m and they were not my actions and I had no control over them. Chicken or egg? Idk. But even now I see nothing in our m or in my behaviour that created a fractured m until my h chose to break it. By the time I knew he was unhappy it was already irreparable. And nothing in our m, me or my behaviour in our m warranted the cruelty, deceit or abuse with which I was treated. That I do know.
So it is quite possible it seems to me that my h had/has one perspective and I have another.
And they are irreconcilable.
I do think our m, and our life, were under pressure from a tough set of life events that affected both of us, that's true. And I don't think our marriage was perfect bc neither of us were perfect. My h was always given to conflict avoidance, procrastination and had some unresolved FOO stuff, true too. I was not controlling or a super-fixer but over time bc I saw him as more fragile emotionally I think I did mind read and did not always put myself as an equal first, true too. I was naive and perhaps arrogant about his FOO damage or how much he valued me and our m, true too. And much as I respected a lot about him - qualities that completely disappeared post BD - a part of me did not respect what I saw as a kind of neediness in him, true too. And it was very hard to respect the post BD version bc to be frank he became a pretty lousy kind of human being. And self-evidently our beliefs about m, love, friendship, respect, integrity and family were no longer the same. But I did not imagine who my h was or how he behaved for many years. The unknown I suppose is which version is the more 'real' one and I don't know that either.
So was our m fractured before my h decided to withdraw from it and then destroy it?
From my POV, no it was not but it was under pressure from life events. From what I guess was his, probably yes. But I honestly can't know his POV bc he decided not to share it with me then or since. The Gottmann list of the Four Apocalyptic killer apps of a marriage - Criticism, Contempt, Defensiveness and Stonewalling? My h brought all four into our m; i perhaps added Defensiveness post BD to be fair. My best sense with hindsight is that my m fractured bc my h decided to fracture it. He did so bc he was unhappy. I don't know what caused his unhappiness bc he did not say. My interpretation of events is that he fractured in some way before our m did, but I could be wrong and he may see it quite differently.
So what is the true answer to the question? I don't know if the answer needs to include both people in the marriage. I do know that, hard as I have looked, I have never been able to see a bad marriage before it took a sudden left turn or any big lessons to learn from how I loved my h or treated him in our m that would cause me to do anything significantly different in a new relationship. My POV and that of others who knew us well was that it was a strong loving pretty healthy relationship until my h decided it wasn't. He changed and I did not.
The 'mirror work' idea can be a double-edged sword I think, causing us sometimes to inadvertently think that if we change x, our spouses attitude will change. To believe two dissonant things....that our spouse had an internal crisis we did not cause and that our behaviour as a spouse caused it. I don't believe that in my situation tbh. My h decided that our m was worthless and that I deserved to be treated the way he treated me bc that was how he saw it. I don't know why but I am quite sure that neither me or our m deserved that. If the roles had been reversed, I would have been grateful to be treated in the way I treated my then h for the first 18 months or so and I simply can't conceive of treating him as cruelly as he treated me. I wouldn't treat a stranger that way tbh bc i never lost my sense of human empathy or felt a need to destroy someone else to make myself happy. My h evidently did and I accept no responsibility for that at all and I do see it as a sign of a damaged person.
My 'mirror work' was less about my m tbh and more about navigating my way through grief, trauma and incomprehensible abuse. The changes I needed to make were about surviving that with my sanity and spirit intact rather than finding unaddressed pre-BD issues or unresolved FOO stuff of my own. The way my h behaved was undoubtedly part of a catalyst for my own crisis for sure....but, even with a rigorous eye, I honestly can't see anything in me or our relationship that was a catalyst to whatever his crisis was. But I accept that it was a context and I accept that my h was unhappy and I did not know. But it doesn't feel right to take responsibility for things I did not know when someone else did not talk....I would have had to be a champion mind reader for that lol. And I would have to see myself as some kind of super responsible ultimate fixer :) And my experience was that whatever the cause was, nothing I said or did or did not do made any difference at all.
So, on balance, I think my m was not perfect and I think it fractured bc my h decided to fracture and then destroy it. I assume bc he was unhappy and I assume bc he believed that me/our m was the cause of his unhappiness. Was he right and/or thinking in a 'temporarily' skewed way bc he was in crisis? Idk. My unhappiness came largely as an effect of his choices and behaviour towards me. That was 'right' as my POV based on my experience and (albeit a long road) a temporary one too I suppose.
The question behind the question I guess is why it matters to me or not. What I can usefully do with any answer I can come up with. My m is over, it ended in a traumatic and incomprehensible way, my h is long gone, remarried (so I guess does not believe that m per se was the problem, just being married to me lol) and there is nothing left between us to do anything useful with. As Nah's book title says, He Never Said A Word. :)....so my answer to the question is also a function of where I stand (if you will pardon the pun!). All I can use the question for is to find a way to explain my story that I can make some kind of peace with. I think if I had a live in MLCer or was still under attack from one or still hoping for some kind of repair to our relationship, I might answer the question differently or my answer might matter in a different way.
Is my fractured marriage a fallout of MLC, or, was it a catalyst that helped launch MLC in my spouse?
I don't know
But I do know that my m was fractured and then destroyed bc my h chose to fracture it by withdrawing and then destroy it by having an affair and treating me with contempt and indifference as a human being.
And that it is over and irreparable and I may never know the two part truth of why.
Finding a way to accept that - with all it implied - was my mirror work and far from easy.
And accepting too that my h no longer brought anything good or healthy that I should want in my life regardless of the relationship I'd had with him before or my feelings about him. Also not easy but healthy, and why Standing made no sense to me by 2017 bc part of my 'mirror work' was that I deserved better and could not influence him to behave better so NC and turning away was my only sane choice.
What I DO know is that my m ended in a horrible WTF way bc my h chose to do it that way, that he is a vanished stranger now and his happiness is simply no longer my business. And that I am not yet happy in my current life, although I am not unhappy, and I would like to feel happy and at ease again as I used to do before life blew up. And that the worst is done and all in the rear view mirror now.
I'd be quite interested, Acorn, given your perspective and your situation, how you would answer the question yourself now? What prompted you to pose the question? Or indeed if your h has ever shared his answer with you as part of your shared repair work?
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I had the opportunity to ask my husband this question. It was difficult for me to do that as it is highly uncomfortable, emotionally risky and has been one of the unrelenting issues for me in attempting to reconnect . I can be highly reactive to feeling any sort of "blame". It has calmed down over the years but is not gone and there is nothing that will trigger me into fight or flight faster than perceiving that I or my marriage was to blame for his choices and actions. I can "feel it in my body" anytime it comes to the surface. That alone is an indication that I still having healing work to do.
My husband came home from seeing a counsellor weeks after BD is 2014. I had been waiting for him . It was a beautiful hot summer evening , I had lit candles on the deck and was all pampered with a silk nightie and anticipating something "different" ...maybe my old husband would show up. He was so arrogant , so "sure of himself" , so cruel and unreachable. We chatted and he looked at me with such contempt and said " Just so you know, I have been trying to leave you for many years . Finally have had enough and I am done with all this sh$t". If I had a way to describe the utter shock..it was like I was hit by lightening and he was the bolt-thrower. I will never forget the physical pins and needles all over my body, the world just folding in on me and inability to even utter a word. I actually remember touching the table to see if I could feel it. Was I awake?. It was a life changing sentence ...I cannot express the damage that string of words created. I do believe it was the moment of PTSD rooting in my heart. I had NO idea . He went on the "blame" me for having a "child centered marriage " and that I was never a good wife or partner, that I controlled his life, that he was my "meal ticket" and that I could NEVER love him the way he needed to be loved. He went on to tell me he was a "lone wolf" and the time to" learn to live alone " was long overdue and he was looking at apartments etc. Sex with me was about "duty-sex" ..not desire sex . It escalated and he shoved the table into me . When I went to leave ….he grabbed me and pushed me against the side of the deck and held me there. He told me he never loved me ...ever , and I needed to face the fact that I am an impossible "never happy" b!tc# that no man would want . He was shaking with rage. I had spit all over my glasses . I wondered if the neighbour would call the police. In a 30 year marriage, he had never ever touched me in anger , NEVER touched any of his daughters and never displayed any kind of anger ...period. in that short exchange he did more damage than I will ever be able to express ...my history, my trust, my instincts , my marriage , all of it was destroyed. He was a stay at home monster MLC'er for 6 months . He blamed , raged and threatened until I threw him out . He then blamed me for that .." you threw me out when I was most vulnerable". He is a big guy over 6 foot , 220 lbs . I did not need any army to throw him out ...he ran like a rabbit in under 10 minutes . He wanted to leave but wanted to blame me ...so he did. All of this, months of abuse and not 1 clue he was actually having an affair. Blame cut a deep bleeding wound in me.
To be honest, I had always been sensitive to what must be "my fault", so it hit a place that was already sensitive to hurt. I had taken on a role that many mothers do. Any of my daughters failed at something, were inappropriate, having problems...well, it must be because I am a shi$$y mother. And there is 5 of them in this "child-centered marriage", so the self-imposed burden was heavy at times. I have struggled with this many times. Society seems to deem women responsible for family dynamics, relationships and success of marriages...while men are providers, financial responsibilities etc. So I also blamed myself for what appeared to be a failed marriage ...for the 2nd time. I already had a pre-existing issue with feeling blamed .
Is my fractured marriage a fallout of MLC, or, was it a catalyst that helped launch MLC in my spouse?
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We talked at length about this and as I said ..risky to bring this up. It was likely one of the best conversations I have had with him in a very long time. Having said that, I need to acknowledge something that happens to me ( and him I think) that make conversations risky . Courage. I have a highly toned extremely sensitive "spidey-sense " as many anxious-pursuers have . I am susceptible to react to hidden-undercurrents that I am not in control of and often to do know what I am reacting to at the time ( I have learned what they are now...for the most part). I can react to a change in his posture ( if he moves in the chair in a way that looks like he is leaving) it hits some uncomfortable place of abandonment. He is leaving. Or, I can feel this as control..."you do not get to decide when conversations are over!". If he yawns..I can feel this as "hear we go again.. or, it was no big deal, everyone has affairs". If he even looks at the TV channel changer...there will be a reaction inside of me. If he takes too long to respond? I feel that as avoidance or that he is lying. All these subtle undercurrents can alter conversations drastically ...and not in a good way. I must keep my voice almost monotone ..otherwise he reacts to feeling "attacked" and shuts down . I can not put anything down "roughly" ...like close the computer and he sees it as "slamming"...and reacts to what he perceives as anger. Its a the residue of PTSD, hidden places that still hurt ...it is horribly difficult to get thru some conversations.
Regardless...it takes courage to talk sometimes. We do not want to "poke the PTSD", that we BOTH have. He does not believe "for a second" that our marriage was a catalyst or the reason for his MLC. Not for one second...and he if very adamant. He says he has learned a lot in therapy as far as what happened to him internally, emotionally and mentally ...and none of it was about our marriage...or me. If he had have been a single man ..this still would have happened. If he had an absolutely perfect marriage , this still would have happened. He says "he has been taught" in therapy all about the repercussions of his FOO issues and had they played out in his crisis at the age of 55. These issues were always there...long before he ever met me. He was destined to "crash and burn" and is not sure what ( if anything) could have prevented that . He believed "at the time" that everything I said to him had " 2 meanings". He spun every single word I said in to a "negative" inside his head and that I was trying to "trick and manipulate " him into doing everything my way. It was about control ...when he was out of control. It was about false perceptions, chronic negatives from me, his boss, his co-workers ..even his daughters. It was about suppressed rage from decades of abuse as a child floating to the top of his life to be dealt with and no amount of work, money, avoidance ...would make them lay dormant any longer. It was his time to reconcile his pain. He believes we had a good marriage...some troubles along the way but nothing that ever ever would have catapulted him into a deep identity crisis ..the map for that had been brewing all his life. He believes he should have been hospitalized as mentally he was in "critical condition" and had no idea what was happening to him. In short... he does not believe ( and will never be convinced) that the marriage had much to do at all with his mental and emotional health at the time. And...he is very very sorry . It was about him, not about me or about our marriage.
I also know to keep conversations short. I need to show appreciation when he sticks with hard conversations and get on with the day. Conversations about the OW and what she meant are very difficult and painful , but they seldom happen . There is not much left to say about her and her part in the disaster. Conversations are difficult and I do believe that there always will be reminders of what happened . Always.
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He does not believe "for a second" that our marriage was a catalyst or the reason for his MLC. Not for one second...and he if very adamant. He says he has learned a lot in therapy as far as what happened to him internally, emotionally and mentally ...and none of it was about our marriage...or me. If he had have been a single man ..this still would have happened. If he had an absolutely perfect marriage , this still would have happened. He says "he has been taught" in therapy all about the repercussions of his FOO issues and had they played out in his crisis at the age of 55. These issues were always there...long before he ever met me. He was destined to "crash and burn" and is not sure what ( if anything) could have prevented that . He believed "at the time" that everything I said to him had " 2 meanings". He spun every single word I said in to a "negative" inside his head and that I was trying to "trick and manipulate " him into doing everything my way. It was about control ...when he was out of control. It was about false perceptions, chronic negatives from me, his boss, his co-workers ..even his daughters. It was about suppressed rage from decades of abuse as a child floating to the top of his life to be dealt with and no amount of work, money, avoidance ...would make them lay dormant any longer. It was his time to reconcile his pain. He believes we had a good marriage...some troubles along the way but nothing that ever ever would have catapulted him into a deep identity crisis ..the map for that had been brewing all his life. He believes he should have been hospitalized as mentally he was in "critical condition" and had no idea what was happening to him. In short... he does not believe ( and will never be convinced) that the marriage had much to do at all with his mental and emotional health at the time. And...he is very very sorry . It was about him, not about me or about our marriage.
Thank you barbiedoll for having the courage to bring this up with him and for sharing this with us.
For days I have been reading and thinking about this thread and to be honest, I don't like it. Even the suggestion that the LBSer is at fault for their crisis turns my stomach. Every marriage has some "problems" but I would say that the majority of marriages pre BD did not have such severe problems to warrant the end of decades of a good marriage and family life. That we did not cause them to have an affair or develop the various addictions which they have.
10 years after BD, we were together as a family for a few days over Christmas. He is still in crisis, he is still running.
On the premise of this thread, is it something I have done in the last 10 years that continues to contribute to his crisis? I have had limited contact with him, we have not even lived in the same country, 9 years after BD he divorced me, totally out of the blue.
Sure, we can look back on our marriages, we all do it but I stand by the "theory" that MLC is not about the spouse and not about the marriage and the implication that somehow we are also at fault may be causing some LBSers to rewrite the history of their story, that somehow they are to blame for this.
Everything barbie's husband says resonates especially this:
These issues were always there...long before he ever met me.
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Thank you, Barbie, for having the courage to have that conversation and share it here. I hope that this thread served a purpose for you (and your h) in fostering that conversation.
And xyzcf, your logic about their ongoing crisis and behaviour long after we are absent from their lives is a useful reminder of reality too.
For those of us with a vanisher, we never get to have these conversations usually or indeed to see much of their behaviour afterwards. Every situation is a sample of one of course and older timers learn to be cautious about their own assumptions or denial. So I honestly don't know if my xh would feel or say the same now or years later. But he has followed some other bits of the crazy script and has FOO ahoy so I suppose it must be possible that what you describe is as true in my situation as it was in yours, Barbie. Or in others reported here from further down the line. Accepting that possibility does help those of us who never got to have that conversation perhaps even if it does not change our situation. It would be an awful extra burden to believe that I caused this horror in any way or felt responsible for the abuse I received; whatever happened to my h and marriage just never felt like something in my control or influence really. Nothing I did made any difference to his thoughts, feelings or actions tbh; I do know that and that was perhaps one of the most shocking things about it.
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Why is it, does anyone think, that when asked if our marriage could be a catalyst for MLC, A)some people think someone is trying to blame the LBS for the marriage issues ("nothing I could have done" ) or B) That it was a "cause" rather than just being something that increases the reaction (ie, the mlcer feels "stuck" or trapped, 100%on the mlcer )
Is it a wording thing? Is it maybe a personality thing?
ETA: I ask because having chewed on this for a time previously, there was zero trigger, but I see it was very triggering for others. A catalyst is not a cause. It's a contributing factor, and can contribute in ways that are both helpful and/or harmful. I'd like to understand why the question seems to be bothersome .
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I've been wondering the same thing...
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Why is it, does anyone think, that when asked if our marriage could be a catalyst for MLC, A)some people think someone is trying to blame the LBS for the marriage issues ("nothing I could have done" ) or B) That it was a "cause" rather than just being something that increases the reaction (ie, the mlcer feels "stuck" or trapped, 100%on the mlcer )
Is it a wording thing? Is it maybe a personality thing?
ETA: I ask because having chewed on this for a time previously, there was zero trigger, but I see it was very triggering for others. A catalyst is not a cause. It's a contributing factor, and can contribute in ways that are both helpful and/or harmful. I'd like to understand why the question seems to be bothersome .
I suppose I interpreted catalyst as something that sets off a chain of events...so was the fractured marriage (that I didn't fracture imho) unbeknownst to me something that set off my h's crisis....and as the 'crisis' wasn't very nice from my POV it is hard to see it as helpful lol. Idk it just felt like a tails I lose, heads I lose question maybe? The trigger for me about it was that I simply can't know so it was a bit of a gaslighting risk. Having said that, it is quite possible that the m was a contextual factor for my xh and indeed that he saw/sees it as a catalyst....I just don't feel like owning responsibility for things I didn't know and things he never said. Which with a vanisher is maybe a trigger too if that makes sense?
Maybe it is the place where my residual anger lies? It just does not make sense to me to see my m as I experienced it as a catalyst for receiving death threats or being ghosted. My m was pretty normal: my h's behaviour was not. So it makes more sense to me to accept that the WTF stuff came from his head not my m if that makes sense...while accepting that he evidently saw it differently and presumably felt I deserved to die bc our m was so awful and/or that would make him happy. ::)....the abuse is a trigger for me and feeling challenged to take responsibility for even partly creating the situation that created that abuse just feels wrong. Jmo.
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Thank you, Treasur. I can see that point of view. I often wonder if the marriage kept the mlc at bay for longer than if they had not been married. That maybe the reason the BD was so abrupt was because we really are good people, and the marriage helped keep them sane, until nothing could help any longer and they just imploded. In that case, the marriage could be the catalyst for the mlcer's abrupt descent to Hell as opposed to a slow slide.
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Thank you, Treasur. I can see that point of view. I often wonder if the marriage kept the mlc at bay for longer than if they had not been married. That maybe the reason the BD was so abrupt was because we really are good people, and the marriage helped keep them sane, until nothing could help any longer and they just imploded. In that case, the marriage could be the catalyst for the abrupt descent to Hell as opposed to a slow slide.
Funnily enough, OR, quite early on a friend who knew my xh and his FOO history well said that it perhaps was a testament to the good of our relationship that he did not implode before, that she'd always been amazed at how well he had survived his early life but now thought perhaps he was always an unexploded bomb on a timer. And an IC said in her opinion that my h had seen me as a kind of psychological scaffolding subconsciously and part of his rage was that he felt let down that the scaffolding had failed to keep his demons at bay ad infinitum. Like other LBS, it probably wasn't a coincidence that the year running up to BD I was a bit busy watching my father slowly die so my h was not my first priority....
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Why is it, does anyone think, that when asked if our marriage could be a catalyst for MLC, A)some people think someone is trying to blame the LBS for the marriage issues ("nothing I could have done" ) or B) That it was a "cause" rather than just being something that increases the reaction (ie, the mlcer feels "stuck" or trapped, 100%on the mlcer )
Is it a wording thing? Is it maybe a personality thing?
ETA: I ask because having chewed on this for a time previously, there was zero trigger, but I see it was very triggering for others. A catalyst is not a cause. It's a contributing factor, and can contribute in ways that are both helpful and/or harmful. I'd like to understand why the question seems to be bothersome .
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Hmmmm… This is good. This challenges me (yet again) to think. It was very triggering for me. I reacted as if there was an implied "blame" . As I have stated , it has been a repeated, horrible and difficult topic in our attempts to re-connect. Number 1 problem is me hearing ANY kind of blame. As Treasure says ." I don't feel like owning responsibility for things I never knew and things he never said". Neither do I , in fact, I refuse . So I believe that perhaps we both heard "blame'. I know that I have been told ( MANY times ...by 2 therapists ..) that I am hearing blame when in fact, they heard no blame. I started to feel like the therapist was gaslighting me. So, it is possible , that it is "just me" ( as hard as that is to accept) . They call it "hearing thru a wound" . Maybe I just did that again. Did I ?
an event or person that causes great change:
The high suicide rate acted as a catalyst for change in the prison system / something that causes an important event to happen
Maybe it taps into a bank of injustice anger . Because I have some of that ...true, I do. Perhaps I have a poor understanding of the word "catalyst". I see the word "caused" in the definition , and to me that implies blame. Maybe I am wrong and this is another example of hearing something different than was said. (?) .
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Perhaps I have a poor understanding of the word "catalyst". I see the word "caused" in the definition , and to me that implies blame. Maybe I am wrong and this is another example of hearing something different than was said. (?) .
Yeah, me too. That's what I hear when I see the question. A catalyst is something that precipitates something else, which would imply that marriage problems would cause an MLC, which to me as an LBS makes me feel like I would share the "blame" for the MLC.
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Interesting thread.
From my perspective, the question is not about blame as in who broke the vase. That's old ground, unfertile and unproductive. The vase is broken. The value is in answering how to not continue breaking vases.
No one is saying the lbs or the marriage is the direct cause of the mlc.
But could the marriage have been a catalyst in the bigger picture?
It depends on how one defines catalyst. I look at it as a forest fire. Some irresponsible immature camper started a blaze roasting Marshmallows. The fire smoldered for a time, then crept to my shed and the can of gasoline for my mower exploded and added fuel to the fire. The same camper was not needed to add to the fire over and over as time passed. It grew on its own. (That's why one can't tie the actions of a MLCer years later as evidence or not of a causal at fault connection. ) (Lack of one catalyst after the fire begins doesn't magically put the fire back into the put or put the MLC genie back into the bottle)
That doesn't mean my poorly stored gasoline played no part. It doesn't mean I am to blame for the original fire. But I do hold some responsibility for degree of my shed burning down just as I took pride and responsibility for managing and fixing during my marriage. An adult owns the good and the bad.
As related to mlc,
The fire was already burning inside the MLCer. But as his partner, I was also flammable and stored unsafely because of my own issues. So I played a part after all I was not a passive participant in my marriage like the couch or ottoman.
I see the question of catalyst as one that encourages healing and growth through the examination of the dynamics of the marriage. Not blame. Blame is looking backward while trying to walk forward and being surprised when you run into a wall.
To me it doesn't make sense to suggest that the dynamics of the marriage had nothing to do with the end result. Dynamics are made by the two parties. If one or both are broken, have latent foo issues, are codependent, are conflict avoidant, have a tendency toward depression, have a tendency toward control or fixing issues, have not grown up, have not individuated, those things all impact the dynamics of a relationship, before, during and after the mlc. Could the Marshmallow fire have grown without my mower gas? Yes, but my shed didn't have to explode but for my poorly stored mower gasoline.
Another example:
Many therapists state it's impossible to have a healthy relationship with someone who is conflict avoidant, and more so when both parties are conflict avoidant.
When we don't learn from history, we tend to repeat it. So how many of you want to repeat this experience?
I was not collateral damage from his crisis, an unknown victim of a person who just went crazy, that I had no contact with at the time, and the world just swallowed me whole, like a mass shooter at a mall or church.
I was his wife. And I own my actions and words and behaviors.
So focusing on myself, not on the MLCER:
1. I attracted a man with serious and masked foo issues. The question is why did I attract a man who as Barbies H said, had simmering issues that were there all along?
2. I married a man who was broken all along and I didn't realize it, or didn't realize the extent. Again as Barbies H said. The issues didn't pop up over night.
So why didn't I see it and how do I prevent it happening again?
3. I used my skill as a fixer to paper over his rough spots. Why did I do that? Why not have enough respect for him to let him fight his own battles? Why did I need to fix him? To control the environment?
4. I chose to overlook some things because I chose to behave like a young girl and wear rose colored glasses. Why did I overlook certain immature behavior traits that I did find annoying and immature?
5. My own foo issues matched up with his foo issues so that we clicked like puzzle pieces uniting our wounds.
6. That click of pieces was the sound of a codependent relationship which I was an active participant in as the wife.
7. I also realized he was conflict avoidant although I wasn't familiar with the term at the time. How did that play in and why did I accept that? Why did I accept the childish distancing when he felt wronged but didn't get to behave similarly when I felt wronged? Why did I put up with the passive aggressive childish silent treatment at times? With him refusing to make decisions so he could never hold responsibility if something went wrong?
I accept those are truths in my marriage and likely in a bunch of marriages with mlc based on my years here.
All those things are on me. And I don't wish to participate in broken attracting broken or repeating history over and over. That's not rewriting history. That's getting honest and taking off the rose colored glasses. It's maturing and individuating.
And the answer to all those questions was within me and within my power to address and heal. When I embraced that I moved forward without running into walls.
All these years later, I can clearly see how this happened in my life. But I can also say, I no longer attract closet broken men. I no longer want to play build-a-man. I no longer attract men with addictions or mommy troubles. I don't have to practice biting my tongue or the rule of 3. I don't have to put up with distancing or waiting on someone to grow up.
My fella brings as much to the table as I do. We are partners in life with neither feeling the need to control, to fix, to avoid conflict, to be a single entity. We are simply partners. And that wouldn't happen but for having gotten my head right and my foo healed.
The above is my opinion.
Lp
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I don't know that there is any "wrong" here. I work with a lot of things with chemical catalysts. Bondo uses a catalyst to speed up hardening. It does not cause the Bondo to harden (Bondo will harden completely on its own in the air in a year or two), but the catalysts speeds up that process to less than an hour. So since my definition is "a substance that increases the rate of a chemical reaction without itself undergoing any permanent chemical change.", it's not a cause, but a multiplier or could make something happen faster.
So it could be the wording, the individuals experience, or the individual's "filter", or listening through a wound or all of the previous plus or minus something else. Thank you for those perspectives.
And it's funny, my D was graduating from High School and needing help (prom dress to make, colleges to apply to, acceptance letters to sort, pictures to take) and my mother was also in and out of the hospital in the year leading up to BD, so XH was not my only priority.....interesting. That brings me back to my previous mirror work where I had to look at why my actually having needs of my own seemed to be unacceptable to him, instead of his joining in and picking up the slack. Never again will that be acceptable to me, but I know why I accepted it then. I did the introspection because I do not want that in my life ever again.
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To me it doesn't make sense to suggest that the dynamics of the marriage had nothing to do with the end result. Dynamics are made by the two parties. If one or both are broken, have latent foo issues, are codependent, are conflict avoidant, have a tendency toward depression, have a tendency toward control or fixing issues, have not grown up, have not individuated, those things all impact the dynamics of a relationship, before, during and after the mlc. Could the Marshmallow fire have grown without my mower gas? Yes, but my shed didn't have to explode but for my poorly stored mower gasoline.
I agree with the whole of this post. I think the particular dynamics of a couple is usually key. That doesn’t mean the mlc spouse wouldn’t have had a crisis with a different partner but it may have had a different path I suppose and it wouldn’t have been me! Actually despite all the blame I took, I think H, because of vulnerability to issues would unconsciously only ever have married someone like me, willing to mother certain immaturities and also willing to give away my power to him. OW had all my weaknesses in spades and multiplied by ten.
But the way I was in the marriage and the more I gave away
My own identity, the worse the issues became. I didn’t see things or when I did I didn’t understand their significance . Later I was just in denial.
In any case, it wasn’t a bad marriage to be ‘blamed’ but the way we worked together. When it worked well it was great. When either of us moved into the unhealthy ways our personalities worked when under pressure, it was slowly and Imperceptively destructive. although my actions were all made in good faith, they were often not healthy ones.
So to me mirror work is not necessarily about throwing the baby out with the bath water and saying I wasn’t a good wife because I was ok. but about looking at where my particular strategies and personality fitted into the good and bad of his.
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I agree with it too. And Nerissa's thoughts on the inevitable symbiotic dance of two folks in a long term relationship in which both own bits.
There is something very sensible about the marshmallow fire metaphor that rings true.
Have more thoughts so will post later as busy now.
But proof that itbis a good question imho bc it is encouraging so many of us to keep thinking.
Have learned that sometimes the questions that make me bristle most are often signposts to important lessons lol.
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questions that make me bristle most are often signposts to important lessons lol.
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I also have found this to be true. It hits some unhealed parts of us. It shows us where we still have "work" to do.
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I'm also on the other side of MLC and looking back. My H has at times insisted that our marriage was fine, and also that it wasn't fine; that the problem was in him, and that the problem was in our relationship. He is in the end, an imperfect and unreliable narrator of his own journey (perhaps because he was checked out for much of it?), and I think I'd better not base my reaction on his recollection of it.
In one sense I do think there was a trigger within our relationship. None of my choosing, but: I can't have children. We found this out late, were shocked, in denial, did all the usual medical hijinks, and finally we gave up. And partway through, my H emotionally checked out. In retrospect, he was in mourning. So was I; but the biological problem was in me, so I was out on a limb. We tend to envision our futures in very tangible ways; I thought I'd be a mother, H thought he'd be a father. Without that future, that identity, he lost his moorings. H has admitted to this, recently. His depression (yes anger and anhedonia and OCD can all be symptoms of clinical depression, especially in men) started as a consequence, then spiraled out of all fathoming.
Was that him placing fault on me? Or on him? Was it an inherently broken thing in H, some hidden disorder of personality, that would have erupted without the trigger? Or one that a stronger man could have learned to cope with, but a man already in MLC could not? Or was depression the direct consequence of a loss, crushingly felt and unable to be rationalized?
And as much as I feel it ridiculously unfair to me to consider this a reason for my H to lose his ever loving mind (I am creative of many things in this world dammit, just not with my ovaries! >:( And I also mourned but I didn't rip anyone else apart in my pain), I do need to consider it - not to excuse but to understand the origins of a very bad bunch of years. I don't forgive it either; but I have perhaps learned to look past it toward a future that looks, well, rather different.
My own mirror work required that I first forgive myself and my recalcitrant plumbing, and then realize I'm perfectly ok without that lovely future that I had wanted, and finally that life looks pretty good (whether I share it with partner, or child, or not). If I hadn't gotten there (by myself, regardless of H's MLC), I might've fallen into in the abyss as well. So bless that bloody mirror.
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Many interesting posts! Thank you for generously sharing your experiences and perspectives.
Not quite sure if the following belongs here or on my personal thread. O well, I guess it does not matter.
As I have stated in post #1, I agree that MLC is not about the marriage or LBS. Deep seated issues are of the MLCer alone. Internal pressure had been building for decades and a trigger, or triggers, would blow the lid off at some point - ‘Hello, MLC, meet H!’ Well, that’s how it was with my H, anyhow.
It is my understanding that triggers (this term is better suited to our discussion than ‘catalyst’?) are the agents that got the MLC ball rolling and have nothing to do with the issues MLCer is carrying deep within.
I suggest that a serious fracture in marriage can be a trigger like any other - empty nest syndrome, health scare, death of loved one(s), failing business, redundancy, etc. - that set MLC in motion.
It was a necessary and vital step in my LBS journey to ask myself the question ‘Is our fractured marriage a fallout of MLC or a trigger for it?’ to ascertain if I was clinging to MLC explanation to justify my H’s emotional divorce from me. Why would I assume that my H was in MLC without some serious reflection? If I see that my marriage was indeed in dire straits, then my mindset and the course of action would be shaped accordingly. I would follow my own maxim that if MLC is not about M or LBS, the resolution of MLC is not about M or LBS, either. A broken marriage stays broken when MLCer exits the tunnel. All that goes on during the crisis would add further damages and our R may be irrevocably injured and the chances of reconciliation would be slim to none. That’s my brand of common sense, and you may disagree.
I believe one needs to go beyond the superficial, such as ‘shark’ eyes, sudden interest in exercise, a whole new wardrobe, etc. That is too facile a check list for such a serious soul-shaking life event called, ‘midlife crisis’. These superficial ‘symptoms’ could have explanations other than MLC and I did not wish to make a frivolous and one-dimensional argument to myself that these symptoms qualified my H as MLCer. That’s just too....simplistic, immature, and, frankly, an insult to the seriousness of MLC. Hence, a series of questions and soul searching was on my menu. After all, my MLCer was not the only person who had propensity to rewrite history; I could be just as talented in that department because I was in a crisis of my own, LBSCrisis.
There were broadly 3 possibilities (with a wide spectrum in each one) which presented themselves to me:
1. Our marriage was wonderful. He is in MLC.
2. Our rotten marriage was a trigger for his MLC.
3. It’s not MLC. He is leaving a seriously fractured marriage.
The answer was 1. Without asking myself some painful questions and investing emotional energy in serious reflection, I could not have come to this conclusion and convinced by it.
This processing was not a clearly defined item on my agenda as such, but a quiet and simmering presence at the back of my mind from BD till the dissipation of high replay.
Just my personal view.
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There were other choices available.
4)there were (what you refer to as)fractures (I see those as standard life events) in the marriage, which he could not deal with and one,some,all of them triggered mlc.
5) He was fractured and since he couldn't leave himself, left the marriage
6) The marriage was normal, not "wonderful" or "horrible", and he bought into the media version of "everyone else's life is more perfect than mine"
7) The marriage was not all that great, but from his mlc standpoint, coming back was better than being alone.
There are many choices. How do you determine that your marriage was "wonderful" and he was just in mlc, Acorn? What was your definitive proof that you didn't, as you say, simply rewrite your marriage so that you could say none of his mlc was triggered by something in the marriage? My marriage was good. It was wonderful for me. But how do I know how it was for XH? As a crappy example, if I love to eat ice cream every night, and did, and xh hated the smell of ice cream, but said nothing to make me happy, I had a wonderful ice cream evening every night, but xh would have had a miserable ice cream evening every night.
Would that have been a wonderful marriage if I thought it was and he didn't but I didn't know it? How can you really know after all the lies you (the generic you) have been told?
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Yes but If he/she was so unhappy in what I/we would perceive a decent marriage why not a normal breakup. Why the cruel and unusual punishment. That for me tells me it's a fractured person and not a fractured marriage.
Instead she chose to have an affair and do and say things that will scare me for life no matter how much I heal. She still hasn't offered even the smallest of apologies. My first marriage was an unhappy one. I know how that feels but I wouldn't have hurt her this way and she also cheated on me. I guess what I am trying to say is that I don't think it mattered what our marriage was like. They would have found a way to blow it up.
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I have to say that I'm really enjoying this discussion. I am finding so much that I can relate to, specifically everything LP and Nerissa said.
I'm not putting the blame on the LBS, because we would never blow up our families,and we would try anything before splitting up the family and even then, we would be as correct as possible about it. What I mean is that I now know about stuff like codependency and conflict avoidant and although my H totally was both of these, I was to a certain extent, as well. Put the two of us together and there's going to be a difficult relationship eventually, especially once life becomes more stressful because of kids, investments, jobs, deaths, what ever.
I do think that my H chose me because I was perfect for his FOO issues. I mean he chose me subconsciously, he's not aware of having FOO issues. However, I have them, too, and I believe I enabled much of his bad behaviour for years, and the more I did to cover up his weaknesses, the worse he got, but I kept working harder, controlling more, fixing everything. I now know that this was a weakness in me that needs resolving. I have been working on it, mainly, as others have said, because I refuse to be in a relationship like I had with my H again.
Our marriage was not difficult at first, but that was probably because I smoothed everything over, idolized him, fluttered around him and made him feel like a star. Once I started doing everything for our family, I was exhausted and resentful and stopped providing him with that attention. I didn't do it on purpose, it just developed. I can see now that my H's 'fire' had started inside him before we met. My fluttering kept it under control. Once I stopped idolizing him because honestly, he became such a disappointment, the fire started growing. Then when his parents died within a year of each other, my oldest went off to college abroad, he lost interest in our business and it became a giant financial problem, then his sister died, and OW arrived one month later. I think the fire got out of control because I stopped feeding his ego. I'm not saying that I should have carried on, I'm just saying that I probably managed to keep his crisis at bay for years and hence the 30 years together before BD.
My part in the crisis, is that I was immature and brought my own issues to the relationship, otherwise I would never have married a boy-man or accepted his lazy, financially irresponsible ways. I am working on why I was like this. I don't ever want to be with an immature man again, but I'm still worried that I would not know the difference.
Anyway, as far as my situation is concerned, I do think that the dynamic of our marriage combined with some major external stresses lead to the crisis taking off. If I had done things differently could I have avoided my H going into a major MLC? Possibly, but I was complete unaware of what I was doing so I doubt it. I was attracted to my H for the wrong reasons and that is something that is just mine to deal with. I have been working on this with my IC since BD. It's a long process as it's very hard to change the damaging behaviour that can be instilled on us by our FOO.
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Milly — I love your way of describing it, “fluttered around him”, because yes, I did that with my h too. I don’t know why he was the only man I could ever be that way with.
Your post made me stop and think. Were we attracted to our spouses for the wrong reasons?
I was immature. I think I still am. But I also think h and I both were mature in the ways that mattered, and he was an able leader in the beginning. He was trustworthy. Or, I thought so at the time, and for a long time. It’s jarring to look back on old journals and see that years ago, h appeared solidly good. The h he is now, is the opposite of all that, almost as though he knew why he was loved and for whatever reason is now intent on burning it to the ground.
I had to think for a minute about “boy-man” and lazy financially irresponsible ways. It’s weird because h was always such a tightwad before MLC. I still feel hurt at how much he has spent, is spending, to keep on with ow2. About immaturity, I struggle with this but I think I always saw it as us building together, learning together, maturing together. So there was a great deal of immaturity that I was more than willing to overlook, because heck: what do *I* know. And I *still* don’t know.
There was just always something irrepressible, in h, in his spirit. That was key for me, it was something I really loved about him. And whatever that was, even if it led to this MLC or maybe the total end of us? It’s something I need, in coupling, in order to feel happy. I’d never really seen it in another person, before him. And haven’t seen it since.
The funny thing is I don’t actually think ow2 is getting that from him. But I’m kind of at a point where I feel like all anyone ever gets from relationship is it’s own projections. I definitely have worn rose-tinted perspective for ages, so there’s that — not unrealistic, but ultimately often too forgiving or too “accepting”, which I had always been taught was a good trait. “Non-judgmental”. “Unconditional”. No template for how to do or be any of that correctly. So, I loved my best ways and I thought we were good. Or thought I was, anyway.
I think ow probably thinks the same thing, about the two of them. And maybe he does too. Weirdly, I’m not taking issue with that: they can do and be whatever, and right now I don’t have any thoughts on it. But it’s weird to realize or just to suppose, how much of any relationship or intimacy is actually a shared perception at all?
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With more thought....
I am not sure it is an either/or kind of question. And I think there is causation and correlation in the mix.
I also think that - using LP's marshmallow fire and stored gasoline example - my half of this life experience created a level of damage disproportionate to any of my own imperfections and that I did not protect myself well from.
I think the question is complicated and trigger-y for some of us bc it is at the heart of our own WTF happened questions. And bc trauma creates a strange place of self-doubt, self-blame and a temptation to rewrite the past in order to make sense of the present and feel some (probably illusory often) control over our future security. Complicated.
I suspect too that our answer to the question might be shaded, or more or less important, depending on our individual situations. If I am trying to reconnect with a spouse or working out if I want to repair a relationship, then part of that is probably working out if there is anything worth investing in. If I am trying to accept an end to a relationship that is now in the past with a lot of missing info, then part of that is probably working out what I can forgive and what I can learn from the experience as part of my own life story. It is a very individual hunt for what feels close enough to the truth as we can get and our individual truths might be quite different. Or that our own truth might change over time.
I was digging off a bit of antsy anxiety yesterday at the allotment. Good for shaking anxiety off and also often a time when my mind trips over it's own conclusions while my hands are busy.
It is still a remarkable thing to me that the marriage and friendship we had disappeared so quickly and so completely. Boom...poof...gone. There really was no noticeable residue of any previous love or like or respect in my h's behaviour at all. That didn't feel normal to me at the time. It doesn't feel normal now years later. I trust that feeling as part of my truth. I tried and tried and I could never draw a sensible straight line between the relationship I had and the way my h ended it. Which always suggested to me that it was more about his reality than mine.
I also believe that i am not a stupid person or normally given to avoiding conflict or tough truths. So I don't believe that there were a host of red flags that just looked like flags bc of my rose-coloured goggles. Or that my h had a personality disorder that I did not notice or that he was wearing a mask for almost 20 years. That just doesn't make sense and I trust my own judgment on that too.
I want to say something about trauma here though bc being able to trust ones own judgment and thinking is a tender spot in recovery. Words like 'cause' or 'catalyst' or 'responsibility' say can inadvertently activate thoughts and some of them are not very healthy, useful or accurate thoughts. (Velika recently posted a link to a thismaericanlife.org podcast called ten sessions about how unpicking our post trauma learned thinking is part of healing.) Some of us here - including me - are still partially 'hearing through a wound' as Barbie calls it. I don't like it much but I acknowledge it. When I look at my life from 1997-now, I look through a wound at least a bit. Questions like these are part of closing the wound but it is messy. And others viewpoints, perhaps from further down the line or more healed, may be what I would like to think or how I would like to feel...but my lens is not always so unclouded truthfully. Taking ownership of parts of a situation where I was abused and afraid is a tricky thing.
So...I trust my judgment that what happened felt very odd and that it did not feel like a natural evolution from the relationship we had and that I do not believe I ignored obvious dysfunction in my m or in my h. I know that my h had a bucket of FOO stuff and some trauma from surviving a fire at 15 which killed his uncle and cousin. I know that my h was diagnosed with severe depression/ocd and under psychiatric care for at least two years to my knowledge.
It is logical to me to think that if my h was more fractured than I understood, then my m was more fractured than I understood bc he was half of it. He brought that with him into our relationship and life. And I did know some of it, just not all of it; I just was niave about the risk or long-term effects of it. I'm not sure my h knew the extent of his own fractures tbh so how could I have known or foreseen the impact? But it is reasonable to see the m as having an inherent hairline fracture if one person in the m did so yes at one level my m was fractured. Yet he brought that fracture into the m and took it with him when he left, so it doesn't make sense that the m triggered it.
The m co-existed with it though. And over time, in the normal dance of intimate relationships, I think the shape of our m adapted around some of those fractures. Perhaps the m was the safe solution until it wasn't? And my bit of the work round? I think there were parts of my h I did not respect and judged as weaker than me so I (and everyone else who knew him) adapted expectations and did not challenge some of his picture of himself. And, whilst I wasn't a big fixer, that story was also based on me being 'stronger' if he was 'weaker'. That was a co-created fracture point and I own my bit of that. And it made our m vulnerable in circumstances where I might not be strong or where he needed to be stronger....pretty much how life was in the year up to BD. Definitely where I was as a bereaved, traumatised, with a serious illness and then PTSD person for about 18 months post BD. Our m was too vulnerable to withstand my weakness and my h was too fractured to step in and carry it on his own.
So, I don't believe that me or our m caused his crisis. I think he carried the seeds of it and created a latent fracture in our m bc of them. I think I inadvertently did not push us to repair that weak spot bc of adapting around some of the seeds and my own niavety and my own romantic arrogance that I was important to my h and my own mistaken beliefs about my strength.
I don't believe that our m was a catalyst for his crisis.
I do believe that the weakening of his belief in the attachment might have been an additional trigger even if it was mostly created in his head and through his actions.
Like a snowball.
Life was hard, h feels unhappy, depressed h withdraws, grieving w withdraws....and suddenly h now realises that his m is not the safe strong thing he thought it was either.....boom, off to the MLC races. If my h loved and liked me before as much as it seemed he did, doubting our m would have been a big deal for him. I can see in a strange way that losing me and losing our m could have been an additional trigger in a strange self-fulfilling self-destructive prophecy kind of way.
I think my m was fallout and also perhaps a contributing snowball trigger, ironically bc I think perhaps our m was actually very important to my h's sense of self, that I was important to him. (Even if it did not feel that way at all post BD).
Going back to LP's marshmallow fire....maybe thinking about the awful bushfires in Aus right now. I don't believe that the cause of the fire (crisis) was me or our m. Nor do I believe my house was smouldering for years without me noticing. But I think there was a weak spot in my marital house that added to the strength of the fire and the scale of the destruction. That metaphorical gasoline can. I wasn't even solely responsible for the can tbh....but I did know it was there and I didn't deal with it earlier. And I did hang around a bit too long trying to save the house from burning down, worrying about my h while wondering why he had matches in his hand lol, instead of jumping in my ute and getting to a safe place. :)
So how do I use any of these lessons given that I am not reconnecting, Standing or even looking for a new relationship? Without throwing the baby out with the bath Water? ( oh dear, that's a mix of metaphors isn't it!) And given that I can't redo the past.
What is/was my equivalent of the gasoline can?
That might require a bit more thought on my own thread.
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What is/was my equivalent of the gasoline can?
That might require a bit more thought on my own thread.
In your case, where you had acted as a ‘container’ for anxiety etc and then maybe faltered for a while, might the gasoline not have been a much younger, less educated, intelligent and sophisticated woman who made your husband feel successful, capable and strong? ( I mean this seems to be a theme for men anyway) she was around and interested at the right time. Had she not been, maybe the boat might have righted itself.
In my case I don’t think OW was truly the gasoline because I think he was looking for someone anyway. I think we had run into problems that ultimately have to do with his issues but my own played into them. I never quite see that dynamic in your story. I don’t see a lot that was
Avoidable in your story. I think you had some really bad luck and a spouse with vulnerabilities that you were aware of but whose significance in life’s bigger picture you couldn’t really know.
Reasons aren’t the same as fault. As Tera has pointed out, memory unreliable and so is perspective. The best we can do is work out a narrative that is as faithful to our experience and ability to bear the truth about ourselves as we can. I sometimes think you look to tear yourself up to search for a reason inside yourself that might have been in your H.s head, but to other people, isn’t there at all.
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To me it doesn't make sense to suggest that the dynamics of the marriage had nothing to do with the end result. Dynamics are made by the two parties. If one or both are broken, have latent foo issues, are codependent, are conflict avoidant, have a tendency toward depression, have a tendency toward control or fixing issues, have not grown up, have not individuated, those things all impact the dynamics of a relationship, before, during and after the mlc. Could the Marshmallow fire have grown without my mower gas? Yes, but my shed didn't have to explode but for my poorly stored mower gasoline.
Just my thoughts on this - and this is just my personal perspective, as a result of where I am in my own life 5 years after BD. Note to readers who are not familiar with me. I am not standing. I was divorced in 2016. Once my H pulled the pin in the divorce grenade - I considered our relationship irreparable.
I totally agree with LP on her above statement.
And I think the reason why this statement is important is because I think examining our our dynamics in the marriage will give insight into how to heal from the pain.
We often say that a MLC breakup is different from any other "normal breakup/divorce".
And I agree. Because for the most part we end up dealing with monsters, or conflict avoiders who refuse to participate meaningfully in the legal and financial aspects of the separation.
In the case of those with minor children - it often involves abandonment of the children as well.
What I see in many (not all) of the LBSers stories is the issue of abandonment.
Our spouses suddenly abandoned us.
And they did it in a cowardly way.
Usually they sought out other relationships and jumped when they felt they had a safe place to land - the OW/OM.
That is a childish behavior.
This is why you see so many female LBSers say they married a man-child.
One thing my IC brought up to me soon after bomb drop is - my xH was always a man-child - this was nothing sudden.
The fact that I didn't recognize it had nothing to do with the fact that this person had not matured in a normal way. And this was do to his own FOO issues.
So there was the marshmallow fire.
But my reaction to adapting to his issues created a secondary fire - my own gas in the shed moment.
I was the stronger one in the relationship.
XH was shy, almost fearful of new experiences.
The new friendships we had were all forged by me.
(And xH rejected all of the friends once he left).
Not once in 20 years did he make a new friend on his own.
xH was indecisive, and relied on me to make major decisions.
For more than 1/2 of the relationship I made more money, had more assets.
I think the most telling statement he made when he left was - "OW said she would take care of me."
xH wanted a mommy. And maybe he got one? I really don't know.
But none of this relates to me, why I got so devastated, and why it was so hard for me to heal.
LP often says we LBSers are pre-primed for a MLCer.
What she means is often we had our own FOO issues that set us up to select a person with certain character defects.
I had my own FOO issues.
I had been "abandoned" by my Father when he left before I was 2.
I had almost no interaction with him until I was perhaps in high school - and even then it was confined to a couple of short day visits a year.
My Mother had a bout with alcoholism from the time I was 12 till 18 years old.
During that time I had to live with a grandparent.
In effect I was "abandoned" again by my mother.
My first husband died prematurely when I was in my early 30s. - another "abandonment".
I was an only child. My father was an only child - so no cousins on that side.
My mother's sister never married or had children - so no cousins there.
My only living relative is a 87 year old aunt.
I was desperate for a family connection.
I met xH at work, like me he was professionally trained and employed.
He had 2 brothers and a sister.
His parents were married over 30 years.
They had a huge family. There were no divorces in the family at all.
I was 10 years older than xH (that should have been a warning sign there).
If I am honest, I was flattered that a good looking younger man was interested in me.
I had everything in place from a material stand point.
I owned 2 homes in the country. I had an apartment in NYC.
I had some decent savings.
All xH had to do was move in with his clothes.
Because I had more money - if things needed to be replaced - like furniture, or a car, I bought it with my own funds.
After waiting 10 years for xH to plan a vacation, I started to plan and pay for our vacations.
I realized xH was a spend thrift - so I had him pay for the NYC rent, and the car insurances - otherwise he would have squandered his entire paycheck.
So many times I tried to sit xH down so we could plan a budget together.
He always had excuses.
XH had issues with self-confidence.
I started to find ways to require xH to participate decision making.
Often I went along with less than stellar choices simply to give xH a say in things - so he could feel important.
Unknown to me - that backfired - as he felt "pressured" and felt he was handling more than his fair share of the responsibilities. (unfactual - but his post BD opinion).
The more I tried to support him the more I was inadvertently enabling his weaknesses.
And the more I was pretzling and losing myself in the process.
Here is the proof.
When BD happened - I was suicidal.
I simply didn't/couldn't see a life without this man.
Honestly - that's not healthy.
2 years after BD I was still a wreck.
My entire focus was on the MLC/BD and associated fallout.
I spent day and night on the HS forum.
I talked endlessly about my xH, my marriage, the BD, my pain.
Compare that to where I was two years after my first H's death.
Certainly I missed him - I still do - but I was not completely broken.
That shows me how much I crippled myself in the end stages of the relationship.
I didn't start out like that when xH met me.
I was a strong independent woman.
Yes I had been in grief from my first H's death - but I recovered and was happy as a single woman.
Never once in the time after my first H's death did I contemplate suicide.
But I certainly did after BD - so why the difference?
Because I no longer saw myself as independent.
In pretzeling myself - I had not remained true to my authentic self.
I was overwhelmed with the houses - houses that I owned and managed years before I ever met xH.
Because I had let go of the reigns on the properties - and let xH manage the details.
I was overwhelmed with the finances, because I had been flying without too much accountability since 2 salaries provided lots of wiggle room.
The reality is - none of the things that overwhelmed me were truly overwhelming.
I had in my past managed it all on my own - and I was perfectly capable of managing it again.
But my PERCEPTION of my abilities had changed.
My gas in the shed was brought in drop by drop until it was a full can.
Fear of not having any family.
Having experienced abandonment multiple time before and having my own doubts about my self worth.
Compensating for a man who was an introvert, and childish in his approach to grown up responsibilities because I so desperately wanted to be in the relationship.
THIS is what I brought to the table.
Was it a miserable marriage?
Not at all. But were there unhealthy dynamics?
Yes there were.
My denial also added gas to the gas can.
I desperately wanted my xH back.
I look back now and realize that too was unhealthy.
If a man suddenly walks out - and never looks back.
If a man cares not one iota about my well being after BD - but instead does passive aggressive things to harm me - why is it healthy to try to cling to that relationship?
I will tell you that my ego was hurt.
I was prideful.
I had a marriage and a life that other people were envious of.
So I had shame when it all came suddenly crashing down.
I was a highly educated professional with lots of talents - but my husband was choosing a high school dropout on welfare.
Somehow I saw that as a reflection on my inadequacies - not his.
I was a smart person - so surely I could figure out a solution.
Surely my xH would come to his senses.
This was the idea that kept my pride going - until as the years passed - I was proved wrong - and it was more shameful.
LP says it all the time - MLC will knock the cr@p out of an over inflated ego.
And I was like an limp balloon at the end.
That denial kept me stuck. I kept me focusing on things I could not change rather than the things I could.
The gas drops that I brought to the can were many.
It was my job to identify and rectify my own issues.
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Airmid, my H sounds exactly like yours: insecure, shy, friendless, couldn't talk about the family budget, couldn't make decisions.....I was also like you and pretzeled myself into someone I wasn't to please him, or to keep things calm so I wouldn't lose him and our family. And the more I pretzeled myself, the worse he became, and as you say, the more of myself I lost. I didn't know who I was at the end. Still working on that.
But this nobody-me I became in the end was because of my own FOO issues. I don't think a healthy, mature woman would have allowed their H to even begin to mistreat them, that's what I call the avoidant personality, the silent treatment, the lack of discussing problems, the lack of talking about our budget. I think that if I'd been a mature Milly, I would have dumped my H the moment he stopped behaving as a responsible husband.
And yet my H seemed responsible when we first started living together, living within our means, budgeting based on our joint pay cheques, paying everything on time, going on holiday with what was left over. How could I have known that he would slowly stop paying his taxes, start secretly spending his whole pay cheque on himself every month so there was nothing ever left for the family budget? He stopped working full days, stopped paying his car insurance and drove around for 3 years without any, and still to this day I don't know how he managed to spend 90% of his hefty pay cheque every single month behind my back. I don't know what he did with the money. My H's favourite phrase these past 15 years has been: I don't have any money.
Interesting your take on your H's OW being a mommy figure. I had always looked at my H's OW as the dumsel in distress as we're told. But my H's OW has the ego of a bull and is very ambitious. It's possible she told my H a dreamy version of how their lives could be and he saw himself and all his problems now resolved (by OW). That would actually make a lot more sense to me than my H being a knight in shining armor. My H was incapable or fixing, protecting, or anything knightly when with me. And he's still a wimp with his kids: eg. let's the OW sue his D. I think my H found a very sexy mommy in this OW, or a very fluttery fixer, actually a little like I was in the beginning.
Really interesting comparing our marriages under this frame.
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I absolutely recognise the less than feeling.
I didn't have the FOO stuff you describe. I didn't feel the ego thing of competition with ow. I did have the ego thing of shocked disbelief that i no longer mattered at all to my h as I had believed I did. Tbh I still find that a bit shocking lol.
I genuinely enjoyed my m and my h until he blew up. I think some of the adapting round his FOO spots was occasionally a bit tiring, and unwisely inadvertently enabling, but I did not feel lessened by our m or by him.
But I absolutely feel less than I was bc of how many of my life treasures got trashed and mostly bc of how I reacted to the confluence of events and to feeling so helpless and so abandoned by all my lost people. I think i stopped feeling in my bones that I mattered bc I no longer had people to whom I mattered if that makes sense. I understand why it overwhelmed me, know it wasn't healthy as a reaction and feel (currently) less than I was bc of my reaction to it. It has changed me and I don't like some of the changes much. I accept them but I don't like them. I need to figure out still which are temporary and which are permanent.
Finding a way to feel not less than and not permanently partially fragile is my challenge.
In my case, choosing NC and choosing to let my h go was probably the first few drops of new fuel. My truth was that, no matter how much I loved him and no matter what happened to him, I stopped believing that he could ever again be the kind of partner I wanted bc of what he had shown himself capable of doing. I could never have been myself again with him or felt the delight or joy I'd felt before. I am still strangely quite grateful to have experienced that; maybe that is why less than that would not have been enough for me.
So truthfully, most of my struggle in the last couple of years has not been about him at all but about my late-onset broken pieces lol. From a forced empty slate I suppose.
My marriage had much less effect on me than my reaction to how my m ended and feeling so alone.
Ha ha, so accidentally I suppose I'm saying that I do mostly see my m as fallout from his crisis which was probably inevitable for someone with his baggage. I may have been great healthy scaffolding lol...but I am more than that. :)
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I think one of the important parts of recovery is to feel safe relying on our perceptions.
I think some people on this forum are seeing a definite neurological event that pushes this beyond a question of marriage that won’t be fruitful and in fact could be damaging and traumatic if considered in the wrong stages when the LBS is very vulnerable.
We all know that many MLCers heartlessly pummel their former spouse with all sorts of accusation, gaslighting, and confabulation they often later cannot recall or even agree with. I read a ton of relationship books post bomb drop, which I now find deeply touching and also makes me want to protect that version of myself.
The best thing is to feel safe enough with yourself to trust your memories, your perspective, whatever that may be or if it changes with new information.
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So true Velika - many monsters MLCers become unhinged and desperate to cruelly shred their LBS of their self-esteem and positive memories and then later act/believe that they never did the things they did. Examining our own behavior to heal, yes those efforts are worthwhile, mirror work, also smart if approached with self love and understanding - that said, i think we have to be very careful to be retraumatized by over-analyzing - I know I didn’t cause my spouses mania or create the conditions for his crisis - and while my responsibility is to myself and to be my best version of me, I don’t own his choices, his betrayal, abuse, neglect, financial irresponsibility and more. I honestly believe that our marriage and family likely delayed his crisis as I was definitely a “fixer” and I now understand I had many codependent traits - but his breakdown was going to happen regardless of who his spouse was -
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I'm concerned that this thread is reinforcing MLCers blame game in the potentially damaged psyche of the early stage LBS.
I like many other LBSs suffered more than one BD and after BD1 I accepted a lot of responsibility for my W's MLC and her first PA. I tried to accept the blame on the logic that if my formerly loving wife had acted so against her previous nature and beliefs that I must have somehow broken her and I had done this unknowingly and without my W telling me.
I worked to be a better husband and father, using CBT to address my own issues.
My W like many other MLCers had a 'return' only to have a second PA and BD again, with me again being blamed as the cause, with our M being the trigger for her behaviours. My work on myself and changes I made were seen as too little too late, 'You had already messed me up'.
Nothing I could do would fix in her what I had not broken.
My MLC W felt like she was broken by our M... That her MLC was not to do with her life choices, lack of personal confidence, FOO issues, unresolved grief over bereavements we had suffered, etc.
I believe childhood echoes forever and the seeds of MLC are sown in childhood. My W was not the one person on planet earth who was without emotional issues from FOO, etc when we met and feel in love. To me MLC seems far too big to have been formed in secret in a M that was not abusive or cold and indeed had many beautiful times, not least being blessed with four amazing children.
The potential for an MLC is in us all and doesnt belong to others... MLC is an internal battle and I believe almost nothing to do with the partner who is blamed... this blame game is selfish, lazy and too simple an explanation, but it is so much easier for the MLCer than facing the pain.
How many of our LBS brothers and sisters have sat, stunned like me thinking 'Was I really that bad to live with?', 'Am I now reaping what I unknowingly sowed'? 'Do I deserve this?'
This I know is a very dark place to inhabit. And with time and sincerity and a lot of work I have separated out our M issues from her MLC and now feel confident that the issues within our M are tiny compared to the hugeness of an MLC. This took much hard work to accomplish and I too am concerned that those who are closer to BD than me will read some of this thread as a validation of MLC blaming.
MLC is amongst the most major of depressive episodes, with the extreme behaviours exhibited by the MLCer more akin to a serious psychological breakdown than to the degradation of a stagnant marriage. The difference between a relationship breakdown and the extremes of MLC are huge and the two situations incomparable IMHO.
I did not break her and nor did our M, indeed I believe that the M prevented her from an earlier MLC as I tried to hold us together, tried to help her to fix herself by being strong for two.
This cannot work as the MLC battle is within my W and within each MLCer. LBS are not to blame, M is not the trigger.
I believe MLC starts very early, in my case long before there is even any replay behaviours, it starts slow and creeps up on the MLCer, until eventually they see themselves as being justified in outrageous behaviours as they are married to a monster.
None of this is fair or true and I for one dont accept this twisted version of reality, I accept my faults and will continue to work on them, but I refuse to accept the blame for the hell of MLC visited upon me.
We are all the lens through which we see the world and the MLCer's lens is very distorted and dark, it is dangerous to accept their vision of the world as reality.
LW
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First of all I don't think this thread is necessarily aimed at newbies.
Newbies are in a lot of a pain and grief and confusion.
Not all threads on the forum are for newbies - there are plenty of others that are.
The steps for a newbie in my opinion are:
1) self care - make sure you are eating, taking any required medications on time and diligently, finding stress relief actions (massage, yoga etc.)
2) find support - reach out to friends, family, an Individual Counselor/therapist (IC), your religious pastor/leader, and this forum to get support.
3) find your footing financially. protect your finances legally if need be.
after that practice the 180s - https://beingabeautifulmess.wordpress.com/the-180/
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But after a certain period of time - you have to get up from the car wreck and look to your own wounds.
This thread is not about immediate trauma care - it is about long term healing.
At the car accident you stabilize the patient - you stop the bleeding. Immediate care.
But afterwards you set the broken bones, you may need rehab to learn to walk again - in many ways recovery from BD is like recovering from a serious accident. Long term healing.
You - the LBSer did not cause the car wreck - but you and only you can determine the appropriate actions to heal.
Let's face it - your spouse has gone AWOL - your spouse is going to do NOTHING to help you heal.
If you are in the first phases of post BD - then you have basic immediate needs to tend to.
But usually after a year or two we have the basic needs covered - how to pay the rent - how to feed ourselves properly - how to get decent sleep. What are the steps to go beyond the basic immediate healing?
My comments were about those of us 3-4-5 and even more years out from this.
The majority of of the posters are not in reconciliation - and may never be.
But they are still struggling.
And to those people I say you have to look at what your own dynamics are - and what is possibly keeping you stuck.
If you are still acting like a hermit because the world now feels like a scary place - what are you going to do about it?
You may not have a solution right this very minute - but certainly it warrants some consideration.
Because if you don't look inward you are doomed to stay put. ....
You were not responsible for the MLC - but you may have developed some coping habits - pre-BD or post BD that are no longer serving you.
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I'm concerned that this thread is reinforcing MLCers blame game in the potentially damaged psyche of the early stage LBS.
That is certainly not the intention of Acorn's thread. None who are writing here are early stage LBS'S. But we are members of this forum, and RCR decided a long time ago to have one forum instead of separate forums for newbies and older timers.
I like many other LBSs suffered more than one BD and after BD1 I accepted a lot of responsibility for my W's MLC and her first PA. I tried to accept the blame on the logic that if my formerly loving wife had acted so against her previous nature and beliefs that I must have somehow broken her and I had done this unknowingly and without my W telling me.
I worked to be a better husband and father, using CBT to address my own issues.
My W like many other MLCers had a 'return' only to have a second PA and BD again, with me again being blamed as the cause, with our M being the trigger for her behaviours. My work on myself and changes I made were seen as too little too late, 'You had already messed me up'.
Nothing I could do would fix in her what I had not broken.
All that is true for many of us. But that is not what the focus of this thread is about in my opinion. The focus is the lbs not the words of the MLCer.
My MLC W felt like she was broken by our M... That her MLC was not to do with her life choices, lack of personal confidence, FOO issues, unresolved grief over bereavements we had suffered, etc.
Of course, the MLCer thinks the problem is all the lbs. Perhaps just as the lbs thinks all the problems after bd are the responsibility of the MLCer. But that's not the timeframe alone being discussed.
I believe childhood echoes forever and the seeds of MLC are sown in childhood. My W was not the one person on planet earth who was without emotional issues from FOO, etc when we met and feel in love. To me MLC seems far too big to have been formed in secret in a M that was not abusive or cold and indeed had many beautiful times, not least being blessed with four amazing children.
Quite true. I think more than one person noted in this thread including Airmid, Barbiedoll husband, and myself that the beginning of MLC happened much before the marriage as related to FOO issues.
The potential for an MLC is in us all and doesnt belong to others... MLC is an internal battle and I believe almost nothing to do with the partner who is blamed... this blame game is selfish, lazy and too simple an explanation, but it is so much easier for the MLCer than facing the pain.
Absolutely true. But again not the topic or focus of this thread.
How many of our LBS brothers and sisters have sat, stunned like me thinking 'Was I really that bad to live with?', 'Am I now reaping what I unknowingly sowed'? 'Do I deserve this?'
I'd say many.
This I know is a very dark place to inhabit. And with time and sincerity and a lot of work I have separated out our M issues from her MLC and now feel confident that the issues within our M are tiny compared to the hugeness of an MLC. This took much hard work to accomplish and I too am concerned that those who are closer to BD than me will read some of this thread as a validation of MLC blaming.
I don't see the tie to validating MLC blaming as none of what we've spoken about are things the MLCer used as justification for their actions or words. The topic isn't the same. The timeframe isnt the same.
As to newbies being upset or misunderstanding the thread, perhaps so, perhaps not. So is your suggestion that older timers censor their discussions for newbies? It was not long ago that several newbies strongly asserted they didn't want to be protected.
MLC is amongst the most major of depressive episodes, with the extreme behaviours exhibited by the MLCer more akin to a serious psychological breakdown than to the degradation of a stagnant marriage. The difference between a relationship breakdown and the extremes of MLC are huge and the two situations incomparable IMHO.
I did not break her and nor did our M, indeed I believe that the M prevented her from an earlier MLC as I tried to hold us together, tried to help her to fix herself by being strong for two.
This cannot work as the MLC battle is within my W and within each MLCer. LBS are not to blame, M is not the trigger.
That's true that the MLC is within the MLCer. But your focus is on the MLCer. The thread is focusing on the lbs. No one suggested anywhere the LBS is responsible for the Mlc. We are suggesting we weren't passive furniture in our marriages and that our actions and reactions played a part for which we were responsible during courtship, during the marriage, during the mlc and after, relayed to our foo issues, our behaviors, our words, our reactions, our steps to not having our lives defined by another's MLC and pain for the rest of our lives. Notice I am focusing on the lbs, not focusing on responsibility for the Mlc or the actions of the MLCer.
I believe MLC starts very early, in my case long before there is even any replay behaviours, it starts slow and creeps up on the MLCer, until eventually they see themselves as being justified in outrageous behaviours as they are married to a monster.
Quite true. However, that doesn't address the lbs. That's the MLCer.
None of this is fair or true and I for one dont accept this twisted version of reality, I accept my faults and will continue to work on them, but I refuse to accept the blame for the hell of MLC visited upon me.
Once again, no one asked you to accept blame for her mlc. Quite the opposite in fact. We are looking at and discussing possible avenues of healing for the lbs as related to self work.
We are all the lens through which we see the world and the MLCer's lens is very distorted and dark, it is dangerous to accept their vision of the world as reality.
LW
Again, the topic of the thread is not to accept the vision of the MLCer. It's about the vision of the LBS, some years down the road. Part of that is moving past the singular focus of fault and looking through the mlc lens because we are individuals not just the spouse of a MLCer.
Maybe, some are missing the point of this thread because they are not as far from the bd trauma as they think. I'm sure you meant well with your concern and post. I simply disagree and believe you are missing the point and focus of the thread. Maybe someday you will look back and have a different view.
Lp
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Agree with what you say Airmid, but I felt that it may not be clear to a newbie that this thread was not for them in the immediate aftermath of their 'car crash'
Closer to BD i would certainly have been attracted to this post as it seems to be about the turmoil of the blame game that was so intense just after BD and thought it fair to say that there is distortion in the MLCers view of the world which can be very damaging if not recognised as being distorted.
I dont object at all to the content of the posts, but simply wanted to voice a note of caution that this inner discourse should be approached from a safe distance from the burning car wreck. On this we agree.
All self reflection is useful, but requires a clear eye that is not functioning just after BD, at least was not for me!
I apologise if I appeared to be critical or dismissive of the thread of posts on it, my intention was only to protect the vulnerable who may misinterpret the purpose, as I believe I may have done closer to BD.
LW
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Little Wing, I agree with you and what some others are saying about the nature of this thread perhaps being harmful to LBSers.
When people post their personal thoughts, I find it very disturbing that LP takes it upon herself to point out all the things that she sees are "wrong" with that person's point of view because they don't agree with how she sees it.
Do others think it is appropriate for another member to dissect each paragraph of someone else's thoughts and in bold state why they are wrong?
Express how you feel about a topic. We all see things very differently and there really is not a right or wrong response but putting another person's post down in this manner is not right.
It doesn't add value to the discussion, but to me appears to just want to shown some kind of superiority of another's point of view over someone who has a different idea.
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More and more it seems to me that there was nothing in our m that warranted the kind of destruction and behaviour from a h in some kind of crisis. It is like comparing a firework sparkler with a nuclear rocket tbh. Completely disproportionate. Whatever broke in my h, it came from his head and his choices not mine.
Sample of one.
And time and distance helps, but each LBS has to stumble along their own path to their own conclusions about their own history and experience I think.
And we won't all reach the same conclusions perhaps.
And we read with a different eye as we stumble forwards.
I do think there is a terrible and potentially self-destructive compulsion for many LBS who feel traumatised while being told that their reality is false to rewrite the past to make sense of the present. True enough.
But I also think that we need to respect that the struggle is part of the process and that different perspectives can help people figure out what is up and what is down for themselves.
My struggle now is the trauma of how I dealt with the trauma if that makes sense.
Not my xh or any of the other traumatic events....those I have dealt with....the last bit of healing - and it feels like the hardest bit - is owning my own responsibility for how I did and didn't respond to it all. There was a time when I blamed my xh for a good chunk of my PTSD. And to be fair, his behaviour was part of the events that created it. But he didn't cause it and there were other events. Blaming my xh for my PTSD did not help me heal one jot. Accepting it and owning my own choices and behaviours did and continues to do so. Much as I hate feeling like there is one more hill to climb. Sigh.
My experience of the affect of trauma is probably why I lean more towards the philosophy that trying to wrestle with a person in crisis who simply does not care what you think is best avoided as soon as you can get to the point when you can do that. A person in this kind of profound unravelling crisis is a poor investment of energy. Doing so is an opportunity to create less additional damage and rarely seems to make any constructive difference to the path of their crisis at all imho.
I honestly believe that the kindest thing I could do for both my then h and myself was to let him go. It might have been less damaging for both of us if i had been able to do that more actively and sooner. Jmo. Again sample of one.
As LP says, the view looks a bit different for some of us a few years out but it is as valid a part of the LBS experience as others. And maybe a different version of hope which is not a hostage to MLC fortune.
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I very much appreciated your comments Little Wing and feel very similarly, nor do I think your comments were MLCer focused, they were focused on your experience of observing and experiencing your spouses MLC - so relevant to you. Thanks for your wise comments.
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I think the question actually really should be seen as: Is your spouse having an MLC (on the assumption it is due to pre-existing FOO issues, not the marriage) or was your spouse unhappy in the marriage and therefore decided to leave (and it wasn't MLC)?
Now, that may upset some people because it puts the blame on some for the breakdown of their marriage. But this is an MLC forum and I do think it is a good idea for one to be honest with oneself to see if this forum is actually even appropriate (your spouse had an MLC) or if it simply is a way to put on blinders to the reality of one's situation (they didn't).
I for one don't think the LBS can cause MLC in the first place. So therefore, it isn't MLC if it is due to the marriage.
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Little Wing, I agree with you and what some others are saying about the nature of this thread perhaps being harmful to LBSers.
When people post their personal thoughts, I find it very disturbing that LP takes it upon herself to point out all the things that she sees are "wrong" with that person's point of view because they don't agree with how she sees it.
Do others think it is appropriate for another member to dissect each paragraph of someone else's thoughts and in bold state why they are wrong?
Express how you feel about a topic. We all see things very differently and there really is not a right or wrong response but putting another person's post down in this manner is not right.
It doesn't add value to the discussion, but to me appears to just want to shown some kind of superiority of another's point of view over someone who has a different idea.
I have taught online and classroom courses. The number one rule I set for my students is it is perfectly acceptable to disagree with a person's opinion but it is not acceptable to denigrate the person for having that opinion. I see absolutely nothing wrong with what LP is doing. This is RCR's forum though and she gets to set the rules. Having had RCR thank me personally for disagreeing with her and exposing her to different viewpoints, I don't think she necessarily would see what LP is doing as wrong either.
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In the very early days post BD, I just scrolled the forum looking for reconciliation threads. I don’t think I would have even opened this one up.
Then, for a time, I made up my own rules and ignored anyone’s advise that didn’t line up with my beliefs. So, again, I would have ignored this thread.
After I settled down, I spent some serious time on learning how to focus on my healing. I dropped the rope, picked it up a few times, and dropped it again. True “Mirror-work” was hard. I wanted to stamp my feet and put closure on his shoulders. He was the bad guy, not me.
I understand how some newbies might feel a bit uncomfortable with this discussion. I know I would have been, not bc the discussion is blaming the LBS but only due to the fact after being gaslit for so long I blamed myself for everything.
Again, I’m scratching my head, not everyone here is months from bomb-drop. If you’re not ready for mirror work, that’s fine. Focus on Airmid’s list for newbies. When you’re ready, find this thread and continue with learning how to get to the next level.
I would hope that healing is your goal whether or not you reconcile your marriage.
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I agree with a lot of what is being said on thsi thread. I am right at the point you are talking about barely 1 yr post BD. NYM on another thread said she didnt think my wife had an MLC. I didn't like it, I didn't/don't agree with her but it did cause me to take a good long hard look at my marriage and our issues. LP had another one a few weeks back that triggered me a little. Both times I went into a little spin but it's also those times when I have made the most personal growth.
I do realize we all heal at different times and rates and I can see where someone would get triggered. But I do think most if not all of the people here especially old timers are here with love and compassion for all of us LBSers.
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We don't all have to agree! We weren't all married to the same person, and didn't all have the same marriage.
All relationships are filled with challenges, even good ones. This is what we are on earth for, to learn and grow!
I think this is different from MLC. No matter where you are in the process, and if and when you are ready, this can be a wonderful opportunity to expand your idea of what a relationship can be.
No one deserves the extreme emotional abuse of a MLCer, for someone to repeatedly and viciously harm them until the point of destabilizing. This has nothing to do with the LBS, period. The MLCer owns this energetically, 100 percent.
Please, find trauma support. Once you are okay, feeling safe and good and solid in yourself, then this is the time to look beyond this traumatic event you have survived. Then you can think of what a good relationship might look and feel like for you.
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I'm concerned that this thread is reinforcing MLCers blame game in the potentially damaged psyche of the early stage LBS.
I like many other LBSs suffered more than one BD and after BD1 I accepted a lot of responsibility for my W's MLC and her first PA. I tried to accept the blame on the logic that if my formerly loving wife had acted so against her previous nature and beliefs that I must have somehow broken her and I had done this unknowingly and without my W telling me.
I worked to be a better husband and father, using CBT to address my own issues.
My W like many other MLCers had a 'return' only to have a second PA and BD again, with me again being blamed as the cause, with our M being the trigger for her behaviours. My work on myself and changes I made were seen as too little too late, 'You had already messed me up'.
Nothing I could do would fix in her what I had not broken.
My MLC W felt like she was broken by our M... That her MLC was not to do with her life choices, lack of personal confidence, FOO issues, unresolved grief over bereavements we had suffered, etc.
I believe childhood echoes forever and the seeds of MLC are sown in childhood. My W was not the one person on planet earth who was without emotional issues from FOO, etc when we met and feel in love. To me MLC seems far too big to have been formed in secret in a M that was not abusive or cold and indeed had many beautiful times, not least being blessed with four amazing children.
The potential for an MLC is in us all and doesnt belong to others... MLC is an internal battle and I believe almost nothing to do with the partner who is blamed... this blame game is selfish, lazy and too simple an explanation, but it is so much easier for the MLCer than facing the pain.
How many of our LBS brothers and sisters have sat, stunned like me thinking 'Was I really that bad to live with?', 'Am I now reaping what I unknowingly sowed'? 'Do I deserve this?'
This I know is a very dark place to inhabit. And with time and sincerity and a lot of work I have separated out our M issues from her MLC and now feel confident that the issues within our M are tiny compared to the hugeness of an MLC. This took much hard work to accomplish and I too am concerned that those who are closer to BD than me will read some of this thread as a validation of MLC blaming.
MLC is amongst the most major of depressive episodes, with the extreme behaviours exhibited by the MLCer more akin to a serious psychological breakdown than to the degradation of a stagnant marriage. The difference between a relationship breakdown and the extremes of MLC are huge and the two situations incomparable IMHO.
I did not break her and nor did our M, indeed I believe that the M prevented her from an earlier MLC as I tried to hold us together, tried to help her to fix herself by being strong for two.
This cannot work as the MLC battle is within my W and within each MLCer. LBS are not to blame, M is not the trigger.
I believe MLC starts very early, in my case long before there is even any replay behaviours, it starts slow and creeps up on the MLCer, until eventually they see themselves as being justified in outrageous behaviours as they are married to a monster.
None of this is fair or true and I for one dont accept this twisted version of reality, I accept my faults and will continue to work on them, but I refuse to accept the blame for the hell of MLC visited upon me.
We are all the lens through which we see the world and the MLCer's lens is very distorted and dark, it is dangerous to accept their vision of the world as reality.
LW
LW - Thank you for this.
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For what it’s worth, to anyone, while my post count is in the low triple digits, I’ve been registered here since 2016 and was grappling with h’s MLC (without identifying it as MLC) for at least a year or two before then. So despite my low post count here and the appearance of being new both to MLC and this board, ;) I’m so not either.
After the first major jaw-dropping BD, it took me a few months to find this community. I posted maybe a handful of times and then got sucked back into the maw of offline coping. I also jumped boards because at the time, in 2016, I saw some interpersonal dynamics here that seemed very caustic, inappropriate, and not at all helpful or even pertinent.
I see those in this current time too. Like, those of you who single each other out and call names or nitpick, really as a decades-long veteran of online communities and general etiquette, I don’t understand why you don’t take that to PMs. The public jostling is a turnoff. I’m not here to school anyone, only to read and to offer my own experience or knowledge if I have an answer that might help anyone at any stage of coping or recovery or whatever emotional state. Not exactly here to gain followers or win points or approval, for good or bad or smart or anything else, if that makes sense. So I don’t want to watch anyone here lord it over anyone else, for any reason. You know?
I post only if I’m stuck or stunned by my own situation, or if I read something in yours that either speaks to my heart or clearly calls to it for an answer, any answer, and I feel I might have an answer that can help you. I treasure some of you here, more than I can say, and even so, sometimes I am so tired and spun that I don’t have any words at all and so, I don’t actually say it to you. I think and hope that certain of you know who you are. And I’m grateful when anyone here responds to what I’ve said in any thread. There’s no one here I detest or routinely disagree with, and there’s no one here that I’ve ever blocked. And I block people all the time, on other platforms, for any reason at all. But please be nice, to each other, no matter how long you’ve been here. Otherwise it gets uncomfortable and triggering ESPECIALLY for newbies or those who have endured anything similar — witnessed or directly — in and from the MLC spouses they are mourning and still hurt by.
What I really want to say here is that I appreciate the thread and discourse. The infighting or backbiting bugs me and is confusing but I generally skip over it, understanding that you and you, or you and you, or you and you and you, have more history disagreeing with each other than I know about. And also, it’s interesting to me at this point to reflect on how any of this “old timer” discourse or debate would feel to me if I was brand new to any of this — the board, the community, or even just the new and unwanted awareness of MLC as the issue in my m or life.
For what it’s worth, now several years into awareness and coping and even sometimes now managing to feel a new and still wobbly “normal” again? I find I absolutely cannot remember what it was like when it all first started for me. I have mountains of paper journals and email archives troubling over it and all the pain, from those first days and weeks and months and years. But I haven’t read any of them since I wrote them. I’m not sure when I ever will, or what to do with them in the event that I never do. I stopped rereading old journals when all of this became blisteringly clear for what it was and is.
What I can tell you, as old-timer to any newbie, is that it’s important to keep moving forward, little by little, and do all you can to never get too stuck in this. The concept of MLC has to exit your thinking at some point and be replaced by thoughts and personal loving disciplines that you develop on your own because they *fulfill you* and *make you happy*. Whatever this all is and whyever it happened to you, someone else’s rotten choices and sh!te behaviors are just not at all your fault. Own only what is your own, to own. Don’t buy the MLCer’s oft-told lie that it’s because of you that they stopped being a kind, reasonable, responsible, and loving person and spouse. If you’ve lost yourself amidst all the mistreatment and factual abuse, you have got to find yourself again. You’ve got to pry yourself out of their clouded carnival mirror and know who You Are.
Everything gets much clearer, cleaner, and safer after we do that. Not to say it isn’t painful, as we come to know “Myself” again, or that it isn’t painful even after we’ve established that we know our own “I Am”. It still hurts and is still lonely. But ultimately also much safer, calmer, more steady and resolute.
There will always be questions, I think. And there will always be answers — probably many. You’ll know both through trial and error and by instant recognition which answer or answers work for you. Trust. Trust in the process — and in YOUR process. Trust in YOU.
One last food for thought. Everything written here by anyone is just that: food for thought. We don’t always arrive at instant conclusions, no matter how clearly an answer or anecdote or opinion is written. That’s why it’s said in these support communities to read and keep reading, read and reread, write, and then go back and read and reread some more. The same exact post or thread may strike a bell for you even years after first time you read it, even if you wrote it yourself. And even if it perplexed or vexed or didn’t apply at all, the first time you said or saw it.
That thing about when you are ready, the teacher will appear?
Sometimes the teacher is us, ourselves. You, yourself, I mean.
If you are new and reading this? Keep going. Keep reading. Keep processing. Live your life the best you can, whether lonely or painful or so confused. Just keep going.
IT WILL GET BETTER. In some time, down the road, you won’t remember what Now feels like anymore. It’s like how women forget the outlandish waves of agony of childbirthing. At some point down the road, You will not be in this much pain anymore. You’ll have survived all the crests and sickening pits of anguish and fear. And You will have learned how to make your boundaries known and clear, so that the sickening pits don’t happen very often anymore, if at all, in any part of your life.
You’ll be stronger. And wiser, and more matured, and different. And You also will still be very much You.
Keep going. It will all get better.
That other person’s choices and behavior and mistreatment aren’t “caused” by You. Period.
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Terra - WORD!!!
Love, love, love the comparison of BD to childbirth. A personal hell that we’d never choose to re-live - but somehow, we manage to survive it (?!)
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;D To clarify — because I just went back to reread my recent posts here, and saw that in this thread! I’d said it’s jarring to look back on old journals! — the one referenced in that post earlier up thread is an old journal that turned up during a housecleaning some years ago. I was stupefied to find it outside of the MLC journals; it was from our first years together, and the h described was so different from the h of the past several years. I read it and photographed the one entry.
I saw that photograph again recently, since coming back to this site six or so months ago. It’s STILL shocking, how good and reasonable and really values-driven he was. Kind of painful, but still important to see. That one entry turns up periodically, outside its original paper and ink context, as if to remind me that no: he wasn’t always in MLC, wasn’t always weird. H was actually devoted to you for a long time. That photo turns up and I am ...chastened by it. Because I wrote it, and what I wrote then was true. And it’s still true of him then, even if it is not true of him now.
But I know the old MLC journals are also true. And those were very painful to write, and I don’t want to go back there. Not even a few weeks back.
Anyway. Thank you for witnessing my realization and self-correction or clarification. “Old journals” is vague: there are pre-MLC old journals, and MLC old journals. Both are now painful to read, so I generally won’t. If a pre-MLC journal literally falls into my lap, which despite my best organizational efforts does actually happen occasionally, I have considered that a push from God to pay attention and reflect honestly. I will read one of those if I have to. But I will pour a glass of wine first and sit down somewhere comfortable because I know I will cry buckets.
The old MLC journals, even the one I finished writing ten days ago, I will avoid every one of those like the plague.
It’s a blessing wherever you’ve written down the truth, your truth. I know it’s not time for me to read most of the MLC journaling; not the handwritten stuff. Not yet. I’m glad I’ve written here, and somehow I am ok rereading here. The books, though, not yet.
Thanks again for witnessing.
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My IC once said, as we were exploring my W's infidelity, "You cheated too. You used the Playstation as a mistress."
I disagree with your therapist. You no doubt tried to fix the issue, but after years of neglect you simply found a way to bring yourself comfort and distraction. That may sound like the definition of cheating, but I still disagree. You were with who you wanted to be with. She didn't want to be with you so you found something else to do that didn't involve replacing her.
I went through the same thing. I had my own issues but they were oppressed and dominated by xw's issues. Because of it, I had an MLT. I had a life that didn't include her to distract me from the pain of abandonment.
I tried, you tried. We didn't cheat or abandon them when so many have and it would have been so easy to justify. How are you supposed to "work with" someone who doesn't want to be worked with? So you got a hobby you over indulged in.
All my actions were in reaction to xws abandonment. I played video games too and I refuse to bear any blame for it. She sat in bed cheating on me in her ipad and phone. I was shooting a 10 year old kid in Russia or something in call of duty.
Tell your therapist to call me, I'll set him straight.
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My IC once said, as we were exploring my W's infidelity, "You cheated too. You used the Playstation as a mistress."
I disagree with your therapist. You no doubt tried to fix the issue, but after years of neglect you simply found a way to bring yourself comfort and distraction. That may sound like the definition of cheating, but I still disagree. You were with who you wanted to be with. She didn't want to be with you so you found something else to do that didn't involve replacing her.
I went through the same thing. I had my own issues but they were oppressed and dominated by xw's issues. Because of it, I had an MLT. I had a life that didn't include her to distract me from the pain of abandonment.
I tried, you tried. We didn't cheat or abandon them when so many have and it would have been so easy to justify. How are you supposed to "work with" someone who doesn't want to be worked with? So you got a hobby you over indulged in.
All my actions were in reaction to xws abandonment. I played video games too and I refuse to bear any blame for it. She sat in bed cheating on me in her ipad and phone. I was shooting a 10 year old kid in Russia or something in call of duty.
Tell your therapist to call me, I'll set him straight.
Gman, I certainly appreciate that perspective. I've definitely vacillated back and forth about that statement, and I've had numerous conversations with friends about it. You're right. I tried. I made my needs extremely clear when it came to intimacy. After years of being shot down, gas lighted, and watching this beautiful creature that I loved above all else walk around nude in front of me and lay in bed nude but not let me touch her, I eventually retreated into a world online. And the funny thing is, I only did it at night after she went to bed. I never did it while she was awake.
I also think I had an MLT, or at least some type of depression. My mlcw constantly says I came home one day a completely different person. And I don't disagree with her. But something brought about that change, which is why I have a difficult time not thinking that sometimes certain circumstances in the marriage might lead to mlc. I think that her withholding caused me a great deal of pain and I withdrew and became depressed, angry, and different. I didn't cheat, I didn't spend money, I didn't get a sport car, I didn't go out drinking. I stayed home and continued to try and be the best husband I could be given the circumstances. But I definitely withdrew emotionally, and left her feeling abandoned and betrayed. I can certainly validate her feelings on that subject, because I felt the same way.
I appreciate your offer to call my therapist. She's a woman, not a man, so I always try to give her perspective special consideration. However, we've had several knock-down, drag-out fights about men and women. I feel like she's learned some things from me that she didn't understand about men. ;D
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Terra I really agree with you.
These type of discussions are like asking what you were wearing when someone assaulted you.
No one here caused MLC. If anything the one thing we all share in common is taking too much responsibility for the behavior of another person and not being able to separate ourselves from their actions.
People often end up fixating and focusing on people or events with mixed messages. I’m afraid this forum often does this to people it should be trying to protect, keeping them hooked just on the topic itself by stating at the same time that the MLCer is wrong but a little right, that it isn’t about the marriage but maybe a little bit, that the LBS isn’t to blame but be sure to do mirror work and get a life, that you should live as if they aren’t coming back but here are things that might make them want to come back.
I actually do not think you could cause a heathy person to have a MLC even if you tried.
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I totally agree with Velika.....you couldn’t make a healthy person have a MLC if you tried.
As for how much of it I will take the blame for.....this one thing....I didn’t fix myself first. That is the only part I can ever own.
H was avoidant, he suppresses emotions, he was and is a slave to perfectionism, he wouldn’t open up and talk to me.....dear god I tried....I tried for 13 years, I read every marriage book and communication thing I could find.
H wasn’t going to even think about addressing it until he couldn’t suppress his emotions and he was knee deep in crisis.
H isn’t going to heal unless he decides to heal....and not a moment sooner.
Nothing I can do or say will change it.
My reaction at BD was partially glad H was finally fed up with hiding, and being conflict avoidant and ignoring the growing elephant in the room.
H never gave his opinions, would go along with anything and then be resentful later.....I always caught onto it....I would ask him the same question 5 times if he was lying....until he would finally admit what he really thought.
Dear god I tried everything I knew or could read to convince him it was safe enough to live beyond survival mechanisms.
Yet here I am.....just like everyone else.
No marriage didn’t cause it. It was always there....it finally grew big enough nothing I could do could compensate for it.
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Thank you Couragedearheart,
I agree with everything you just said.
No marriage didn’t cause it. It was always there....
It would have happened, no matter who they were married to.
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Couragedearheart
Your journey sounds very much like mine. Life with an avoidant person is excruciatingly difficult. I know, I have my own.
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My therapist told me early on that with his childhood it’s amazing he didn’t break down much sooner. It was my stability and ‘normal ness’ that helped him cope for so many years.
I’m reading Pete Walker’s book on cPTSD and it’s really opening my eyes to the 4Fs of childhood coping mechanisms. He has all four and I would see anger/dissociative episodes/flight into work or sport/fawn into presents and doing things for people. All in retrospect of course.
This was nothing to do with me. I’ve been pretzeling myself for six years to try to keep him in contact with the kids and said everything I can to try to fix this but my emotions actually made him run faster. Now his mother has died and he won’t speak to his father I am very concerned that workaholism is making him physically very ill.
There’s nothing I can do except give my children a fun and loving childhood and try to prevent the cycle repeating xxx
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Sometimes I'm just surprised when I re-read a thread and see what people take away from it.
Could anyone show me where it is asserted in the thread that a mlc is caused by the lbs?
Or
That an lbs could make a healthy person or even a sick person have a mlc
Or
That the lbs was responsible for the actions of the MLCer.
I thought we were speaking with a focus on the responses and actions of the lbs, how those things impact the lbs throughout the relationship and can impact avenues of healing, the whys and the choices, the future, NOT focusing on the MLCer and how the lbs might or could impact the MLCer or the course of the crisis and certainly not the ability to create or cause the crisis. I
I must have missed something. Either that or its impossible to have a discussion that doesn't center around focusing on the MLCer anymore.
Genuinely perplexed,
Lp
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Here is the original question -
“Is my fractured marriage a fallout of MLC, or, was it a catalyst that helped launch MLC in my spouse?”
In discussing if the fractured marriage could be a catalyst for MLC, I don’t see how it’s a stretch for some to interpret this as a question/examination of whether an LBS’s faults in a marriage were a contributing factor, helping to tip a person predisposed to MLC into the crisis. I can understand why some meandered off into this direction on this thread simply based on the original question, I also don’t see how that puts the focus on the MLCer, I interpret these comments as a healthy dose of strength in recognizing that while no marriage is perfect and we all play roles in the demise of a relationship, the LBS did not cause and is not responsible for the MLC or the MLCer and his/her choices. I am a little over 2.5 years and I still appreciate being reminded I didn’t cause this crisis. I took so much on myself in the beginning and my self esteem is still not fully recovered.
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I am only new here but I feel like this forum invites different perspectives so I would like to give my 2 cents worth.
I myself feel that all though the vast majority of mlc follow the same script that every mlc or mlc’er is different in some way, so I think it is certainly possible that in a marriage/relationship that the lbs may have contributed albeit unknowingly to their spouses mlc.
I personally think I may have contributed to my W mlc in some way, I have my own thoughts that I won’t share here but I think I bare some of the responsibility. But I can’t be held responsible for the choices that my W has made since before and after our separation, I believe that’s all on her.
That’s just my very unprofessional opinion. I’m not stating fact I’m only going off what I have learned interacting with my WW and reading as much about mlc as I can.
It doesn’t matter to me if anyone agrees or disagrees because I think it’s my right to voice an opinion and everyone else has a right to agree or disagree. I hope no offence is taken by anyone reading.
That’s what I liked about this forum when I first came here and I hope that doesn’t change.
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Yes and here is Acorn's clarification response.
"As I have stated in post #1, I agree that MLC is not about the marriage or LBS. Deep seated issues are of the MLCer alone. Internal pressure had been building for decades and a trigger, or triggers, would blow the lid off at some point - ‘Hello, MLC, meet H!’ Well, that’s how it was with my H, anyhow.
It is my understanding that triggers (this term is better suited to our discussion than ‘catalyst’?) are the agents that got the MLC ball rolling and have nothing to do with the issues MLCer is carrying deep within."
So she clearly stated the mlc is not a result of the marriage or the lbs. So why meander down that road?
The way people are addressing the question and focusing on the MLCer:
Take Milly's response. She is talking about herself, her actions, her words, her behaviors, her responses. How she is focused on growth and healing. She is the subject. Her MLCer is not.
Vs other responses such as
I refuse to accept the blame for the hell of MLC visited upon me.
It's dangerous to accept their vision of the world as reality.
I accepted responsibility for her ...
Every response is based on the MLCer, their words, their actions, responding and reacting to them. Just as is the repeated strong assertions that we didn't cause the crisis. The focus is on the MLCer. A dead end since nothing there is within the control of the lbs.
Yes, it may be reassuring earlier to repeat that mantra.
But later on it loses its value when one doesn't need that reassurance because it's a given. When ones focus naturally perhaps shifts to the value in what is within our influence which is ones self. When one is looking not at the MLCer but squarely at herself and the future with or without standing. As time goes by not everything in life is framed in relation to the mlc. Simplistically, at a certain stage old timers usually, often don't build their whole discourse around my MLCer did x so I did y. Reacting.
I'm not certain I'm communicating my thoughts clearly though. But the above combined with knowing where Acorn is at in her process and her detailed other writings as well as her recon tell me she is long past being focused on the actions of the MLCer and more focused on later stage concerns like self growth and healing, like not experiencing this again, like suggesting one does not have to allow mlc to define her life, like one doesn't have to live in pain year in and year out. That's why she poses some questions that are difficult to answer and seemingly trigger some people. The questions make one think, and interest even an old timer like me who doesn't maintain a thread or come here daily. The interest is precisely because she is attempting to discuss more than just mlc, more than simplistic truisms and mantras in my opinion.
Lp
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Little Wing, I agree with you and what some others are saying about the nature of this thread perhaps being harmful to LBSers.
When people post their personal thoughts, I find it very disturbing that LP takes it upon herself to point out all the things that she sees are "wrong" with that person's point of view because they don't agree with how she sees it.
Do others think it is appropriate for another member to dissect each paragraph of someone else's thoughts and in bold state why they are wrong?
Express how you feel about a topic. We all see things very differently and there really is not a right or wrong response but putting another person's post down in this manner is not right.
It doesn't add value to the discussion, but to me appears to just want to shown some kind of superiority of another's point of view over someone who has a different idea.
Sorry xyzcf. I cannot see anywhere that LP is stating that other people are wrong. It is clear that LP uses bold to show her response and nothing more as she clearly chose to comment (as is her right) on LW's sentences; it is a technique to identify her own thoughts and nothing more.
There is no element of superiority here and she is expressing how she feels about a topic; furthemore LP is adding historical value and information.
I am not quite sure why you think she is making personal attacks because much of her language is in third person and genreralised.
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I agree, MLC is about the issues within the MLCer......What if fractured marriage was a catalyst that helped launch MLC in some cases?......Might it be a question LBS should ask herself unflinchingly? That would involve taking off the rose-coloured glasses and lifting the MLC excuse blanket that may be covering up an elephant or two.
Trust me, it is painful to ask that question. It made me feel excruciatingly vulnerable..... to look at our marriage in complete honesty and humility, and to see if I was using MLC to justify his emotional divorce from me....that kind of delusional thinking stops you from getting a grip on reality of your marital situation.
Have you ever asked yourself the question:
“Is my fractured marriage a fallout of MLC, or, was it a catalyst that helped launch MLC in my spouse?
I thought I'd go back to the post that started the thread, where Acorn wonders if considering the question is a healthy bit of the process of healing for some.
It doesn't perplex me at all that the question raises issues about is it MLC or LBS denial, cause and effect, context, responsibility, doubt, chicken and egg....I also note that Acorn says the question was an excruciating one for her, that it made her feel vulnerable. And that her conclusion....the former not the latter....was useful to her as a kind of check-in question for her own judgment and reality.
Barbie talks about 'hearing through a wound'. I see that in my reactions and in others here. Which is ok and leaves me feeling nothing but compassion for how deep the wounds can be even years later. The need to honour that tbh. And that maybe the wounds and our way of dealing with those wounds is different too. Perhaps just asking oneself the question is part of healing? Perhaps that is why this is such an energetic thread.
My initial reaction was anger. Just as if someone had said my short skirt was the cause of being raped. Then it was confusion as I tried to apply logic to an illogical experience driven by a person who did not communicate their half. Then doubting my ability to reach a solid conclusion which triggered some residue of being gaslighted by an emotionally unhealthy person who said and did weird things. Which in my case kicked off a last bit of PTSD type feelings for a few days that pointed me towards a bit of work I needed to do still. A deep feeling of WTFness and unsafeness. Which I resented feeling lol.
Most of us were gaslit for a long time, directly or indirectly.
Most of us were blamed for a situation over which, often for a long time, we had very little control.
Most of us lost or fought hard to protect things and people that were of central importance to our previous lives and wellbeing.
Most of us took a level of psychological or emotional damage, again over a period of time, that brought us here and brought us into often intensive therapy sometimes for the first time in our lives.
Most of us felt at times isolated and bewildered by the experience.
Most of us found it almost impossible to reconcile our previous experience of our spouse with our present one.
Most of us worked very hard to find a way to navigate through it to something better regardless.
This is not an insignificant thing.
Making peace with our own life experience is part of acceptance and healing. And that includes sorting our own wheat from the chaff and trying to get to a point when we feel we can trust our own judgment again, whatever that is. Imho there is an inherent tricksy line between focusing on the experience of MLC in our lives vs focusing on the MLC or MLCer. Most of us probably start with the latter and gradually move towards the former as we stumble forward on our own recovery path. And that comes with time and distance too.
The uncomfortable questions can imho be part of righting our own mental ship for some of us, deciding on our own story. Validating people's necessary right to be where they are in their own process, with all the messy bits, is an act of supportive compassion for people who have been gaslit.
It often seems to me that the beginning of the MLC process has more common ground and that the path becomes more individual as it progresses. Perhaps bc the issues that drive it are individual and so how people 'do' their own crisis becomes more individual? And that maybe the same is true for the LBS. That we come here and find common ground, but that how we choose to move forward and what we think helps do that is more and more individual?
So, I accept that other LBS could understandably criticise my rumination and isolation as unhelpful, that I should GAL and stop thinking about MLC after so many years when my m/h is long gone. Or that others might say that NC is a self-fulfilling prophecy that limits the opportunity to see my xh with compassion or recognise the reality of a person in crisis. With time though, I just think - rightly or wrongly - that it is necessary for each of us to find our own path through and out. That there is no one size fits all for either MLCer or LBS. Perhaps the only extra advantage the older timers have is the ability to look back and see the effects of their own choices or the paths not taken.
I don't need to be right.
I just need to be right enough for me.
The heart of my healing - and I speak only for me - was not about the loss of my m.
It was/is about feeling profoundly unsafe alone in a world that suddenly could hurt me and turn up into down without me being able to do much about it. It left me with a deep wound of 'I can't' and a feeling of helplessness for the first time in my life.
Working out what was and is real and reliably trustworthy in my own judgment is part of my recovery. And what is still a risk or unsafe.
And that process includes evaluating the question mark that was suddenly slammed over 20 years of my own life experience.
And for some, this question and this thread might be a necessary part of their own process.
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I don't need to be right.
I just need to be right enough for me.
I'm just going to take liberties with this T and amend the words to the following:
Whatever happened and happens I don't need to be completely whole. I just need to be whole enough for me at any given time.
Reflecting, considering, responding and self searching are all part of our growth.
I know that my marriage was fractured before BD but we were both responsible for that fracturing. H's initial replay activities started well before BD (about 7 yrs before) and then OW exacerbated BD. At BD I remember saying to H that it didn't matter what the state of our marriage was - he had never expressed how he felt and so I didn't know he was struggling but nothing gave him the right to destroy our marriage in such a way.
Sadly I never sustained that anger and level of response - and did all the wrong things.
Now I don't care to look back, I have done and continue to work on me and all that matters is that I am whole and free to choose what path I take.
That part of my life is no more; I have agonised over it long enough but it has taken time. That said - it is always a good thing to reflect, consider and evaluate especially as time progresses because we are always learning.
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Ah, song, i prefer your version :)
Whole is more accurate than right :)......good enough is good enough isn't it?
I do accept that my xh, based on his behaviour, believed that our m was not only fractured but worthless, that I was worthless at best to him and at worst was the problem causing his unhappiness an an impediment to his future happiness. And believed some strange circular logic (that I have seen other post about) that was something like well, if I could break our m it proves that it was already broken..... ::)
I also know that this was not true even if it became true in his head. It just wasn't....not to anyone else including the previous version of himself who frankly would have said the exact opposite for 18 years.
It wasn't true.
Thank you, those few words have just helped me with something I am working on here this week, hopefully a last bit of looking back to look forwards xxx
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Hi Songanddance and Treasur, great posts, I feel the same in that my W never expressed how she was feeling in the marriage, so that’s totally on her.
Also to just walk away saying she feels nothing and to never try to repair the marriage or make any effort whatsoever, that’s also on her and something she will have to live with.
You are an inspiration to me, thank you 😊
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My IC once said, as we were exploring my W's infidelity, "You cheated too. You used the Playstation as a mistress."
I disagree with your therapist. You no doubt tried to fix the issue, but after years of neglect you simply found a way to bring yourself comfort and distraction. That may sound like the definition of cheating, but I still disagree. You were with who you wanted to be with. She didn't want to be with you so you found something else to do that didn't involve replacing her.
I went through the same thing. I had my own issues but they were oppressed and dominated by xw's issues. Because of it, I had an MLT. I had a life that didn't include her to distract me from the pain of abandonment.
I tried, you tried. We didn't cheat or abandon them when so many have and it would have been so easy to justify. How are you supposed to "work with" someone who doesn't want to be worked with? So you got a hobby you over indulged in.
All my actions were in reaction to xws abandonment. I played video games too and I refuse to bear any blame for it. She sat in bed cheating on me in her ipad and phone. I was shooting a 10 year old kid in Russia or something in call of duty.
Tell your therapist to call me, I'll set him straight.
Gman, I certainly appreciate that perspective. I've definitely vacillated back and forth about that statement, and I've had numerous conversations with friends about it. You're right. I tried. I made my needs extremely clear when it came to intimacy. After years of being shot down, gas lighted, and watching this beautiful creature that I loved above all else walk around nude in front of me and lay in bed nude but not let me touch her, I eventually retreated into a world online. And the funny thing is, I only did it at night after she went to bed. I never did it while she was awake.
I also think I had an MLT, or at least some type of depression. My mlcw constantly says I came home one day a completely different person. And I don't disagree with her. But something brought about that change, which is why I have a difficult time not thinking that sometimes certain circumstances in the marriage might lead to mlc. I think that her withholding caused me a great deal of pain and I withdrew and became depressed, angry, and different. I didn't cheat, I didn't spend money, I didn't get a sport car, I didn't go out drinking. I stayed home and continued to try and be the best husband I could be given the circumstances. But I definitely withdrew emotionally, and left her feeling abandoned and betrayed. I can certainly validate her feelings on that subject, because I felt the same way.
I appreciate your offer to call my therapist. She's a woman, not a man, so I always try to give her perspective special consideration. However, we've had several knock-down, drag-out fights about men and women. I feel like she's learned some things from me that she didn't understand about men. ;D
After I typed that I thought that your therapist could have been a woman! lol. When you state your needs and someone else won't respond to them, you're only left with a few choices. We obviously choose to stand with our spouses rather than divorce or cheat on them. While I don't agree with it, after you've tried to "do the work" so to speak, I could see cheating in this case being less of a crime than to do it when never having reached out to the other spouse at all.
A reaction behavior, like we engaged in, is something I've always called a symptomatic behavior. It's symptomatic of you not getting your needs met by your partner. The delicate thing I don't like about symptomatic behaviors is that they can be thrown back onto the victim and they can even be retroconned into being the perpetrator. That's what happened a lot with me.
There was a famous argument between me and my xw, because she showed up three hours early to my apartment when we were dating. I answered the door in my boxer shorts and a tshirt, with a rag in my hand. I was clearly cleaning in anticipation of her arrival. In her journal though, she tore me to shreds about how gross I was and so on. I'd maintain that she showed up three hours early, unannounced and I should be cut some slack and she'd respond with "but you knew I was coming". Every time I'd defend myself, she'd move the goal post further away from me to the point where I should have cleaned a week ago and sat dressed on my couch from 6am that morning waiting on her.
Sadly, that's how I knew her love for me was genuine. She couldn't deal with the emotions and the vulnerability, so she kept trying to turn me into someone deplorable and unlovable, in her head. I think that's what drives a lot of the monster we read about here on the forum.
But anyway, that stings and I can understand how you probably over analyzed the comment from your therapist. That's a bit of victim blaming and shaming. You did the right thing and were left with unmet needs and you found a way to fill them, within your own set of values and boundaries.
Anyway, I'm sorry you went through that. It's something I know all too well.
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You did the right thing and were left with unmet needs and you found a way to fill them, within your own set of values and boundaries.
AND!
Now you know that some people, and maybe particularly women, see Playstation and video gaming as a type of betrayal of marriage, or at the very least, intrusive on relationship or intimacy, and equivalent to stepping out with an actual other person.
It doesn’t mean you were or are a bad person or a bad spouse. It does mean that there are many alternate views on what is innocuous and what isn’t, in the ways we cope with our marital or relational fragility.
I’ve never known anyone to be happy that their person opted for screen time instead of time spent together doing anything else. Just saying.
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Terra, I don't disagree with you at all.
In our cases (disillusioned and i) it wasn't our first choice. We much rather would have been doing something with our wives. That's why I was saying it was symptomatic behavior of being rejected or abandoned first.
It's everything in moderation. Your interests should never get to the point they exclude your partner.
I was just thinking that if disillusioned's therapist had heard his side of the story, she wouldn't have equated it with cheating.
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It’s absolutely not cheating. Because a PlayStation is not capable of responding.
It is, however, neglect.
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Mego, did your Playstation not have Internet and group games? Something on that Playstation certainly can respond. Just saying..... ( video games are a whole other discussion)
Back to the question. It implies that the marriage was possibly fractured before MLC and thus a catalyst, or even trigger for MLC. If the marriage wasn't fractured, could it still be a catalyst or trigger for MLC? IT seems to me it could be. What if the LBS was just so great, the MLCER couldn't stand it and went over the edge to a crappy person that made them feel better about themself? That could make a good marriage a trigger. What if the marriage was great, but the MLCER didn't know how to deal with calm and wonderful because it isn't how they grew up so they had to shake up their life. Still a trigger. What if a perfect marriage is what caused the mlcer to do a slow boil because they didn't think they could maintain it for however many more years?Still a trigger and still not a fractured marriage, but a fractured person in a marriage and the marriage triggered mlc. In fact, being married to ANYONE might have been the trigger to MLC. Who is to say having a perfect, non fractured marriage didn't CAUSE the mlc?
Well, we can't say so. The only person who could answer that is our own personal mlcer/non mlcer/WAS, whatever you want to call that person who decided they didn't want to be married to us or maybe anyone, or wanted to have their married cake and single cake, too or just had no idea what they wanted just didn't want what they had. A lot of them dont seem to really know why, just that they "had" to. And if they lied to us in the beginning, how can you be sure they aren't lying any other time? (Rhetorical question, requires no answer)
The answer to the original question can be a simple "Yep, I thought about that" or "Nope, never crossed my mind". And yet NO ONE answered that way. Interesting, isn't it?
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Mego, did your Playstation not have Internet and group games? Something on that Playstation certainly can respond. Just saying..... ( video games are a whole other discussion)
It's the frame of mind though.. I just wanted something to do that blocked out feeling abandoned in my own marriage. I never would have thought to try and meet someone for illicit purposes anywhere, online or real life. In fact, one of the reasons I'm in the job I am now is because I wanted to get off a campus where I was being um, tempted by students and faculty. Cheating never entered my mind. However, if you're going to cheat, I'm sure anyone can find any way to exploit something to do it.
Back to the question. It implies that the marriage was possibly fractured before MLC and thus a catalyst, or even trigger for MLC. If the marriage wasn't fractured, could it still be a catalyst or trigger for MLC? IT seems to me it could be. What if the LBS was just so great, the MLCER couldn't stand it and went over the edge to a crappy person that made them feel better about themself? That could make a good marriage a trigger. What if the marriage was great, but the MLCER didn't know how to deal with calm and wonderful because it isn't how they grew up so they had to shake up their life. Still a trigger. What if a perfect marriage is what caused the mlcer to do a slow boil because they didn't think they could maintain it for however many more years?Still a trigger and still not a fractured marriage, but a fractured person in a marriage and the marriage triggered mlc. In fact, being married to ANYONE might have been the trigger to MLC. Who is to say having a perfect, non fractured marriage didn't CAUSE the mlc?
You're mostly describing my marriage here and what's happened to me when I've tried dating afterwards. I don't think it was what caused the MLC. I know my xw loved me and we found a way to make it work despite her issues, we wouldn't have made it as long as we did. Although I think it made the MLC and the running worse.
People who have had a crappy life have trouble being vulnerable and emotionally available. Many of them have repressed their feelings so far, they rely on sex, alcohol, horror movies, obsessions with serial killers, high risk sports activities, self harm ect to regulate their own moods and emotions.
That's what drove the resentment in most of my marriage. My ex loved me and that made her feel vulnerable and she resented me for it. When her mom died, she couldn't deal with it and she threw the baby out with the bathwater. So she ran out and found a guy she's not in love with, who even hits her, because it's less risky, emotionally for her. I've kinda been hung up on that one for a while.
The answer for everyone is different though. I can't imagine that any two stories look a like. They may be similar on the surface, but the causes are all their own. We always go full circle with these discussions though. Were they unhappy anyway and just walked out? Was it us? It's hard to say and I can only say I know what I know about my own marriage.
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Back to the question. It implies that the marriage was possibly fractured before MLC and thus a catalyst, or even trigger for MLC. If the marriage wasn't fractured, could it still be a catalyst or trigger for MLC? IT seems to me it could be. What if the LBS was just so great, the MLCER couldn't stand it and went over the edge to a crappy person that made them feel better about themself? That could make a good marriage a trigger. What if the marriage was great, but the MLCER didn't know how to deal with calm and wonderful because it isn't how they grew up so they had to shake up their life. Still a trigger. What if a perfect marriage is what caused the mlcer to do a slow boil because they didn't think they could maintain it for however many more years?Still a trigger and still not a fractured marriage, but a fractured person in a marriage and the marriage triggered mlc. In fact, being married to ANYONE might have been the trigger to MLC. Who is to say having a perfect, non fractured marriage didn't CAUSE the
Actually that’s a good point. Self sabotage is a component of a number of psychological conditions and envy and competition with a spouse can be a component of Narcissism.
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Just to be clear - most of my time on the Playstation (to the point of obsession at some points) was spent gaming with RL friends. When I was gaming with strangers, it was rarely with women and it was always over after the game session ended. In all the years I was married, I never once created and/or maintained an online relationship with anyone.
Of course, I can see everyone's point here - my IC, Gman, Terra, Mego and everyone else with a perspective on it. Ultimately, I am responsible for my actions and behavior, and the time I spent on the Playstation instead of with my wife was neglect. The causes I attribute to my withdrawal do not negate her feelings of abandonment.
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I don't think anyone was accusing you of anything and I wasn't trying to create a whole side discussion. I took offense somewhat on your behalf for being told you were "cheating" too. You may have been neglecting your wife's needs, but yours weren't being met either and that's an unfair transaction You began looking after your own needs as did I even if that meant neglecting your wife's needs.
And FYI I don't agree with cheating, so this isn't justification for it.
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I don't think anyone was accusing you of anything and I wasn't trying to create a whole side discussion. I took offense somewhat on your behalf for being told you were "cheating" too. You may have been neglecting your wife's needs, but yours weren't being met either and that's an unfair transaction You began looking after your own needs as did I even if that meant neglecting your wife's needs.
And FYI I don't agree with cheating, so this isn't justification for it.
Thanks Gman. I didn't feel attacked. I just wanted to clarify that I wasn't engaging in any inappropriate behavior with people online. The excessive gaming was just my poor coping skills to the lack of intimacy in the marriage.
Appreciate your white knight tendencies coming through for me, though! ;) ;D
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Ha! thank you!
Poor coping skills.. you hit the nail right on the head. I wished I had followed some kind of protocol, but I also knew in doing so, I would have ended up divorced anyway. So I didn't, I coped poorly and it happened regardless. Coulda woulda shoulda, but I made out better post BD and divorce than I would have if I had done it on my own, so the BD and MLC were a blessing in disguise.
Next time though, I'm an advocate for my own needs and I will have boundaries and protocols in place.
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LOL no back in my day (Atari) there was certainly no game-sharing. But I still don’t consider it cheating, even though interaction with others happens.
It is simply neglect. Because the sole focus is on the game, not the other person.
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Hello,
Of course, I can see everyone's point here - my IC, Gman, Terra, Mego and everyone else with a perspective on it. Ultimately, I am responsible for my actions and behavior, and the time I spent on the Playstation instead of with my wife was neglect.
Yes, you are always responsible for your actions. Good and bad. Now, my new w, who is amazing in so many ways, likes to go to bed and watch various shows on her phone. She watches every night for about an hour. Then she goes to sleep. I sometimes go to bed with her and fall asleep or I may stay and write on HS or watch sports. Our actions don't bother each other. After all, she needs some time to decompress from her day and just a little time for herself.
The question is, did actions in the marriage lead to MLC or was MLC going to happen regardless of the actions of the LBSer. From my perspective, the MLC was going to happen sooner or later. The issues or demons that arose from my MLCer were already in place long before I was in the picture. After my ex's mother died, those issues began to rise, she began to withdraw then and I was ignorant to her situation. Instead, I thought I was helping by supporting the girls and letting her do her thing. There was a lack of communication, but that did not create a situation where the solution was to find someone new. Then to blame me and tell me that our entire 18 years was a sham and that she never loved me.
In Disillusioned's case, I don't know how much time he spent on the game. Also, did his w approach him and communicate that he was spending too much time on the game and neglecting her? My ex brought up stuff that occurred throughout the years but never did she confront the issue when it happened. We can be many things, but mind readers we are not.
If the marriage caused the MLC, then why do single people also have MLC? I know of happy single people suddenly going off the crazy rails, getting married within weeks, and having a child. Then regretting everything they did down the road. Wishing they had kept their previous life.
So from my perspective, we may be part of the trigger that leads to the crisis, but the crisis will be triggered one way or the other with or without a spouse.
Just my opinion,
Ready
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I've seen two ads in the last couple days for video games that were clearly pornographic. One said "You can do anything you want in this game" with a very seductive looking female figure and the other says something like "If your wife is jealous, she won't want you playing this game" and there is a figure in a bikini. I had a platonic male friend that i hung out with for a while in the late 90s (we had a sport interest in common) who was rather immature (as well as an alcoholic) and I remember him telling me he had this hack for some Lara Croft video game that he liked to play that showed her in the nude. So video games aren't always that innocent.
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Video games aren’t always “innocent.” That would only be relevant if the person playing the video games were using them as porn rather than gaming - from what has been stated that isn’t the case.
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Hi I thought I would share my discussion with my ex from yesterday. He seems to be popping out of his tunnel and is having some awareness although he seems to have blocked/forgotten parts of his behaviour during monster.
He told me that his “illness” had nothing to do with our marriage. I don’t walk on eggshells anymore so I just proffered that he got bored of me, our sex life and wasn’t attracted to me anymore (I wasn’t going to be hurt as he’s already rejected me - I just wanted the truth). He said not at all. That there were some everyday issues but due to his conflict avoidant personality he was unable to express himself. He said he does it across business, friends, family and Ofcourse me. Everything just boiled over and he couldn’t cope.
He went into a mental health clinic for a number of weeks. He was expecting it to highlight all the problems in our marriage but it highlighted deeper issues within him. So ...... mlc is more than marriage issues in my case. Our relationship and family was the critically injured party in this.
So in my case...
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Limbo- So many MLCers seem to be conflict avoidant personalities. How can the spouse know anything is wrong if it isn’t communicated. What can you do if you don’t even know there is a problem. That is on the MLCer not the LBS.
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But there are hundred of things he can fix on his own, like putting his needs first, taking responsibility for himself, setting boundaries with me and everyone else, taking time for himself, and figuring out his likes and dislikes that he can do without poking traumas, I won’t baby him and it’s his job to learn them and do them.
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I totally agree that a very large percentage of MLC'ers are indeed on some level avoidant. My husband is "fearful-avoidant". As stated , they do not tell you or share with you any issues or unhappiness...suddenly they are just "done" and we are clueless. I have seen it happen over and over and over. And it is my story-line as well for the most part.
It is indeed "on them". We cannot possibly fix or address what we do not "know is broken" and they take that opportunity away with their silence. The added problem ( in my experience) is they believe the reason they do not talk, share, confide etc is actually YOUR fault . It is NOT they are avoidant and need to work on that , they believe YOU are to blame for their inability to talk. So, after BD ( wich is all about blame) , if you are also dealing with an avoidant ( more blame) then it is difficult not to take that personally and start to actually wonder if it is you (?). My husband could/can list 20 reasons that I make him avoidant. If you are susceptible to taking blame personally ( I was and still can react) then it is necessary to do some work refusing to accept blame and seeing the bigger picture .
Being avoidant is not about the marriage . The marriage did not make you avoidant...they came that way . Soo, I do not believe marriage...or being avoidant..has anything to do with the marriage . My husband has been avoidant since he was a child as a result of brutal abandonment and abuse. That is how he entered the marriage only neither of us knew anything about it.
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I think there is no dispute regarding the concept that MLCer has the sole ownership of MLC and that LBS and M had nothing to do with the content of it.
I guess this concept is MLC 101, Chapter 1, Paragraph 1, which every single newbie learns rickety-split when they land on HS or other similar websites.
In this thread, we are endeavouring to discuss the possibility of fractured marriage state being one of the triggers (not the cause!) for MLC, and definitely not about assigning any culpability to LBS, or MLCer, or both.
In other words, this discussion is meant to be about whether you deeply looked into the possibility of fractured marriage state (whatever the underlying reasons may be) as one of the triggers for MLC and share your thought process on the topic. Wouldn’t you do that as part of self reflection, sometimes known as ‘mirror work’?
Who knows, this thinky process may even lead a person to discover that perhaps she (general ‘she’) is using MLC as an excuse for the failure of their marriage, and that her errant spouse is not in crisis at all. That conclusion may affect her attitude about her future.
Or, one may see that if there was a serious fracture in their marriage, pre MLC, and the spouse is in MLC, their marriage is not going to be miraculously cured if/when MLCer is ’cured’ of MLC. (After all, we all know that MLC is not about M. That means healing from MLC is not about healing M, either.) That could also affect LBS’s attitude about her future.
I suggest that deep and honest reflection is absolutely necessary if one is to learn or grow at all as Songanddance has so aptly summarized:
Reflecting, considering, responding and self searching are all part of our growth.
......
That part of my life is no more; I have agonised over it long enough but it has taken time. That said - it is always a good thing to reflect, consider and evaluate especially as time progresses because we are always learning.
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I'm not sure I can explain why, but struggling through this question (and it was a struggle that set off all kinds of PTSD residue in my head) has brought me a sense of peace. As much as I have posted and read, my h vanished so much and so early that I have doubted my own judgment about whether it really was as abnormal and strange as it seemed.
But it was.
Our relationship was a good one. It wasn't fractured until my h fractured.
I may never know quite what caused him to fall apart as he did. But i am finally at peace with the reality that he did.
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I love this Treasur.
"Our relationship was a good one. It wasn't fractured until my h fractured.
I may never know quite what caused him to fall apart as he did. But i am finally at peace with the reality that he did."
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The next question I come up with is if pre BD caused the fractured marriage, then even if the mlcer comes back, is the marriage still fractured because of the damage done, even if it wasn't fractured before the mlcer started down the mlc path? (I can only speak for my own where I told him I felt like I was in the relationship alone, he insisted he was engaged, yet played video games instead of contributing to anything family wise, then admitted at BD that he had lied about being engaged, he had really checked out)
I remember during that pre BD time where he would say we shouldn't go here or there or do this or that because "We were having so many problems" and I'd say, "I don't understand. What problems do you mean?" And he either couldn't or wouldn't come up with anything. Then we would do x thing and he'd either cause a problem himself (the kids called him on it most of the time) or we would have a great time and he seemed surprised.
Again, to reiterate what others say, if an LBS had no idea there was an issue, it will be the same if the mlcer come back, unless the mlcer learns to communicate. And then I (personally) would still be stuck with "I've got nothing to work with or on until someone can say what the issue is".
Is the question really "Was your particular marriage fractured before MLC/BD? If so, do you think it will be different if your MLCER comes back?" After all of Acorn' s elaborations, I no longer know what the point of the question, as it is written, was all about. I originally thought it was to ask if anyone thought about it. Most of us did, picked our marriage apart, searched for our own part or blame, and many of us came up empty because we only know our side of it.
And again, fractured marriage, good marriage, ANY marriage could have been one of many triggers or the only trigger that kicked off mlc. If we are truly reflecting, it would make more sense to reflect on all possibilties, not just a single negative one. Color me confused now.
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I appreciate the suggestion that one trigger might have been that the MLC spouse could not cope with having a *good* marriage — this checks out for me. We had our share of problems but h, despite being loved and knowing it and clearly benefiting from it, was actually distinctly uncomfortable with being loved well. With so much of him being accepted, if that makes sense.
So there’s that? and I guess that means m was part of the reason for MLC.
It also maybe scared him to reach a certain timeline of us, as we both had been married before. I don’t actually know what corresponded to the first marriage, because he closed off.
His xw remarried, the guy she left and divorced him for. They moved into the neighborhood. That contributed for sure.
College friends died, too young. Our own age. So that contributed.
He lost jobs. Was laid off, not promoted, and/or (in at least one case) fired.
All those things contributed.
There were health issues and changes in his FOO, and those contributed too.
All of these things came to bear on us and particularly on him. I think despite his earlier ability to verbalize feelings and depth very well, it just got to be too much. That almost sounds like making excuses for him, but I kind of get it. And *almost* don’t begrudge him his choices to strike out, implode the family, and go off to get the life he thought and thinks is best.
I wish he hadn’t done it though. All these things were things I was prepared to go through with him. The EAs and PAs and moveaway, not so much.
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I no longer know what the point of the question, as it is written, was all about. I originally thought it was to ask if anyone thought about it. Most of us did, picked our marriage apart, searched for our own part or blame, and many of us came up empty because we only know our side of it.
And again, fractured marriage, good marriage, ANY marriage could have been one of many triggers or the only trigger that kicked off mlc. If we are truly reflecting, it would make more sense to reflect on all possibilties, not just a single negative one. Color me confused now.
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Me too. Lost and confused and have lost the plot. And it riles my ptsd . So, for me, I am just going to let it go.....float it away.
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I'm not sure I can explain why, but struggling through this question (and it was a struggle that set off all kinds of PTSD residue in my head) has brought me a sense of peace. As much as I have posted and read, my h vanished so much and so early that I have doubted my own judgment about whether it really was as abnormal and strange as it seemed.
But it was.
Our relationship was a good one. It wasn't fractured until my h fractured.
I may never know quite what caused him to fall apart as he did. But i am finally at peace with the reality that he did.
Treasur, (((((((HUGS)))))))) Peace is more acutely felt and appreciated after a storm, don’t you think?
I think I understand your struggle with the question as I have walked a similar path of contemplation. A long and steady one.... For me, it was an act of extracting my head out of sand. I just had to pull my head out and ask myself at some point if I was attributing our shattered marriage to MLC because some mantras about it suited me and fulfilled my need for recon fantasy. I believe it was a necessary step for me in healing and growing.
May peace always be in your heart, Treasur.
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For me, it was an act of extracting my head out of sand. I just had to pull my head out and ask myself at some point if I was attributing our shattered marriage to MLC because some mantras about it suited me and fulfilled my need for recon fantasy. I believe it was a necessary step for me in healing and growing.
Agree completely! I think it is important for us all to contemplate, b/c in truth NO ONE is perfect.
Initially, I blamed myself completely for our M shattering. I bought all of H's rewritten history b/c parts of it did have a small element of truth. For example, one of his complaints was that I did not respect him and was not attracted to him. These were somewhat true in that I did begin to resent him for me having to carry the load in our M and family, even though I had a 2 hour a day commute and H had none. I still did everything....apparently with a grudge. And I paid for everything, took care of our small child, etc. I own that part of it though. I definitely thought less of him for failing to help me out. I mean I would get home at 730 at night expected to come up with a dinner idea b/c H, who had been home for 2.5 hours already, never did. I was stressed out also b/c I wanted to be the perfect wife that he would always adore, in addition to partner in a law firm. And that did give rise to being disgusted with him at times. At times. This was not how I was all the time. We did have a pretty solid marriage except our communication was pretty bad. I never complained of the heavy burdens I carried. Just did it....and the resentment built. This is something good ole MC could have helped b/c deep down I did still love my H very much. And I know he loved me. I think he still does deep down.
Of course, when I was diagnosed with cancer, I softened quite a bit. And that is when he went ice cold. In our case, I think the cancer was the last of 3 triggers (Grandmother's death, appointment to the bench, then cancer) that sent H into MLC. That our communication was not good only created more problems after this bomb hit I believe.
No relationship is perfect. But some marriages are toxic I believe. In my case, I think our marriage was only so-so toward the end. But definitely nowhere near toxic. And it was fixable. Too bad H didn't agree and was already head-over-heals in lurve with the bailiff. I've learned a lot about relationships though, so MLC does have a silver lining. I'll be great in my next one, whomever that is with. ;)
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Do you know belatedly I wonder if one of the easiest ways to answer this question is to consider if I would be happy now to be in a marriage like the one I experienced. And the simple answer is I would. The only thing i would change, bc i understand the risk of it more now, is to be more direct with my h about times when I saw his FOO stuff pop up in his behaviour, to challenge it more explicitly and to encourage him more directly to address it and to mind read a bit less bc I know the limits of my understanding now. That's it.
And I am even now a pretty healthy person so if I feel like that, then I think my m was a pretty good one. One worth having and appreciating. One where I genuinely felt loved, safe and respected in the way that I should feel.
Now I am open-minded enough that I also accept that if new information presented itself - let's say I found out that my then h unbeknownst to me had other affairs or a secret drug addiction - I would probably see it differently. But based on what I know and what I saw and what I felt, my m was a pretty good one. A place that felt good enough for me anyway.
The tricky bit I think is that once your spouse fractures, the m fractures, so it becomes difficult to see one through the other. Or to judge your own reality without someone else's gaslighting or changed perspective. We look though our own wound and through their rewritten story I think. It was a vital part of my healing to be able to sort my own wheat from the rubble. And to trust my own judgement.
I also think answering the question may be influenced by what you want to do with the answer.
In my case, I just wanted to know what I could trust about what was real for me as part of being able to let go and lay things down. To silence some of those monkeys.
I think if you are trying to decide if there is something worth standing for or what might be rebuilt, then part of that is working out the substance of the m you had, the reality of what the fractured spouse has to offer right now and the ways in which your needs have changed. In my case, rightly or wrongly (and i speak only for me), my reality was that by maybe mid 2017 I did not believe that the fractured h I had could ever again be capable of being the kind of partner I needed. The damage to the essence of who we were together was too big imho to be a foundation to anything more than a kind farewell. And I couldn't even create that with the broken child that my h had become. So I had to let go of that desire too lol.
It is understandable that the question is a difficult one bc it is underpinned by a need to be quite honest with ourselves about what we believe about the past, present and what we honestly feel is do-able in our future. And we reach different conclusions. Which is understandable too isn't it?
My peace is that - based on what I know today - I believe that the m I had was good enough that I would be happy to be in that kind of m again. It isn't possible. And the fractured m with a fractured h? No, that is not workable with. But I like that I like the m I had and the h I knew even though i accept that both no longer exist as they did. It is more peaceful to live without the monkeys lol.
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Good post, Treasur!
It is understandable that the question is a difficult one bc it is underpinned by a need to be quite honest with ourselves about what we believe about the past, present and what we honestly feel is do-able in our future. And we reach different conclusions. Which is understandable too isn't it?
Yes, I couldn’t agree more with having to be honest.
There is another tricky step, in my humble opinion. It is humility.
When puffed up with pride, truth sometimes lies hidden under it. Remove pride, truth might be revealed. Pride oftentimes is the proverbial wool over the eyes.
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Oh boy, Acorn, did you ever hit on an important step. A step I found terribly painful. The progression of MLC/LBS beats the crap out of one's ego until they understand the true meaning of pride and humility. It tends to strip one bear of those things to allow them to be rebuilt on a firmer basis, and lacking the arrogance of youth.
There I was so proud of my marriage to such a handsome, brave, accomplished, strong, military man, doctor, genius. With tons of money that I could spend at will. We owned 3 homes. Traveled the world. We talked of how great a love was ours. We felt sorry for other couples we socialized with when they divorced and distanced ourselves from them when it happened. We judged others as less. Never seeing what could and would come.
I sat cloaked in my pride, fixing this and that, thinking I had the answers. After all, I am intelligent, well educated, emotionally strong, good job, money, assets, and more. I MUST be doing it all right, making the right decisions.
Until one day I found myself standing in the rubble of my life.
I kept going back in my mind to how could this happen to me? To us? I'm smart. I'll think my way out of this. Surely this is a temporary blip! Research! Google! Forums! Follow instructions. Wah lah. Nope. Each of my strengths, knocked down. One by one. Until I had nothing to hide behind.
Schoooooooppppppffffff. The sound of my ego and arrogance deflating. None of the tools in my box were working. It can't be! It just can't. I kicked and screamed metaphorically. I fought it each step. To no avail.
I had to let go of my illusions. People weren't not helping me because they were mean. They were helping me. I just wasn't hearing them because my eyes and ears were clogged with pride and arrogance. I stopped thinking of BUTS and excuses or problems or differences in their advice, their lives, and mine. I stopped considering my situation as my being special or different.
I hit bottom and the reality was none of the whys mattered. That was all just mental games I was playing to avoid the hard work of rebuilding and healing myself so I didn't have to deflate my ego and embrace humility. Excuses. Explanations. Justifications. Depression. PTSD. None of that mattered in the long term.
Hearing what others said. Finding the exit door out of hell. Being willing to let go and accept you can't think your way out of this. All the tools you proudly relied on are not going to give you the answers or solve this. Those tools were overgrown, over inflated. While other tools were absent or under inflated. I had to start from bottom in order to reach a healthy balance of tools. It's not my right or necessity or even my business to understand another's why's. Make an informed guess and move forward. I have enough to understand my why's to the best if my ability at the time. Things may become clearer in the future or not.
And I had to accept that and let go. There's a time when that's all one can do, choose to accept and move forward or continue to navel gaze waiting for an incomplete set of over inflated tools to give impossible answers. It's your choice.
My opinion,
Lp
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Acorn and LP,
Oh gosh you guys nailed this one !
I had everything and more, felt I could fix everything and anything. Judgement, pride, blinders you name it I had pieces of all that too.
When I finally crashed because I couldn't fix what was once the envy of many. I laid in that rubble suffering the aftershocks for far too long. Thankfully, I'm a much more humble and realistic person than who I was before. I've gone back and apologized to a couple of close friends who were there for me even when I refused to listen.
Hugs, Believer
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PRIDE--of course! Seems so simple but I could never put my finger on it. Yes. Thank you for pointing it out. For a long time I was "humiliated" by my H's actions. That was almost as painful as the fear of being alone and missing my H. But not humiliated in a humble way. More like, "What will people think of me now that I have a failed marriage?" or "I'm no longer the judge's wife." So superficial. Well, one more to add to my list of things to work on.....
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Omg....yup.
Humility.
Until I hit my own flat face in the rubble moment....well, actually did it over and over tbh. Until I just had no more in me. ::)
I didn't start to heal until I let go of my arrogance and my pride.
No matter what I thought, I had ended up inadvertently married to a man who lost his marbles and at least partly wanted me dead. Or a middle aged cliche of an abandoned wife traded in for a younger blonde. That was reality. And I got played by a man in psychiatric care and a poorly educated bank clerk who believes in unicorns who 'won' when I 'lost' a lot. I struggled along sobbing and ill while they planned their wedding ffs. My good heart, logical brain and Oxford degree made no difference at all lol. How the f**k did that happen to ME? And surely MY h/situation was diffferent right? Errrr. Nope.
The list of things I don't know? Huge. The mess of my life? Huge. My mistakes in dealing with this experience? Huge.
Perhaps the hardest thing of all to let go was the self-evident truth that what I had done before was not working and I had run out of ideas and steam.
But it made life simpler and I got my self-respect back when I did. And then new hopes slowly came.
But I fought it every step of the way ha ha.
Now, to be fair, I don't feel like I 'lost' even though I had losses. And my h became someone who was no loss at all in that sense. I wouldn't have married what he became as ow did, that's for sure. Which is why standing for him made no sense to me. If I thought ow must be an idiot or delusional to marry the f'ed up mess he became, it made no sense to me that I should want him back.
But it is a very humbling thing to see your life blown up in front of your face and to feel quite helpless to do much about it :)
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I can relate so much to this,
My wife had money that she didn't have to twork for. I thought I was on easy street. I had a beautiful woman, great kids and a home on the beach. All of that has been stripped away. I am maybe for the first time in my life seeing what or who I really am. A lot of it I don't like but there is also tons that I do.
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Such thoughtful posts... I continue to learn from posts that scratch well below the surface.
Honesty and humility make us vulnerable, as if one is standing before reality without any skin. I believe they are necessary if one is to truly heal and grow. I think latest posts demonstrate the point.
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Hello,
I sat cloaked in my pride, fixing this and that, thinking I had the answers. After all, I am intelligent, well educated, emotionally strong, good job, money, assets, and more. I MUST be doing it all right, making the right decisions.
Until one day I found myself standing in the rubble of my life.
This so resonated with me at bomb drop. Different career, but same feelings, and my life was on autopilot and I wasn't watching the fine details. After, everything seemed fine.
Bomb drop was a large piece of humble pie. Afterwards, I became so much more empathetic to those around me. Realized that life can turn on a dime, yours, mine, someone else, or no one's fault. The rug can be pulled out from under your feet. I went from figuring out to blame to someone who just understood and felt the pain. To see different perspectives. To be humble and realize that I don't know everything and more often than not, I am wrong and I am not right. However, it is okay if I can accept responsibility for my actions and try my very best to right my wrongs.
I have read and really touched by the posts regarding this.
((((Hugs))) and more ((((Hugs))))
Ready