[barbiedoll]

But there are hundred of things he can fix on his own, like putting his needs first, taking responsibility for himself, setting boundaries with me and everyone else, taking time for himself, and figuring out his likes and dislikes that he can do without poking traumas, I won’t baby him and it’s his job to learn them and do them.

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I totally agree that a very large percentage of MLC'ers are indeed on some level avoidant. My husband is "fearful-avoidant". As stated , they do not tell you or share with you any issues or unhappiness...suddenly they are just "done" and we are clueless. I have seen it happen over and over and over. And it is my story-line as well for the most part.

It is indeed "on them". We cannot possibly fix or address what we do not "know is broken" and they take that opportunity away with their silence. The added problem ( in my experience) is they believe the reason they do not talk, share, confide etc is actually YOUR fault . It is NOT they are avoidant and need to work on that , they believe YOU are to blame for their inability to talk. So, after BD ( wich is all about blame) , if you are also dealing with an avoidant ( more blame) then it is difficult not to take that personally and start to actually wonder if it is you (?). My husband could/can list 20 reasons that I make him avoidant. If you are susceptible to taking blame personally ( I was and still can react) then it is necessary to do some work refusing to accept blame and seeing the bigger picture .

Being avoidant is not about the marriage . The marriage did not make you avoidant...they came that way . Soo, I do not believe marriage...or being avoidant..has anything to do with the marriage . My husband has been avoidant since he was a child as a result of brutal abandonment and abuse. That is how he entered the marriage only neither of us knew anything about it.

[Acorn]

I think there is no dispute regarding the concept that MLCer has the sole ownership of MLC and that LBS and M had nothing to do with the content of it.

I guess this concept is MLC 101, Chapter 1, Paragraph 1, which every single newbie learns rickety-split when they land on HS or other similar websites. 

In this thread, we are endeavouring to discuss the possibility of fractured  marriage state being one of the triggers (not the cause!) for MLC, and definitely not about assigning any culpability to LBS, or MLCer, or both. 

In other words, this discussion is meant to be about whether you deeply looked into the possibility of fractured marriage state (whatever the underlying reasons may be) as one of the triggers for MLC and share your thought process on the topic.  Wouldn’t you do that as part of self reflection, sometimes known as ‘mirror work’? 

Who knows, this thinky process may even lead a person to discover that perhaps she (general ‘she’) is using MLC as an excuse for the failure of their marriage, and that her errant spouse is not in crisis at all.  That conclusion may affect her attitude about her future.

Or, one may see that if there was a serious fracture in their marriage, pre MLC, and the spouse is in MLC, their marriage is not going to be miraculously cured if/when MLCer is ’cured’ of MLC.  (After all, we all know that MLC is not about M.  That means healing from MLC is not about healing M, either.) That could also affect LBS’s attitude about her future. 

I suggest that deep and honest reflection is absolutely necessary if one is to learn or grow at all as Songanddance has so aptly summarized:

Reflecting, considering, responding and self searching are all part of our growth.
......
That part of my life is no more; I have agonised over it long enough but it has taken time. That said - it is always a good thing to reflect, consider and evaluate especially as time progresses because we are always learning.

[Treasur]

I'm not sure I can explain why, but struggling through this question (and it was a struggle that set off all kinds of PTSD residue in my head) has brought me a sense of peace. As much as I have posted and read, my h vanished so much and so early that I have doubted my own judgment about whether it really was as abnormal and strange as it seemed.

But it was.

Our relationship was a good one. It wasn't fractured until my h fractured.
I may never know quite what caused him to fall apart as he did. But i am finally at peace with the reality that he did.

[Thunder]

I love this Treasur.

"Our relationship was a good one. It wasn't fractured until my h fractured.
I may never know quite what caused him to fall apart as he did. But i am finally at peace with the reality that he did."

[OffRoad]

The next question I come up with is if pre  BD caused the fractured marriage, then even if the mlcer comes back, is the marriage still fractured because of the damage done, even if it wasn't fractured before the mlcer started down the mlc path?  (I can only speak for my own where I told him I felt like I was in the relationship alone, he insisted he was engaged, yet played video games instead of contributing to anything family wise, then admitted at BD that he had lied about being engaged, he had really checked out)

I remember during that pre BD time where he would say we shouldn't go here or there or do this or that because "We were having so many problems" and I'd say,  "I don't understand. What problems do you mean?" And he either couldn't or wouldn't come up with anything. Then we would do x thing and he'd either cause a problem himself  (the kids called him on it most of the time) or we would have a great time and he seemed surprised.

Again, to reiterate what others say, if an LBS had no idea there was an issue, it will be the same if the mlcer come back, unless the mlcer learns to communicate. And then I (personally) would  still be stuck with "I've got nothing to work with or on until someone can say what the issue is".

Is the question really "Was your particular marriage fractured before MLC/BD? If so, do you think it will be different if your MLCER comes back?" After all of Acorn' s elaborations, I no longer know what the point of the question, as it is written, was all about. I originally thought it was to ask if anyone thought about it. Most of us did, picked our marriage apart, searched for our own part or blame, and many of us came up empty because we only know our side of it.

And again, fractured marriage, good marriage, ANY marriage could have been one of many triggers or the only trigger that kicked off mlc. If we are truly reflecting, it would make more sense to reflect on all possibilties, not just a single negative one. Color me confused now.

[terra]

I appreciate the suggestion that one trigger might have been that the MLC spouse could not cope with having a *good* marriage — this checks out for me. We had our share of problems but h, despite being loved and knowing it and clearly benefiting from it, was actually distinctly uncomfortable with being loved well. With so much of him being accepted, if that makes sense.

So there’s that? and I guess that means m was part of the reason for MLC.

It also maybe scared him to reach a certain timeline of us, as we both had been married before. I don’t actually know what corresponded to the first marriage, because he closed off.

His xw remarried, the guy she left and divorced him for. They moved into the neighborhood. That contributed for sure.

College friends died, too young. Our own age. So that contributed.

He lost jobs. Was laid off, not promoted, and/or (in at least one case) fired.

All those things contributed.

There were health issues and changes in his FOO, and those contributed too.

All of these things came to bear on us and particularly on him. I think despite his earlier ability to verbalize feelings and depth very well, it just got to be too much. That almost sounds like making excuses for him, but I kind of get it. And *almost* don’t begrudge him his choices to strike out, implode the family, and go off to get the life he thought and thinks is best.

I wish he hadn’t done it though. All these things were things I was prepared to go through with him. The EAs and PAs and moveaway, not so much.

[barbiedoll]

I no longer know what the point of the question, as it is written, was all about. I originally thought it was to ask if anyone thought about it. Most of us did, picked our marriage apart, searched for our own part or blame, and many of us came up empty because we only know our side of it.

And again, fractured marriage, good marriage, ANY marriage could have been one of many triggers or the only trigger that kicked off mlc. If we are truly reflecting, it would make more sense to reflect on all possibilties, not just a single negative one. Color me confused now.

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Me too. Lost and confused and have lost the plot. And it riles my ptsd . So, for me, I am just going to let it go.....float it away.

[Acorn]

I'm not sure I can explain why, but struggling through this question (and it was a struggle that set off all kinds of PTSD residue in my head) has brought me a sense of peace. As much as I have posted and read, my h vanished so much and so early that I have doubted my own judgment about whether it really was as abnormal and strange as it seemed.

But it was.

Our relationship was a good one. It wasn't fractured until my h fractured.
I may never know quite what caused him to fall apart as he did. But i am finally at peace with the reality that he did.

Treasur, (((((((HUGS))))))))  Peace is more acutely felt and appreciated after a storm, don’t you think?

I think I understand your struggle with the question as I have walked a similar path of contemplation.  A long and steady one....  For me, it was an act of extracting my head out of sand.  I just had to pull my head out and ask myself at some point if I was attributing our shattered marriage to MLC because some mantras about it suited me and fulfilled my need for recon fantasy.  I believe it was a necessary step for me in healing and growing.

May peace always be in your heart, Treasur. 

[KeepItTogether]

For me, it was an act of extracting my head out of sand.  I just had to pull my head out and ask myself at some point if I was attributing our shattered marriage to MLC because some mantras about it suited me and fulfilled my need for recon fantasy.  I believe it was a necessary step for me in healing and growing.
 

Agree completely! I think it is important for us all to contemplate, b/c in truth NO ONE is perfect.

Initially, I blamed myself completely for our M shattering. I bought all of H's rewritten history b/c parts of it did have a small element of truth.  For example, one of his complaints was that I did not respect him and was not attracted to him. These were somewhat true in that I did begin to resent him for me having to carry the load in our M and family, even though I had a 2 hour a day commute and H had none. I still did everything....apparently with a grudge. And I paid for everything, took care of our small child, etc. I own that part of it though. I definitely thought less of him for failing to help me out.  I mean I would get home at 730 at night expected to come up with a dinner idea b/c H, who had been home for 2.5 hours already, never did. I was stressed out also b/c I wanted to be the perfect wife that he would always adore, in addition to partner in a law firm.  And that did give rise to being disgusted with him at times. At times.  This was not how I was all the time. We did have a pretty solid marriage except our communication was pretty bad. I never complained of the heavy burdens I carried. Just did it....and the resentment built. This is something good ole MC could have helped b/c deep down I did still love my H very much. And I know he loved me. I think he still does deep down.

Of course, when I was diagnosed with cancer, I softened quite a bit. And that is when he went ice cold. In our case, I think the cancer was the last of 3 triggers (Grandmother's death, appointment to the bench, then cancer) that sent H into MLC. That our communication was not good only created more problems after this bomb hit I believe.

No relationship is perfect. But some marriages are toxic I believe. In my case, I think our marriage was only so-so toward the end. But definitely nowhere near toxic.  And it was fixable. Too bad H didn't agree and was already head-over-heals in lurve with the bailiff. I've learned a lot about relationships though, so MLC does have a silver lining. I'll be great in my next one, whomever that is with.

[Treasur]

Do you know belatedly I wonder if one of the easiest ways to answer this question is to consider if I would be happy now to be in a marriage like the one I experienced. And the simple answer is I would. The only thing i would change, bc i understand the risk of it more now, is to be more direct with my h about times when I saw his FOO stuff pop up in his behaviour, to challenge it more explicitly and to encourage him more directly to address it and to mind read a bit less bc I know the limits of my understanding now. That's it.

And I am even now a pretty healthy person so if I feel like that, then I think my m was a pretty good one. One worth having and appreciating. One where I genuinely felt loved, safe and respected in the way that I should feel.

Now I am open-minded enough that I also accept that if new information presented itself - let's say I found out that my then h unbeknownst to me had other affairs or a secret drug addiction - I would probably see it differently. But based on what I know and what I saw and what I felt, my m was a pretty good one. A place that felt good enough for me anyway.

The tricky bit I think is that once your spouse fractures, the m fractures, so it becomes difficult to see one through the other. Or to judge your own reality without someone else's gaslighting or changed perspective. We look though our own wound and through their rewritten story I think. It was a vital part of my healing to be able to sort my own wheat from the rubble. And to trust my own judgement.

I also think answering the question may be influenced by what you want to do with the answer.
In my case, I just wanted to know what I could trust about what was real for me as part of being able to let go and lay things down. To silence some of those monkeys.

I think if you are trying to decide if there is something worth standing for or what might be rebuilt, then part of that is working out the substance of the m you had, the reality of what the fractured spouse has to offer right now and the ways in which your needs have changed. In my case, rightly or wrongly (and i speak only for me), my reality was that by maybe mid 2017 I did not believe that the fractured h I had could ever again be capable of being the kind of partner I needed. The damage to the essence of who we were together was too big imho to be a foundation to anything more than a kind farewell. And I couldn't even create that with the broken child that my h had become. So I had to let go of that desire too lol.

It is understandable that the question is a difficult one bc it is underpinned by a need to be quite honest with ourselves about what we believe about the past, present and what we honestly feel is do-able in our future. And we reach different conclusions. Which is understandable too isn't it?

My peace is that - based on what I know today - I believe that the m I had was good enough that I would be happy to be in that kind of m again. It isn't possible. And the fractured m with a fractured h? No, that is not workable with. But I like that I like the m I had and the h I knew even though i accept that both no longer exist as they did. It is more peaceful to live without the monkeys lol.