[Songanddance]

I don't need to be right.
I just need to be right enough for me.

I'm just going to take liberties with this T and amend the words to the following:

Whatever happened and happens I don't need to be completely whole. I just need to be whole enough for me at any given time.

Reflecting, considering, responding and self searching are all part of our growth.

I know that my marriage was fractured before BD but we were both responsible for that fracturing.  H's initial replay activities started well before BD (about 7 yrs before) and then OW exacerbated BD.   At BD I remember saying to H that it didn't matter what the state of our marriage was - he had never expressed how he felt and so I didn't know he was struggling but nothing gave him the right to destroy our marriage in such a way. 
Sadly I never sustained that anger and level of response - and did all the wrong things.

Now I don't care to look back, I have done and continue to work on me and all that matters is that I am whole and free to choose what path I take. 

That part of my life is no more; I have agonised over it long enough but it has taken time. That said - it is always a good thing to reflect, consider and evaluate especially as time progresses because we are always learning.

[Treasur]

Ah, song, i prefer your version 
Whole is more accurate than right  ......good enough is good enough isn't it?

I do accept that my xh, based on his behaviour, believed that our m was not only fractured but worthless, that I was worthless at best to him and at worst was the problem causing his unhappiness an an impediment to his future happiness. And believed some strange circular logic (that I have seen other post about) that was something like well, if I could break our m it proves that it was already broken.....

I also know that this was not true even if it became true in his head. It just wasn't....not to anyone else including the previous version of himself who frankly would have said the exact opposite for 18 years.
It wasn't true.

Thank you, those few words have just helped me with something I am working on here this week, hopefully a last bit of looking back to look forwards xxx

[MairJ23]

Hi Songanddance and Treasur, great posts, I feel the same in that my W never expressed how she was feeling in the marriage, so that’s totally on her.
Also to just walk away saying she feels nothing and to never try to repair the marriage or make any effort whatsoever, that’s also on her and  something she will have to live with.

You are an inspiration to me, thank you 😊

[gman242]

My IC once said, as we were exploring my W's infidelity, "You cheated too.  You used the Playstation as a mistress." 

I disagree with your therapist. You no doubt tried to fix the issue, but after years of neglect you simply found a way to bring yourself comfort and distraction. That may sound like the definition of cheating, but I still disagree. You were with who you wanted to be with. She didn't want to be with you so you found something else to do that didn't involve replacing her.

I went through the same thing. I had my own issues but they were oppressed and dominated by xw's issues. Because of it, I had an MLT. I had a life that didn't include her to distract me from the pain of abandonment.

I tried, you tried. We didn't cheat or abandon them when so many have and it would have been so easy to justify. How are you supposed to "work with" someone who doesn't want to be worked with? So you got a hobby you over indulged in.

All my actions were in reaction to xws abandonment. I played video games too and I refuse to bear any blame for it. She sat in bed cheating on me in her ipad and phone. I was shooting a 10 year old kid in Russia or something in call of duty.

Tell your therapist to call me, I'll set him straight.

Gman, I certainly appreciate that perspective. I've definitely vacillated back and forth about that statement, and I've had numerous conversations with friends about it. You're right. I tried. I made my needs extremely clear when it came to intimacy. After years of being shot down, gas lighted, and watching this beautiful creature that I loved above all else  walk around nude in front of me and lay in bed nude but not let me touch her, I eventually retreated into a world online. And the funny thing is, I only did it at night after she went to bed. I never did it while she was awake.

I also think I had an MLT, or at least some type of depression. My mlcw constantly says I came home one day a completely different person. And I don't disagree with her. But something brought about that change, which is why I have a difficult time not thinking that sometimes certain circumstances in the marriage might lead to mlc. I think that her withholding caused me a great deal of pain and I withdrew and became depressed, angry, and different. I didn't cheat, I didn't spend money, I didn't get a sport car, I didn't go out drinking.  I stayed home and continued to try and be the best husband I could be given the circumstances. But I definitely withdrew emotionally, and left her feeling abandoned and betrayed. I can certainly validate her feelings on that subject, because I felt the same way.

I appreciate your offer to call my therapist. She's a woman, not a man, so I always try to give her perspective special consideration. However, we've had several knock-down, drag-out fights about men and women. I feel like she's learned some things from me that she didn't understand about men.

After I typed that I thought that your therapist could have been a woman! lol. When you state your needs and someone else won't respond to them, you're only left with a few choices. We obviously choose to stand with our spouses rather than divorce or cheat on them. While I don't agree with it, after you've tried to "do the work" so to speak, I could see cheating in this case being less of a crime than to do it when never having reached out to the other spouse at all.

A reaction behavior, like we engaged in, is something I've always called a symptomatic behavior. It's symptomatic of you not getting your needs met by your partner. The delicate thing I don't like about symptomatic behaviors is that they can be thrown back onto the victim and they can even be retroconned into being the perpetrator. That's what happened a lot with me.

There was a famous argument between me and my xw, because she showed up three hours early to my apartment when we were dating. I answered the door in my boxer shorts and a tshirt, with a rag in my hand. I was clearly cleaning in anticipation of her arrival. In her journal though, she tore me to shreds about how gross I was and so on. I'd maintain that she showed up three hours early, unannounced and I should be cut some slack and she'd respond with "but you knew I was coming". Every time I'd defend myself, she'd move the goal post further away from me to the point where I should have cleaned a week ago and sat dressed on my couch from 6am that morning waiting on her.

Sadly, that's how I knew her love for me was genuine. She couldn't deal with the emotions and the vulnerability, so she kept trying to turn me into someone deplorable and unlovable, in her head.  I think that's what drives a lot of the monster we read about here on the forum.

But anyway, that stings and I can understand how you probably over analyzed the comment from your therapist. That's a bit of victim blaming and shaming. You did the right thing and were left with unmet needs and you found a way to fill them, within your own set of values and boundaries.

Anyway, I'm sorry you went through that. It's something I know all too well.

[terra]

You did the right thing and were left with unmet needs and you found a way to fill them, within your own set of values and boundaries.

AND!

Now you know that some people, and maybe particularly women, see Playstation and video gaming as a type of betrayal of marriage, or at the very least, intrusive on relationship or intimacy, and equivalent to stepping out with an actual other person.

It doesn’t mean you were or are a bad person or a bad spouse. It does mean that there are many alternate views on what is innocuous and what isn’t, in the ways we cope with our marital or relational fragility.

I’ve never known anyone to be happy that their person opted for screen time instead of time spent together doing anything else. Just saying.

[gman242]

Terra, I don't disagree with you at all.

In our cases (disillusioned and i) it wasn't our first choice. We much rather would have been doing something with our wives. That's why I was saying it was symptomatic behavior of being rejected or abandoned first.

It's everything in moderation. Your interests should never get to the point they exclude your partner.

I was just thinking that if disillusioned's therapist had heard his side of the story, she wouldn't have equated it with cheating.

[megogirl]

It’s absolutely not cheating.  Because a PlayStation is not capable of responding.

It is, however, neglect.

[OffRoad]

Mego, did your Playstation not have Internet and group games? Something on that Playstation certainly can respond. Just saying..... ( video games are a whole other discussion)

Back to the question. It implies that the marriage was possibly fractured before MLC  and thus a catalyst, or even trigger for MLC. If the marriage wasn't fractured, could it still be a catalyst or trigger for MLC? IT seems to me it could be. What if the LBS was just so great, the MLCER couldn't stand it and went over the edge to a crappy person that made them feel better about themself?  That could make a good marriage a trigger. What if the marriage was great, but the MLCER didn't know how to deal with calm and wonderful because it isn't how they grew up so they had to shake up their life. Still a trigger. What if a perfect marriage is what caused the mlcer to do a slow boil because they didn't think they could maintain it for however many more years?Still a trigger and still not a fractured marriage, but a fractured person in a marriage and the marriage triggered mlc. In fact, being married to ANYONE might have been the trigger to MLC. Who is to say having a perfect, non fractured marriage didn't CAUSE the mlc?

Well, we can't say so. The only person who could answer that is our own personal mlcer/non mlcer/WAS, whatever you want to call that person who decided they didn't want to be married to us or maybe anyone, or wanted to have their married cake and single cake, too or just had no idea what they wanted just didn't want what they had. A lot of them dont seem to really know why, just that they "had" to. And if they lied to us in the beginning, how can you be sure they aren't lying any other time? (Rhetorical question, requires no answer)

The answer to the original question can be a simple "Yep, I thought about that" or "Nope, never crossed my mind". And yet NO ONE  answered that way. Interesting, isn't it?

[gman242]

Mego, did your Playstation not have Internet and group games? Something on that Playstation certainly can respond. Just saying..... ( video games are a whole other discussion)

It's the frame of mind though.. I just wanted something to do that blocked out feeling abandoned in my own marriage. I never would have thought to try and meet someone for illicit purposes anywhere, online or real life. In fact, one of the reasons I'm in the job I am now is because I wanted to get off a campus where I was being um, tempted by students and faculty. Cheating never entered my mind. However, if you're going to cheat, I'm sure anyone can find any way to exploit something to do it.

Back to the question. It implies that the marriage was possibly fractured before MLC  and thus a catalyst, or even trigger for MLC. If the marriage wasn't fractured, could it still be a catalyst or trigger for MLC? IT seems to me it could be. What if the LBS was just so great, the MLCER couldn't stand it and went over the edge to a crappy person that made them feel better about themself?  That could make a good marriage a trigger. What if the marriage was great, but the MLCER didn't know how to deal with calm and wonderful because it isn't how they grew up so they had to shake up their life. Still a trigger. What if a perfect marriage is what caused the mlcer to do a slow boil because they didn't think they could maintain it for however many more years?Still a trigger and still not a fractured marriage, but a fractured person in a marriage and the marriage triggered mlc. In fact, being married to ANYONE might have been the trigger to MLC. Who is to say having a perfect, non fractured marriage didn't CAUSE the mlc?

You're mostly describing my marriage here and what's happened to me when I've tried dating afterwards. I don't think it was what caused the MLC. I know my xw loved me and we found a way to make it work despite her issues, we wouldn't have made it as long as we did. Although I think it made the MLC and the running worse.

People who have had a crappy life have trouble being vulnerable and emotionally available.  Many of them have repressed their feelings so far, they rely on sex, alcohol, horror movies, obsessions with serial killers, high risk sports activities, self harm ect to regulate their own moods and emotions.

That's what drove the resentment in most of my marriage. My ex loved me and that made her feel vulnerable and she resented me for it. When her mom died, she couldn't deal with it and she threw the baby out with the bathwater. So she ran out and found a guy she's not in love with, who even hits her, because it's less risky, emotionally for her. I've kinda been hung up on that one for a while.

The answer for everyone is different though. I can't imagine that any two stories look a like. They may be similar on the surface, but the causes are all their own. We always go full circle with these discussions though. Were they unhappy anyway and just walked out? Was it us? It's hard to say and I can only say I know what I know about my own marriage. 

[Nerissa]

Back to the question. It implies that the marriage was possibly fractured before MLC  and thus a catalyst, or even trigger for MLC. If the marriage wasn't fractured, could it still be a catalyst or trigger for MLC? IT seems to me it could be. What if the LBS was just so great, the MLCER couldn't stand it and went over the edge to a crappy person that made them feel better about themself?  That could make a good marriage a trigger. What if the marriage was great, but the MLCER didn't know how to deal with calm and wonderful because it isn't how they grew up so they had to shake up their life. Still a trigger. What if a perfect marriage is what caused the mlcer to do a slow boil because they didn't think they could maintain it for however many more years?Still a trigger and still not a fractured marriage, but a fractured person in a marriage and the marriage triggered mlc. In fact, being married to ANYONE might have been the trigger to MLC. Who is to say having a perfect, non fractured marriage didn't CAUSE the

Actually that’s a good point. Self sabotage is a component of a number of psychological conditions and envy and competition with a spouse can be a component of Narcissism.