[3Boys4Me]

So true Velika - many monsters MLCers become unhinged and desperate to cruelly shred their LBS of their self-esteem and positive memories and then later act/believe that they never did the things they did. Examining our own behavior to heal, yes those efforts are worthwhile, mirror work, also smart if approached with self love and understanding - that said, i think we have to be very careful to be retraumatized by over-analyzing - I know I didn’t cause my spouses mania or create the conditions for his crisis - and while my responsibility is to myself and to be my best version of me, I don’t own his choices, his betrayal, abuse, neglect, financial irresponsibility and more. I honestly believe that our marriage and family likely delayed his crisis as I was definitely a “fixer” and I now understand I had many codependent traits - but his breakdown was going to happen regardless of who his spouse was -

[Little Wing]

I'm concerned that this thread is reinforcing MLCers blame game in the potentially damaged psyche of the early stage LBS.

I like many other LBSs suffered more than one BD and after BD1 I accepted a lot of responsibility for my W's MLC and her first PA.  I tried to accept the blame on the logic that if my formerly loving wife had acted so against her previous nature and beliefs that I must have somehow broken her and I had done this unknowingly and without my W telling me.

 I worked to be a better husband and father, using CBT to address my own issues.

My W like many other MLCers had a 'return' only to have a second PA and BD again, with me again being blamed as the cause, with our M being the trigger for her behaviours.  My work on myself and changes I made were seen as too little too late, 'You had already messed me up'. 

Nothing I could do would fix in her what I had not broken.

My MLC W felt like she was broken by our M...  That her MLC was not to do with her life choices, lack of personal confidence, FOO issues, unresolved grief over bereavements we had suffered, etc.

I believe childhood echoes forever and the seeds of MLC are sown in childhood.  My W was not the one person on planet earth who was without emotional issues from FOO, etc when we met and feel in love.  To me MLC seems far too big to have been formed in secret in a M that was not abusive or cold and indeed had many beautiful times, not least being blessed with four amazing children. 

The potential for an MLC is in us all and doesnt belong to others... MLC is an internal battle and I believe almost nothing to do with the partner who is blamed...  this blame game is selfish, lazy and too simple an explanation, but it is so much easier for the MLCer than facing the pain.

How many of our LBS brothers and sisters have sat, stunned like me thinking 'Was I really that bad to live with?', 'Am I now reaping what I unknowingly sowed'? 'Do I deserve this?'

This I know is a very dark place to inhabit.  And with time and sincerity and a lot of work I have separated out our M issues from her MLC and now feel confident that the issues within our M are tiny compared to the hugeness of an MLC.  This took much hard work to accomplish and I too am concerned that those who are closer to BD than me will read some of this thread as a validation of MLC blaming. 

MLC is amongst the most major of depressive episodes, with the extreme behaviours exhibited by the MLCer more akin to a serious psychological breakdown than to the degradation of a stagnant marriage.  The difference between a relationship breakdown and the extremes of MLC are huge and the two situations incomparable IMHO.

I did not break her and nor did our M, indeed I believe that the M prevented her from an earlier MLC as I tried to hold us together, tried to help her to fix herself by being strong for two. 

This cannot work as the MLC battle is within my W and within each MLCer.  LBS are not to blame, M is not the trigger.

 I believe MLC starts very early, in my case long before there is even any replay behaviours, it starts slow and creeps up on the MLCer, until eventually they see themselves as being justified in outrageous behaviours as they are married to a monster.

 None of this is fair or true and I for one dont accept this twisted version of reality, I accept my faults and will continue to work on them, but I refuse to accept the blame for the hell of MLC visited upon me. 

We are all the lens through which we see the world and the MLCer's lens is very distorted and dark, it is dangerous to accept their vision of the world as reality.

LW

[Airmid]

First of all I don't think this thread is necessarily aimed at newbies.
Newbies are in a lot of a pain and grief and confusion.
Not all threads on the forum are for newbies - there are plenty of others that are.

The steps for a newbie in my opinion are:

1) self care - make sure you are eating, taking any required medications on time and diligently, finding stress relief actions (massage, yoga etc.)
2) find support - reach out to friends, family, an Individual Counselor/therapist (IC), your religious pastor/leader, and this forum to get support.
3) find your footing financially.  protect your finances legally if need be.


after that practice the 180s - https://beingabeautifulmess.wordpress.com/the-180/

----------------------------

But after a certain period of time - you have to get up from the car wreck and look to your own wounds.
This thread is not about immediate trauma care - it is about long term healing.
At the car accident you stabilize the patient - you stop the bleeding. Immediate care.
But afterwards you set the broken bones, you may need rehab to learn to walk again - in many ways recovery from BD is like recovering from a serious accident. Long term healing.

You - the LBSer did not cause the car wreck - but you and only you can determine the appropriate actions to heal.
Let's face it - your spouse has gone AWOL - your spouse is going to do NOTHING to help you heal.

If you are in the first phases of post BD - then you have basic immediate needs to tend to.
But usually after a year or two we have the basic needs covered - how to pay the rent - how to feed ourselves properly - how to get decent sleep. What are the steps to go beyond the basic immediate healing?

My comments were about those of us 3-4-5 and even more years out from this.
The majority of of the posters are not in reconciliation - and may never be.
But they are still struggling.
And to those people I say you have to look at what your own dynamics are - and what is possibly keeping you stuck.
If you are still acting like a hermit because the world now feels like a scary place - what are you going to do about it?
You may not have a solution right this very minute - but certainly it warrants some consideration.

Because if you don't look inward you are doomed to stay put. ....

You were not responsible for the MLC - but you may have developed some coping habits - pre-BD or post BD that are no longer serving you.

[lawprofessor]

I'm concerned that this thread is reinforcing MLCers blame game in the potentially damaged psyche of the early stage LBS.

That is certainly not the intention of Acorn's thread.  None who are writing here are early stage LBS'S. But we are members of this forum, and RCR decided a long time ago to have one forum instead of separate forums for newbies and older timers.

I like many other LBSs suffered more than one BD and after BD1 I accepted a lot of responsibility for my W's MLC and her first PA.  I tried to accept the blame on the logic that if my formerly loving wife had acted so against her previous nature and beliefs that I must have somehow broken her and I had done this unknowingly and without my W telling me.

 I worked to be a better husband and father, using CBT to address my own issues.

My W like many other MLCers had a 'return' only to have a second PA and BD again, with me again being blamed as the cause, with our M being the trigger for her behaviours.  My work on myself and changes I made were seen as too little too late, 'You had already messed me up'. 

Nothing I could do would fix in her what I had not broken.

All that is true for many of us.  But that is not what the focus of this thread is about in my opinion.  The focus is the lbs not the words of the MLCer.

My MLC W felt like she was broken by our M...  That her MLC was not to do with her life choices, lack of personal confidence, FOO issues, unresolved grief over bereavements we had suffered, etc.

Of course, the MLCer thinks the problem is all the lbs.  Perhaps just as the lbs thinks all the problems after bd are the responsibility of the MLCer.  But that's not the timeframe alone being discussed.

I believe childhood echoes forever and the seeds of MLC are sown in childhood.  My W was not the one person on planet earth who was without emotional issues from FOO, etc when we met and feel in love.  To me MLC seems far too big to have been formed in secret in a M that was not abusive or cold and indeed had many beautiful times, not least being blessed with four amazing children. 

Quite true.  I think more than one person noted in this thread including Airmid, Barbiedoll husband, and myself that the beginning of MLC happened much before the marriage as related to FOO issues.

The potential for an MLC is in us all and doesnt belong to others... MLC is an internal battle and I believe almost nothing to do with the partner who is blamed...  this blame game is selfish, lazy and too simple an explanation, but it is so much easier for the MLCer than facing the pain.

Absolutely true. But again not the topic or focus of this thread.

How many of our LBS brothers and sisters have sat, stunned like me thinking 'Was I really that bad to live with?', 'Am I now reaping what I unknowingly sowed'? 'Do I deserve this?'

I'd say many.

This I know is a very dark place to inhabit.  And with time and sincerity and a lot of work I have separated out our M issues from her MLC and now feel confident that the issues within our M are tiny compared to the hugeness of an MLC.  This took much hard work to accomplish and I too am concerned that those who are closer to BD than me will read some of this thread as a validation of MLC blaming. 

I don't see the tie to validating MLC blaming as none of what we've spoken about are things the MLCer used as justification for their actions or words.  The topic isn't the same.  The timeframe isnt the same.

As to newbies being upset or misunderstanding the thread, perhaps so, perhaps not.  So is your suggestion that older timers censor their discussions for newbies?  It was not long ago that several newbies strongly asserted they didn't want to be protected. 

MLC is amongst the most major of depressive episodes, with the extreme behaviours exhibited by the MLCer more akin to a serious psychological breakdown than to the degradation of a stagnant marriage.  The difference between a relationship breakdown and the extremes of MLC are huge and the two situations incomparable IMHO.

I did not break her and nor did our M, indeed I believe that the M prevented her from an earlier MLC as I tried to hold us together, tried to help her to fix herself by being strong for two. 

This cannot work as the MLC battle is within my W and within each MLCer.  LBS are not to blame, M is not the trigger.

That's true that the MLC is within the MLCer.  But your focus is on the MLCer.  The thread is focusing on the lbs.  No one suggested anywhere the LBS is responsible for the Mlc. We are suggesting we weren't passive furniture in our marriages and that our actions and reactions played a part for which we were responsible during courtship, during the marriage, during the mlc and after, relayed to our foo issues, our behaviors, our words, our reactions, our steps to not having our lives defined by another's MLC and pain for the rest of our lives. Notice I am focusing on the lbs, not focusing on responsibility for the Mlc or the actions of the MLCer.

 I believe MLC starts very early, in my case long before there is even any replay behaviours, it starts slow and creeps up on the MLCer, until eventually they see themselves as being justified in outrageous behaviours as they are married to a monster.

Quite true. However, that doesn't address the lbs.  That's the MLCer. 

 None of this is fair or true and I for one dont accept this twisted version of reality, I accept my faults and will continue to work on them, but I refuse to accept the blame for the hell of MLC visited upon me. 

Once again, no one asked you to accept blame for her mlc.  Quite the opposite in fact.  We are looking at and discussing possible avenues of healing for the lbs as related to self work.

We are all the lens through which we see the world and the MLCer's lens is very distorted and dark, it is dangerous to accept their vision of the world as reality.

LW

Again, the topic of the thread is not to accept the vision of the MLCer.  It's about the vision of the LBS, some years down the road.  Part of that is moving past the singular focus of fault and looking through the mlc lens because we are individuals not just the spouse of a MLCer. 

Maybe, some are missing the point of this thread because they are not as far from the bd trauma as they think.  I'm sure you meant well with your concern and post.  I simply disagree and believe you are missing the point and focus of the thread.  Maybe someday you will look back and have a different view.

Lp

[Little Wing]

Agree with what you say Airmid, but I felt that it may not be clear to a newbie that this thread was not for them in the immediate aftermath of their 'car crash'

Closer to BD i would certainly have been attracted to this post as it seems to be about the turmoil of the blame game that was so intense just after BD and thought it fair to say that there is distortion in the MLCers view of the world which can be very damaging if not recognised as being distorted. 

I dont object at all to the content of the posts, but simply wanted to voice a note of caution that this inner discourse should be approached from a safe distance from the burning car wreck.  On this we agree.

All self reflection is useful, but requires a clear eye that is not functioning just after BD, at least was not for me!

 I apologise if I appeared to be critical or dismissive of the thread of posts on it, my intention was only to protect the vulnerable who may misinterpret the purpose, as I believe I may have done closer to BD.

LW

[xyzcf]

Little Wing, I agree with you and what some others are saying about the nature of this thread perhaps being harmful to LBSers.

When people post their personal thoughts, I find it very disturbing that LP takes it upon herself to point out all the things that she sees are "wrong" with that person's point of view because they don't agree with how she sees it.

Do others think it is appropriate for another member to dissect each paragraph of someone else's thoughts and in bold state why they are wrong?

Express how you feel about a topic. We all see things very differently and there really is not a right or wrong response but putting another person's post down in this manner is not right.

It doesn't add value to the discussion, but to me appears to just want to shown some kind of superiority of another's point of view over someone who has a different idea.

[Treasur]

More and more it seems to me that there was nothing in our m that warranted the kind of destruction and behaviour from a h in some kind of crisis. It is like comparing a firework sparkler with a nuclear rocket tbh. Completely disproportionate. Whatever broke in my h, it came from his head and his choices not mine.

Sample of one.
And time and distance helps, but each LBS has to stumble along their own path to their own conclusions about their own history and experience I think.
And we won't all reach the same conclusions perhaps.
And we read with a different eye as we stumble forwards.

I do think there is a terrible and potentially self-destructive compulsion for many LBS who feel traumatised while being told that their reality is false to rewrite the past to make sense of the present. True enough.
But I also think that we need to respect that the struggle is part of the process and that different perspectives can help people figure out what is up and what is down for themselves.

My struggle now is the trauma of how I dealt with the trauma if that makes sense.
Not my xh or any of the other traumatic events....those I have dealt with....the last bit of healing - and it feels like the hardest bit - is owning my own responsibility for how I did and didn't respond to it all. There was a time when I blamed my xh for a good chunk of my PTSD. And to be fair, his behaviour was part of the events that created it. But he didn't cause it and there were other events. Blaming my xh for my PTSD did not help me heal one jot. Accepting it and owning my own choices and behaviours did and continues to do so. Much as I hate feeling like there is one more hill to climb. Sigh.

My experience of the affect of trauma is probably why I lean more towards the philosophy that trying to wrestle with a person in crisis who simply does not care what you think is best avoided as soon as you can get to the point when you can do that. A person in this kind of profound unravelling crisis is a poor investment of energy. Doing so is an opportunity to create less additional damage and rarely seems to make any constructive difference to the path of their crisis at all imho.

I honestly believe that the kindest thing I could do for both my then h and myself was to let him go. It might have been less damaging for both of us if i had been able to do that more actively and sooner. Jmo. Again sample of one.

As LP says, the view looks a bit different for some of us a few years out but it is as valid a part of the LBS experience as others. And maybe a different version of hope which is not a hostage to MLC fortune.

[3Boys4Me]

I very much appreciated your comments Little Wing and feel very similarly, nor do I think your comments were MLCer focused, they were focused on your experience of observing and experiencing your spouses MLC - so relevant to you. Thanks for your wise comments.

[Not Applicable]

I think the question actually really should be seen as: Is your spouse having an MLC (on the assumption it is due to pre-existing FOO issues, not the marriage) or was your spouse unhappy in the marriage and therefore decided to leave (and it wasn't MLC)?

Now, that may upset some people because it puts the blame on some for the breakdown of their marriage. But this is an MLC forum and I do think it is a good idea for one to be honest with oneself to see if this forum is actually even appropriate (your spouse had an MLC) or if it simply is a way to put on blinders to the reality of one's situation (they didn't).

I for one don't think the LBS can cause MLC in the first place. So therefore, it isn't MLC if it is due to the marriage.

[Not Applicable]

Little Wing, I agree with you and what some others are saying about the nature of this thread perhaps being harmful to LBSers.

When people post their personal thoughts, I find it very disturbing that LP takes it upon herself to point out all the things that she sees are "wrong" with that person's point of view because they don't agree with how she sees it.

Do others think it is appropriate for another member to dissect each paragraph of someone else's thoughts and in bold state why they are wrong?

Express how you feel about a topic. We all see things very differently and there really is not a right or wrong response but putting another person's post down in this manner is not right.

It doesn't add value to the discussion, but to me appears to just want to shown some kind of superiority of another's point of view over someone who has a different idea.

I have taught online and classroom courses. The number one rule I set for my students is it is perfectly acceptable to disagree with a person's opinion but it is not acceptable to denigrate the person for having that opinion. I see absolutely nothing wrong with what LP is doing. This is RCR's forum though and she gets to set the rules. Having had RCR thank me personally for disagreeing with her and exposing her to different viewpoints, I don't think she necessarily would see what LP is doing as wrong either.