Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Standing in Patience on September 10, 2011, 05:19:39 PM
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Does your mlcer have a CLUE that they are in a mlc?
Was it only after time passed or was there a "trigger" that caused your mlcer to "know" that they are having a mlc?
For instance, I read where one LBS read Men in Midlife Crisis and the mlc h picked up the book and recognized he has similar symptoms and began to "believe" he might be having a mlc.
Another said after speaking with a good friend who himself went through a mlc earlier now recognized he too might be having a mlc?
Did a therapist confirm it with the mlcer during their session?
Did anyone read a thread from Hero's Spouse to their mlcer? Did it trigger a response?
What keeps a mlcer from acknowledging the symptoms and the actions they carry out and words they speak might classic mlc?
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My h said at first when I shared with him I thought he might be having a mlc --- "Stop asking me if I'm having a mlc. I don't know. I am trying to figure it out."
This led me to believe that he gave it some thought in the past. Someone else may have said it to him or perhaps he came to think about it himself. I believe he does have a clue but is still in deep denial.
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Hi Standing
I think this may be a mix of situations and also some may have an inkling and be in denial about it.
One night as we were falling asleep H actuallyasked me a couple of months in, (when I was seeing a C by myself) just out of the blue, if my C thought he was in MLC.
I said yes, that was suggested, she had raised it, I then just said that the focus of the C was about me and we didnt discss him after that. He said .oh.of course,politely.
Part of me saw it as an opening to lay out some things about MLC and higlight what he was exhibiting or going through. I resisted though as I didnt think it would be a good idea.H may have thought I was " having a go" at him.
After I had answered his question about what my C said, H seemed a bit despondent and said, " well isnt that F$%^EN stereotypical! Right on target . MLC!
So, I think some do have an inkling, but it doesnt seem to be able to help them through the journey. I know a few weeks after that conversation after H had moved out and I was at his place, out of the blue he stated he doesnt know why he is doing what he is doing, but he just has to do it. He said he doesnt know how long it will last or what the outcome will be, but he just needs to do this.
H may have forgotten he even asked me about MLC or questioned if he was in it. There has been no mention since.
I must admit, in the first 3 weeks after BD, before I found this site and before C, I had come across some sites on MLC when I was looking for information to help ME cope with a leaving husband. The MLC sites were linked. Reading the markers was like reading a list of things about H.
I asked him if I could read him something and made it clear I had only come across it when I was looking for self help info for my own turmoil
After I read a few points out, he asked if he could read the article later.
so, not sure if having an inkling makes a diff really
Im rambling now
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Thank you MsZing.
Your response makes me consider the fact that my h does have lucid moments where I would have had an opportunity to "discuss" what is happening. However as of last, I now just "acknowledge" or mirror what he says to me most of the time.
That said, his mind is like swiss cheese. There have been several times he has told me something about the children (mostly logistics) and it was identical to the statement he made in just the phone call from the previous day - same words, same tone.
MsZing, you are AMaZing.
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Standing in Patience, Short answer: No
and don't tell him. I want it to be a surprise! :)
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MB, you do make me laugh! God knows, I need it.
On a related note, we have talked in the past about other men that we both know that may have had a mlc before he had his. He quickly acknowledged that he too thought they might be having a mlc - much younger girlfriend, fancy new purchase (honking size yacht), recently colored hair on a coworker buddy (trying too hard to look younger - completely grey one day and a strange brown color the next day and acting as if he always had this haircolor).
And yet my h decided to leave marriage, leave w, leave children, quit job, and move to the other side of the country. Really, h.
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Some months ago, mine blurted out over the phone "I think I'm having a MLC or something!!" I replied calmly "Well, you wouldn't be the first person to have one..." and that was the last I heard of that.
I told him of my BF's husband's emotional breakdown and hospitalization recently.... he asked "What from?" and I answered.... "Depression..." went right over his head, and when I answered a question from him with "I LIVE with a depressed person...." he became MONSTER and told me I didn't know what I was talking about....
They will NOT recognize it in themselves... I believe MONSTER keeps those thoughts at bay when they pop up.... no point in pointing it out to them anyway, as even if they see they are having one, they won't do anything about it..... they must just muddle through.
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Standing in Patience, Short answer: No
and don't tell him. I want it to be a surprise! :)
Ahahahahah!
No, mine does not have a clue.
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My wife told me that she was mentally ill when she married me, but is sorted now.
She told me that when her parents split up when she was 17 ( because of an awful incident involving her and her dad ) that it derailed her, and then after her dad died she was able to re-rail herself. Derailing me and our family in the process.
So for my wife, she believes that her life is on a good course now, and the past, old wife's life was the one that was in crisis.
One day, I hope it all becomes clear.
bnw
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My h's mother had her own mlc and he lived through it when he was young and observed her comings and goings. H recognizes that mlc condition exists and yet appears not to recognize his own. Amazing, huh.
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When I asked my MLCer 2 years ago he said he didn't know because he didn't know what it felt like. I can't wait to ask him when this is all said and done if he felt like he had a MLC and see what he says.
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When my ex came back for a short time six months after BD, I told him that he was having an MLC and he agreed that he thought he must be.
A couple of weeks later when we was back with OW and declaring that their relationship was permanent this time and they thought the same about everything, I said that I thought it was MLC (didn't realise at the time this was NOT the thing to do!). He replied "Well, if it was that I would be stupid, wouldn't I?"
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I don't really know whether she "knows" or not, however, during her stalking phase of me, she made up computer user names like, "anne.replay" for an e-mail address, and her divorce busting name is "replay" although she never made any posts with these names.
Her name here is "Divorce", since she registered here right after she filed.
So she did seem to be trying to send me a message I think.
So thinking about this, the pattern has been for her to use names based on the mental state that she was in at the time.
Maybe it was subliminal, IDK.
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My S23 told my H the week of the BD that he was going through MLC. My H told me this and I told him "Our S is right, you are going through it." That week, as I read more about it, I read him the indicators and he said "Now I just feel lame." H and I talk a lot about his journey and finding himself. He likes to call it a "transition." We discussed the difference between a transition and a crisis. He has admitted that he thinks he is going through MLC, but does not want to look anything up about it or work on it until he gets by himself (should be today or tomorrow when he moves out). I hope it is like alcoholics anonomous where admitting you have a problem is the first step.. we will see.
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Not sure, but he would never admit it if he did ......
He's admitted that he knows there is something wrong with him, that he doesn't know who he is any more, that he is incapable of having a relationship with me or anyone (- poor OW - he probably should share that piece of information with her. In fact I bet he has - she'd scrabble her needy way back in)
SP - I do think it is like AA where admitting you have a problem is the first step.
My H has admitted he knows he's addicted to work and OW. But said in a slightly panicked kind of way - 'Oh but I'm not ready to do anything about it yet!' Hmmmmmmmm. First steps in a process that takes YEARS. Take a seat .... you'll need it
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The week my H was getting ready to move out, I had a talk with him about a few things and told him that my mum thought it may be a MLC. he agreed that was possible. Although, I really feel that neither my mother or H or I really knew what that meant at the time. I mean, how serious that statement could be.
Not long after, when we were both in a mediation session H was very angry and stated his mother thought he was having a MLC and told him and he appeared very insulted by her observation. I think in those few weeks he moved very deeply into the dark pit of the tunnel.
Looking back, when H left for a few days the first time, I tried to talk to him the second night he was back. He got really upset, said he was tired and went to bed. The next day I got an apology text where H also stated he was 'emotionally confused'. Again, I didn't understand MLC at the time so didn't notice this comment until a few weeks ago when I accidentally found this text in my in box again.
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no, my xh does not have a clue he is in a mlc
He did get upset when I told him in 2008, 2009 2010 and in 2011 and told me to stop analyzing him.
In 2008 he said he changed, and he needs to go on a journey.
He is sorry if he will hurt everyone, and he hopes on day we will forgive him.
He told our daughter he wants three years fro this journey, he would like ten, but he believes it is asking too much.
He still does not have a clue he is in mlc. He believes people change and move on
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No, my H denies he is having a MLC even though everyone where he works told him he was having one. Right after BD I looked up MLC and knew thats what was going on with him. Yesterday was an unbelievable day for H and I. We had a long talk. I am going to start a new thread soon and update you all on what has happened.
NB
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NB, We'll be waiting. ::)
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OP,
My h said I am "rewriting history" when h is rewriting our family history. Like other LBS I've noted he mentions different timelines when we were conversing by phone, email or text. H said that he hasn't been happy for ten years, etc. That in itself was my first clue that he might be having a mlc. I believe he has been irritable for nearly two yrs before BD (so that's my sense of the timeline). And how come he didn't discuss that with me? He said he expected me to read clues and he was dropping hints along the way. I am beginning to believe this has a lot to do with his own expectations that I should be able to read his mind and be the fixer again.
I wonder if they are reading sites on mlc and using the same "terms" we use on purpose or do they really believe this stuff.
Anyone out there - Did anyone read a thread from Hero's Spouse to their mlcer? Did it trigger a response? Positively or negatively?
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SIP, One time after BD and his resurfacing 6 weeks later..He said something about his plans for the week. I said "I am not focused on your journey anymore. I am focused on my OWN JOURNEY." Something I read here once or twice ::)
LOL
He opened his eyes WIDE and said "Oh Wow!" :o :o :o
That's all I ever said from this site!
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I met with a counselor that I knew fairly well just a couple of weeks after bomb drop. He told me he thought my wife was going through MLC and not to mention MLC to her because of the negative label associated with it. Most other resources I have read indicate the same thing. I do not know if anyone has mentioned MLC to my ex-wife, but as we start closing in on two years since bomb drop, she has not said anything about it....nor have I.
The Instructions for Newbies thread on this forum gives some insight as well.
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My W said that her supervisor told her she was having an MLC when she found out about her filing for D. It was a shock to everyone in her office as she had NEVER complained about me I'm told and always talked about things we did together and places we went. She's worked there for 12 years.
My W laughed and made a joke about it.
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I can honestly not answer this. I have no clue where his head is. The last time I saw him he looked like he was 80 years old, had a grey mullet, jowls and couldn't look me in the eye. And he couldn't speak to me. I knew.. I know.... him?? No clue.
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My H knows something is wrong but I don't think for a moment he would say he was in MLC... H is "VERY HAPPY" well at least that's what he told my S.. He knows he has feelings of anxiety but puts that down to me :-( Our S rightly or wrongly recently told him to 'get help' - will H? No as OW doesn't give him the room or time to consider the wrecking ball he has taken to his life.. That is,as they say, his problem. I think when he admitted to our S he had problems from childhood that is something, but being with OW won't help him solve them.
Foxy xxx
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I made the mistake of bringing up the subject of MLC about 3 months in; that backfired on me a couple of years later when he said "you still think I'm having a midlife crisis", when he was adamantly saying he was just moving on, he couldn't get his feelings back for me, all the rest of the familiar stuff.
Actually, very early on, before I really knew much about MLC I talked to him in all seriousness about depression, as that is something I have experienced, and I know how much it can colour everything. He went away and thought, then said no, that isn't it. Ha.
Around 4 moths in he did once ask "do you think this might all be in my head?", but that didn't go anywhere.... he was right back to "I don't know if I want you in my life".
However, sometime in the year before he left he came upstairs one day and asked if I thought he was having an MLC..... at the time I said no -- I hadn't a clue about it...
And about 18 months ago, when he was realising that he had made a major mistake with a business venture and wanted out, he asked if I thought it was a weakness to admit a mistake (I said no, quite the opposite), and then sat and said "maybe I'm just continuing my midlife crisis". By then I had thankfully learned enough not to react. I'll take that as a moment of clarity.
So he may have thought it, but if he did, he now thinks that he is out, as he is happy with his new business venture and "finally truly happy" with latest OW.
Upshot: they might get glimmers of clarity, but push those away quickly.
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No clue. I think my best friend is sliding right into one, based upon things she is saying. After almost two years of hearing me go on and on about MLC, since I have a clinging boomerang and so hear a lot of "crazy talk", you would think something would resonate..... I've talked and talked about this forum, about the symptoms of MLC and the connection to depression, but it goes right over her head.
She said the other night "I know this sounds crazy, but I feel like an entity has attached itself to me.... like my insides are all in the wrong place... I feel so uncomfortable that every time I set foot in this house I want to RUN and RUN!! Every night I look at real estate in North Carolina and dream of what it would be like to just move there and be by myself...." and this is a woman who sees a therapist every week for 20 years.... but she doesn't have any problems, because she "has done the work" and no one else does, according to her. She came out and said she didn't care if people chose to stay with cheating spouses.... but she wishes they would just TELL THE TRUTH and admit "My husband cheats on me, but I don't want to leave, so I put up with it." :o :o :o Pretty sure that was directed at me, LOL!!
We are just now seeing adds for "Low T" on television, and I believe it is a step in the right direction.... it also tells you there are many men seeking some sort of physical support from their doctors. Don't know about women, because we get thrown the "It's just menopause" bone...
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Even though my H asked me before he moved out, if my C thought he was in MLC, he has not used that term since. He says that things change, life happens, that's life.
I never mention it nor have I read any threads from here.
I think when he was trying to work himself out ( HAHAHA) he was trying to hang his hat on something and mentioned MLC, but as hehas been mmoving along it is really just saying the above and repeating that he doesnt know what is happening, why he is doing it, when it will end or what it will look like at the end
For some reason though, he seems to have 2 years in his head as a timeline for "it" to last. He also had a timeline for how long things werent right in our marriage. 1 and 1/2 yrs
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At the very beginning when he left and gave me the speech, I asked him if he was having one of those midlife crisis thingies. He said "Of course not!" and in my head I was saying "Of course you are!" I did pass on a few books for him to read not really about MLC but there was one hidden in there but I never pointed it out to him. I thought that one day he may realise, hey my wife gave me this book, she really was trying to help me! Long shot I know!
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There was a time, back in around Jan or Feb That I read LG's thread to my H.
I also read articles about MLC to him, He didnt get upset. in fact he agreed with alot of it.
My H knows about this site....one time when we were in a deep discussion, I asked him if he thought
I would lie to him about what he is going through? He said no. He knew I was telling him the truth.
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Synnica, No A lot of alcoholics I know can see it in others but not THEMSELVES! ::) People sometimes only see and hear what they want to see and hear. especially about themselves. What else is MLC but a running away from looking at yourself. Trying to start over with a clean slate. Too bad the other slate they had is thrown under the bus! :'(
I think I was answering a question from a previous page that asked "Can't they see MLC in themselves?"
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I swear, is my W the only freaking one out there who doesn't admit or doesn't realize that she's going through something?!? She says she jus saw an opportunity and decided to jump at it and not look back. This just pi**es me off to no end that she is so adamant about not being wrong that she will push this to the ends of the Earth. It's all me that's wrong and she wants away from me. She's not going through anything, I'm just an a-hole. An a-hole that sacrifices everything for her kids but still an a-hole. Damn it.
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MsZing, mine has hinted at a timeline of two years as well.... :o :o WTH??
He also continually says he doesn't know why he does the things he does, but that it will get better, he promises! So, perhaps it's like they are in prison, and all of our anger and pushing to get them to "make a decision" is ridiculous.... they can't get out before their sentence ends!
Thundarr, your wife is too new in the prison system.... she hasn't been scared straight yet, LOL!! Give her time.... she'll figure out she's going through SOMETHING, but she may never admit it to you. They think they are going crazy a lot of the time... and it's scary.... so better to put the blame on YOU and the marriage for stressing her out to that point... for keeping her "down". My husband has used every line in the MLC script including "I feel like I missed out on some things"..... and he consistently uses "I'ts not you, it's me...."
They know something is wrong, but they can't figure out what.
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I think my W may have said at one time that this was about her,not me. But, every other time has been "It's not me, it's you." In regular breakups, saying "it's not you, it's me" really means "it's you." So, with MLC being opposite and all, maybe "it's not me, it's you" mght mean "it's me." I don't freaking know.
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Thundarr,
From what I've read here and in other places, I think women are more reluctant to see that they are in MLC. I might be wrong...but that's been my take.
My H realized what it was before I did though he found it very embarrassing and still denied that everything he said or did was due to MLC. Now he says he's all done with MLC. LOL!!!!!!
hahahahahahhahahahahahaha!
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Letting GO
I must say the timeline thing is interesting! Are they thinking that theyu just want to party for 2 years? well, not thinking , but driven . I dont thinking really comes in to it.
After initially crying the day of BD I have not cried in front of him, not begged or pleaded or anything else. Dont even contact him unless it is in response to a txt from him.
He told me I am wonderful and have been so good to him and he doesnt want to hurt me. I pointed out it was too late he already had!
Im just leaving him to it..the journey he is on is HIS. I have my own
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My H has read a lot about MLC the past few months and says that he is a typical example. I think maybe he's starting to think he can use it as an excuse for more bad behaviour! Maybe its better if they don't actually realise, but the LBS is the one with all the knowledge.
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lpxpe,
I agree. As I wrote before, my H told me...not the other way around..that he was having an MLC. I thought this was good and in some ways, I think this knowledge has kept him from going too far off the deep end but now I also realize that it has been used as an excuse to explain things which require more explaining. At times, he has seen it as a pass for bad behavior which it of course is not. And that is quite galling.
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Well, just going on record as saying I don't believe they are that diabolical to use MLC as an excuse..... most of them are pretty darn miserable after the first few months of replay behavior.. it still sucks, but sick people aren't out to get you....
I think the timeline is some INNER clock that they feel.....
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Sorry but you don't know my H ... its his birthday tomorrow, my D's (age13) had got his presents for him, then he saw them yesterday and said he is busy till next Monday ... they are so disappointed and hurt. He uses the excuse of MLC as he has just reconnected with OW and is going to be busy with her and his drinking buddies ... his birthday being the excuse. I know he's not happy either, but these fixes of pleasure sure give him a buzz that he doesn't like to miss for anything, not even his children, whom I know he loves very much. He is an addict to the high and he uses MLC as an excuse to justify it ... he's said that to me, I'm sure he's looked at this forum ... he goaded me with it just yesterday, MLC takes time you know ... those were his words.
He may just surprise us and show up ... who knows, sometimes his guilt gets the better of him. We'll see.
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Update ... think guilt did get the better of him this time! He's coming to see the girls tonight he said, so we surprised him with some presents and cards this morning! Wonder if he'll turn up? No expectations here.
Oh what a rollercoaster, personally I always did get motion sickness.
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From what I've read here and in other places, I think women are more reluctant to see that they are in MLC. I might be wrong...but that's been my take.
There may be some truth in this. My W wasn't having crisis in her view. In her mind she had "discovered" herself. It wasn't that she was reluctant to see anything wrong, there was nothing wrong to see. The notion that there was anything wrong would not have been part of her thinking. The blinkers had come off and she could now "see" life clearly. The fact that she had to hurt people was just something that had to happen, she had to do what was right for her. She wrote in a Xmas card to our daghter "I am sorry I have hurt you. I am not being selfish but I have to do what is right for me". That is how she was the last time I saw and spoke to her (3rd Dec 2010). Her mindset may have changed now, I have no way of knowing.
Note in her words the contradiction "I'm not being selfish but I have to do what is right for me" and the absence of empathy in her actions.
So, mine didn't have a clue she was having a Mid-Life-Crisis. In her mind she had had an awakening.
honour
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LettingGo,
Your take on diabolical vs. misery was very interesting to me. I've been thinking about this.
I am in agreement that someone who is sick isn't out to get someone but with that said, there is such a propensity for deceit and cruelty during MLC, I can't rule out diabolical behavior. I don't want to compare an MLCer to a serial killer (lol) but let's say for example that a serial killer is a sociopath by virtue of their genetic makeup coupled with their environment (I tend to think this condition is a result of nature and nurture). Either way, they are a sociopath so this condition means they are mentally ill. But with that said, their behavior is cunning, diabolical and narcisistic. I think on some level they are miserable as well.
I think in the case of an MLCer, yes, they certainly are miserable and confused. But I've been miserable and depressed and even confused before but I've never needed to lie or be deceptive or take out my problems by attacking or hurting or denegrating someone I love consistently. So based on that, I can't see that their misery alone can cause all this horrible, and particularly the deceptive behavior that so many of us have experienced.
This has been one of the things that has so confounded me during H's MLC. I "get" the dissatisfaction and the "is this all there is" and the worries of aging, and even the anger and etc. But what I never understood was the lying, cruelty and deception that resulted from all these issues. I still don't even though I've read 100 stories of similar patterns.
The explanation my H gives about "because I'm in MLC" may be true...no, it is true actually. But I still believe that he feels this blanket statement will allow him to avoid facing truths and responsibilities for damage. That is where I see it as perhaps not diabolical but certainly a cop out. That's just my take...and I didn't mean to hijack so sorry to the OP.
Honour,
I may be all wet in my opinion and perhaps it is because there are less men here and on other forums for me to get a better sampling but just based on anecdotal evidence, and what I've seen from female friends of mine in my own life, I see a sense of entitlement coming from women that makes them less likely to ackowledge they have a problem or to at least make this realization sooner. I'm of course not saying this is always the case...but women often feel overburdened and very much unappreciated so I've often seen a lot of "I'm going to get what I deserve" in a harsher and longer way than I see from men...again, this is a broad brush statement and I do realize that. Just my thoughts...
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but women often feel overburdened and very much unappreciated
I wish I could say this was the case in my sitch because it would make more sense.
My W was most definitely appreciated. My W and I were out having date nights and spending time together as much as was possible. It was very easy to spent time with her and enjoy her company and to praise her. She was a striking beautiful women, extraordinarily young looking for age. I work in visual arts, I know a beautiful face when I see one. An example: one weekend in July 2010 when she was home from working abroad, we were having a meal together outside in the sunshine (she was already cheating on me at this point but I didn't know at the time), the sun was catching her hair and she looked just wonderful, I said to her, "[insert W's name] the sun is catching your hair, it looks golden, you are so beautiful". What did she do? She looked away and scornfully said you are drunk! At any other time in our 33 year relationship she would have accepted the compliment with the sincerity with which it was given. That incident was a small piece in the jigsaw that made me feel increasingly nervous as summer 2010 progressed and she continued to work abroad.
When MLC hits, being appreciated or unappreciated in the marriage makes no difference. The psychosis removes any empathy from their thinking. The absence of empathy gives them the sense of entitlement and the LBS becomes roadkill.
It is just so ironic when you read about women in loveless marriage. I can only think my W needed a break from the adoration.
My daughter summed it up when she said, "it is just a waste of love".
None of it makes any sense, but then we know that now.
honour
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Honour,
Your statement is spot on:
"When MLC hits, being appreciated or unappreciated in the marriage makes no difference. The psychosis removes any empathy from their thinking. The absence of empathy gives them the sense of entitlement and the LBS becomes roadkill."
As I've written before, my husband knew I adored him and I told him he was appreciated, extraordinarly handsome, smart, blah, blah, pretty much every day. Made no difference. In fact, when complimenting him or encouraging him during his MLC, I was told that my opinion didn't matter because as his wife, I was "biased" and besides, he needed validation from others, not me. That was his statement, not mine. How sad that the only validation I wanted was from him, but instead received the opposite. As your daughter said, what a waste.
:(
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I was told that my opinion didn't matter because as his wife, I was "biased" and besides, he needed validation from others, not me.
Their self-esteem is so low they do indeed need validation from others, or at least they think they do. What they need is to heal their wounds that cause them to feel so insecure. They need to build their house on rock.
honour
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Again I agree with Honour and BonBon.
I would absolutely fall over if my W even indicated that something MIGHT be amiss. She bulldozed over everything and continues to justify to the kid why she is doing what she's doing. She's completely oblivious to the hurt they feel, and even tells them they are not really sad about her moving out and only seeing them twice a week for about an hour. My D10 said that if she cries on the phone, my W will tell her to shut up and then hang up.
And this from a woman who has been a wonderful companion for 21 years and a terrific mom for 18? I can't imagine what force could possibly blind her to hurting her own children. PPD is one parallel, but this is a different animal altogether.
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As my H is a doctor, and MLC is not a classified mental illness, he could not admit to having something that doesn't exist. OW, also a doctor, laughed when she heard (through the grapevine) that others regarded his behaviour as MLC.
At first, as in almost all cases I have seen here, H was angry at and resentful of me. However, he did admit that he felt very confused, had a total loss of any type of emotion, and (eventually) said was not my fault, but that he needed to make sense of his life.
I don't think the psychosis removes the empathy, but rather the other way round; anhedonia (loss of feeling) leads to a loss of meaning of their lives and a sense of alienation. This arises from an inability to cope with their life as it is, the lack of resources to deal with the stresses they are faced with on a daily basis until they are overwhelmed.
Neurologically, rational behaviour is rooted in emotions and a value system in the brain called somatic marker mechanisms. With the disfunction of the value system, behaviour cannot be rational.
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Mermaid,
My father was a doctor and suffered from panic attacks. He would never admit that panic was the problem. Actually, he was a cardiologist and whenever he would be about to travel (which was often), he would wind up in the emergency room, fearing a heart attack. There were other triggers as well that would always end in the same result. There were no heart attacks of course. My grandmother also suffered these. And I do too. I've done plenty of research on these and found that people can be genetically pre-disposed to panic attacks so yes, they do run in families at times.
My point here is you are also illustrating two doctors who refuse to believe in an emotional/phsychological condition. Not uncommon but pretty narrow minded. I am sure that in his work, your husband has seen people act out with psychological maladies from time to time. But of course it can't apply to him...that does not surprise me. Geesh.
Thundarr,
That is one of the saddest stories I've read in regards to children. They are all sad but your wife seems to be particularly cold in terms of this if you don't mind my saying. I am sorry. That is just awful. I hope they someday hear apologies and explanations and see a wonderful mother emerging again and they can recover from the hurt she is inflicting.
Bon
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At first, as in almost all cases I have seen here, H was angry at and resentful of me. However, he did admit that he felt very confused, had a total loss of any type of emotion, and (eventually) said was not my fault, but that he needed to make sense of his life.
This is very interesting Mermaid. I have read an account of a recovered MLCer who spoke of a loss of feeling and how she woke up one morning with all her emotional attachments gone. She said is was a terrifying place to be.
honour
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Neurologically, rational behaviour is rooted in emotions and a value system in the brain called somatic marker mechanisms. With the disfunction of the value system, behaviour cannot be rational.
Mermaid - thanks for mentioning this. I'm going to look into this further and see what I can find.
We know so very little about the brain, but I firmly believe that there would have to be some severe disruption to the normal function of our spouses brains for them to be behaving so bizarrely.
Honour - Sept 2009 - was the day my H woke up with all of his emotional attachments gone. I know as I felt it. I remember saying to him 'my god - you've gone completely now'. I remember he just looked at me and said in a robotic voice that he no longer missed the boys and I whenever he went away for work (which had become frequent).
I was scared - he must have been terrified too. No wonder they grab onto the first log that they can find (OW) to stop them 'drowning'
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Hi this confuses me :o :o :o :o :o doesn’t take much lol..........but if the mlcer as lost emotional attachment how comes they can find it for ow/om may only be temporary but its still there .........think i may after look for info on this too xxxxxxxxxx
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I don't believe they feel true emotion. My W complained of feeling no passion in our relationship around the time of BD even though we were having sex multiple times a day. She stated that she felt no bond or emotion whatsoever. Now, she seems disconnected and detached from the kids and does not appear to miss them when she goes days without seeing or speaking to them. Two months ago was the first time she had ever gone a day without seeing or speaking to her kids in 18 years so I have no doubt that something must have tripped almost like a light switch. That would explain the soulless, dark eyes that most of us see. It could also help to explain the sociopathic behaviors that our spouses engage in that are on contrast to what we knew their moral code to be.
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That is a question I would like an answer too. I keep reading that the MLCer has no emotional attachment but they are attached to the OW. My H told me last Saturday that his relationship with his OW is nothing, it means nothing. Why doesn't he get rid of her then?
So frustrated tonight.
I have so much respect for you LBS'ers who have been at this for 1 1/2 to 2 years, some longer. I am 7 months since BD and I am ready to lose my mind. Seriously!
NB
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Found this quite interesting for us and the mlcers there’s some quotes at the bottom too xxxxxxxxxxxxx
The May 2010 issue of the, Journal of Neurophysiology, contained a study of love or at least of unrequited love or of broken love or of never-had-but-thought-I-did-have love!
And the questions are: Do the wrenching stories of heart-break and heartache get translated into a changed brain with neuro chemicals gone wild? Is love really a drug? Yes and yes. Why so many brain studies and not more studies of the early environment of the people who get devastated by love rejection? Why are those imaging machines so popular? Don't know and don't know. But, brain studies did show that the emotions felt by those who had been rejected were the real thing. Art Aron, Ph.D., plies his craft at NYU-Stonybrook. He and four researchers likened to what the love rejectee's felt as similar "to what a cocaine addict suffers when giving up his drug." Good comparison!
Aron, a social psychology professor, has been studying the subject for 30 years. The latest study comprised 10 women and five men selected by a flier that inquired: "Have you just been rejected in love, but can't let go?" All volunteers were unanimous in reporting "obsessive thinking and craving for emotional union." They cried, they begged, they telephoned and they e-mailed. They also began drinking too much. Gotta keep the pain and tension down.
They figured that they thought about their "ex" about 85% of the time. But the origin of those bad feelings were from remarkably early stored memories in their unconscious so how could they have known the real source of their misery? How could they endure the truth? Well, only in a measured dribbling fashion as it was a devastating feeling for a baby to experience.
Inside of a brain imaging device they were shown photos of the one who split from them alternated with "neutral" persons. The result was that two areas of the brain showed where their present feelings on the image of choice resided. Just like drug addicts, number one was a dopamine-laden area that mediates brain reward systems. (It also displays when one is feeling loving and lovable). The second area is one dealing with "drug cravings and addiction." No surprises here and no surprises there.
Here's another all too typical example of too much reliance on understanding neuronal activity during a time of crisis and not enough on exploring the ultimate causes of why those guys and gals were feeling so miserable. For them it was crisis-time, although hopefully only temporary as most folk's defenses will again solidify. However some never recoup the ability to re-defend as efficiently as before the negative love experience as their defenses had become too fragile. Wouldn't it be a much better learning and treatment experience for all by exploring why such strong feelings were triggered in some in the first place? What special earlier history did those who were easy to trigger but difficult to re-defend possess?
Would it not be more productive to study or examine the cause of the crisis upset due to rejection? You won't learn much neurology that way but you might very well learn much clinical psychology relating to the imperative need of love by babies. Learning which parts of the brain light up when the in loco parentis withholds love? I'd hope that the love deprived would get good therapy instead.
The news release editor (Ellen McCarthy who does her thing at the Washington Post) concludes with a quote from Aron reminding us that a "stiff upper lip", "a box of tissues", and a pint of "Ben & Jerry's" are just not enough to make those unpleasant feelings go away.
"If we break an arm and take painkillers for a week, everyone understands where the pain is, how bad it might be, and the necessity for taking painkillers....
But what if we have a broken heart?"
-- Arthur Janov, Ph.D. in Primal Healing
The reader is reminded that the study also showed that those who had been rejected the longest time had the least amount of activity in those parts of the brain which mediate bonding between other folks. But those are the lucky ones. Some victims, despite the help from all the king's horses and all the shrinkmen seem never able to put Humpty-Dumpty back together again. Aron writes about the decreasing symptomology of the love rejectees: "It's consistent with the notion that time heals wounds."
The canard is usually that "time heals all wounds," but I guess Dr. Aron knows that version of the saying is not the real truth and neither was it for me. Au contraire!
British psychiatrist, Frank Lake wrote: "Time does not heal fixated wounds...If the infant spirit is thrust at the suffering end of a broken relationship, it is literally swallowed up in fear, panic, or dread." Like myself, Dr. Lake, is concerned about the 'problem of evil' as he goes on to ask about God's tolerance for the injustice and suffering endured by the unloved infant: "Could He stand up to so many death-wishes against Himself, so much hatred of His policy (and) envy of His power...Could he keep His self-respect when He learned that so many innocent babes had been flung into the abyss of dereliction?" [ Clinical Theology (1966), pps. 189-190.]
Personally, I never did get over that experience of rejection completely and was left with more insomnia, more anxiety, etc. But then, I hadn't gotten over that first early experience of rejective despair either. After opening up that old wound I could not get it to close-up again to the extent it was defended against before. The original wounds were from the womb, from the birth canal and from the crib.
"In this way a pain now, a rejection, can resonate with serious past rejection from our parents and thereby produce an anxiety attack. It gives weight to the present reaction, which may seem inordinate, but in reality is the bottom rung of a neuronal circuit."
-- Arthur Janov, Ph.D. Why We Root for the Dodgers - a blog article
Later, there was another woman I wanted to date and another rejective experience had stirred up the contents of my unknown mind.† After a number of anxiety attacks, and a number of shrinks, and a number of dollars, I am sorry to report that I had not become healed. For one moment, it seemed that I had begun the healing process, as the psychologist asked me to tell him about my mother. I became speechless as waves of warmth traveled from my feet to my head.
I had been on the cusp of an important truth, a breakthrough was trying to well - breakthrough, but unfortunately the subject was never brought up again! But I had learned it was about Mom because after that experience, he asked me to talk about Daddy (I'm from the South) and the information about him had flowed freely from my being. Sadly, that's as far as we went with that only Mama opportunity I was to have with that particular therapist. Sadly, the paydirt was presented but had not been mined. Many years later, additional work with gestalt therapy was to make it possible for me to begin self-regressive psychotherapy, I had finally begun the healing process. Notice that I did not write that I finished it. No one ever does!
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† In his final work, Mutual Caring, (1982) British psychiatrist Frank Lake describes how womb crises, birth crises and later ones of babyhood can be uncovered and break out from repression during some childhood, adolescent or adult crisis. Such nervous breakdowns can be triggered by a negative miserable failure or rejection, which, due to the strength of the memory, becomes impossible to re-repress again. The reaction, occurring perhaps many decades after the original assault, is disproportionate to the severity of the present day hurt which nonetheless contains the kindred feelings of the original primal trauma which provide the essential resonance in the present. [ ibid.. (2009), p. 76.]
That's how it happens and that's why it hurts so much.
The quotations below support that reality. Hopefully, too many will be enough.
Love
Quotes
"The. . . unquestioning love of our parents is so deeply rooted that hardly anything can destroy it, and certainly not insight into the truth. It is grounded in the natural need to love and be loved."
-- Dr. Alice Miller in Paths of Life
"Now the idea that our parents did not love us well or sufficiently is one that creates enormous resistance in people. Better to believe the fault lies within us, then at least we maintain the illusion that we can win their love if only we cut our hair, take a bath, become a doctor, marry the right person, earn more money, call home more often -- you fill in the blanks to fit the situation."
-- Bernie S. Siegel M. D. in Peace, Love and Healing
"There is nothing which is more necessary and more precious in the experience of human childhood than parental love.... nothing more precious, because the parental love experienced in childhood is moral capital for the whole of life.... It is so precious, this experience, that it renders us capable of elevating ourselves to more sublime things--even divine things. It is thanks to the experience of parental love that our soul is capable of raising itself to the love of God.
--Valentin Tomberg - Russian Christian Mystic
"The stress of our lives and tension which emerges has much more relationship to our early histories than to our daily lives in the present. . . Even when one cries for a parent at a funeral, the agonizing quality of the grief derives from infancy, when love-loss was totally unbearable, much less from the present."
-- E. Michael Holden, M.D. in The Journal of Primal Therapy - Winter 1976
". . . (T)he most painful disease I have every seen is that of an unloved child."
-- Dr. Bernie Siegel
". . . (T)he 'Casanova syndrome,' which compels a man to try to show himself that he is lovable by making up in numbers of conquests what is missing in the special quality of love that should have been found in his mother, the kind that assures one of one's existence and one's worth."
-- Jean Liedloff in The Continuum Concept
"Every case of psychotherapy, to a greater or lesser extent, is a problem of a failure to love."
-- Paul Fleischman, M.D.
"The first real choice a human baby must make is whether to trust or mistrust other humans. This basic trust-versus-mistrust stage is the first building block upon which all later love relationships are formed."
--Dr. Ken Magid and Carole A. McKelvey in High Risk
"To be fully open to the baby's emotional needs is to become reacquainted with oneself as a baby, to reexperience the pain of being totally dependent and desperate in love and yet being shut out and feeling unwanted."
-- Robert Karen, Ph.D.
"Ninety percent of the people I meet are dealing with issues they can't overcome because of bad parenting. That's the truth. There's that side of you that says, `Time to get over the hurt and move on,' ... It's hard to do. So you just hang on to the emotion that this one didn't love me, or why didn't that relationship last? That stuff stays with you forever. You want to say, `Get over yourself! Come on! Time to grow up!' Some people are able to do that, but a lot of us remain victims of it. So I was fortunate with my parents."'
-- Leonardo Dicaprio, movie actor in Parade Magazine, Oct 5, 2008
"I have never known a patient to portray his parents more negatively than he actually experienced them in childhood, but always more positively -- because idealization of his parents was essential for survival."
-- Alice Miller, Ph.D.
"Parents are a serious adaptive problem for the infant.
-- Weston LaBarre, Anthropologist
"People who have been traumatically abused are saddled with the worst expectations - terrifying anxiety, loss of control, feeling like killing and being killed,(and) being alone and unable to survive in a murderous universe."
-- Leonard Shengold, M.D.
"...Probably no adult misery can be compared with a child's despair."
-- Iris Murdoch
"The first notion of identity in the infant, what is most his own, comes from the outside. . . through the mother's gaze, the infant (receives) precise instructions as to "who he is" and "how he must be" in order to be loved and recognized. . . "
-- Raquel Zak
"Some women have children only to express how desperately they want to be loved as only babies are loved, and to try to wrest from the experience of giving birth the nurturance they never received from their mother."
-- Jane Swigert in The Myth of the Bad Mother
"Our early lessons in love and our developmental history shape the expectations we bring into marriage."
-- Judith Viorst
"You show me a murderer and I'll show you a person who's been failed in the supreme need for love -- who never learned how to love. . . ."
-- Dr. Ashley Montagu in Touch the Future
"The expectation that her search for love will be rewarded at last by her own love-needy infant is the tragedy of many a woman. And of course, it is a looming factor in the quality of deprivation suffered by the child. . . What could be more pathetic than a child crying for want of mothering and the mother striking out at it because it is not mothering her in answer to her longing?"
-- Jean Liedloff in The Continuum Concept
Our national spotlight should clearly be on the crib -- not on the criminal -- if we are to change the future. Infants who do not receive a warm welcome into the world will seek their revenge."
-- Dr. Ken Magid and Carole A. McKelvey in High Risk
"The trauma that causes neurosis is lack of love and attention from parents."
-- Thomas A. Stone in Cure By Crying
"Each generation begins anew with fresh, eager, trusting faces of babies, ready to love and create a new world. And each generation of parents tortures, abuses, neglects and dominates its children until they become emotionally crippled adults who repeat in nearly exact detail the social violence and domination that existed in previous decades."
-- Lloyd deMause in The Psychogenic Theory of History
"How can we have the courage to wish to live, how can we make a movement to preserve ourselves from death, in a world where love is provoked by a lie and consists solely in the need of having our sufferings appeased by whatever being has made us suffer?"
-- Marcel Proust
"We call a person 'normal' if the self-deception that he uses to repress, deny, displace, and rationalize those basic wounds that are ubiquitous in human beings from babyhood works quite well. He is 'normal' in so far as his defenses against too much painful reality are as successful as (all unbeknown to the person himself) they are meant to be." -- Frank Lake, M.D.
"The fact that many people find romantic excitement in a lover who displays the qualities of a rejecting parent, an excitement that they do not find in others, suggests the degree to which they remain not just committed to but enthralled by early attachment figures. They can't let go of the mother or father who didn't love them the way they needed to be loved. And they continue to be betwiched by the hurtfulness that compromised their care."
"(It) feels like giving up love itself. And so one seeks love in return .. . An obvious corollary is that the prospect of being (cared for) in a truly loving way is undermined at every turn; indeed, it feels perversely unacceptable."
-- R. Karen Becoming Attached
"Our unique desire and ability to fall in love have to do with attachment experiences we all had very early in life, before we even knew what was happening to us. Attachment leaves such a lasting impression that much of our later life is spent trying to recreate its specific character, for better for worse. We are intensely attracted to those particular individuals who resonate with our earliest emotional map."
-- Robert W. Godwin, Ph.D. in One Cosmos under God
"In every nursery there are ghosts," such that "a parent and his child may find themselves re-enacting a moment or a scene from another time with another set of characters."
-- Selma Fraiberg
". . . the rage of psychopaths is that born of unfulfilled needs as infants. Incomprehensible pain is forever locked in their souls, because of the abandonment they felt as infants."
-- Dr. Ken Magid and Carole A. McKelvey in High Risk
"The catecholamines which convey the 'messages' to do with emotions round the mother's circulation, gearing all her organs and cells to feeling joy or sorrow, love or loathing, vitality or exhaustion, pass through the placental barrier (which to these substances is no barrier) into the foetal blood stream via the umbilical vein.
In this context the foetus does its own emotional homework and responds, either passively accepting the mother's bad feelings as its own, as if true for itself, or by being protestingly overwhelmed by them. It can aggressively fight them back, in resolute opposition to sharing the mother's sickness. Others become 'fetal therapists' trying to bolster up a debilitated and debilitating mother from their own feelings of relative strength. Sensitivity to 'poisonous' feelings coming from a rejecting mother is very great . . .To be the focus of mother's love imprints a confidence that 'sets us up' for life."
-- Frank Lake, M.D., in Report from the Research Department
"She may have been full of anger internally, while fear, compliance or compassion prevented its ever being shown externally. She may have loved the man by whom she became pregnant, while hating the resultant fetus, or loved the prospect of having a baby, while hating, fearing or feeling deeply disappointed and neglected by its father. The fetus receives all such messages but has difficulty in distinguishing what relates specifically to it and what belongs to the mother's feelings about her own life in general."
-- Frank Lake, M.D. in Tight Corners in Pastoral Counseling
"I believe first of all that which all my patients assert, that the embryo already feels plainly whether its mother loves it or not, whether she gives it much love, little love, or none at all, in many instances in fact in place of love sheer hate."
-- J. Sadger in Preliminary Study of the Psychic Life of the Fetus and the Primary Germ
"A baby born today has a roughly 50-50 chance of keeping his father. This is the first generation of American kids who must face not the sad loss of fathers to death, but the far more brutal knowledge that, to their fathers, many other things are more important than they are."
-- Maggie Gallagher in The Abolition of Marriage
"As we have seen, those who underwent persecutory experiences in the first year have many ways of defending against the emergence into adult consciousness of their infantile 'descent' into hell. These defences may break down in adolescence or middle life, but most commonly they take from forty to sixty years before they break down. When they do become de-repressed and emerge into consciousness, we encounter the persecuted infant exactly in the state of terror in which it was `put down'. And we see, in retrospect, that the paranoid or otherwise distorted personality pattern which has made this man or woman so difficult to live with over the years has all along been a defensive position based on unforgettable, unrecallable, 'memories' of this infantile descent into hell."
--Frank Lake, M.D., Clinical Theology
"Complications in the intimate emotional reaction with one's mother or father can cause recurrent problems with sexual partners."
-- Stanislav Grof, M.D. in The Adventure of Self-Discovery
"Intimacy is showing another person the parts of ourselves that we believe to be unworthy and thereby risking that they will turn from us the way our parents did. . . Intimacy brings with it tenderness and humor, companionship and affection, but it also demands that we relive the most agonizing moments of being a child."
-- Geneen Roth in When Food Is Love
"It is not merely a question of inner conflict or of 'growing up.' 'Stop fussing over what your parents did to you!' as skeptics command patients in therapy. The scar consists of changed anatomy and chemistry within the brain."
Dr. Peter D. Kramer in Listening To Prozac
"A parent may feel rejective toward a child, consciously or unconsciously, constantly or intermittently, but seek to suppress this feeling by not permitting it to come through in actions. But there is a belief that the child senses the true feeling."
-- Frank R. Donovan in Raising Your Child
"If a child does not receive adequate attention and richness of social experience in early life, the results are apt to be irreversible. No amount of subsequent training can fully compensate for the error. Nature relies heavily on the behavior of the mother toward the newborn in its first years of life. . . The measure of love the child receives, the types of training and education and the time when they take place, will determine the characteristics of the future man."
-- George Crile, Jr. M.D. in The Naturalistic View of Man
"The first notion of identity in the infant, what is most his own, comes from the outside. . . through the mother's gaze, the infant (receives) precise instructions as to "who he is" and "how he must be" in order to be loved and recognized. . . "
-- Raquel Zak
"So many of the patients have experienced a neglect of their most basic, deepest human needs -- for touching and for companionship, for sharing inner feelings, for expressing creative energy, for sexual fulfillment, for personal validation, and for the giving and receiving of love. Instead their lives were characterized by duty and obligation to the very people who gave them little or nothing in return."
-- Dennis Jaffe -- Quoted in The Type C Connection: The Behavioral Links to Cancer and Your Health by Dr. Lydia Temoshok and Henry Dreher
"In the self-help literature directed at parents virtually no attention is paid to the emotional upheavals that the parent is likely to face -- the disturbing return of long banished feelings, the sense of being driven to behave in ways that one would rather not think about, the haunting sensation of being inhabited by the ghost of one's own mother or father as one tries to relate to one's child."
-- Robert Karen, Ph.D.
"The most important thing a father can do for his children is to love their mother." -- Anonymous
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With God 's Help and Kiki and Honour and Mermaid et al, Maybe that explains why it's a teenage mentality and the R with Ho Bag is shallow and insignificant.
I mean if you're under anestesia and wake up you're groggy and not right for a while afterwards. Maybe they are in a world where they realy DON"T give a s**t about OW either way. Just themselves. That is so interesting about the somatic marker systems.I kept wondering why the robot voice and mannerisms at BD. Totally enraged yet detached. Now calmed down after 7 mos. slipping to rock bottom. Sitting at OWs while she works and he's looking for a job. Good Luck. Value system went out the window at BD also. Still notices if D doesn't say 'please' and 'thank you' but he's out having an affair with half our good furniture. LOL Remember NB they don't want to be alone!!!! That's why Mr Screwed Up Somatic Marker System needs stupid selfish needy OW. BC he doesn't care who it is. He's not alone and it's not us. Right now :) Honestly, she can have him right now :o :o
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Yup Mamma - they're the BOOBY PRIZE right now!! No good to us :D
'Mr Screwed up Somatic Marker system' ;D
WGH - thanks for sharing - that was interesting
NB and WGH - T is right. They don't feel true emotions. in a nutshell. They've done a 180. Become their complete opposite. (HB explains this well somewhere)
Usually opposites attract. Us and them - opposites. (in personality I guess, but not morals, values etc ???)
Now that they're in crisis and everything is opposite for them - they are now attracted to sameness. DYSFUNCTIONAL, EMOTIONALLY INEPT WEIRDOS!!
The EA isn't deep and meaningful. It's shallow, needy, selfish and 'tweenagey'
Unfortunately our 13 yr old can confirm this. He sadly discovered his Dad's secret other life by finding 'teenager' style txts on his Dad's ph to OW.
Possibly because it helps them face some childhood issue they need to heal.
In their eyes, we became their MOTHER.
They are incapable of having a relationship with anyone. Their relationship with themselves, us, children, OW/OM is shallow and lonely no matter how good the rush (The Lighthouse - love that!).
They are dead emotionally, so mistakenly think the hormones racing with OW are long lasting SOULMATE LOVE!! (At least for a while).
They won't admit it, but know they no longer can keep up with us. They become bottom feeders, and relocate with POND SCUM. As someone said somewhere (may have been stayed?), with these people they get to feel TRULY SPECTACULAR!! Get the picture?
My H has said. OW and I are both really selfish.
OW and I get on so well because we both had terrible childhoods.
I had to leave because the expectations from you and the boys were too high
I can no longer live by your morals and your children's morals (huh, they are your kids too, and they used to be your morals for a long time??)
I wasn't capable of having a relationship with you anymore, so I had to leave. In fact, I'm not capable of having a relationship with anyone.
(The mind boggles - what is it that he thinks he's having then?? What does she think she is having with him?)
In the early days - OW keeps me calm
OW makes me feel safe (usually said as he ran away from me like a cornered rat)
It's not a deep and meaningful R (as Affaircare said somewhere 'no $hit Sherlock!')
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My Ds said "OW doesn't talk. Just Daddy." LOL She must be like "Cute guy in my apt. I'm 47 years old I'm not gonna screw this up" :o :o " I am a Bowser."
H told his Mother "I like it over at the new apt. It's quiet." :o :o
Ok so now Mr. Rock N' Roll wants quiet. Should've married Helen Keller if you wanted quiet. :o :o :o Have a vicodin and a rolaids and call me in the morning. 8)
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Seriously Mamma you and Lg should write a comedy show/book especially for LBSers............................how to keep yourself sane through your spouses midlife crisis........ you both crack me up its 01.35am and im laughing my head off my kids will think ive gone cuckoo like h lol..........ohhhhhhhh listen i think i can hear the nut bus with its square wheels rambling down our street ready with the straight jacket to carry me off :o :o :o :o :o
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With God's help!! You should've seen me and LG poolside in Wildwood. No one could get a word in edge wise. We almost chased down a cute guy walking by for a FB photo... :o I don't even have a FB. :o
I find it's the only way to live life. Find the humor in all situations. Years ago I had a DWI Had to go to probation. I asked if they had a soccer Mom section bc the skells sitting next to me were ax murderers. So much stuff I have endured in this lifetime. This is just one more hurdle.I KNOW when Sabotage Sam wakes up he is gonna be soooooo Mad at HIMSELF! Glad I could make you smile. Hope I didn't wake the kids. All the way from NY. :o :o
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My H hasn't got a clue. Says that this is how it's always been just that he was too blind to see it ??? . If you try to tell him he's in MLC he just argues you. His own BF of 23 years told him it was MLC. Again, he told him he was a fool that he wasn't in MLC he just didn't want to be married and wanted to have HIS life. Yet....he moved home to be with us as a family and remain (no shocker here) married. So yeah, no clue in his little world.