Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Lovebystanding on August 23, 2013, 05:30:00 AM
-
Catch Me If You Can...
Avoiding Narcissists
By Amanda Somberg
You've seen them. They're everywhere: in the office, the classroom, down the street. They're charming, self-assured, the perfect catch. They know just how to talk to and seduce you, and when they ask for your number, you pinch yourself with glee at your good fortune.
They seem like the perfect boyfriend, and in the beginning, they are attentive, thoughtful, generous, and kind. You become enamored and are swept off your feet. Although you may hear murmurings from friends or family that he seems "too nice" or that they just "have a hunch about him," you brush aside their comments. You only have eyes for him, and in those eyes, he's "the one."
The relationship moves quickly, and he makes you feel chosen and special, as if the secrets he shares are only between you two. He seeks your sympathy, telling you woes about his hard life and the many people who have taken advantage of or hurt him. He might even speak disparagingly about his "crazy" ex-girlfriend or ex-wife, and you swallow the one-sided character assassination without question.
But for all of his perfect manners and perfect smile and perfectly attentive demeanor, this perfect catch hides a tremendous secret: Beneath his polished and smiling façade is a predator, the proverbial wolf in sheep's clothing. He will turn on you only after you are "caught," either legally in a marriage or when he senses your heart has been surrendered. He will disguise his true nature until it's too late, and by then, you will have given up your dreams, your savings, your youth, and your heart to this man. You will have believed the flattery and promises of endless love until you are older, wiser, and emotionally or physically crushed by his controlling and abusive ways.
The secret he hides from everyone is his cruelty and coldness, which eventually transforms from subtle to overt psychological, verbal, and physical abuse. At home, he erupts with rage whenever you make the slightest suggestion or request, and he blames you or the children for all of his failures and problems. He's no longer kind but arrogant, and he's never, ever wrong. Our narcissist has no empathy or time for you or the children anymore, preferring instead to live a moody life of self-imposed exile succumbing to addictions such as work, alcohol, drugs, or affairs.
Once so seductive and attentive when you were dating, his demeanor becomes aloof and uncaring after you're trapped. Sex becomes a one-sided affair – if it was ever mutually satisfying to begin with. Other times, he becomes uninterested in sex for any reason, leaving you feeling frustrated and unwanted. As time progresses, he may even get you to participate in sexual acts that you feel ashamed or embarrassed about.
Eventually, the good times stop altogether, though he might tease you with an occasional "splurge" somewhere, or a genuine kindness. These arbitrary glimpses of the man you fell in love with will only serve to tighten the handcuffs which bind you to him. Much like the psychology of slot machines, these small, occasional payoffs will keep the unsuspecting gambler glued to her chair.
Eventually, you cannot deny the lies, which are second nature to this man, the wolf. He lied all along, but you didn't want to know it or couldn't see it before now. He plays mind games with you and your children, denying he's doing so. It's subtle at first but amazingly effective. You, destabilized and questioning your own sanity, are slowly being driven mad.
The abuse continues. It always does if you stay. He starts berating you for your cooking, your mothering skills, your appearance. Hitting, slapping, and punching are not far behind. By now, you see a pattern: to the world, they see his mask, but you must live with the man. With a sneer, he'll say "No one will ever believe a word you say."
You 're faced with an imposter who has hidden the money, isolated you from family and friends, and driven a wedge between you and your children. His explanations are rehearsed and twisted, painting you as the instigator, the psycho, the money-grubbing b!tc#. He is a formidable verbal foe with his credible and plausible explanations of every interaction you've ever had, and you find yourself on the losing end of every session with the couple's therapist or with well-meaning family members.
His attorney is just like him: smooth, slick... a crusader for his client. But the wolf doesn't care about you or your children, although he portrays himself as the long-suffering husband who throws up his hands and exclaims to others "Look at what I have to deal with."
The wolf only cares about one thing in his relationship with you, and it is winning. He will do everything in his power to destroy you in the process.j
When you turn to the court system for relief, there will be no help forthcoming. A judge will never believe you, the true victim of the wolf's controlling abuse. The wolf is polished, calm, unruffled. A pillar in the community. Although he's lying through his teeth, it's second nature to him, as he's been practicing it for years. You are either fragmented and depressed from the psychological and emotional abuse or enraged that this man is harming you and your children. Either way, you come across as exactly the crazed, paranoid harpy he has created.
The wolf gets away with all of this because his charisma, magnetism, and deceit sways judges, therapists, custody evaluators, and mediators. Emboldened by his success, he bullies and abuses you even more. And he'll never stop until you have paid dearly – so dearly – for leaving and rejecting him.
* * * * * * * * *
It is tempting for lay people to think that this man is a figment of my imagination, but I assure you he's very real. Malignant narcissists and sociopaths prey upon the kindest and most tender women they can find, for they know these women will never suspect how evil and devious people can be. Women who fall for these men are good-hearted, slightly dependent and suggestible, and patently unable to see the sociopath until it's too late. They're willing to be groomed over time to accept responsibility for every problem that goes awry in the relationship, from the wolf being late to the wall being pummeled.
He always paints himself as the victim of evil-doers, crazy exes, maligned employees. Beware if you hear "the pity play" in your interactions or on dates. Nothing is ever their fault or responsibility and you will soon find yourself on the receiving end of his "blame game."
Another clue is his lying. It is inconceivable to the average person how easily sociopaths lie, but they are true con men and can lie with impunity.
The third clue is the abuse. You know you're dealing with a malignant narcissist – a true sociopath with no conscience – when these behaviors start. He not only lies regularly, but begins to "gaslight" you, a form of psychological abuse named after the 1944 movie Gaslight (rent it!). This type of abuse essentially destabilizes you and causes you to question your own sanity. He may say "I never said that" or "That's not what we agreed to," yet you remember otherwise. Wolves utilize this technique liberally, and let there be no doubt about it: he is consciously, actively, and sadistically tormenting you to drive you insane.
A fourth clue is the inevitable overt abuse: slapping, shoving, hitting...or worse. The cycle of violence so aptly explained by Lenore Walker – outburst, honeymoon phase, increasing tension, followed by another outburst – demonstrates that the abuse will only get worse, never better. Those who take full and utter responsibility for each and every one of their actions – which is highly, highly unlikely – must prove their mettle over time.
Start seeing a therapist or mental health professional. You will need support to help you cope with the daunting task of managing your emotions.
If he seems too good to be true, he probably is, so stay on your guard, be smart, and don't get duped.
-
Important to note that true NPD narcs are rare, but there are a LOT of people "on the spectrum." And I truly believe MLC is a narcissistic temper tantrum, whether they were before, they are in MLC, so reading about NPD can help you understand the place your MLCer inhabits, and how to deal with it. Love and light, ll
-
This was a good configuration for most Narcissist but has anyone heard of the Altruistic Narcissist? This type of narcissist goes out of his way to make his spouse and everyone else dependent of him and he can no longer have his Narcissist supply he dumps you like a hot potatoes and finds another person to exploit.
All his true colors come out. Things you had suspected at times but couldn't believe that this loving honorable man would be capable of. He would rub my feet in the middle of the night and practically become my wet nurse. He enabled me to become so dependent on him that I didn't even know how to change a channel on the TV. HE DID EVERYTHING FOR ME!!! It's nice to get the attention but his attention began with smothering me than turned into nursing me and than into sheer hatred.
He abandoned me for OW without remorse or empathy. I'm from US. I had followed him to the West Coast where we only had superficial friends that surrounded us. When he left I found myself alone without a career, without a home and without emotional support. I believe his mother is a narcissist that never grew up and is now a hoarder. But she suddenly felt better when she realized he was leaving me. Never a word about it to me either. I had been with this man for 16 years and married for 12 and never got invited once at his mom's home. We have no children together, Thank God. He caused me unrepairable damage that I'm really struggling with. He was my life, my world but I felt that he gave me a lot except the love he so professed he had for me. He lied lied lied about everything to me and everyone else. I thought he was the most honest and upright human being I had ever know. To good to be true...absolutely. The unusual Narcissist>The Altruistic Narcissist...it's worth looking up God bless Sw
-
Eventually, you cannot deny the lies, which are second nature to this man, the wolf. He lied all along, but you didn't want to know it or couldn't see it before now. He plays mind games with you and your children, denying he's doing so. It's subtle at first but amazingly effective. You, destabilized and questioning your own sanity, are slowly being driven mad.
This hit home and a lot of other things in this post.
The abuse continues. It always does if you stay. He starts berating you for your cooking, your mothering skills, your appearance. Hitting, slapping, and punching are not far behind. By now, you see a pattern: to the world, they see his mask, but you must live with the man. With a sneer, he'll say "No one will ever believe a word you say."
Yep- because I'm the one who's crazy..not him. That's why HE THINKS no one will believe me.
You 're faced with an imposter who has hidden the money, isolated you from family and friends, and driven a wedge between you and your children. His explanations are rehearsed and twisted, painting you as the instigator, the psycho, the money-grubbing b*tch
This is quite accurate..it's possible I may have elevated myself to a money grubbing b!tch. But without being able to PROVE anything only having his WORD which is worth diddly I probably won't quite reach those heights.
I' ll just remain a psycho he's convinced the children that they need to stay away from.
Anyway I've accepted the fact that this is what I dealt with. A ..I don't know WHAT HE IS! Sorry I ever married him to begin with.
The good news is you can heal from this if you start with no contact. You have to severe all ties and go on with your life. He's beat me up for 30 years I'm not spending the next twenty beating myself up for it.
I'm just sorry my daughters are trying to live with it. They do not know what REAL freedom is.
-
Awesome article! Scary how much of it rings true. I think you're right in saying MLC is like a narcissistic temper tantrum. Though as we say, knowledge is power so this makes what can seem so crazy make more sense. Thanks for sharing
-
And when it makes sense I found it easier to put the focus on me!
And what about them? -not so much. ;)
-
From the blog/website I get the newsletter from:
“Like everyone else it is difficult to pin it down to one thing, but in a nutshell it is the sudden realization that you have been totally and utterly conned on every level and you have suddenly found yourself in the middle of a nuclear winter. The word betrayal does not even seem to cut it as it implies one event, not the myriad events of trashing everything one has believed in. Realizing that he did not love was not as mind blowing as realizing he could not care less and actually enjoyed the destruction.” - See more at: http://blog.melanietoniaevans.com/how-i-let-go-of-the-biggest-things-that-hurt/#sthash.imWCc3yC.dpuf
-
Dear All,
I don't post as I am 65, no children, H66, married 30 years. BD Feb 2012 and left Sept 2012. When I read all of
your stories I feel sad, so sad and don't feel as if I have huge problems.
Reading this article about Narcissists yesterday was like a flash of lightning hitting me. My h left at the end of my
breast cancer treatment (op, chemo and radio). I couldn't understand why there was very little empathy and thought
it was because "Mummy" wasn't available.
Yesterday, everything fell into place like the last piece of a jigsaw puzzle. The years of abuse, the coldness the distance
both mental and physical and the sneering and total arrogance when I suggested once or twice there could have been
someone else. He finally left for a girl the age of his daughter, bought the sports car (blue not red) and hangs out
with a new bunch of young friends who "admire" him. I have been left in France and he is back in UK.
Thank you for giving me this link to finally detach completely and regain my inner peace. I am shocked by the
realisation but relieved that I wasn't to blame and have to leave him in his own fragile la-la land.
I think of all you ladies often and send you love and hugs from down here in France.
-
If MLCers were brought up in a narcissistic family cud their symptoms of depression as adults play a part in MLC ......according to the author of the following article "It is common for adult children of narcissists to enter treatment with emotional symptomen or relationship issues".
This cud explain why some MLCers like mine ,always want to look like the nice Guy....seeking approval from others which they never got ....as well as their passive agressive behaviour.
The article below is an eye opener.
The Narcissistic Family Portrait
It can stink and look pretty at the same time.
by Karyl McBride
Clinical experience and research show that adult children of narcissists have a difficult time putting their finger on what is wrong. Denial is rampant in the narcissistic family system. "The typical adult from a narcissistic family is filled with unacknowledged anger, feels like a hollow person, feels inadequate and defective, suffers from periodic anxiety and depression, and has no clue about how he or she got that way." It is common for adult children of narcissists to enter treatment with emotional symptoms or relationship issues, but simultaneously display a lack of awareness of the deeper etiology or cause. The narcissistic family hides profound pain.
In a nutshell, the narcissistic family operates according to an unspoken set of rules. Children learn to live with those rules, but they never stop being confused and pained by them, for these rules block children's emotional access to their parents. They are basically invisible - not heard, seen or nurtured. Tragically, conversely, this set of rules allows the parents to have no boundaries with the children and to use and abuse them as they see fit. Sounds awful, doesn't it?
Let's browse some common dynamics from this profoundly dysfunctional intergenerational system. Keep in mind there are degrees of dysfunction on a spectrum depending on the level of narcissism in the parents.
Secrets:
The family secret is that the parents are not meeting the children's emotional needs or they are abusive in some way. This is the norm in the narcissistic family. The message to the children: "Don't tell the outside world...pretend everything is fine."
Image:
The narcissistic family is all about image. The message is: we are bigger, better, have no problems, and we must put on the face of perfection. Children get the messages: "What would the neighbors think?" "What would the relatives think?" What would our friends think?" These are common fears in the family. "Always put a smile on that pretty little face."
Negative Messages:
Children are given spoken and unspoken messages that get internalized. Those messages typically are: "You're not good enough." "You don't measure up." "You are valued for what you do rather than for who youare."
Lack of Parental Hierarchy:
In healthy families there is a strong parental hierarchy where the parents are in charge and shining love, light, guidance, and direction down to the children. In narcissistic families the hierarchy is non-existent. The children are there to serve parental needs.
Lack of Emotional Tune-In:
Narcissistic parents lack the ability to emotionally tune in to their kids. They cannot feel and show empathy or unconditional love. They are typically critical and judgmental.
Lack of Effective Communication:
The most common type of communication in narcissistic families is through triangulation. This is where information is told through one party about another in hopes it will get back to the other party. Information is not direct. Family members talk about each other to other members of the family, but don't confront the individuals directly. Alas, causing the creation of passive-aggressive behavior, tension, and mistrust among family members. When communication is direct, it is often in the form of anger or rage.
Unclear Boundaries:
There are few boundaries in the narcissistic family. Children's feelings are not considered important. Diaries are read, physical boundaries not kept, and emotional boundaries not respected. The right to privacy is not typically a part of the family history.
One Parent Narcissistic, The Other Orbits:
If one parent is narcissistic, it is common for the other parent to have to revolve around the narcissist to keep the marriage intact. Many times the other parent has redeeming qualities to give to the children, but is tied up meeting the needs of the narcissistic spouse. This often leaves the children's needs unmet. Who is there for them?
Siblings Are Not Encouraged To Be Close:
In healthy families, we encourage our children to be loving and close to each other. In narcissistic families, children are pitted against each other and taught competition. There is a constant comparison of who is doing better and who is not. Some children are favored or seen as the golden child and others become the scape-goat for the parents projected negative feelings. Siblings in narcissistic families rarely grow up feeling emotionally connected to each other.
Feelings:
Feelings are denied and not discussed. Children are not taught to embrace their emotions and process them in realistic ways. They are taught to stuff, repress, and are told their feelings don't matter. Narcissistic parents are typically not in touch with their own feelings and therefore project them onto others. This causes a lack of accountability and honesty...not to mention other psychological disorders. If we don't process feelings, they do leak out in other unhealthy ways.
Not Good Enough Messages:
These messages come across loud and clear in the narcissistic family. Some parents actually speak this message in various ways and others just model it to the children. Even with arrogant and boastful behavior, under the veneer of a narcissist is a self-loathing psyche that gets passed to the child.
The Dysfunction Can Be Obvious or Covert:
In narcissist families, the dynamics can be seen or disguised. The dysfunction displayed in violent and abusive homes is usually obvious. Emotional and psychological abuse, as well as neglectful parenting, is often hidden. Where the drama is not displayed as openly to the outside world, it is just as or more damaging to the children.
In reviewing the above dynamics one can see how this kind of family can stink and look pretty at the same time. If you recognize your family here, please know there is hope and recovery. Although we can't change the past, we can take control of the now. We do not have to be defined by the wounded in our family systems. As Mark Twain defines the optimist, I also see the recovering adult child: "A person who travels on nothing from nowhere to happiness." We can create new life that will flow through us to the future and stop the legacy of distorted love learned in the narcissistic family. If we choose recovery, we can defy intergenerational statistics
-
Wow! This describes my H's family to a "T". I was reading it shocked to the core! I've seen this with my own eyes in the last 15 years of interaction between the family members! Wow! It sure explains a LOT!
-
Lovebystanding, thank you of awesome post ! It is mind blowing. My mother in love have huge narcissistic tendencies, how deep, I do not know. Father in love is orbiter. Anyway, I recognize all consequences on psyche of my wife. Like co-dependence, low self esteem, perfectionism, passive aggressive, no expressing emotions.
-
Your welcome Albatross! Your Posts are awesome too!
In spite of having all the knowledge from this amazing site and the wonderful people on this forum,
we are just not able to help our MLcers and that is frustrating. They are oblivious to our love and stand. All they care about is themselves and the OP.
Keep posting ...love ur insight
LBS
-
Exactly... All they care about is themselves..NO EMPATHY...the former mlcer parents were exactly like this. And now this @$$hole has my girls and is convincing them I'm crazy..it's him and his unplugged mother that are nuts.
DENIAL plays a huge role in all of this. They deny deny deny they have the problem.
HUMILATION is a huge punishment for a narcissist. You have to figure out what scares them and MOST OF THE TIME it's being ALONE.
They have no FEED that way..no audience. NO CONTROL over anything. They identify with their victims. Their sense of self comes from those around them.
They need to be EXPOSED. There is NOTHING they will not do to keep the "mask" in place and switch when the mood suits them.
THEY FEAR THE TRUTH.
-
WOW!! I just googled "how to piss of a narcissist" and I got the website www.narcissistatwork.com
But this part really rang true for me:
Q: What is “narcissistic supply”?
A: Narcissists are addicted to attention, even negative attention like humiliation and abuse; although they prefer adoration and worship of course.
When you become a person who supplies them with that adoration, approval, attention or even abuse, you become someone to whom they FEED off of—yes, like a blood-sucking vampire. They will SUCK YOU DRY if you let them.
Becoming the source of a narcissist’s attention supply is like becoming a walking, talking source of “human heroin and cocaine” and then trying to set up shop in a crack-house around 20 addicts going through withdrawal. Yeah. Hell on earth.
Q: Can a narcissist be “cured” or fixed?
A: NO. If you want to try, we suggest you go out and contract the ebola, AIDS and leprosy virsus’ “for the practice,” before tackling changing a narcissist.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
-
Well that's a relief to know there's nothing we can do anyway, except get out of the way,
Just saying on my thread how I read some things on narcissism recently and fits H totally. His dad left ::) his mom with two young boys, she remarries and never says a positive thing about their dad, ever. Step dad an alcoholic. Mom and stepdad have daughter, she is apple of their eye, while the boys are the children of the guy who left, so not looked at so lovingly as she hated the guy who left because "he was a womanizer and a drunk" hmmmm....... (not H, his birth dad, okay, yes H too).
Those brothers where made to do lots of chores, lived poorly, cold homes, not much money, mom was a scrounger always on the take, step dad always drunk, and step sister the princess. Mom had medical issues and always seeking attention as a child and feeling left out and different to her siblings, always needing surgery, etc.
This all adds up. H and his brother possibly grew up only being praised for what they did, and not who they were. They were also made to sing etc in public which they hated. Fast forward 30+ years. H turns into workaholic, getting praise for being good at his job, and it becomes who he is. He gets his "fix" from helping and being good at what he does. Only able to really talk about work, not much else, very socially awkward, unless with peers. Never took any blame, always someone else's fault, never his. Would work for a company, part ways, and always their fault.
I wouldn't be surprised if he no longer works in that field, although what else could he do. Then again, it isn't H anymore, it is the newer, younger, awful version, and one I'm glad I don't get to see often. He is a mess.
-
Missed what I was trying to say in that as an adult, being a workaholic once again got him praise for "what he did" as opposed to getting praise outside of the home "for who he is/was"
-
EXACTLY! It they try to get it from the OUTSIDE it comes from WITHIN!!!
-
great articles and insight from all of you. family dynamic, what i know of it because there are definite strains of narcissism in h's family so secrets abound, fits h to a t--always in competition w/his sister, she was the badass, he became the pleaser, father was a womanizing narcissist, mother was/is a "shove it under the rug/if i can't see it or don't acknowledge it, it doesn't exist...sheesh, what a firetrucked up way to go through live/lives.
yes, yes. i will not be sucked down into the whirlpool of narcissistic ridiculousness, and i'll try to keep my daughters out of the whirlpool as well!
onlyjo
-
Thanks in it,snowdrop and onlyjo for ur comments.
Info on Gaslighting which most of us have experienced at Bomb Drop.
Gaslighting... A narcissistic trick
When your spouse Is TRYING to make you feel exhausted and confused to gain control
and power.
The emotional damage of Gaslighting is huge on the narcissistic victim. When they are exposed to it for long enough, they begin to lose their sense of their own self. Unable to trust their own judgments, they start to question the reality of everything in their life. They begin to find themselves second-guessing themselves, and this makes them become very insecure around their decision making, even around the smallest of choices. The victim becomes depressed and withdrawn, they become totally dependent on the abuser for their sense of reality. In effect the gaslighting turns the victim’s reality on its head.
Definition:
Ambient Abuse (also called Gaslighting)
"Gaslighting is a form of psychological abuse in which false or distorted information is presented with the intent of making a victim doubt his or her own memory, perception, or sanity - having the gradual effect of making them anxious, confused, and less able to trust their own thoughts."
How do you know if you are being gaslighted? If any of the following warning signs ring true, you may be dancing the Gaslight Tango. Take care of yourself by taking another look at your relationship, talking to a trusted friend; and, begin to think about changing the dynamic of your relationship . Here are the signs:
1. You are constantly second-guessing yourself
2. You ask yourself, "Am I too sensitive?" a dozen times a day.
3. You often feel confused and even crazy at work.
4. You're always apologizing to your mother, father, boyfriend,, boss.
5. You can't understand why, with so many apparently good things in your life, you aren't happier.
6. You frequently make excuses for your partner's behavior to friends and family.
7. You find yourself withholding information from friends and family so you don't have to explain or make excuses.
8. You know something is terribly wrong, but you can never quite express what it is, even to yourself.
9. You start lying to avoid the put downs and reality twists.
10. You have trouble making simple decisions.
11. You have the sense that you used to be a very different person - more confident, more fun-loving, more relaxed.
12. You feel hopeless and joyless.
13. You feel as though you can't do anything right.
14. You wonder if you are a "good enough" girlfriend/ wife/employee/ friend; daughter.
15. You find yourself withholding information from friends and family so you don't have to explain or make excuses.
Remember, there is good news about identifying the Gaslight Effect. The good news is that knowledge is power. Once you can name this all too insidious dynamic, you can work towards changing the dynamic, or getting out -- take back your reality, and, get more enjoyment from your life and your relationship!
-
Those in midlife crisis display narcissistic tendencies,but to what degree....
primary (normal) type or secondary (pathological) narcissism or maybe somewhere in between.
Is There Such a Thing as Acceptable Narcissism?
primary (normal) and secondary (pathological) narcissism.
Primary narcissism is the normal desire to protect ourselves from danger and to preserve our own lives; it has a sexual component that doesn't preclude desire for others. People who suffer from secondary narcissism, on the other hand, "display two fundamental characteristics: megalomania and diversion of their interest from the external world -- from people and things"
When most people use the word today to describe someone else, they usually mean he or she has megalomaniacal tendencies: "feelings of personal omnipotence or grandeur". Our use of the word may imply personal vanity, which suggests a sexual desire for one's own body, but it's not the primary meaning for most of us. In general, what is written today about narcissism concerns the secondary type, focusing on a grandiose self-image and an excessive need for admiration to sustain it
To a certain extent, the desire to be noticed, admired and respected by others is a type of narcissism, an everyday narcissism that doesn't interfere with our ability to notice, admire and respect other people or to have meaningful relationships with them. Only when that desire eclipses everything else do we enter the territory of pathological narcissism and narcissistic personality disorder.
Healthy Narcissism as a Psychodynamic Process
“In a broad sense, narcissism refers to feelings and attitudes toward one’s own self and to normal development and self-regulation. It is the core of normal healthy self-esteem, affects, and relationships. In psychoanalytic terms, normal narcissism is defined as a positive investment in a normally functioning self-structure.”
Healthy narcissism is the foundation to stable self-esteem that is not subject to extreme fluctuations. Failures, mistakes, stress, or even successes threaten 'fragile' self-esteem, deflating or inflating one's self-perceptions to an unhealthy degree. Connecting to an inner core of the True Self is essential for establishing healthy narcissism. In other words, connection with the True feeling Self sustains our worth in times of crisis, severe stress, and increases our capacity to grieve significant losses.
Though psychological theories might differ on the etiology of pathological narcissism, psychologists agree that healthy narcissism evolves from a secure attachment to parental figures in childhood. Adoring parents who, if they are doing their job well, slowly frustrate a child's self-centeredness. This sets limits on their selfish behavior and grandiosity. When parents consistently mirror our ‘specialness’, we believe we are lovable, valuable, and worthy. Our self-esteem will be less susceptible to extreme fluctuations in reaction to criticism or failure. Healthy narcissism increases tolerance for shame, guilt, and remorse—fundamental to social integration. Our narcissism is held in check by:
1-our capacity to empathize and introspect
2-the value we place on community
3-our ability to commit to others
These abilities restrain unhealthy narcissism thus deepening bonds to others and to the self. Using this understanding of ‘healthy narcissism’ as a developmental process, we can say that someone with a Narcissistic Personality may be unhealthy, but not necessarily pathological; i.e.: resistant to treatment, change, or cure. What we define as a Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
A Narcissistic Personality Disorder
Clinical Narcissism
In a clinical description, a person either IS a narcissist, or is NOT a narcissist. Qualified oprofessionals make this determination based on observation of at least five qualifying criteria out of nine listed in the DSM-IV. These nine criteria are subject to change as research clarifies criteria for pathological narcissism. A person with a suspected NPD will likely have:
1-impaired personal relationships
2-long-term patterns of narcissistic behaviors
3-ego defenses becoming increasingly rigid overtime
4-work failures (inability to accept limitations; difficulties with coworkers and bosses)
5-depression and/or suicidal episodes; addictive behaviors
6-extreme reactions to criticism and failure
Anyone diagnosed with a narcissistic personality disorder manifests unhealthy narcissism. The narcissistic personality disorder is a clinical diagnosis much like a medical diagnosis. In other words, you either have a broken leg or you don’t. To clinical psychologists, a person has a Narcissistic Personality Disorder or they don’t. If they have a NPD however, the narcissistic traits are pathological because their narcissism is unhealthy. To suggest that someone with a narcissistic personality disorder exhibits ‘healthy narcissism’ is a fallacy.Unfortunately, narcissist's character traits are viewed as valuable in a competitive and self-admiring society. This makes it even more difficult to ascertain the degree of someone's narcissism.
-
http://www.angriesout.com/grown17.htm
-
http://blog.melanietoniaevans.com/how-to-empower-your-children/
-
Lovebystanding, thanks for these interesting articles on narcissism.
What leaps out to me is how similar the profile is to OWs family. I knew OWs mother well, and she was beginning to open up to me, but it was easy to see that she was a very fragile person behind the pretense that she presented to the outside world. Both her daughters have issues. The eldest, (ex) OW, was the golden girl, the perfect student (but her teachers regarded her as sly, manipulative). But she is a perfectionist too, all part of her need to maintain the prefect facade. She would get so anxious before her exams in case she got less than 100%. Her sister was the scape goat, and not surprisingly was bad at school, misbehaved, but eventually emulated her sister's drive for success, although at the same time became anorexic, had obsessive compulsive disorder, and stopped speaking to her mother (creating her own space). Her mother was frantic at not having her own needs met through her daughter.
So if OW is narcissistic and a perfectionist, what does this say about my H? He saw her as fragile, needing to be protected, and that she trusted few people, yet he was one. She was a reflection of himself in some ways, also perfectionist, and with ML narcissism. His family is not narcissistic, though. His mother closed off her feelings while she got on with the business of surviving, and valued H's success more than emotions. But not narcissistic.
-
Mermaid glad the articles help u to understand more.
To understand my H's behaviour I have to keep reading.It took awhile ...after all the projection...for me to realise it was him and not me . But the OP also has a significant role wrt disorders and manipulative ways.The OW in my case is a real affair down.
Is there hope for the narcissist MLCers and the people who love them?
The narcissist need the right audience in order to feel like a star, so they often cultivate relationships with people who stick around for the show, instead of the person. Over time, as their perfect façade starts to slip, their constant fear that people will find them lacking becomes a horrifying reality. The very people who stuck around for the show lose interest when it ends—which merely convinces the narcissist they need to hide their flaws and put on a better show.
Alternatively, even when they fall for someone who could be more than just an adoring fan—someone who offers the hope of a more authentic, enduring love—narcissists still live with the paralyzing fear they’ll somehow be deemed unworthy. Their terror is frequently out of awareness, and nearly always managed with bravado and blame, but it’s profound and palpable. Sadly, their anger at having their mistakes and missteps exposed ultimately alienates their loved ones, and the demise of yet another relationship prompts them to redouble their efforts to avoid vulnerability—in short, it pushes them towards more narcissism. The sad irony of the narcissistic condition is that, in an effort to protect themselves, narcissists inevitably invite the very rejection and abandonment they fear in the first place.
The key, then, to interacting with someone you suspect is narcissistic is to break the vicious circle—to gently thwart their frantic efforts to control, distance, defend or blame in the relationship by sending the message that you’re more than willing to connect with them, but not on these terms; to invite them into a version of intimacy where they can be loved and admired, warts and all—if they only allow the experience to happen.
-
LBS - thank you for your explanation. Very interesting. I do believe my H has always had narcissistic ways, and yet I didn't see it as that when we were together, although now it seems so obvious.
So what happened when we met then? I feel our love was genuine, but for sure, I called him on every time he seemed fake, or when he seemed to act a different way in public. He said I did the same, and if only others saw me for who I really was ::) I admit that yes, I am different in some ways at home, aren't we all, but overall think I'm pretty transparent and don't hide.
It WAS like he was on a stage. He would do things like suddenly ask company what they thought of what I just said if he felt it was against him ::), or one time I'd said something about the groceries he bought home as not being what he'd gone for, and he proceeded to tell a neighbour who was walking by, what SD said about the groceries. No-one cared H!! He was on top form when anyone sought his advice re work as he is intelligent and could help them, always seeming like the hero. In the end, that is all he would talk about, work, and I remember feeling maybe because that is where he gets his praise, not so much from me, but them. I called him out on everything, and he was a very angry man, so maybe now it might make sense. He was hiding all this time, but in some ways, knew I was right, so would blow up and project.
On one of his visits after he left, he said, "Yeah, I told everyone what it was like for me living here, and as well, why do you always care about what other people think about you". I was lke :o ::) as he pretty much talked about himself. Interesting.
-
Yep SD my H always blew his own trumpet......needed a lot of praise.
His father was narcissistic and when one parent is narcissistic the other orbits... article on narcissistic family portrait...PG 1
-
Thanks init for the 2 links
Very informative ....helps to understand things better
and more importantly how to cope.
-
The key, then, to interacting with someone you suspect is narcissistic is to break the vicious circle—to gently thwart their frantic efforts to control, distance, defend or blame in the relationship by sending the message that you’re more than willing to connect with them, but not on these terms; to invite them into a version of intimacy where they can be loved and admired, warts and all—if they only allow the experience to happen.
The sentence in blue? Forget about that IMHO.
There is NO way to connect with a narcissist who's been that way thier whole life. Which may not be the case for most of you.
For this MLC behavior some of these people have been caring and concerned for others before the MLC happened. For the LBS's here on the board it's a behavior they have never exhibited before.
"Loved and admired warts and all" borders on unconditional love and they have NO idea what that is.
They operate in life with an ulterior motive most of the time and it's to get thier gigantic ego fed. So as far as genuine? They have no idea what that is.
So the best way to deal with a "lifer" is simply ignore them (if they'll let you). This starves monster to death. That's why i'm using NC as a way to deal with all of this.
New behavior for ME! And it's working I finally have PEACE!
-
Init
FIL was authoritative,controlling and narsissistic all his life ...SIL got married at 18 just to get out of the house and divorced 1 yr later ....If a person has this personality disorder,research suggests that there is a slightly increased risk for this disorder to be “passed down” to their children's
Causes of Narcissistic Personality Disorder
Researchers today don’t know what causes narcissistic personality disorder. There are many theories, however, about the possible causes of narcissistic personality disorder. Most professionals subscribe to a biopsychosocial model of causation — that is, the causes of are likely due to biological and genetic factors, social factors (such as how a person interacts in their early development with their family and friends and other children), and psychological factors (the individual’s personality and temperament, shaped by their environment and learned coping skills to deal with stress). This suggests that no single factor is responsible — rather, it is the complex and likely intertwined nature of all three factors that are important. If a person has this personality disorder, research suggests that there is a slightly increased risk for this disorder to be “passed down” to their children.
-
Yeah- his father ruled the house with anger and intimidation. No alcohol involved. It was always NO before HE decided it would be yes ....like he'd done something nice for you.
I asked for a small picture I liked of his mothers after her death. Nothing valuable just something I associated with her. Right off the bat "NO!' so I let it slide later he came to me and told me I could have it. Like it was some thoughtful gesture. I did take it.
Can anybody spell CONTROL.
We didn't get along well at all at first..me being the Jaded woman..being married before etc. Not good enough for HIS son. I went toe to toe with him one time over how he acted towards the ex. He backed down but there was always these comments..disparaging is all I can say. Humiliation was one of his favorite weapons.
Their family dynamic is twisted to say the least. Mother lives in denial of any of the damage of this or anything else in regards to her sons. NO EMPATHY- so I still think this is all learned behavior to a larger extent.
Ex's lack of empathy his whole life comes from both parents but I think more from his mother than his father. His father was the example of anger and intimidation. It was effective until the sons got older.
Frankly my compassion and empathy is gone for both of them. His father died years ago.
His mother enables ex's bad behavior- she's living next door to him.
-
Narcissism is a complex and often misunderstood character disorder. Less attention has been paid to the person who supplies what the narcissist needs.
This person is known as a narcissistic extension, and can suffer tremendous trauma and abuse while feeling blameworthy.
It is a difficult dilemma to solve, and is often perpetuated in adult relationships when children have had narcissistic parents, and less so, parents who act as narcissistic extensions.
-
In it
This person is known as a narcissistic extension, and can suffer tremendous trauma and abuse while feeling blameworthy.
They orbit around the narcissist to keep the marriage intact.
My MIL did this and H was the same .....I refused to encourage the abnormal behaviour which made me the bad DIL.
In ' The Narcissistic Family Portrait' on page 1
One Parent Narcissistic, The Other Orbits:
If one parent is narcissistic, it is common for the other parent to have to revolve around the narcissist to keep the marriage intact. Many times the other parent has redeeming qualities to give to the children, but is tied up meeting the needs of the narcissistic spouse. This often leaves the children's needs unmet. Who is there for them?
-
Nobody. That is the problem. Children grow up alone without parental love. That is why they can have low self esteem co-dependent behavior, conflict avoidance, fear of abandonment, never develop fully emotionally and as persons also can develop PD's.
-
EXACTLY! Whatever information you can keep up about this the clearer things will get.
A codependent thread has been started. That's the behavior everybody has do to the MLC. In certain degrees.
IMHO
I've gotta go..be back later..
((Hugs))
-
Albatross
That is so true.
But if the MLCer does not look inward then the LBS gets the projection.
At BD H blamed me because he did not get to see his mother before she died ....17yrs ago.
If I did'nt visit the in-laws H cud have ...why blame me.
Init
Knowledge is power
-
Attaching so I can find it.
-
Albatross
That is so true.
But if the MLCer does not look inward then the LBS gets the projection.
At BD H blamed me because he did not get to see his mother before she died ....17yrs ago.
If I did'nt visit the in-laws H cud have ...why blame me.
Init
Knowledge is power
Yea. My MLCer look inward and conclude that she is nuts ! And she have to leave all and live alone instead changing self.
When we clash in February then she start to blame me ! Projection. So, after fight she stay in between. She blame self but wont change self ! Also blame me for something. And she reconsider is she loving me, then she conclude that she can't loving me. That we never been compatible and proceed with replay.
-
Mine has'nt yet looked inward ....everything is still my fault.
I got the same thing with regards to compatibility......we are not meant for each other.
.....replay and the OP....just like in ur case.
I told him that he was creating an emotional disconnect between us bc of the OP.
Of he did'nt want to hear the TRUTH.
-
Mine has'nt yet looked inward ....everything is still my fault.
I got the same thing with regards to compatibility......we are not meant for each other.
.....replay and the OP....just like in ur case.
I told him that he was creating an emotional disconnect between us bc of the OP.
Of he did'nt want to hear the TRUTH.
All script. I wouldn't waste your breath talking about it.
-
SD
That was 6 mths ago...Lets hope he starts ruminating about what
I've said.....otherwise like u said it wud be a waste of effort.
Still early days...we shall see.
-
Lovebystanding~ so if H says " I have always done that" "I" set it up that way......"It always happended because of me"....maybe just maybe he is beginning to own it, He is looking inward?? It has been 3 years since BD, we are reconnecting/reconciling BUT I have heard him say those things. I have been trying to figure out if his BPD actions will end or if it here for good. time will tell but I kind of feel some affirmation after reading this thread. Maybe I really am in the part of the tunnel that I thought I was??? Whole thing is a guessing game. Wish we were all just watching like a movie instead of living it!! :):):):)
31andcounting
-
Your're right 31andcounting.....time will tell...the MLCer needs time...we need time.
It is a guessing game like u said.....nice to know ur H is reconnecting..... the chemical imbalance
must be coming back to normal.....that too takes TIME.
" Wish we were all just watching like a movie instead of living it"
I am told detachment helps .....once you can really detach and see all this for the truth it can sometimes be funny ..as if u r watching a movie. If it wasnt for all the hurt that these MLcers cause.
-
I am told detachment helps .....once you can really detach and see all this for the truth it can sometimes be funny ..as if u r watching a movie. If it wasnt for all the hurt that these MLcers cause.
Yes, LBS, I think detachment is the key, and the more you do it, the easier it becomes, and you can see the funny side. Guess that also has a lot to do with what kind of MLCer you have too, whether a clinger or vanisher, or whatever inbetween.
We are "fortunate" to have a vanisher, which helps tremendously with detachment, and now we are at the point where if we speak of him, we either laugh or roll our eyes. He is so, so mean, but even with that, you just get so tired of it, it is annoying and frustrating to see someone so ridiculous.
-
I am so confused. My h treats me like garbage. Yet he plays this loving father and boyfriend to everyone else. No one would ever believe me since there are no witnesses to the text or emails. He does stay far from me never contacting me unless question for the kids. Today he texted he was mad s after school club was cancelled and s didn't know and called after school and he had to rush there. I responded "welcome to my world" . Really I get stuff like that all the time like s having no shoes in car for school 30 minutes away and I had to go but some.
So what does h say. "It's not about you".
I just can't take this anymore. I feel like garbage not of the time from him. Either what he says or how he acts and looks different now without and not for me. He doesn't match the narcissist. So feel like I can't blame it on that.
-
Does he have a problem with sarcasm? Were you being sarcastic? If you were.. his response was what he wanted to say in response to that.
That's how I read that anyway..
Have you read about all the different kinds of narcissists there are?
-
I don't know if it was sarcastic. It is my world. Jumping and doing for the kids things that may not go my way during the day. That's life with kids. He thinks the world revolves around him. People will help him, do what he wants even last minute, yet if it happens to him, he's mad. He is the easy going, it will work out attitude. And it does. Not because he thinks God has him, he just knows things go his way. Like he got his new furniture I never let him have, he got ow that he thinks is better than I was, he got the days he requested with the kids, he can start paying off debt since ow is living there paying stuff for him, he manages the kids since he only has 2 of 3 and ow cooks and cleans. He's one of those people that things happen for him and the no one can argue he's wrong since it works out.
-
That seems to be my take on my situation also...seems to fall in a bucket of $h!te and comes out smelling like roses.
Narcissists tend to have that happen to them..entitled attitude and all that goes with this.
Just stay away from him. NO CALLS, no texts, no help, no information, no nothing. Deprive him of YOU.
You'll see....you need to let go.
-
I just have to remain all of you that people which hit MLC become opposite what they was before MLC. Light is opposite to dark. Light is opposite to shadow. Shadow is opposite to light. What that means ?
- Extroverted become introverted.
- Introverted become extroverted.
- People which was calm become restless.
- People which was restless become come.
- Narcissistic people become generous, express emotions and become total opposite what narcissist is !
- Normal people become narcissistic egocentric people.
We all have conciseness and subconsciousness. In other words we have Light and Shadow. Light cannot exists without shadow. Shadow cannot exist without light !
So, LBS which judge MLC spouse by current behavior doing the same thing as MLCers does, rewrite history !
Stages of Victim Development
Bomb Drop
Panic & Anxiety
Denial Throughout
Shock
Bargaining
Hopelessness
Realization of Loss
Denial Continues
Becoming a Victim
Suppression: I'm not going to deal with this right now.
Anger
Self-Pity Anger: Why me?
Guilt, Shame, Humiliation
Self-Righteous Anger: blames spouse
I'm Done.
Due to either anger or helplessness, may be fleeting
Justice & Revenge--the need to destroy
Fantasies of revenge
Occasionally small scale pranks
Hell hath no fury...
Becoming the Scorned Woman (Second Inner Circle)
Rewrite Story: define heroes & villains
Reinforce Innocence
Deny Responsibility
Dehumanize Spouse
Justified Aggression
Roles Change: Victim to Aggressor
More about read in RCR article: CLICK HERE (http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/self-focus_unconditionals_forgiveness_stages-of-victim-development.html)
Whole of up scenario MLCer going trough. If we as LBS doing that then what is the difference between LBS & MLCer ? It is like two kids start to fight. They spiral up - escalate problem till physical fights ! How immature is that. Usually parent punish such behavior on way that both kids are punished the same. And then one child point finger on other one and said he start it ! Parent only can spot that both children behave the same. People who perceive can't see difference between them. Is it really important who start it ?
-
No it's not important who starts it..It's who ends it.
And I FINALLY DID.
It's the LBS's decision in the end.
There is NO EXCUSE for physical violence.
I don't care how crazy you think someone is. It's NO REASON to put your hands on them in anger.
When someones had enough emotional and/or physical abuse it's time to end it.
AND they need to think about the kids!
-
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/stop-walking-eggshells/201201/lack-empathy-the-most-telling-narcissistic-trait
-
Albatross
Thanks for the insight.
From the Blog Topic: http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3987.50
“People with healthy levels of narcissism are also able to step outside their own perspective long enough to assess how their behavior may be affecting others around them. This ability to avoid becoming stuck in narcissistic mode, and to consider the impact of your actions on the feelings of others, is one of the key distinctions between healthy and extreme levels of narcissism.”
Init
Thanks for the link.
-
You're welcome LBS-
The levels of narcissism are complex. Some of it involves self esteem..and lack thereof.
Once someone can focus and realize thier own self worth only then will they put an end to the abuse.
We hold the power to end it. Only then can we take the time to reflect on ourselves and make things better for US not necessarily them.
A true narcissist can never be dealt with again. That's true in my case.
-
I swear, this is such an education for me :):):) I truly am thankful for this site and everything that everyone puts on it!! Please continue!
31andcounting
-
31and counting
Hope the article below helps too:
The Relationship Destroyers – Cluster B
Cluster B are personalities that are highly dramatic, both emotionally and behaviorally. Antisocial, Borderline, Narcissistic, and Histrionic Personality are in this group.
Mental health professionals have identified ten personality disorders, each with their own pattern of behaviors, emotionality, and symptoms. However, allCluster B Personality Disorders have core personality features that serve as the foundation for their specific personality disorder. Some of those core personality features are:
•Self-Centered We often hear the phrase “It’s All About Me”. When making decisions, a healthy person weighs the needs and concerns of others as well as their own. A Personality Disorder weighs only their needs and concerns. APersonality Disorder may use money to feed their family for their own purpose. A brother with a Personality Disorder may intimidate an elderly parent for money or manipulate a legal situation to eliminate siblings from an inheritance. In most situations, if we are contacted by a Personality Disorder, the contact is for THEIR purpose, not ours.
•Refusal to Accept Personal Responsibility for Their Behavior Individuals with aPersonality Disorder almost never accept personal responsibility for their behavior. They blame others, uses excuses, claim misunderstandings, and then depict themselves as the victim in the situation. Those that are physically abusive actually blame the victims of their abuse for the assault. Victims often hear “This is your fault! Why did you make me angry?” This aspect of a Personality Disorderis very damaging when the Personality Disorder is a parent. They blame the children for their abusive, neglectful, or dysfunctional behavior. Children are told they are responsible for the temper tantrums, alcohol/substance abuse, unemployment, poverty, unhappiness, etc. of their parent. During a divorce, aPersonality Disorder parent often blames the children.
•Self-Justification Individuals with a Personality Disorder don’t think, reason, feel, and behave normally. However, they typically justify ALL of their behaviors. Their justification often comes from their view that they have been victims of society or others and are therefore justified in their manipulative, controlling, criminal or abusive behaviors. A common justification in criminals is to blame the victim for the crime as when hearing “It’s his fault (the victim) that he got shot. He should have given me the money faster.” Healthy adults find it impossible to reason with a Personality Disorder, finding their justifications impossible to understand.
•Entitlement Individuals with a Personality Disorder have a tremendous sense of entitlement, a sense that they deserve respect, money, fame, power, authority, attention, etc. Some feel they are entitled to be the center of attention and when that doesn’t happen, they are entitled to create a scene or uproar to gain that attention. Entitlement also creates a justification to punish others in thePersonality Disorder. If you violate one of their rules or demands, they feel entitled to punish you in some way.
•Shallow Emotions Healthy people are always amazed and astonished that a person with a Personality Disorder can quickly detach from a partner, move on, and exhibit very little in the way of remorse or distress. A Personality Disordercan find another partner following a breakup, often within days. These same individuals can also quickly detach from their family and children. They can become angry with their parents and not contact them for years. A Personality Disorder can abandon their children while blaming the spouse/partner for their lack of support and interest. Their ability to behave in this manner is related to their “Shallow Emotions”. The best way to think of Shallow Emotions is to have a great $300.00 automobile (192 euros). You have a limited investment in the automobile and when it’s running great you have no complaints. You take the effort to maintain maintenance on the vehicle as long as the costs are low. If it develops costly mechanical difficulties, it’s cheaper to dispose of it and get another $300.00 automobile that will run well. Also, if you move a large distance, you leave it behind because it’s more costly to transport it. A Personality Disorderhas shallow emotions and often views those around them as $300.00 autos. Their emotional investment in others is minimal. If their partner is too troublesome, they quickly move on. If parents criticize their behavior, they end their relationship with them…until they need something.
•Situational Morality A Personality Disorder takes pride in being able to “do what I gotta do” to have their demands/needs met. They have few personal or social boundaries and in the severe cases, do not feel bound by laws of the land and quickly engage in criminal activity if needed. The motto of a Personality Disorder is “the end justifies the means”. Situational morality creates rather extreme behaviors and many Personality Disorders have no hesitation to harm themselves or others to meet their needs. Activities often seen as manipulative are tools of the trade for a Personality Disorder and include lying, dishonesty, conning behavior, intimidation, scheming, and acting. Many Personality Disorders are “social chameleons” and after evaluating a potential victim/partner, alter their presentation to be the most effective. Severe Personality Disorders have no hesitation about self-injury and will cut themselves, overdose, threaten suicide,or otherwise injure themselves with the goal of retaining their partner using guilt and obligation.
•Narcissism and Ineffective Lives A Personality Disorder has a strong influence on the life and lifestyle of the individual. Cluster B personality disorders often have two lives – their “real life” and the imaginary life they present to others that is full of excuses, half-truths, deceptions, cons, lies, fantasies, and stories prepared for a specific purpose. Physical abusers who were forcibly and legal removed from their children and spouse develop a story that the in-laws conspired with the police to separate them from the children they love so deeply. Jail time is often reinterpreted as “I took the blame for my friend so he could continue to work and support his family”. A major finding in a Personality Disorder is an ineffective life – reports of tremendous talent and potential but very little in the way of social or occupational success. It’s a life of excuses and deceptions. Narcissistic and Antisocial “losers” often promise romantic cruises that never take place or have a reason that their partner needs to place an automobile in his/her name. Their lives are often accompanied by financial irresponsibility, chronic unemployment, legal difficulties, and unstable living situations in the community. Their behavior often emotionally exhausts those around them – something the Personality Disorderexplains with “My family and I have had a falling out.” We can be assured that no matter what “real life” situation is present in the life of the Personality Disorder, there will be a justification and excuse for it.
•Social Disruption There is never a calm, peaceful, and stable relationship with a Cluster B Personality Disorder! Their need to be the center of attention and control those around them assures a near-constant state of drama, turmoil, discord, and distress. An individual with a Personality Disorder creates drama and turmoil in almost every social situation. Holidays, family reunions, outings in the community, travel, and even grocery shopping are often turned into a social nightmare. The Personality Disorder also creates disruption in their family system. They are the focus of feuds, grudges, bad feelings, jealousy, and turmoil. If you have a member of your family that you hate to see arrive at a family reunion or holiday dinner – he or she probably has a Personality Disorder.
•Manipulation As A Way of Life To obtain our daily personal, social, and emotional needs a healthy individual has a variety of strategies to use including taking personal action, politely asking someone, making deals, being honest, etc. Healthy individuals also use manipulation as one of many social skills – buying someone a gift to cheer them up, making comments and giving hints that something in desired, etc. For the Personality Disorder, despite the many social strategies available, manipulation is their preferred method of obtaining their wants and needs. The manipulations of a Personality Disorder - when combined with shallow emotions, entitlement, and being self-centered – can be extreme. To obtain their goals, an Antisocial Personality may physically threaten, harass, intimidate, and assault those around them. Histrionic Personalities may create dramatic situations, threaten self-harm, or create social embarrassment. Narcissistic Personalities may send police and an ambulance to your home if you don’t answer their phone calls, using the excuse that they were concerned about you. Their real goal is to assure you that their phone calls MUST be answered or you will pay the consequences. Borderline Personalities may self-injure in your physical presence. In a relationship with a Personality Disorder we are constantly faced with a collection of schemes, situations, manipulations, and interactions that have a hidden agenda…their agenda.
•The Talk and Behavior Gap We know how people are by two samples of their personality – their talk and their behavior. A person who is honest has talk/conversation/promises that match their behavior almost 100%. If he/she borrows money and tells you they will repay you Friday, and then pays you Friday, you have an honest person. When we observe these matches frequently, then we can give more trust to that individual in the future. The wider the gap between what a person says/promises and what they do – the more they are considered dishonest, unreliable, irresponsible, etc. Due to the shallow emotions and situational morality often found in a Personality Disorder, the gap between talk and behavior can be very wide. A Personality Disorder can often assure their spouse that they love them while having an extramarital affair, borrow money with no intention of paying it back, promise anything with no intention of fulfilling that promise, and assure you of their friendship while spreading nasty rumors about you. A rule: Judge a person by their behavior more than their talk or promises.
•Dysfunctional Parents Individuals with a Personality Disorder are frequently parents. However, they are frequently dysfunctional parents. Personality Disorderparents often see their children as a burden to their personal goals, are often jealous of the attention their children receive, often feel competitive with their older children, and often attempt to obtain their personal goals through their children. Personality Disorder parents control their children through manipulation with little concern for how their parenting behavior will later influence the lives or the personality of the child. Personality Disorder parents are often hypercritical, leaving the child with the feeling that they are incompetent or unworthy. In extreme cases, Antisocial parents criminally neglect, abuse, or exploit their children – often teaching them to become criminals. Criminal parents often use their children to steal or carry drugs to avoid criminal charges as an adult, allowing the children to face the legal charges. Spouses with a Personality Disorder are often jealous of the attention their partner provides to children in the home, frequently targeting the child for verbal abuse in their jealousy. The narcissism and shallow emotions in a Personality Disorder parent leave the children feeling unloved, unwanted, unworthy, and unappreciated.
-
Well..I could edit out a few parts but overall it's him.
-
Heal from it there is a LOT of information online!
http://www.loveisrespect.org/staying-strong-after-a-break-up?gclid=CN23n_CO-LoCFdBlOgodhCkA6Q
-
MLCers look exactly as PD cluster B people. But they was normal before, at least majority of them.
-
Albatross,Init
Thanks for your comments.
a midlife crisis is not permanent unlike a personality disorder
-
wow thanks LBS. So I am trying to decide if H has a "MLC induced PD" or if he really "always has had" a PD???? I have to admit, because of our history it seems he has always had it......probably because of childhood issues, he lost some time growing up, THAT I know for sure. Do you think someone with a PD can change, I mean MLC is a transition, they shed the old that isn't working anymore OR will it always be there?
31
-
31andcounting
That is what I am questioning too wrt my H.
I think if they were like that before MLC ,therapy wud be required.... if they are willing to take it!
See below:
What Is the Outlook for People With Narcissistic Personality Disorder?
The prognosis depends on the severity of the disorder and the degree to which people who seek treatment recognize problems within themselves and desire to change aspects of their personality that may be maladaptive.
-
lbs~ My H went to IC during this crisis, have no idea the discussions, but he has indicated to me that it helped alot! He also "said he was at therapy" when in fact he was with OW so.....not sure I can put much stock in statement :):) seems to be my top question these days? has he done enough to really work on himself and his issues?
31
-
31andcounting...It's a starting point in the right direction.
It's 3 yrs since BD in your case...when did your H first have therapy?...it's early days in my case
However there are others who do not even consider therapy see below.
Midlife increases narcissistic defenses
Who knew there might be insurmountable obstacles to someone's maturation and/or ability to attach to people? Their 'unhealthy narcissism' was always there, though it was not necessarily pathological until the narcissist was unable to work through a 'crisis' of some kind. When a narcissistic person faces a crisis between self-perceptions and reality, ego defenses increase. Perhaps for the first time, we will see: grandiosity, arrogance, entitlement, exhibitionism, vanity, superiority, a pretense of self-sufficiency, and defiance of authority. Then suddenly, YOU are accused of being controlling simply because you expected fidelity.
At midlife, narcissists become increasingly impulsive. Their capacity for restraint is diminished. In their younger years, they may have been able to control impulsive behavior for the sake of their IMAGE. Once they lose their ability to restrain their impulses and their IMAGE is destroyed, there may be no recourse for remorse. They may not be a way to reconcile the truth of their behavior with the Image of who they either pretended or believed themselves to be.
Rather than tolerate grief for the harm they caused others, take responsibility to fix the mess they created, live with the sadness of knowing they hurt their family/partner, etc. the narcissist will avoid responsibility by replacing the people in his life. We are props in a theatrical presentation and having been judged incompetent and imperfect, his highness dismisses us without warning.
-
Interesting for sure:) It did become "worse" each and every crisis.....BUT it does seem as though he is trying to take responsibility for his actions...for hurting the ones he loved, in his own way. I mean, my way would be different than the ways he is trying to "make up" but I am accepting his overtures, because he is attempting to do it his way. Will it be enough, time will tell I guess.
We were young when we began our R....and even in those days, "dates" could sometimes become "huge fights" over silly little things, and he always created the issue, but of course I would "respond and react" which fueled it! BUT there was a time during this crisis when he was cleared eyed/mind and he said to me" I have always done this (created the fight) haven't I ?" So maybe, just maybe he does "get it" and maybe just maybe it will change???
time is my friend and patience is a virtue!!!
thanks :)
31
-
Question:
Are narcissists likely to go through a midlife crisis and, if so, to what extent does such a crisis ameliorate or exacerbate their condition?
Answer:
The sometimes severe crises experienced by persons of both sexes in middle age (a.k.a. the "midlife crisis" or the "change of life") is a much discussed though little understood phenomenon. It is not even certain that the beast exists.
Women go through menopause between the ages of 42-55 (the average age of onset in the USA is 51.3). The amount of the hormone oestrogen in their bodies decreases sharply, important parts of the reproductive system shrink and menstruation ceases. Many women suffer from "hot flashes" and a thinning and fracturing of the bones (osteoporosis).
The "male menopause" is a more contentious issue. Men do experience a gradual decline in testosterone levels but nothing as sharp as the woman's deterioration of her oestrogen supply. No link has been found between these physiological and hormonal developments and the mythical "midlife crisis".
This fabled turning point has to do with the gap between earlier plans, dreams and aspirations and one's drab and hopeless reality. Come middle age, men are supposed to be less satisfied with life, career, or spouse. People get more disappointed and disillusioned with age. They understand that they are not likely to have a second chance, that they largely missed the train, that their dreams will remain just that. They have nothing to look forward to. They feel spent, bored, fatigued and trapped.
Some adults embark on a transition. They define new goals, look for new partners, form new families, engage in new hobbies, change vocation and avocation alike, or relocate. They regenerate and reinvent themselves and the structures of their lives. Others just grow bitter. Unable to face the shambles, they resort to alcoholism, workaholism, emotional absence, abandonment, escapism, degeneration, or a sedentary lifestyle.
Another pillar of discontent is the predictability of adult life. Following a brief flurry, in early adulthood, of excitement and vigour, of dreams and hopes, fantasies and aspirations, we succumb to and sink into the mire of mediocrity. The mundane engulfs us and digests us. Routines consume our energy and leave us dilapidated and empty. We know with dull certainty what awaits us and this ubiquitous rut is maddening.
Paradoxically, the narcissist is best equipped to successfully tackle these problems. The narcissist suffers from mental progeria. Subject to childhood abuse, he ages prematurely and finds himself in a time warp, constantly in the throes of a midlife crisis.
The narcissist keeps dreaming, hoping, planning, conspiring, scheming and fighting all his life. As far as he is concerned, reality, with its sobering feedback, does not exist. He occupies a world of his own where hope springs eternal. It is a universe of recurrent serendipity, inevitable fortuity, auspiciousness, lucky chances and coincidences, no downs and uplifting ups. It is an unpredictable, titillating, and exciting world. The narcissist may feel bored for long stretches of time but only because he can't wait for the ultimate thrill.
The narcissist experiences a constant midlife crisis. His reality is always way short of his dreams and aspirations. He suffers a constant Grandiosity Gap – the same Gap that plagues the healthy midlife adult. But the narcissist has one advantage: he is used to being disappointed and disillusioned. He inflicts setbacks and defeats upon himself by devaluing persons and situations that he had previously idealised.
The narcissist regularly employs a host of mechanisms to cope with this simmering, festering incessant "crisis". Cognitive dissonance, over- and de- valuation cycles, abrupt mood swings, changes in behaviour patterns, goals, companions, mates, jobs and locations are the narcissist's daily bread and escapist weapons.
Whereas the healthy and mature adult confronts the abyss between his image of himself and his real self, his dreams and his achievements, his fantasyland and his reality only late in life – the narcissist does so constantly and from an early age.
The healthy and mature adult recoils from the predictability of his routine and is abhorred by it. The narcissist's life is not predictable or routine in any sense of the word.
The mature 40+ years old adult tries to remedy the structural and emotional deficits of his existence either by a renewed commitment to it or by a cataclysmic break with it. The narcissist so regularly and habitually does both that these decisions are rendered flitting and insignificant
The narcissist's personality is rigid but his life is changeable and tumultuous, his typical day riddled with surprises and unpredictable, his grandiose fantasies so far removed from his reality that even his disillusionment and disappointments are fantastic and, thus, easily overcome.
Soon enough, the narcissist is engaged in a new project, as exciting, as grandiose and as impossible as the ones before. The gap between his confabulations and the truth is so yawning that he chooses to ignore his reality. He recruits people around him to affirm this choice and to confirm to him that reality is illusory and that his fantasyland is real.
Such pretensions are counterproductive and self-defeating, but they also serve as perfect defences. The narcissist does not go through a midlife crisis because he is forever the child, forever dreaming and fantasising, forever enamoured with himself and with the narrative that is his life.
-
Albatross, are you saying that if someone is a true narcissists they will not go through a MLC/ transition and change?? A life long narc with BPD will constantly and continually act in this way?? Never to "see the wrongs" they just keep on "doing what they do"? Their life is a constant crisis?
or am I interpreting this wrong?
31andcounting
-
Albatross, are you saying that if someone is a true narcissists they will not go through a MLC/ transition and change?? A life long narc with BPD will constantly and continually act in this way?? Never to "see the wrongs" they just keep on "doing what they do"? Their life is a constant crisis?
or am I interpreting this wrong?
31andcounting
You get it right. They never hit mid life crisis, their whole life is crisis.
-
Thank you, that kind of helps my thinking some :):):)
A "little clearer" everyday! Ha, just like my H maybe ???
31
-
I know it's right on the mark for the ex...
-
Great Thread!
Thank you for this!
-
Attaching to find again.
-
Some adults embark on a transition. They define new goals, look for new partners, form new families, engage in new hobbies, change vocation and avocation alike, or relocate. They regenerate and reinvent themselves and the structures of their lives. Others just grow bitter. Unable to face the shambles, they resort to alcoholism, workaholism, emotional absence, abandonment, escapism, degeneration, or a sedentary lifestyle.
This is the kind of sentence I read that throws me off. Maybe our spouses are doing just that. This is when I think my H isn't coming home, and not in MLC, he just did the above.
-
Snowdrop I agree. It all goes back to morals. Unfortunately less and less people have them. Those that believe in what God wants, stays for better or worse. It will never be perfect at any time. People change but should do it together . Just because you get a new hobby (like mine did-poker) does not mean you leave your family and then find a new women to start again with at age 41. If you made mistakes, fix them don't just try again with new people. I feel that he knows exactly his failures as a husband and father, so he has given up on his oldest, tries too hard to prove he loves his other 2, but has hopes to do things right with OW and maybe have new kids. Sometimes I read things about MLC and it says that people need to go through the transition it never says they should stay with their spouse. It is pretty sad the world is about moving on, being happy at any expense to others.
-
"One bright, beautiful Sunday morning, everyone in tiny Anytown got up early and went to the local church. Before the service started, the townspeople were sitting in their pews and talking about their lives, their families, and so on.
Suddenly, Satan appeared at the front of the church.
Everyone started screaming and running for the front entrance, trampling each other in a frantic effort to get away from evil incarnate. Soon everyone had left the church except for an elderly gentleman who sat calmly in his pew, not moving, seemingly oblivious to the fact that God's ultimate enemy was in his presence.
Now, this confused Satan a bit, so he walked up to the man and said, "Hey! Don't you know who I am?"
The man replied, "Yep, sure do."
Satan asked, "Aren't you afraid of me?"
"Nope, sure ain't," said the man.
Satan was a little perturbed at this and queried, "Why aren't you afraid of me?"
The man calmly replied, "I've been married to your sister for 25 years."
-
Snowdrop I agree. It all goes back to morals. Unfortunately less and less people have them. Those that believe in what God wants, stays for better or worse. It will never be perfect at any time. People change but should do it together . Just because you get a new hobby (like mine did-poker) does not mean you leave your family and then find a new women to start again with at age 41. If you made mistakes, fix them don't just try again with new people. I feel that he knows exactly his failures as a husband and father, so he has given up on his oldest, tries too hard to prove he loves his other 2, but has hopes to do things right with OW and maybe have new kids. Sometimes I read things about MLC and it says that people need to go through the transition it never says they should stay with their spouse. It is pretty sad the world is about moving on, being happy at any expense to others.
Exactly Disneyme...
I shake my head because I thought my h was a better man and it so sad to see the reality of who he is. It goes back to seeking that fantasy life that doesn't exist. Seeking a high from whatever drug of choice but that wears thin and they will be back to their miserable self. We don't want this in our lives, we will redefine or lives and become happier people.
-
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
I LOVE the joke Albatross!!
-
Snowdrop I agree. It all goes back to morals. Unfortunately less and less people have them. Those that believe in what God wants, stays for better or worse. It will never be perfect at any time. People change but should do it together . Just because you get a new hobby (like mine did-poker) does not mean you leave your family and then find a new women to start again with at age 41. If you made mistakes, fix them don't just try again with new people. I feel that he knows exactly his failures as a husband and father, so he has given up on his oldest, tries too hard to prove he loves his other 2, but has hopes to do things right with OW and maybe have new kids. Sometimes I read things about MLC and it says that people need to go through the transition it never says they should stay with their spouse. It is pretty sad the world is about moving on, being happy at any expense to others.
Exactly Disneyme...
I shake my head because I thought my h was a better man and it so sad to see the reality of who he is. It goes back to seeking that fantasy life that doesn't exist. Seeking a high from whatever drug of choice but that wears thin and they will be back to their miserable self. We don't want this in our lives, we will redefine or lives and become happier people.
Well said Magnite38 :) This has been me recently; I just feel so much disappointment with my H.
-
31andcounting,Disney me,Snowdrop,searching4answers,Magnite38,Init,Albatross,Annstacy
thanks for your comments
It is all about morals .... but it cud be that when men withdraw from their wives sexually, we often think of infidelity, when in actuality, depression may be to blame....from what i have read on depression....see my blog topic. http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3987.0;all
That does'nt change the fact that what they are doing is wrong and is against the vows they took.
In the case of true narcissism their whole life is crisis.
During MLC the MLcer exhibits narcissistic traits.
Not everyone hindered by narcissistic traits has a personality disorder.
Not everyone with a narcissistic personality disorder is a psychopath.
You can't know for sure, just how entrenched someone's narcissism might be.
If someone has a personality disorder, they'll undoubtedly become hostile (a defense against shame) to any suggestion they might be the cause of their own chaos. That they need treatment. That something is wrong with them.
"Narcissism springs from an opposite relationship with the self: not self-involvement, but a disconnection with oneself...A diagnosis of narcissism is not a black-and-white matter; rather, it's a matter of degree." ....narcissism as a disconnection from the self .....meaning it is a relational disorder with one's self (intra-personal). This internal disconnect leads to relational problems outside one's self (inter-personal) resulting in stormy, even mutually destructive relationships.
Only when other people complain about the narcissist's one-sided self-preoccupied focus, do most narcissists question whether something might be amiss. Depending on the value narcissists place on those complainingrelationships, they may want to change. Even when narcissists want to change their self-preoccupation, they must preoccupy themselves with themselves in order to do it
The lack of genuine interest in, and empathy for others, is isolating. Narcissism disconnects us from our real self when perfection is the criteria for self-acceptance; and narcissism disconnects from imperfect others. People with narcissistic personalities profess a desire for love and intimacy but fear rejection and thus devalue intimacy and vulnerability as weaknesses. They tear love down.
The emotional and psychological costs to other people when they are discarded by narcissists is enormous and should never be justified. Human beings are not stepping stones to another person's search for authenticity.
Why learn about narcissism if we can't share what we've learned with the narcissist?
The point in learning about the narcissistic personality is understanding. We learn about narcissism to end the confusion, to stop the blame that ensues when we can't make sense of their behavior. If we make assumptions about the other person based on our values and beliefs, we'll misinterpret theirseemingly nonsensical responses and reactions. Then we will react, escalating a comedy of errors. Like assuming a narcissistic person cares as much about being "nice" as we do. Telling someone with a narcissistic personality that they are NOT nice, won't result in an apology for hurting everyone's feelings. Saying they are NOT nice, might be a compliment if they value dominance as most narcissists do. "You're not nice!" won't be a deterrent. People who treasure relationships value being nice.
-
The emotional and psychological costs to other people when they are discarded by narcissists is enormous and should never be justified. Human beings are not stepping stones to another person's search for authenticity
This is what happened to me..discarded, thrown away, dismissed, cast out, another attempt at humiliation, another thing he fears.
Not sure what the justification is for him. But I figured out how to deal with him. He wanted to play more games.
I had to find something that scared the $h!te right out of him. Then you have to have the guts to go through with it if the boundaries get challenged. And I do believe me.
-
http://thenarcissistinyourlife.com/tag/terror-of-narcissistic-abused-spouse/
The ex went so far as to say in regards to property taxes (we aren't talking about relationships or fantasy lives or anything like that). We are talking about MONEY he needs to have in order to pay PROPERTY TAXES.
I explained to him with NO money coming in eventually he WILL LOSE THE HOUSE if he doesn't have enough money to pay the taxes.
HIS RESPONSE?
Shaking his head looking at me replies
" Oh they'd never do that to me"
:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
-
I don't have a mouse to copy and paste this....LONG STORY...but if someone does could they please paste it to Devils Angels thread. She may find it helpful.
Thank you :)
-
Lovebystanding can they be a narcissists to some but not others? I feel like he is that way with me, but not OW. He makes sure to wait for dinner for her. He leaves kids events early for her. He will move where she wants. In the beginning, he did let me make decisions, but now he is the devil towards me.
-
Lovebystanding can they be a narcissists to some but not others? I feel like he is that way with me, but not OW. He makes sure to wait for dinner for her. He leaves kids events early for her. He will move where she wants. In the beginning, he did let me make decisions, but now he is the devil towards me.
They in full blown replay usually being very narcissistic. But they are different to OW/OM because they give them everything what they want, so they get narcissistic supply from them. And that is also narcissistic behavior.
-
I ask because h gets the feeling and attention from ow but really he does whatever she wants. Moves where she wants, waits for dinner until she gets home, etc. our relationship was that I made the decisions and he said whatever. But now with me, it is I don't control him, he does what he wants, etc. doesn't matter anymore since divorce is final. But I was wondering.
-
http://joyfulalivewoman.wordpress.com/2010/12/30/cutting-ties-with-a-narcissist/
Help yourself heal from this...
HUGS....
-
http://anupturnedsoul.wordpress.com/2013/07/20/are-you-a-magnet-for-narcissists/
I'm on a quest on how to NOT attract another one of these pricks! ;D ;D ;D ;D
This helped a WHOLE LOT!
((((HUGS))))
-
Like that one InIt. ;) It explains my NP X and NP OW. Hey, the ones that fall for these men are genuine caring people...got to love that. :). X's lost, I am way better off, actually feel sorry for him.
-
Feel sorry for him but DON"T EVER get sucked back in again!!! Empathy and sympathy and compassion are powerful emotion. And NO BASIS for a healthy relationship.
Time to have those for yourself. :)
-
I believe it is hard not to fall for these guys they tell you everything you want to hear. Once you realize what is going on...you have already fallen for them. My X truly does think he is God or superhuman...crazy. He is way better than everyone and now in his crisis is not afraid to show it. He really thinks he deserves someone to fall all over him and to worship him, which is OW and who care about anyone else. It really is all about him and really always has been but in the past has been modest about his narcissism. There is no hiding now and he feels like he has the right to do what he is doing... He deserves it. ::) his OW show the female NP symptoms...she did whatever she had to to seduce X. How will this end up for them who knows if they are both crazy but it can't be good. Init Iplan to stay far away from him, I am stubborn and don't believe I forgive or trust this man again. I believe I am way too trusting never could/ want to believe people would play you like this. I realize I am who I am and I know I am a good person. I will move beyond this, just sux that I have to deal with him for many, many years because of the kids. I think I will fall into a nice routine where little contact will need to be made.
-
The OW narcissist.
http://sandrarose.com/2013/01/the-female-narcissist/
Poor X, lol.
-
The ex is a narcissist BUT exow was a sociopath. He remarked he couldn't believe how SMART she was in regards to manipulating him NEVER encountered anybody like her before.
I told him "You friggin idiot you've been dealing with ME for 32 years! What do you think every woman is as honest as ME?"
-
This passage in the above website helped me to realize what I've known all along.
And now that he's had the $h!te scared out of him MAYBE he'll leave me ALONE!
You being you, all of you, uncensored, is a frightening and horrifying monster to a Narcissist. Because you are being real, and real people scare the $h!te out of Narcissists.
They are not being real, they know that they are not being real, even if most of that knowledge is buried in their subconscious and they think that they are very real.
They think everyone else is as fake as they are, in fact they think others are more fake than they are. They are their reference point for the world. They can’t express genuine emotions, or voice their real thoughts, and they apply this to others.
They don’t actually know how to be real, and the very thought of it scares them. So when you are real and genuine, it stirs up the real person buried deep within them, and they live in fear of their real self because they don’t know who their real self is, it is unknown, and the fear of the unknown chills them to the marrow.
This fear of their real self is the spur which governs their entire life, and all of their subsequent behaviour is an attempt to escape and kill this real self off, and replace it with an idealised self of their own creation.
The ultimate lesson and gift that a relationship with a Narcissist gives you is this… Be yourself, all of you.
-
I think the passage that in it posted here is absolutely true of anyone who has a PD.
My h has let slip once or twice thAt he envies me being myself warts and all, but I know he fears and hides who he really is, thinks no one will like what lies beneath. If what lies beneath is what I have seen for past 5 years then he is absolutely right !!
Sad
X
-
My h's OW is a narcissist, she ticks 16 of the 18 red flags. She also asked me whether I'd be so threatened if she wasn't so pretty Lol....
Heaven help me if H is a narcissist as well, although could make for an interesting relationship between the two of them ;)
-
Technically if he is? It should burn out REALLY FAST.
They will slather each other with praise and admiration and then the selfishness kicks in on both ends. One accuses the other of not "thinking about them" or whatever - the $h!te hits the fan.
Two selfish, self centered, self absorbed, people cannot hold a relationship together.
He might be a "giver" for a while as he doesn't want to be "WRONG" about this. He might just hang on a lot longer than he should.
Depends on how stupid and stubborn he is.
And I hope you aren't responding to whatever way she's communicating with you Ceri
-
I read this wonderful article about the Midlife Narcissist, don't know if it is already posted on here.....it is from www.won forum.blogspot.com:-
What does decompensation mean?
“Worsening psychiatric condition: the deterioration of existing psychological defenses in a patient already exhibiting pathological behavior.”
Decompensation is a removal of the props (ego defenses) sustaining an inflated self-esteem that was unable to 'compensate' for an injury of some kind. In other words, decompensation occurs when the narcissist’s grandiosity is not validated by reality; their self image is impossible to sustain. At midlife, with all the struggles human beings have, narcissists have feelings of hopelessness, inadequacy, desperation, and confusion. Feelings they cannot tolerate, nor process.
Midlife taxes narcissistic defenses, challenging aging individuals to mature. People with 'undeveloped narcissistic traits' will suffer, perhaps even experience a crisis. That doesn't mean they can't grow and develop. Heinz Kohut suggests maturation is a lifelong process developing immature aspects of ourselves. That's the current thinking about a 'normal' person's midlife transition.
Then, there's the midlife narcissist. The Tragic man. The collapsible man. The man who appeared to be a shark, suddenly turning into a jelly fish. Or the goldfish turning into a shark.
Anyone who witnessed the ‘collapsible man’ (or woman), has been stunned by allegations that we were the ones who were ‘deficient, controlling, smothering, incompetent’ or any of the traits narcissists project onto other people.
The midlife narcissist is someone who cannot swallow his pride and as a result, vomits on the person closest to him or her. That would be the partner who for years, supported them through thick-and-thin, becoming increasingly weary of the narcissist’s incessant demands. It’s not that we lack empathy or become indifferent (though some do, it depends on the relationship), we are tired. Maybe there's a furrowed brow setting off the narcissist's crisis---maybe our individuation triggers their fears of abandonment or their envy. I don't know. What I do know is that partners are splattered with traits and behaviors the narcissist cannot claim as his or her own.
I started writing about narcissism on the Midlilfe Crisis forum back in 2003, after learning about a disorder called NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder). I had hoped my partner would work through his problems losing control, losing status, becoming another ordinary cog in the wheel of life; that he would eventually realize that escaping reality was less enjoyable than embracing it. That he would wake up one morning with a strange woman in his bed and recognize how much he loved and valued his family. That even if his wife was too weird for words, his children needed him. This did not happen. If the midlife narcissist has not shown signs of taking responsibility for behavior that hurts the people who loved and supported him for years, he likely won’t. He’s likely unable to face the destruction he caused, if he even realizes it (or is capable of bearing the truth long enough to see that HE is his biggest problem. Not the role he played in the family, nor the prickly personalities of family members).
It is never easy to tolerate the Walk of Shame when a person makes a mess of their lives. It’s painful processing ‘humiliation’ into ‘humility’ no matter where you are on the narcissistic continuum. If your unstable self-esteem is threatened by your mistakes and errors, self-deception may appear to be an easier way out. Instead of falling into supine reflection on human weakness, narcissists become grandiose, other-blaming and arrogant.
The ability to face disappointment and accept other people's willingness to forgive your mistakes is not something narcissists are capable of doing. Anytime we are forgiven by others, we surrender our power to BE FORGIVEN by another person holding the power To Forgive. They will or they won't---their forgiveness is not in our control. This is an untenable situation for a narcissist who must maintain the perception of superiority, especially if he or she sees other people as inferiors. Imagine a peon forgiving The King? Instead of appreciating someone's willingness to even consider forgiveness (which may be a long term process), the narcissist projects fault and blame others and thus, exculpating himself from guilt and remorse. What's to forgive? His malicious wife intentionally bought the wrong type of lettuce for gawd's sake what else can a man do but seek comfort from the Ms. Radicchio?
The midlife crisis with all the accompanying destruction people do to their lives when the Inner Child (or Inner Adolescent) is given free reign to act impulsively, selfishly and without consideration for others, is very hard to resolve. Depending on the degree of narcissism, the person-having-a-midlife-crisis may NOT be able to face themselves after losing ‘face’ in their community.
It takes a strong foundation of self and self-worth to admit to having harmed people you cared about because you were behaving like an petulant child. Still, people are able to reconcile wounded relationships--both parties willing. My assumption was that everyone would do whatever they must to clean up the messes they made at midlife when our human limitations stick out like sore thumbs and mortality becomes a certainty. I was wrong.
A narcissistic injury may precede the midlife narcissist’s decompensation
My partner had suffered a major insult at work. His Star Status was sullied; any idea that he would be the next CEO was shattered. His impulsivity had undermined his career plans because finally, people were unwilling to excuse his rash behavior. As others have also mentioned, my spouse was involved in a sexual harassment suit which never went anywhere. Still, the threat was there as a constant reminder of his limitations. Those darn corporations! Imagine not being able to pat your secretary's ass!
The biggest threat though, was the damage his behavior did to his family's perceptions of him as a New-Age Fabulous Man who really ‘got’ women’s predicament in the workplace.
After his ‘breakdown’ at work, verbally abusing his boss (whoa…not a great career move, there buddy!), he lost his position in the company and was granted paid leave to get himself together. Now wouldn’t you think an out-of-control person would avail themselves of psychotherapy? Wouldn’t you think a chagrined person would be grateful to a company that didn’t just FIRE his arse, but valued him enough to provide support and time while he got himself back together?
That’s not what happened, however. He was not grateful. He was resentful. I don’t believe he had the capacity to process humiliation into humility. His anger increased, becoming a frightening rage at times, so furious was he at institutions; i.e.: corporations, religions, even marriage. I tried my best to encourage him to get professional help rather than rely on me. But he wouldn’t. He refused. He preferred sitting by a stream and contemplating like Siddhartha in spandex. As if the thinking that got him in this mess would get him out of the mess.
He became more and more depressed, that much was obvious and his personality changed. He was distant and desperate, the sense of ‘rage’ beneath his smile. I was unprepared for what was to come later: I became the mother of all evils, the woman he feared would kill him, the person he saw as manipulative, hateful, and abusive. Which is preposterous. His allegations were so preposterous in fact, they kept me from internalizing his projections.
My concern for people writing about the midlife crisis is minimizing the danger of a partner who flips reality backwards and sees other people as ‘threats’ to the narcissist’s survival. For a narcissist you see, the False Self is the only self they know. When the False Self is exposed (decompensation of defensive mechanisms), it is life-threatening to a narcissist. If there is no False Self, there is no one inside…just a big dark abyss of bottomless rage and fear. He is not a superior being. Just an ordinary maN without his mask.
So when a partner confronts the midlife narcissist’s failures, she might as well be pointing a machine gun in his face. That is how he perceives his loss of ‘status’ in her eyes. It IS life-threatening to him.
Forgiveness? Yea, you are likely willing to forgive. Understanding? Yea, you are likely to understand. But narcissists need to maintain control and superiority, so your forgiveness and understanding are threats to their dominance. I remember saying to my husband, “Whatever has passed, has passed. I forgive you.” And instead of tears and gratitude he ranted, “Forgive me? I should be forgiving YOU. And I don’t!”
Bizarre. Reality turned backwards. Sadly, the people who are closest to the narcissist are the ones they hurt, destroying the relationship permanently. Would that they destroyed the False Self instead.
-
A lot of this was something I could identify closely with. I do believe when you finally zero in on what you may really be dealing with it becomes easier to LET GO.
This is no "phase" or crisis he's going through. This is him at his deepest darkest abyss.
He has annihilated any possible relationship with me that's for sure. I have no need, want, or desire for someone like this in my life.
-
This is a fascinating article. Not totally related to MLC for most people here. But, my personal view is that MLC is personality disorder decompensation. And I have a friend who has given me an extreme interest in autism. The rate of divorce in couples with autistics is somewhat high, and part of me now wonders how much of that has to do with a possible inability to empathize and be there for their kids...
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/resolution-not-conflict/201406/do-you-think-narcissism-autistic-spectrum-disorder
-
Hi LL!! I had noticed this trend as well both here and in my practice. Recent research suggests that autism passes down from the mother in most cases, and an overwhelming number of male LBSes I know have autistic children so there MAY be some connection. I'll read through the article when I get home as I don't have time to digest it at work here, but thanks for posting this!
-
Thundarr, you may be able to confirm this, but I work with the eduction department and often come across teachers who "behave in appropriately" and one of the senior people I work with described more than just a few of them as being "on the spectrum". Most of the time it was relationship issues with both staff and children.
I would bet my bottom that my h is somewhere on that spectrum.
Sd
X
-
Sorry - not convinced by that article at all.
There may be similarities and indeed all personalities have to be on a spectrum.
However I currently teach a couple of students who have aspergers and that is demonstrated in very different ways. I have taught others all of whom were very different in their manifestations.
I have a friend whose son is so autistic that she had to put him into residential care where he now lives.
I have a second friend whose son has been recently diagnosed and her life turned upside down and her son very different from the first.
I think it rather sweeping to make the narcisstic/autistic connection definitive although I agree that there are traits that would seem similar and lie on the personality "spectrum" but next to a whole host of others.
Just my personal opinion and observations based on 30 yrs teaching
-
Narcissism as the last stop on the train line to the autistic spectrum disorders.
Many spouses in my couples therapy practice express relief when they hear my speculation that narcissism may be a milder version of what with increased severity would become Aspergers--and with even more self-absorption and difficulty taking in others’ perspectives would be labeled autism.
If narcissistic personality disorder tendencies stem from neuro-biological deficits and/or brain anomalies that cause difficulties with empathy, then it becomes easier to empathize with rather than become angry at an emotionally-deaf loved one.
That is a fascinating theory.
It will be interesting to see if this ever becomes proven with further research/scanning etc.
With scans showing differences in the brain of people with autism, aspergers, narcissistic personality disorder and other personality disorders etc - it makes sense that they will start linking the findings if there are links to be made.
-
How can autism pass down from the mother when there are so many MORE male autistics than female? Is it like baldness where you get the tendency from your mother, but the pattern from your father, or like hemophilia, that is y triggered?
I agree kikki, it is so fascinating because the only thing I KNOW, very clearly is that something in my ex is broken. I will likely never know if it was always broken, or if it broke at midlife, but people who love don't do what he did. And he, like so many others kept up the facade of "good guy" for a long time, until midlife stress of kids and work and parents and illness and death.
Autistics frequently have shark eyes, too. When they go to their safe place, whatever that is, where others are not invited, when they are stressed. And his work is VERY attractive to a mild autistic personality--solitary and detailed. Who knows, I just thought it was interesting, and maybe it makes me have more compassion for him... Love and light, ll
-
the only thing I KNOW, very clearly is that something in my ex is broken. I will likely never know if it was always broken, or if it broke at midlife, but people who love don't do what he did. And he, like so many others kept up the facade of "good guy" for a long time, until midlife stress of kids and work and parents and illness and death.
Knowing what I know now of my xW, I tend towards it being a "facade." Something was always broken.
-
Honour, totally agree, facade it was for my h too and always broken.
Sd
X
-
Bumping this thread.
I am starting to accept that I am dealing with a narcissist ??? The more I step back the more clearly I see the signs that I overlooked in the earlier days of my realtionship. I understand that the crisis brings out narcissistic traits and if the MLCer has these traits prior to MLC they are even worse. I have been struggling with this for the last year - is H or isn't H? I think that I haven't been able to accept that he 'is' because of how it makes me feel about myself :-\ This is part of my growth - acceptance of things that I find difficult. I have a lot of work to do on myself before I am strong enough to make the necessary decisions.
-
Searching4Answers, interesting you bumped this today:):)
not my H, we are reconciling, BUT a very dear friend of mine, in fact one of my closes is filing for divorce. She "kept me upright" during most of the dark tunnel days!! She and this site. I have been so terribly torn because of course I am against divorce, per se (you know cause I stood). Everyone can work for their marriage right???
BUT I think her H is truly a narcissist, always has been and always will be. After reading this I am a little more "settled" in her decision. I now may be able to be the support she needs. thank you :)
31andcounting
-
Funny how things show up when we need them ;)
This thread came up for me last night when I was googling 'altruistic narcissism'. I think that if I had a good relationship before all of this craziness I would be able to stand longer but when I look back I see clearly that we did not have a good relationship - it is not a relationship that I would want again ??? I think that I held on to the relationship because there is something in me that couldn't let it go - I now have to figure that out. I will continue to stand for ME and who knows maybe H will change (not holding my breath). I know that we all look for stories of successful reconciliation but I am now looking stories of successful growing. Finding out who we are is the real success story!
-
Hi
The narcissistic family was definitely and interesting read. Not sure if i can say with any certainty if this is XH's family but here is what i did observe.
1. H parents very conscious of image and did not like the idea of getting old - H also image conscious - when our business was failing he didn't want anyone to know and we continued to project this image of success.
2. Often felt that mother-in-laws life revolved around her H's every need
3. H parents one occasion would forget his birthday
4. H has two brothers - they were not close and didn't even wish each other on their birthdays
5. H was sent to boarding school when he was 13 years old but two brothers were kept at home and went to local school
6. H rarely spent school holidays at home - spent many of them at friends homes and yet H has no childhood friends
7. H's parents before we got married would ask H to invest in some part of their business they would pay him back
8. H had burning desire to please his father and make him proud
9. H felt his mother was manipulative and warned me about her
10. I never felt close to his family - they were kind enough people but i was not close to them
11. H was expected to help out his two brothers when they got into an stupid financial get rich quick scheme
12. definite favorite in the family the middle child H was eldest
Does this point to narcissistic family.
-
Taking a good look at the family helps. A psychiatrist I went to about 8 years ago due to a Chantix break pegged them right off the bat.
Narcissists...
I've read so much about this I'm getting tired of it. The peek into what goes on in their heads is pretty scary.
They objectify people..we are only extensions of them..not a separate person. Their property and in their heads always will be.
So we keep jumping through hoops trying to be "perfect" and they continue to find things wrong with us.
I damn near lost my sanity dealing with him. Nothing is ever good enough and probably won't be.
I'd rather be me. Flawed and making mistakes - being HUMAN we tend to do that.
Emotional vampires is a really fitting description for them. I've read they can never change or heal because they don't believe anything is wrong with them.
They have no empathy or feelings for anyone but themselves. SELF-PITY plays a big part in how they reel you back in.
They have no idea what a compassionate, empathetic, nurturing, caring, encouraging, supportive, loving relationship is.
All the relationship is is one way street- we may be able to give that to them but they simply are not capable of returning it.
They feed off any emotion or acknowledgement positive or negative.
The only way to recover and get healthy is to go NC. Period.
And read about healing from this kind of abuse.
We deserve better than this kind of relationship.
-
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/280718.php
This is actually funny.
-
Interesting FTT
I've been doing a lot of reading about this and I know from my experience I've been able to see someones true colors quickly when first introduced to them by saying before I leave "So nice to meet you..." And get their name wrong and you can see them try to keep a lid on it.
As far as narcissists I found they cannot stand to be wrong..have thier opinion questioned or challenged and will not tolerate any input that doesn't agree with their own. You need say very little to inflict narcissistic injury. They can fly into a rage with very little provocation. Any phrase can be interpreted as an insult with people with low self worth or self esteem.
They cannot tolerate criticism or anything they perceive as being a judgement as to how they did something.
They tend to be emotional vampires not really knowing "how" to feel they take their cues from others who are closest to them.
That's why it is important to stay away from the MLCER they will put you on an emotional roller coaster and suck you dry then spit you out when they are done. It gives them the feeling of power to do this.
They get their kicks from hurting other people. CONTROL is what they are after.
My advice? Cut the supply off ( which is us) and then do what you can to heal from this. No contact is the only way to heal and get stronger.
It's difficult to get respect from them as they have no empathy. They may only change their behavior if it can be figured out what they fear and use that.
Chances are if you have been pretty much the only one who's been there for them?..take control and go nc. BOUNDARIES are really important.
-
I've read stories about how a woman was married to a guy and they lost their daughter..she was devastated. Him?
He commented how useless she was since her daughter died.
The focus of her emotion was no longer him so he considered her useless...
These people do exist and we need to protect ourselves from them.
-
And now for something to lighten up the last post....
# What do you call a narcissist who can graciously accept criticism or blame?
Dead.
-
Adding these links from onlyjo's thread:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lindsey-ellison/the-1-secret-on-how-to-en_b_5785616.html
http://letmereach.com/2014/04/06/the-one-thing-you-need-to-know-about-narcissists/
http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/dsm-iv.html
-
This is a good site too
http://www.melanietoniaevans.com
-
I used to get her newsletters very enlighting..
-
Here is another:
http://blog.melanietoniaevans.com/the-narcissists-marriage-to-the-false-self/#utm_source=New+Life&utm_campaign=305ee0abdb-Nl_2014_Nov+13&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_005709a593-305ee0abdb-407511733
-
This is very interesting. I've often wondered how my W can stay with the OM because he seems like a narcissist to me. I see even more evidence of this after reading through this thread. I was especially interested in the link between narcissism and the autistic spectrum because OM has a son who I have been told is autistic. And while teens can sometimes be cold and cruel, his D doesn't seem to have a clue why my granddaughter gets upset when she tells her about the things she did with GD's grandma. Seems like a total lack of empathy.
-
I understand most here (before all of this happened) feel they had either the perfect loving spouse or at least thought they were happily married. Although untrue in my case FOO issues played a big part as to why I stayed.
These people have now become someone you never knew they could. I'm starting this thread to raise awareness about narcissism which seems to be the behavior they exhibit.
Found online
Narcissist's biggest fear.
What is it that makes a Narcissist feel truly uncomfortable - what is their biggest fear?
If we were to guess, what would be the first few answers that were likely to appear in our mind? Let's see: first, Narcissist craves attention therefore he must fear being left alone and ignored. Alright, this seems fitting.
Also, a Narcissist has an inflated sense of self-worth, which means he hates being treated as a common, unremarkable person as much as he loathes being put down and humiliated. This observation seems fair as well. A Narcissist, in fact, can have very many fears - big and small, all branching out of their distorted view on themselves and reality around them, the "fantastic" view that gets challenged almost at every turn. Then what might we consider to be their biggest, their ultimate fear?
After much digging into my own mind, further researching the topic and considering those who are suspected (or diagnosed) Narcissists, I had to conclude that the fear of all fears for a Narcissist is the fear of losing control.
If you have dealt with a Narcissist in the past, this may at once confirm your experience and challenge it. We do know that a Narcissist loves being in control, craves it and indeed will go to great lengths to make sure he has as much of it as possible. But can that really be IT - the ultimate, the most important factor in his life?
To illustrate why I really think so I must explain and expand the definition of the term. Of course, being in control often means having a position of power and influence over other people's feelings and behavior, and Narcissists are notorious for being very persistent in trying to gain and secure this type of control over their family and other people who are close to them. Indeed, the most egregious incidents are known to happen when the Narcissist is lead to believe he or she is losing their control of their partners.
Setting that aside for a minute however, we can consider the broader definition of control - being in control of one's own emotions, behavior - one's life. As children, Narcissists are often made to feel powerless while simultaneously put in the position where they must prove their self-worth by performing better than an average person.
This teaches them two lessons: lesson number one - your survival (because for a child approval and affection of their parent equals being able to survive) depends on how well you perform, not how you feel and only people who perform well are worthy of affection, and lesson number too - you are powerless unless you are not in full control of other people's feelings. Therefore, the power and search for control are placed externally, not internally, since controlling one's "audience's" emotions can keep one out trouble, while one's own feelings hardly matter at all.
So it is little wonder then, when a grown-up (in terms of physical form, at least) Narcissist places such great value on their ability to control other people's emotions and their actions toward the Narcissist. Because one's own feelings are rarely considered and explored, they become, by enlarge, an enigma to a Narcissists - and the further he moves away from his core, the scarier that enigma becomes. So when I say a Narcissist is most scared of losing control, I want to point out that this also means their fear of losing themselves in their own scary, uncontrollable emotions. They would much prefer to keep those locked away and would rather not open that
"Pandora's box." Hence the fixation on keeping a steady stream of external stimuli, and ever more persistent attempts to control other people's view of them in hope of bringing some sense of balance in their world.
However, there is another layer to his same fixation on control and being terrified of losing it. I would put it simply as a "fear of life". This may sound kind of absurd. But if we think about it, it is merely the extension of the same old fear of losing control.
Every truly developed, well-functioning adult knows, and has learned to deal with the reality that life is messy, unpredictable and full of surprises - in summary - it is pretty much uncontrollable. Despite your best efforts, you never really know what is around the corner - people once madly in love get divorced, babies get born and loved ones die, and there are myriads of other things that we do not control but still have to learn how to deal with.
I am convinced that the Narcissist is not truly capable of accepting this reality, and a lot of "mysterious" behavior that boggles their partner's mind can be explained by this simple fact. They are terrified of the truth - the outside world is not subject to any rational law, and therefore their life is never fully under their control. Observe anyone who you believe to be a Narcissist and I guarantee you that you will soon spot their inability to let go and let the life come to them as it will.
Possibly due to their childhood experiences, they are convinced the the world is full of danger, ready to hurt them, nothing is as it seems and that they must be alert and up in arms at all times. They can not live with the fact that they will gain some advantages, relationship, things and lose the others, as well as accept the truth that they will lose their prime physical shape, age and die some day, just like everyone else. Their building the fantastic alter ego is just an attempt to shield themselves form unsettling reality - that they are rigid, inflexible structures that are not at ease with the ever-changing unpredictable life.
All of the free-willing and smooth talking in the world can not hide away the relentless grip of control that is behind all that "charm". When they do not have anyone to control, the Narcissist are left with the cold truth: they do not know how to be at peace with themselves, their life and the fact that they do not know what is coming next. That is the most terrifying place of all.
I'd would like to conclude with this: many people ask me how to "make" a Narcissist understand what they are going through, or how to make them feel a certain way. I am guessing there are some disgruntled victims who, at least for a time, would like to see the Narcissist suffer the consequences, than at least realize the magnitude of their (N's) issues.
I say, if you want a Narcissist to finally fully face the enormity of their problem - do not try and "make" them feel a certain way - just leave them alone face to face with their own reality and they will be forced to confront the beast they have been trying so hard to escape.
As for the people who suspect they may have Narcissistic traits, as hard as it may seem, allowing yourself to feel whatever it is that comes up in the moment and just breathing, observing it and letting it happen, then noticing that your fear of that process is largely unfounded is the only way that I know of for reversing the construction of the "wall" that keeps you isolated and incensed to real life.
Judging from my own experience, being brave enough to go down this road will give you new and uniquely satisfying way to feel at peace with yourself.
-
http://www.lifescript.com/well-being/articles/h/how_to_deal_with_narcissistic_behavior.aspx
-
Found online:
How to Protect Yourself from a Narcissist's Manipulation
04/29/2014
Two techniques for dealing with narcissists which people have shared with me and I have found helpful are "Medium Chill" and "Robot Mode". There is a lot of overlap in the two concepts. I present them both because most people identify more easily with one than the other. Take what you like.
Medium Chill
I cannot find a good description of Medium Chill on the web which is openly accessible. Basically, Medium Chill is a technique for dealing with narcissists. Some people advocate it for life in general. That is not my recommendation. I only recommend this as a strategy for dealing with narcissistic abuse.
Basically, Medium Chill is something you utilize to allow the narcissist's attempts to get inside your head to flow over you without effect. You want to wall off your emotional responses and protect them from manipulation. Maintain a flat expression, or perhaps even a vaguely pleasant expression and block off your emotions so they have no way of telling that they're having an effect - and chill.
The theory behind Medium Chill is that a narcissist's goal is to provoke an emotional response from you. They crave having power over you and seeing the disruption to your mind that they're able to exercise. They emotionally manipulate you to get an emotional response from you. And it doesn't matter what the emotional response is. A fight is as good as a cheer of encouragement, a screaming curse as good as a flowery compliment. They just want a reaction. They just want attention. And they do not care how much it upsets you or affects you because they have no empathy. It's all about them.
Provoking an outburst from you also allows them to write you off - to themselves and others - as the crazy one. You are the one behaving badly. All they said was... and you just went off!
However, give them no outward sign that you're affected by their manipulations and they move on to someone more easily manipulated.
Robot Mode
Robot Mode works much the same. I do not advocate the use of either method as a way of manipulating narcissists or as an offensive move, only as a defense. The best thing is to get away from them. If you can't, Robot Mode may be helpful to protect yourself.
It consists primarily of locking away your emotions and intellectualizing about what is happening between you and the narcissist - instead of feeling it. You must realize that the narcissist is reading your emotions and calculating responses based upon what they read. If you stop thinking about what your feeling and block off your emotions from the predatory narcissist, then you are free to analyze what is happening with a cool and detached mind and make better decisions about how to respond - or not to respond.
Remember, the narcissist is an emotional manipulator whose goal is to provoke you to react, or even better, overreact. Then they can derail you from the point you were trying to make, or the bad behavior which you were confronting them about, or the boundary you were trying to set. If they can provoke you to behave badly enough, they can cast you as the crazy one.
Also remember that a narcissist's emotions are very limited and very shallow. They feel no empathy and no remorse. (I have been told they only experience fear and anger. I have not seen this disproven yet.) Given that they experience no empathy and no remorse, trying to "connect" with them is futile. If someone feels no remorse and no empathy, what is there to connect with??? Because their emotions are extremely limited, or non-existent, they view people who have emotions as being "weak" and easily manipulated. They resent the fact that you feel and realize there is something missing in them because they do not. But they will never own this, nor are most of them even conscious of it themselves. This is what is happening on the subconscious level. Consciously, they just sneer at you for being so "weak" and get off on exerting their power over you by manipulating your emotions.
Also, because they experience no remorse, they are not bound by conscience, morality, ideals, principles or "doing the right thing". They are not loyal friends, lovers or parents. They are not fair bosses. The right thing for a narcissist is whatever suits them at the moment. What effect that will have on others is absolutely unimportant to the narcissist. It's all about them and what they want. How do you interact with someone like that? Robot Mode.
By putting your emotions out of reach and blocking them off you take away their ammunition against you. They are unable to "read" you. By cutting off your emotions, you are now on the same playing field with them. You can coldly calculate your next move, just as they do. You are now talking to a Robot as a Robot. Robots don't emote. They don't react. Robots don't care. Robots can't be guilted, or shamed, or bullied.
It's important to point out that Robot Mode is not about dissociation, spacing out, tuning out or "leaving the room" mentally. It's about being more present, more aware, more in the moment. You have to stay with your body and in your mind in order to protect yourself. It's about walling off your emotions so they are protected, not disconnected. It's about staying on guard. It's about putting up your defenses and protecting the sensitive, caring, empathic part of yourself the narcissist seeks to manipulate.
-
I have a question and that is: How do we differentiate between a true narcissist and a MLC narcissist, and does the latter even exist?
I'm one of the bewildered here who has considered many explanations for the radical personality change I've witnessed: affair fog, SSRI, "crisis," FOO, etc. Yet I've reached the point where the only explanation that really seems to hold is narcissism. It is an obvious "devalue and discard." No empathy or remorse, only blame.
Is there even one single case on this forum of someone coming out of this going from non-NPD to "MLC-NPD" to non-NPD? For those who have studied NPD is it even possible to have a "temporary" narcissism?
Can narcissists "hide" for a decade?
-
My ex-FIL is NPD. Even at his worst monster, and xH has a pretty bad one, it doesn't compare to what has always been my FIL. There would have been no times in your marriage you would have seen any emotion that wasn't self-serving from your H if he were NPD. I wish I could bottle it and send my FIL's essence to each of you so you could see the difference. Honestly, it was a HUGE issue in our marriage because my xH longed fro my FIL's approval, and there is NO WAY he will ever truly get it because FIL is not capable of validating anyone. I could tell stories all day that would be like MLC on crack. It is different.
I think in the window of time since BD that most of us are in now (even on the longer side, because we've been standers) it is nearly impossible to take a look back at our relationships and get a clear picture of what they were without rewriting some of it. We're just too close to it. We want to find something we missed. But I doubt most of us missed anything. Could they have been troubled people with issues? Certainly. Many of us are, too. But true NPDs are creatures like we've not known. It's abusive on a level that is not sudden and unexpected - it's something that has always been an undercurrent in the relationship. I believe this is why mental illness is normalized in xH"s family, and why MIL in particular acts like everyone needs to fall in line and accommodate it. It's all she knows how to do now. That's not us! We see this is not normal, because we've HAD normal.
That's my opinion, anyway, based on what I've seen. Reject or accept any of it that resonates.
-
Nothing much to add except to say that I agree with R2T. There's a big difference between the self-centered behavior of an MLCer or somebody who's depressed and a true NPD.
-
Hi all,
First I think you are a lot like me (Velika) one of our defense mechanism are Intellectualization. We try and try to find "answers", are these "bat-sh*t-crazy-mlc'r" Npd/Depressed/bipolar/borderline/antisocial or what the h*ll is going on? Some way thinking the answer will give us closure perhaps?
I'm educated in economics. 1+1 =2 not 1 not 3 not 9 or anything else! 8) The more I study these mental health disorders, the more complex it gets. They all, more or less, carry the same symptoms and the answer is like 1+1 = 12 or 4 or 6 or 8
After almost 2 years from BD, I'm still there. Was/is my husband Npd? is he depressed? What do I know? I know he is; disrespectful for others, irresponsible, dishonest, shows hostility, being manipulative and/or greedy, callousness, has a huge desire for sex, harmful and impulsiveness. He uses all of the "primitive defense mechanisms" psychcentral.com/lib/15-common-defense-mechanisms/?all=1
This behavior is something almost all of us have experienced from our Hs and Ws, isn't it? It's also the same behavior I've seen in different males close to me, my dad, my brother, my BIL to name a few (my BIL only one I know for sure was cheating on his wife) What causes this? Are they all malignant npd's? I don't think so. Self centered? Yes maybe. My dad got worse and worse, I think OR maybe as you grow older you recognize the bad behavior more and more. 20 years ago my dad spent time in jail for shooting at his gf, when she wanted to leave him after 2 years. Now I've started to think how his letter to me during this time, was nothing but pity parties letter, all the blame was put on her for leaving him. Talk about huge abandonment issues! The few times I met him after my mum and him split up he "played" me (my brothers also) on these; FOG, Fear, obligation and guilt. Everytime, everything he wanted. I can see the same pattern in my mum now. My SIL sees the same pattern in my BIL. Are they npd's, I don't know?
The only thing I do know is; I'm not putting up with more abuse. I have a value. I was not good at setting boundaries (due to my upbringing) but now I'm trying to learn how to do this. The impact on me/you is not worth getting abused, is it. As hard as it is, for me much much harder to distance myself from xh than from my dad, mentally (30 something years are more than 16 years perhaps) but I do not want to be in a situation where I can not be safe. My safety, your safety, my kids, your kids comes first, no matter if they are npd's/depressed/bipolar/addiction etc. For now, they have shown you they are not trustworthy.
Last, we can only guess, even if we are skilled psychologists (I'm not) they still just can guess. Only if they search therapy and get diagnosed, you will have the correct answer. Maybe when they hit rock bottom, maybe never. I also think we LBSs "suffers" a lot from cognitive dissonance from the mental stress. Cognitive dissonance is the discomfort experienced by an individual who holds two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values at the same time, ideas or values, or is confronted by new information that conflicts with existing beliefs, ideas, or values. We all have lived with our H/W and seen one side of them now they are showing another side of them and this is stressful holding these 2 total different sides of them + we don't want to accept that we in some sense was "wrong" about them (we want to see them as 100% good people, like we did)
I'm rambling a lot and I don't know if some makes sense to someone but trust me Velika, in 2 years this has been o my mind almost every waking hour. And now, sometimes, small glimpse of me knowing I can't fix this, I should not fix this. I should, we should only take care of our self and our kids for the moment. For the moment you and I can only be the best person you and I want to be, your values, your ethics/moral etc.
Hugs
-
You make sense to me Passi
I think the most shocking thing I read when I understood what I was dealing with was they can not change or heal because they do not see an issue with how they think, what they say, or their behavior. And you would think as they got older they may mellow and mature. They do not. They only get worse.
I wouldn't have understood this if I hadn't been pretty much forced to have contact with my mother. She got worse as she got older.
And I'm with you- I'm not putting up with anymore abuse. Safety is the most important thing.
-
Is there even one single case on this forum of someone coming out of this going from non-NPD to "MLC-NPD" to non-NPD? For those who have studied NPD is it even possible to have a "temporary" narcissism?
Can narcissists "hide" for a decade?
Velika, you had a good question but I don't think you're going to get an answer to that one? So far I've not seen temporary Narcissism and back to normal yet. Can they hide for decades? I've asked myself the same question about H. The problem with some narcs is that they wear a mask and appear to be very caring people for a long time. Once in a while the red flags are present but not so obvious to make too much of a fuss about them. I don't think that MLC should not transform people. I can understand the need to escape and the rebellion like a teen, I had my own MLC, but I don't understand cruelty, total discard, abuse, cheating, lying, deceiving and showing no remorse or empathy for the pain caused the LBS or children.
After 3 yrs of going through this hell, I still don't understand what MLC is. Is it even a true condition? It doesn't make sense to me that a person can do a 180 in personality like these spouses do.
I thought H was temporarily insane but the temporary has now turned into years of total disregard for my safety and my life....as if I didn't even exist. That's not even human... SW :-*
-
Just wanted to say thanks for these articles on npd. My h isn't one but my mother is textbook. I'm sorry it took me almost 50 yrs to understand her callous, shrewish, hateful ways. I have extremely low contact w/ her & it would really be fine w/ me to have nc at all.
-
I'm bumping this up because I've realized that my H is unhealthily narcissistic, and as I've been reading about the topic, I thought I'd share my thoughts.
First, according to the research of Dr Craig Malkin, there are different types of narcissism (echoism, healthy and unhealthy narcissism) and different degrees of each.
Not all narcissists are malevolent, predatory and cruel. Not all narcissists are extrovert braggers. My H isn't, which is why it's taken me so long to come to the conclusion that he is, actually, unhealthily narcissistic. He's a covert, introverted narcissist, outwardly the perfect H, a perfect professional. He's also (mostly) a good father, apart from incidents of pushing his children to an up achievable perfection, and dismissing their points of view.
In general, except at MLC, he's not a liar either. He's mildly abusive, emotionally, not physically.
Narcissists don't always have high self esteem. In general, they only appear to be confident to hide inner inadequacies. When they are given a lie detector test, confidence falls away.
What is a narcissist? According to Dr Craig, it's "an addiction to feeling special. It is an attempt to cope with the fear of depending on others in healthy ways. There’s lots of ways to cope with that"
They tend to observe (judgmentally) rather than act, and listen (half-heartedly) rather than speak.
Can show Withdrawn self-centeredness
Lack of Empathy
Passive-Aggressiveness
Responds with sullen withdrawal (flight rather than fight).
Think no-one else is so hard-working, so perfectionist, so insightful... so unique no one understands them
Work, films, even games take the place of meaningful relationships
And this underlying NPD leads to crisis, as relationships become threatening to them and fail to give them what they need, because they just can't handle true intimacy, negotiation, and interest in another person.
My H, at midlife, told me he needed to see the distance he needed to have from me.
I understand it now in a way I didn't understand in the past.
I've sent off for Dr Malkin's "Rethinking Narcissism" to see if his suggestions for dealing with narcissists in our lives will be any help in my M.
Some narcissists may be able to change, but our way of dealing with them is up to us.
See https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/romance-redux/201309/can-narcissists-change (https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/romance-redux/201309/can-narcissists-change)
My personal stuff is on my sitch. http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=7972.0 (http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=7972.0)
-
From what I have read..NPDs tend to see emotional intimacy as a threat.
As if they communicate what might be a problem or possible weakness or some kind of emotion it will be used againest them. They don't see even tough times as a way for people to form a closer emotional attachment.
To them relatioships turn into competitions.And the cornerstone is control. They need to win whatever the cost.
And the only way for an emotionally healthy, sane person to win is not play.
-
There are narcissists to avoid, at all costs.
The point is, they are on a spectrum. They are all around us, and sometimes we can deal with them. See these:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/fulfillment-any-age/201601/9-myths-about-narcissism-almost-everyone-believes (https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/fulfillment-any-age/201601/9-myths-about-narcissism-almost-everyone-believes)
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/romance-redux/201601/the-5-most-dangerous-myths-about-narcissism-part-1 (https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/romance-redux/201601/the-5-most-dangerous-myths-about-narcissism-part-1)
-
MLCers all of them become narcissists in crisis. So, he not necessary should be narcissist whole life. In fact each of us going trough narcissistic phases during life.
-
MLCers all of them become narcissists in crisis. So, he not necessary should be narcissist whole life. In fact each of us going trough narcissistic phases during life.
Yes, they seem to. But not everyone has a crisis, and it's not all about midlife.
Some of our spouses have a crisis because they have some sort of personality disorder, including narcissism. This can be mild or serious.
If the personality disorder is extreme, it would be better to leave the relationship. If it's milder, there's a chance that we can handle them, but need to do it the right way. That's my current mission... How to handle them?
My H is no longer in the depth of his crisis, but in some sense he is in crisis with life. His crisis was 8 years ago, and he's been back for years. I've realised that elements I tolerated before were signs of his narcissistic self-protection. I thought it was something else; introversion, work stress, etc.
That's the thing about MLC; we face ourselves in this, and realise things we hadn't realised before. H has been a difficult person for many years, and when he was grossly unfair, when he wouldn't listen to my side, when he criticised non stop, when he avoided intimacy, I tried talking, but when that failed, and he persisted in his criticisms/egocentric behaviour, I lost my temper and yelled at him. He was never able to work things out, not the next day when things were cooler, or any time. In fact what my yelling did was to make him withdraw more.
Not that I was wrong to yell... He'd always provoked me beyond what was tolerable by then... But it wasn't the way to help him understand and build intimacy.
I think he cracked under the strain of many things at midlife; overwork (his refuge), the cracks in his ability to deal with intimacy, burnout, disappointment with work and life, and feeling trapped. The build up to it was when he had to face his father's death all over again because of some media incident.
During midlife he kept saying he needed to work out what distance to have from me. Post midlife, he withdrew, but now that he's not so withdrawn, his narcissism, as mild as it is, is more obvious.
He's not a big manipulator, not as critical as he one else was, but he has to maintain his self image as one who's (quietly) superior. No one else is able to give an opinion on anything he always knows better, and will silence dissenting voices. His armoury is the fact that he reads so much, works so hard, and follows so many news programmes, that he has a pretty good insight into many things. He avoids intimacy of any sort, living just side by side with me, without much empathy, selfishly and aloof from the world.
The point of putting it here and bumping up this thread is that I'm sure he's not the only one. Several LBS have reported realising that their spouse has some underlying PD which they'd sort of ignored until ML. Some have realised that their wasn't a R worth saving.
The point is that in these cases, the underlying PD causes the MLC, and the PD becomes much worse, much more obvious, as if the mask has finally slipped.
We have to realise what role we play as foils to their PD, and change our behaviour, mostly to be more healthy in ourselves but also to make the relationship functional.
This only works in some cases. It's important to realise that PDs, and certainly narcissism, are on a spectrum. Spouses with extreme versions should be avoided!
-
The point of putting it here and bumping up this thread is that I'm sure he's not the only one. Several LBS have reported realising that their spouse has some underlying PD which they'd sort of ignored until ML. Some have realised that their wasn't a R worth saving.
The point is that in these cases, the underlying PD causes the MLC, and the PD becomes much worse, much more obvious, as if the mask has finally slipped.
We have to realise what role we play as foils to their PD, and change our behaviour, mostly to be more healthy in ourselves but also to make the relationship functional.
This only works in some cases. It's important to realise that PDs, and certainly narcissism, are on a spectrum. Spouses with extreme versions should be avoided!
I understand, and I agree with You that all of them have some PD ingredients before they hit the crisis, but difference between them and maladaptive PD people is that maladaptive ones could not sustain in long therm relationship as our MLCers does ! Also our MLCers aren't maladaptive at all before crisis.
-
A narcissist in a MLC is about as bad as it gets. Reflecting back on the long term relationship I was in I can see it very clearly now. It was always there - MLC magnified it.
If I started with stories of the ex's behavior and entitled attitude and selfishness along with bouts of rage in the 28 years I was involved with him today? I might be able to finish it by next year sometime. I'd rather not keep him in my head that long.
And if they happen to latch onto someone who's FOO issues match their pathology? A extremely unhealthy abusive relationship can go on for a very very long time.
-
A narcissist in a MLC is about as bad as it gets. Reflecting back on the long term relationship I was in I can see it very clearly now. It was always there - MLC magnified it.
If I started with stories of the ex's behavior and entitled attitude and selfishness along with bouts of rage in the 28 years I was involved with him today? I might be able to finish it by next year sometime. I'd rather not keep him in my head that long.
And if they happen to latch onto someone who's FOO issues match their pathology? A extremely unhealthy abusive relationship can go on for a very very long time.
This is exactly my situation too.
I understand, and I agree with You that all of them have some PD ingredients before they hit the crisis, but difference between them and maladaptive PD people is that maladaptive ones could not sustain in long therm relationship as our MLCers does ! Also our MLCers aren't maladaptive at all before crisis.
I disagree Albatross...
I think that they can be in long term relationships because the LBS is the one sustaining the relationship and the MLCer didn't have to do any of the work so they do stay around long term.
-
My 1st H was a true narcissist. The whole world revolves around them 24/7.
They are just born with no conscience what to ever.
-
You got it Searching4Answers.
And this is just how messed up it got:
I thought HE was the one holding things together it was me. It was me!
He did tell me the ONLY thing I meant to him was sex..now that I can believe.
-
I understand, and I agree with You that all of them have some PD ingredients before they hit the crisis, but difference between them and maladaptive PD people is that maladaptive ones could not sustain in long therm relationship as our MLCers does ! Also our MLCers aren't maladaptive at all before crisis.
I disagree Albatross...
I think that they can be in long term relationships because the LBS is the one sustaining the relationship and the MLCer didn't have to do any of the work so they do stay around long term.
Definition of PD people is that they cannot be in long term relationships. Even in case that You are codependent, even in case that You are PD person (in such a case relationship would fall faster). Only when PD person can be in long therm relationship is true narcissist with inverted narcissist.
Seems to me like You ladies rewrite some history of Yours relationship... who can blame You for that ? :) MLC is painful and long process for both MLCer and LBS.
-
You know Albatross I've thought about that..rewriting the history I had with the ex. Maybe I'm the one with the MLC ???
And I may be doing that. If I am it's protecting me from getting involved with him again..or even to talk to him.
The first year we lived together was the best.
I lost trust in him when (as for the second time he stole things)..I thought he'll grow out of that. You know what? He never did. Even when I went back we went out shopping together and he stole something else. His excuse? "I don't know what came over me" COME ON Are you kidding me??
I had him pegged from the beginning right after we first met. He drove me nuts until I told him I'd give a relationship with him a shot.
I made excuses for him. I let a lot of things slide.Enabled him. I verbally fought with him for a very long time. Guess what? Nothing got resolved. HE would not LISTEN to me. I was STUPIDLY thinking he would MATURE and then he may develop some character or at least some kind of thought for someone else..
As for the physical abuse and control? It only got worse. Not only with me he also choked his supervisor at work and lost his job.
EVEN THEN I said well we'll just go off in another direction. The family was intact. There was some savings the house was paid off..he and I could figure it out. He's creative and can build things. There are things to sell. He isn't stupid! That's another thing that makes this so infuriating!
I was looking for a job since he could no longer get one with an incident of violence in the workplace. Was that my fault?? Could I have stopped that?
Oh no that wasn't enough stress and drama. He had to get involved with another woman. Get a divorce and drive me nuts and not leave me alone to heal. I get to stand by and watch as he rips my children's hearts out. Does that sound like fun??
So like an idiot I went back.Then after that? He had to be a rock star.
Now Albatross do you want me to admit to being a narcissist?? NO PROBLEM. I consider my self somewhat of one now since I have some of my self esteem and self respect back after dealing with him. I deserve to be treated better than I was in that relationship .
Every year on our anniversary he would ask me " How many years have we been married?" No card, no Happy Anniversary, no thought, no anything. That went on for years.Maybe he and I would go out with friends for dinner. I think there may have been 2 or three he might have gotten me something. My birthday..nothing and nothing at Christmas ...for years.
Anytime I needed him he bailed on me. When I was physically ill or anything struggling emotionally it was run for the door. And that was for the entire relationship! Oops I forgot..I did have a cold one time and he made me a grilled cheese sandwich ONCE. What a prince!
At one family vacation he drove 84 miles an hour in the car HIS WHOLE FAMILY IS IN THE CAR! That includes his mother. Why did he do it?..you ready for this? He was pissed at me! Why would anyone risk the lives of at the very least their own children to do that?
There was a lot more bad than good. And whatever good he said or did was out weighted by all the lousy times there were. And I'm glad to be rid of him.
I'm not an angel nor am I perfect and thank GOD for that. I have taken the focus OFF him and put it on me for a switch.
-
No Albatross,
In my case I didn't rewrite history. I'm talking about my 1st X, not my present X.
My 1st X was 19 when we got married, was shy and quiet, but when he hit his 20's he changed a lot.
Became mean and selfish. His kids were only possession to him, as was I. He stole from his work because he felt entitled, he lied to everyone, became a womanizer with not so much as a guilt on his head.
He used everyone he needed something from, even his parents and never apologized for anyone for anything.
I stayed with him for 18 years (Catholic, you know ::)) But he was a very sick man.
My 2nd H was a wonderful man, and still is. If I said he was awful, THAT would be rewriting, :)
-
Interesting thread, I came to this site funny enough from a thread else where on Narcissistic signs.
From BD I was subjected to simply bizarre behaviour that had me going WTF! W was ably assisted by FIL through the whole thing as they blame shifted, gas lighted projected and showed a lack of anything resembling empathy, respect and a total absence of responsibility for actions, an abusive pattern directed at me that kept repeating, I finally figured it out after 8 months!
I was looking for answers because I could not comprehend what was going on like most of us I guess.
I have read a lot of comments on this thread about could be this could be that, my clarity came from a friend who I talked to this about and he gave me this wisdom, "She could be to be fair mate but it doesn't really matter if she is or she isn't, it is simply A$$ hole behaviour !"
Fair point I think :)
-
Definition of PD people is that they cannot be in long term relationships. Even in case that You are codependent, even in case that You are PD person (in such a case relationship would fall faster). Only when PD person can be in long therm relationship is true narcissist with inverted narcissist.
Seems to me like You ladies rewrite some history of Yours relationship... who can blame You for that ? :) MLC is painful and long process for both MLCer and LBS.
I don't look at PD as black or white - narcissism is a spectrum. We are all narcissistic by nature - some have healthy levels, others unhealthy levels and then those that are full NPD.
There are many PD people that have been in long term relationships - the dynamics of each relationship are unique. My ex definitely has strong narcissistic traits - whether he has a PD or not, I am not a psychologist and I honestly don't care either way. He is not a healthy person and I choose not to have him in my life.
I had blinders on for many, many years - his family saw him for what he was but I did not. When I brought things up the family was well aware of his behavior - it was a new revelation to me! My point being is that it was hidden - I chose not see it.
-
Head Spinner..pretty much the same thing here only the ex had his mother close by who enabled his behavior. That was post divorce when I went back I could see it. And her grand daughter (who doesn't live around here) made the comment to me "Grandma is a huge enabler".
I got triangulated and I wasn't going to put up with being yelled at for a second time by his mother. So I stopped talking to her after she did it the second time.Then I told her off but good. I guess that didn't go over too well. The ex even admitted he had never heard his mother be so mean to somebody.
Then the ex got my oldest daughter involved and the stress level for me went through the roof. Everybody was trying to control me. I had no problem with everybody have their own relationships with each other..they just kept trying to involve me and the games were simply too much.
I started grieving as I could see no matter what I did it wasn't going to work. If I wasn't being ignored I got monstered at. When I stood up and fought back then everybody flipped out and labeled me crazy.
They sure didn't put the "fun" in dysfunction I can tell you that much. After a year and eight months I had had enough.
-
Wow Init,
That really describes my current situation. I get either ignored or Monstered at by W. MIL agrees with D and blames me for everything. I am the one who is sick and needs medication. I am the one who needs to change. I am always angry. Funny W always says I'm the narcissist and bipolar one.
I think the MLC can progress under normal circumstances but I believe MIL will make that impossible. She is the sole reason why I believe there is no chance here. My W will realize one day but it will be too late.
-
Its all projection Watcher.Every label they try to lay off on us belongs to them.I can say most of my behavior was in direct line with his abuse.
They attempted to take my sanity.He even called the state troopers to come get me and take me to a wellness center as my children stood and watched.
I was released 6 hours later.
He told my kids I was going to commit suicide. .which was a blatant total lie.
He had just got done throwing me on the bed and pinning me there.I was screaming "Call 911!!" in hopes that maybe the girls were in the house. He got off me and ran outside and called them on the phone.
I was in a state of shock.
I was never so happy to see troopers in my life.
-
InIt/Watcher,
Had all of that, and makes you think your going mad.. I was always aware of the broken family dynamic but never really had to engage in it because first up the In Laws were in France and then moved back to the UK but 160 miles away, so only had once in a blue moon take D down for a few days etc.
Post BD the mask was off, just appalling behaviour from them, took from Sept to Easter to figure it out and get my head straight. The next time the In Laws stepped over the line, I just buried the FIL over three emails and he scuttled off, once you know the pattern the moves are predictable and easy to spot so don't work on you in the way they did. sort of felt like taking control back.
I'm lucky both my SIL's know the abusive pattern of the FIL & Step Mother so have been very supportive of me and have also called FIL on his behaviour and won't speak to either W or In Laws whilst they are behaving in the way they are.
-
She already has called the police 4 times on me this year and has threatened countless other times. She threatened to call state police my last time there. Even MIL has been in on the act. It is an intimidation/control tactic and is another form of abuse.
At BD I developed panic attacks. My W and MIL brought me to the hospital to get evaluated. W threw a fit when we were separated and caused a scene. The nurses told me that she was the one that needed to be committed.
I have noticed that W and MIL do not like that I have a voice. Whenever I stand up for myself the drama begins. I do not trust either one and really don't know if I could ever trust my W again.
-
new thread: http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8082.0