Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Albatross on August 29, 2013, 10:04:23 AM
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Conclusion:
1. He becomes self-absorbed: It is hard to be really there for someone else when your arms are always around yourself in feelings of grandeur, heroism, self-sacrificial claims, self pity, and indignation.
2. He feeds off his partner's character and subsequently develops none of his own: When one creates in themselves a codependent inner nature they lose much of their own identity, taking on the emotions and feelings of their partner. Although a healthy amount of codependency is good for a relationship, an overly codependent person becomes a 'non-person', and teaches his partner to not recognize him, for 'he' really, truly doesn't exist! This means that, as a codependent, one loses their own identity—and without an "I"dentity you are essentially a nobody, and how can 'nobody' be anywhere, let alone in a relationship and by their wife's side? How can one love 'nobody'?
3. He unknowingly teaches his partner that everything is about 'her': Another thing a codependent person does is to teach their partner to be selfish and self-serving. Since, to a codependent person everything is about the act of doing for the other person (remember, this is his illusion), and that nothing is about them (again, his illusion), they subconsciously condition the other person to come to expect all their needs to be met by the codependent person, in as much as the codependent person, themselves, does focus on meeting all their partner's needs—but carrying resentment about it. They subconsciously train their partner's to become selfish, expectant, and self-gratifying.
On the flipside of that, when the wife is codependent she spends an excessive amount of time feeling like her actions aren't appreciated, that she is unnoticed and unacknowledged, and that she is sacrificing herself for her husband and family and not being appreciated or acknowledged for it in return. When she feels she is not getting the appreciation at home that she feels she deserves, she becomes more vulnerable to an affair. She may mistakenly believe that only another lover will understand her and appreciate her and all that she does. You can spend years trying to make a codependent person feel appreciated and loved. However, it's like filling a bucket with holes in the bottom. Codependents have this empty hole that only they can fill up. Sometimes you may be able to get it a quarter full, or even halfway full, but no matter how much you put in this bucket, it keeps falling right out the bottom.
To sum it up, a codependent person unknowingly pushes their spouse into the arms of another, AND a codependent person, themselves, will willingly rush into the arms of another when they feel lonely, unappreciated, and not respected in their home life.
Read more about:
http://bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a113.htm
Reading this, many PD are codependent. Also Codependency "per se" is not PD, but is serious issue about IDENTITY. So, I can bet that majority MLC-ers are Codependent.
My MLC-er is conflict avoider and idealist, also codependent. They simply crumble in middle age.
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Read this before and I think the link is on the links/articles thread - if not, can you pop it on there? Ta but it is a great article and so describes my H and his OW.
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Characteristics of Codependency
Denial Patterns:
I have difficulty identifying what I am feeling.
I minimize, alter or deny how I truly feel.
I perceive myself as completely unselfish and dedicated to the wellbeing of others.
Low Self Esteem Patterns:
I have difficulty making decisions.
I judge everything I think, say or do harshly, as never "good enough."
I am embarrassed to receive recognition and praise or gifts.
I do not ask others to meet my needs or desires
I value others' approval of my thinking, feelings and behavior over my own.
I do not perceive myself as a lovable or worthwhile person.
Compliance Patterns:
I compromise my own values and integrity to avoid rejection or others' anger.
I am very sensitive to how others are feeling and feel the same.
I am extremely loyal, remaining in harmful situations too long.
I value others' opinions and feelings more than my own and am afraid to express differing opinions and feelings of my own.
I put aside my own interests and hobbies in order to do what others want.
I accept sex when I want love.
Control Patterns:
I believe most other people are incapable of taking care of themselves.
I attempt to convince others of what they "should" think and how they "truly" feel.
I become resentful when others will not let me help them.
I freely offer others advice and directions without being asked.
I lavish gifts and favors on those I care about.
I use sex to gain approval and acceptance.
I have to be "needed" in order to have a relationship with others.
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Co-dependence was first described as a problem observed in children of alcoholics, who developed distinctive patterns of denial, shame, avoidance, lack of boundaries, low self-worth and excessive sensitivity to the needs of others in an attempt to compensate for their parents' disorders. These characteristics often carry over into adulthood and s-called "adult children" often find themselves in patterns of unstable social relationships.The terms "codependent" and "dysfunctional " originally referred to families specifically affected by alcoholism. However, these terms have been popularly generalized to include any household situation involving a neglectful or abusive family member. Therefore, codependency often describes the characteristics of family members, spouses and partners of people who suffer from personality disorders and other mental illnesses.
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Adult Children: -
- guess at what normal is.
- have difficulty in following a project through from beginning to end.
- lie when it would be just as easy to tell the truth.
- judge themselves without mercy.
- have difficulty having fun.
- take themselves very seriously.
- have difficulty with intimate relationships.
- overreact to changes over which they have no control.
- constantly seek approval and affirmation.
- feel that they are different from other people.
- are either super responsible or super irresponsible.
- are extremely loyal, even in the face of evidence that loyalty is undeserved.
- tend to lock themselves into a course of action without giving serious consideration to alternative behaviors or possible consequences. This impulsivity leads to confusion, self-loathing, and loss of control of their environment. As a result, they spend tremendous amounts of time cleaning up the mess.
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Going from one extreme to the other. Sometimes an individual can, in attempts to recover from codependency, go from being overly passive or overly giving to being overly aggressive or excessively selfish. Many therapists maintain that finding a balance through healthy assertiveness (which leaves room for being a caring person and also engaging in healthy caring behavior) is true recovery from codependency and that becoming extremely selfish, a bully, or an otherwise conflict-addicted person is not.
Victim mentality. According to this perspective, developing a permanent stance of being a victim (having a "victim mentality") would also not constitute true recovery from codependency and could be another example of going from one extreme to another. A victim mentality could also be seen as a part of one's original state of codependency (lack of empowerment causing one to feel like the "subject" of events rather than being an empowered actor). Someone truly recovered from codependency would feel empowered and like an author of their life and actions rather than being at the mercy of outside forces. A victim mentality may also occur in combination with passive–aggressive control issues. From the perspective of moving beyond victim-hood, the capacity to forgive and let go (with exception of cases of very severe abuse) could also be signs of real recovery from codependency, but the willingness to endure further abuse would not.
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Oh wow! I believe that this entire page describes my h to a T.
One query, does this describe the clingers the most? My h is clinger extraordinaire and he epitomises all that these articles describe.
Sd
X
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I could see a lot of the old me and the old H in those articles. Urgh.
I think I have come out the other side, will my MLC'er do, too?
I used to be very insecure, have low self esteem, needy, clingy. A year post BD and I cannot see the new me in those articles.
I am feeling great relief in that knowledge!!
I have become independent, confident, I fulfil my own needs (and that feels even better than when it comes from an external source), I now like my own company and always keep myself occupied with constructive projects.
I speak to people on the street and shops. In fact something occurred to me today: A lot of people speak to me now. I have realised that my H was quite controlling in the way that he seems to always be the 'front man'. He spoke to people and I just used to stand there.
I couldn't have achieved all this without this forum and all the advice and thought provoking statements from the more experienced LBS and all the support and FREE information.
I am glad somebody else is doing all the homework ;) Thanks, Albatros for this thread.
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Booboo I can relate a lot to your post. I'm not the same person (I'm 15 months post BD) I struggled with the codependency thing because I've always considered myself a strong person. But somewhere along the way everything became about him. I remember always thinking 'I'm just Mr JB's wife. no-one really sees me. only him'
Horrible hey? I realized that the more codependent I became the more it fed his narcissism. Oh man, if only I knew then what I know now! But that's just the point isn't it?? We're all on our own journey and learning many wonderful things about ourselves along the way. I just wish it didn't have to be so damn painful!
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Our spouses will hit MLC no matter how we was.
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And everyone does get to mid-life; but some experience a transition instead of a crisis.
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This describes my. MLCer to a T as well. Avoidant Personality Disordered individuals are also prone to codependency ..... And I suppose MLC.
Should that be the case, it's a disorder, things don't change by themselves. They come out of MLC but they don't come out of a disorder by themselves.
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I could see a lot of the old me and the old H in those articles. Urgh.
I think I have come out the other side, will my MLC'er do, too?
I used to be very insecure, have low self esteem, needy, clingy. A year post BD and I cannot see the new me in those articles.
I am feeling great relief in that knowledge!!
I have become independent, confident, I fulfil my own needs (and that feels even better than when it comes from an external source), I now like my own company and always keep myself occupied with constructive projects.
I speak to people on the street and shops. In fact something occurred to me today: A lot of people speak to me now. I have realised that my H was quite controlling in the way that he seems to always be the 'front man'. He spoke to people and I just used to stand there.
I couldn't have achieved all this without this forum and all the advice and thought provoking statements from the more experienced LBS and all the support and FREE information.
I am glad somebody else is doing all the homework ;) Thanks, Albatros for this thread.
Booboo this is me! So very well described. I hated being alone, I had a fear of loneliness. Now I enjoy my own company and love love to read. I was always the one doing the mundane housework and baby care whilst h read and thought, taking walks to think through an idea! I became resentful of this. Since he left I have space and time to think for myself, to read and run and swim and choose! It's great. My h was always the one who talked, I deferred to him so much because I saw him as more intelligent. But I see now he isn't, he is just good at retaining information from books and regurgitate it!
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I too can see H in all of the above. I too was codependent but have worked hard on this aspect of myself and in the year post bd, have made big changes in myself. I hope when H comes out of MLC, he can begin to get a grip on his codependency, he is also an adult child of an alchoholic.
Thanks so much for this Albatross!
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From the symptoms (codependent) list above.
I have problem of ' Giving free advice without being asked". and I am working on it. In fact I have made significant progress. No longer I give advice unless they ask it. However still make a mistake of giving more than what they have asked. Work in progress.
My MLCer.. now exW, had many of the symptoms described and in extreme proportion. She did not give free advice without begin asked. In fact she did not give advice even after someone asked for it.
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HOBO1
Good to see you here after a while. I rarely come here these days. LT is down. I am doing well. Hope you are doing well. Drop a line when you have a moment. You know my email
Dr. NO (Bart from LT)
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Codependency is very intersting :)
I need to learn more about it!
31
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Codependents have this empty hole that only they can fill up. Sometimes you may be able to get it a quarter full, or even halfway full, but no matter how much you put in this bucket, it keeps falling right out the bottom.
This article describes my wife perfectly. I wish I had known all this stuff beforehand. The bolded above has described my efforts from BD until she moved out. I just wish I knew there was something wrong. I know she can only fix herself, but I still feel sad I can't help her. I feel blind and mute with my hands tied behind my back.
How was I supposed to know she resented me/us all this time? I've never felt so helpless. I just gotta keep moving on...
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I'm an adult child of an alcohlic and worked very hard at NOT being codependent.
-guess at what normal is. Yep
- have difficulty in following a project through from beginning to end Nope
- lie when it would be just as easy to tell the truth.Nope
- judge themselves without mercy.Sometimes
- have difficulty having fun.Yep.. feel like I'm doing something bad or wrong
- take themselves very seriously.Yep but still have a sense of humor about myself
- have difficulty with intimate relationships.Yep but if I had a REAL PARTNER this still wouldn't be difficult
- overreact to changes over which they have no control.Sometimes usually handle a crisis quite well. I was RAISED on DRAMA. I want no more of it now.
- constantly seek approval and affirmation.Nope
- feel that they are different from other people. Yep different NOT better
- are either super responsible or super irresponsible. Yep the first one.
- are extremely loyal, even in the face of evidence that loyalty is undeserved. Yep
- tend to lock themselves into a course of action without giving serious consideration to alternative behaviors or possible consequences. This impulsivity leads to confusion, self-loathing, and loss of control of their environment. As a result, they spend tremendous amounts of time cleaning up the mess. Nope- try to clean up everybody elses mess.
I KNOW I am codpendent we all are to a certain degree in any relationship or else we wouldn't even have FRIENDS.IMHO
It all depends on how healthy the relationship is and how two people treat each other. Once things get lopsided and off balance that's when the trouble begins.
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In every long lasting marriage is completely normal for life partners to be codependent. After so many years of love, happiness, sorrow, bad, good and everything what two people can go trough people become codependent in healthy way. After all those memories. If You for example my age 50 years and first 10 we don't even remember well only in some fragments last 40 years and 10 was teenager years which is memorable but normally we don't see self in that because we was kids, not develop as we are now in both ways physically and psychologically. What then left as US single ONE ? Only those college years before marriage, in that time we also been in quest to searching not self but life time spouse. So, we know self as one in totally fog long, long time a go... In marriage we both lost self in collective self as couple and as family all of that is perfectly normal.
When BD, LBS lost self ! Because we was all the time identified with us as couple and us as family... So, we have to discover again self... But we know self but missing huge part in it. And that is the reason why is detaching so hard. In other words we wanna part of self which gone and we feel empty. Means our MLCer push us in self rediscover... They also lost self in collective self and they unfortunately don't anymore see self in collective self.
And now You have in my case, strict example 26/30 years. So, it is obvious and normal that LBS after BD is in total mess.
Some LBS never rediscover self, some does. Some MLCers never rediscover self, some does. For successful possible reconnecting both parties should finish own journey. Means LBS own MLT and MLCer own crisis. Even after that no guarantee for reconciliation. Why ? Because we both left tunnel as different persons then been in marriage and also different then met in the first time....
Point of standing is rediscovering self having own life and wait for spouse until we wanna so.
Generally woman are more codependent in marriage then man for that exists obvious reasons.
Here in this post I am talking about normal healthy codependency not maladaptive one.
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I've done some more reading and a healthy relationship isn't considered co-dependant at all it's interdependent. Just a change of term..not what needs to be done which IS finding ourselves.
Many Mlcer's identify so closely with the LBS they really wreck themselves when the crisis hits.
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http://www.loveisrespect.org/dating-basics/healthy-relationships?gclid=CMHB8crY4roCFallOgodeDcAoA
The relationship I was in lacked a lot of the following things.
Maybe the curse of a long term relationship is co-dependency.
The relationship loses balance.
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I am co-dependent: Adult Child of Alcoholics. My H probably is, too.
A week or so ago I was turned on to the book Co-Dependent No More (M. Beattie). I had my mouth hanging open more than I care to admit. I realize how co-dependent I am/was and I believe H is even worse. But this book is helping me to break free from many of my destructive behaviors. Equally important, I recognize the strange dance that occurs in a co-dependent relationship as both parties work to maintain the status quo. I'm changing the dance steps. He can try and keep up if he wants. What matters, though, is that I now can identify how he's pushing my buttons and, thus, can react with knowledge instead of pure emotion.
And that, my friends, is extraordinarily liberating! :D
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I was just reading an article on Avoidance Personality Disorder and it fit my x to a T.
He has Social Anxiety, keeps to himself, avoids social events, has no friends, does solo activities (running, walks in the woods,etc.) and he is very co-dependant. Maybe we both are. I don't know.
His father was an abusive, alcoholic. My x ended up being an alcoholic, also. But hasn't drank now for 26 years.
I guess it makes sense he would end up going into a crisis at midlife. Seeds were planted early in his life.
I just pray he finds himself and can work this out for himself. He's a very good person. Just lost his way.
I do see a alot of improvement over the last 6 months.
It will be 3 years in January when he dropped the B, but I expect it started about 6 years ago.
Thanks for the article! :)
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Equally important, I recognize the strange dance that occurs in a co-dependent relationship as both parties work to maintain the status quo. I'm changing the dance steps. He can try and keep up if he wants. What matters, though, is that I now can identify how he's pushing my buttons and, thus, can react with knowledge instead of pure emotion.
Is this why it feels like my W's goal in life is to torture me? I really don't understand the co-dependency angle. She already has my attention, why continue to push my buttons (torture me)? When I pursued, she tortured me. Now that I'm distancing, she is following me around to torture me. What is her goal? Did the book explain this? I want her to leave me alone, but she won't. She won't stop texting, she follows me to church every Sunday, she keeps the children on the phone with her when they're with me, etc... Is this her strange way of showing that she still loves me?
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DaRealist- have you ever asked her not to?
I mean don't ask her why she's doing what she does...just make a simple request not to?
She may lack boundaries with you if you interpret what's happening as torture.
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DaRealist- have you ever asked her not to?
Yes, in a round-about way. But she's smart enough to only text me about the children. And I can't in good conscience ask her not to come to church.
So why is that torture? Because when she texts me, her signature shows her maiden name, which she knows I'll see. Or when she comes to church, she'll make it known to everyone that we're not together. She made such a scene last Sunday I was totally embarrassed. Or when she talks to D9 when I have the kids, she'll make it a point to tell her that she loves and misses her and to make sure she tells S4 how much she misses him, obviously leaving someone (me, me, me) out.
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Da realist, my h does all that stuff with the kids. Of course he doesn't pay any attention to me though, I'm enemy no.1 right now. I don't take that personally if I can help it.
The church thing is very odd, she's really trying very hard to prove a point isn't she. Did you tell her behaviour was embarrassing? I think you could try and lay down a few clear boundaries if you are finding her behaviour torturous.
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Is this why it feels like my W's goal in life is to torture me? I really don't understand the co-dependency angle. She already has my attention, why continue to push my buttons (torture me)? When I pursued, she tortured me. Now that I'm distancing, she is following me around to torture me. What is her goal? Did the book explain this? I want her to leave me alone, but she won't. She won't stop texting, she follows me to church every Sunday, she keeps the children on the phone with her when they're with me, etc... Is this her strange way of showing that she still loves me?
If it feels like torture then it is torture. She is torturing you.
If you'll permit me I'll rephrase your question: "Is she torturing me because she loves me?" The answer is, she is torturing you because she CAN and because she WANTS to. She is deriving a perverse satisfaction from torturing you. It is not love.
You ask:
Is this her strange way of showing that she still loves me?
No, it is her strange way of abusing you. Loving people do not play cruel mind games. Love is patient, love is kind. Is your W treating you with patient kindness?
It is difficult for you because the abuse is covert. Going to your church, texting a lot, keeping the kids on the phone during your time with them, doesn't sound like abuse to most people, so it leaves you confused, sometimes doubting your own sanity and doubting whether anyone would believe you are being tortured/emotionally abused.
You want her to leave you alone? If she does not respond agreeably to a polite request that she leave you alone then there may be no other way than to take evasive action.
Attend a different church. Change your mobile phone number so you can't receive texts from her or block her from texting if that is possible. If she needs to communicate with you regarding the children she can do so by a telephone call. You can choose whether or not to answer or she can leave a message to which reply to in your own time after having thought about what your most appropriate response will be.
Good luck.
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The church thing is tough...I don't think I'd be able to change churches if her behavior is this "off balance" then maybe she would just follow you to the next one.
And to give up your church do to this? Is a little over the top IMHO.
You being embarrassed it what you may have to get passed..I assume everyone knows the divorce happened and if she's "acting out" it just makes HER look ridiculous. Ignore her and this..no audience no behavior she may become bored and just stop.
Change your mobile phone number so you can't receive texts from her or block her from texting if that is possible. If she needs to communicate with you regarding the children she can do so by a telephone call. You can choose whether or not to answer or she can leave a message to which reply to in your own time after having thought about what your most appropriate response will be.
I agree with the rest of this.
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toughtimes and honour,
Thanks so much for that perspective! It's really hard to get people to understand this and you hit it on the nail. I'm not crazy. This is abuse even if it looks like she's a sweet mom that cares about her children and wants to attend church.
You being embarrassed it what you may have to get passed..I assume everyone knows the divorce happened and if she's "acting out" it just makes HER look ridiculous. Ignore her and this..no audience no behavior she may become bored and just stop.
This is what is so embarrassing... We're not divorced yet! She hasn't even filed. She's never told me she is going by her maiden name, she just changed her facebook username and email address without ever saying anything.
She came to Sunday School this week and sat beside me. The lesson was about forgiveness, how marriage is a covenant with GOD and how sin carries consequences. She was asked to pray to close out the class and she sounded so good I actually said a silent prayer to God thanking him for making changes in her heart. Five mins after class, a fellow student that didn't know her asked for her name and when she responded he looked at me and asked, "Is she your better half?". I said, "Yes" and she turned around and said loudly, "We're EXES. We decided to be exes!" I said, "No, WE didn't decide that." She said, "Well I decided it then." Then she chased me down the stairs talking about some separation agreement she hasn't even finalized yet.
She usually goes home after Sunday School but this time she stays for service. So she waits with the kids and I in the vestibule. We all go in and she follows me inside. ??? When I reach the pew, I open up and let the kids in and then let her in thinking she wanted to sit with us. She sighed loud and rolled her eyes like she didn't want to be there. So I said "You don't have to sit with us!" She walks over both children and sits so far away from me I needed binoculars to see her.
The next day she says she's gonna see her lawyer to finalize the separation agreement this Friday. Never mind that she won't pay her bills...obviously paying a lawyer is more important right now.
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She's still responsible for herself regardless..try not to let her behavior be a reflection on you!
She's much like a misbehaved teen-ager. She's responsible for her own behavior.
Don't engage her in front of other people or answer what she says..change the subject.
just my 2 cents
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Sounds like a regressed MLCer to me! Teenage anger all spewing out in public with no awareness of herself and how she appears to others. This is a poor reflection on her and given the sermon you would think she would restrain herself, but this shows shes in a mlc fog. So sorry you have to deal with this.
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Equally important, I recognize the strange dance that occurs in a co-dependent relationship as both parties work to maintain the status quo. I'm changing the dance steps. He can try and keep up if he wants. What matters, though, is that I now can identify how he's pushing my buttons and, thus, can react with knowledge instead of pure emotion.
Is this why it feels like my W's goal in life is to torture me? I really don't understand the co-dependency angle. She already has my attention, why continue to push my buttons (torture me)? When I pursued, she tortured me. Now that I'm distancing, she is following me around to torture me. What is her goal? Did the book explain this? I want her to leave me alone, but she won't. She won't stop texting, she follows me to church every Sunday, she keeps the children on the phone with her when they're with me, etc... Is this her strange way of showing that she still loves me?
In a co-dependent relationship, the co-dependent individual (it gets really screwed up when both are!) will do things to try to get the other person to behave in a certain way. For example, in my relationship, I went through this horrible period of utter fury for what he'd done. I KNEW I was supposed to detach and I tried very hard to be successful, but every time he'd come around, I'd start in on the R discussion (while my head was telling me to STFU), I'd end up crying and making him feel even more guilty, he'd leave to be with OW which increased my fury and a few times resulted in what I call "vile texting". Rinse and repeat. My co-dependence meant that I needed to feel like I was a worthless martyr. So basically, I was sabotaging my efforts to make darn sure I was going to stay in Martyr-land.
Conversely, H is a co-dependent fixer who firmly believes he is responsible for everyone else. So he (rightly) feels guilt for what he's doing to me and his family. But he also feels guilt for what he's doing to OW (he has told me this). In order to continue hating himself, he continues to string two women along and then wallow in his guilt. When we have R discussions, he is certain to throw out one thing: that because we had intimacy problems, he prayed to God for his Pen!$ to break. The implication is that it was my fault. The result, until recently, has been--you guessed it--me in tears.
I'm not saying that he can help this, by the way. One thing I learned from the book is that with many co-dependents, they eventually reach a point of critical mass where they are essentially forced to change. I see that clearly in H, and the fact that he's having the pleasure of living an MLC actually forced my own critical mass and, thus, is forcing me to change.
I hope this makes sense and helps.
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No, that really helps, Medusa. I guess I'm trying to find the balance here. There has to be some co-dependence when you're not only married, but best friends. I understand the need to change behaviors to become a better person. I have and will continue to do so. But I enjoy hanging out with my wife/partner/girlfriend. I enjoy dining out. I enjoy reading books together and then discussing our thoughts. I enjoy talking on the phone half the night if we're apart. I enjoy late night conversations while listening to the quiet storm. I just enjoy being with that other person. All the time, to be honest.
Does this make me co-dependent and is this a bad thing?
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Sounds like a regressed MLCer to me! Teenage anger all spewing out in public with no awareness of herself and how she appears to others. This is a poor reflection on her and given the sermon you would think she would restrain herself, but this shows shes in a mlc fog. So sorry you have to deal with this.
This may seem crazy, but I needed this reminder. My mind plays tricks on me too. Am I crazy or is she crazy? She stashed cash behind my back, was secretive, abusive and abandoned me before she moved out. I still have to pinch and ask myself do I even know what normal is. The stuff I'm seeing from my W can't be explained or understood. It makes me think I'm the one that needs to be locked in a padded cell until I realize that being faithful, raising your children, paying bills in a timely fashion and having the sense not to mock God in His place of worship is no longer the norm.
So it helps me when someone else reminds me..."your W is in a fog and is not thinking rationally." BD was a year ago and I still need this reminder. I guess there's some part of me resisting the obvious here. Like Neo unable to accept the "real world" after taking the red pill.
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This may seem crazy, but I needed this reminder. My mind plays tricks on me too. Am I crazy or is she crazy? She stashed cash behind my back, was secretive, abusive and abandoned me before she moved out. I still have to pinch and ask myself do I even know what normal is. The stuff I'm seeing from my W can't be explained or understood. It makes me think I'm the one that needs to be locked in a padded cell until I realize that being faithful, raising your children, paying bills in a timely fashion and having the sense not to mock God in His place of worship is no longer the norm.
So it helps me when someone else reminds me..."your W is in a fog and is not thinking rationally." BD was a year ago and I still need this reminder. I guess there's some part of me resisting the obvious here. Like Neo unable to accept the "real world" after taking the red pill.
You are sane one who try to understand "insane" one. So, to understand insane one You have to become insane one. Even in such a case I am not sure that You will be able to do. They try to understand self, but they can't.
And that is great metaphor about Neo. Neo is awakened. Our MLCers still live in Matrix.
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Great article! Thanks for sharing! This describes my H in almost every way and it's scary!
Before my H moved away, he told me that he did realize that he had a problem and said he wanted to work on himself.
I also think theres an OW involved in my case too, but he won't admit it.
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lostinpgh my H said a similar thing, he said ufcked up when he met me and he thought he had fixed himself during our R but he had fixed himself wrong because he had fixed himself within the sphere of this ufcked up R and so now he had to go away, lick his wounds and fix himself properly! It was mind boggling, he told me I was ufcked up when we met too and that I had never fixed myself. So much fixing seemed to be required!
I suggested we work on ourselves and thus work on our marriage. He said he had to go and fix himself alone ... turns out he had ow to go and fix himself with!
DaRealist you are not insane and your description of wanting to spend quality time with your wife is lovely. It's not codependent, I think if you were changing your life or neglecting aspects of yourself so that you could be with her or please her then that may be, but you describe a healthy love and a shared life.
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Thank you, toughtimes. I'm sorry to see your H has an OW while you raise 2 small children. May God bless you and awaken your H to the treasure he left at home.
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Interdependent is a word that's used for a healthy relationship if you Google it it should come up with an example.
Ex used to get so freaked out if our voices in a Restaurant would go above a normal tone. No excitement please..no laughing out loud. Hands in laps- everybody behave.
For my d20's 18th birthday I took her and d17 (then 14) to a really nice restaurant to celebrate.
I told the waitress on the side about her "special Birthday".
After dinner they brought her a piece of cake with a candle and a quartet of waitresses sang happy Birthday-in fact the whole restaurant joined in.
The look on her face was PRICELESS! She LOVED it. I sat and laughed out loud all the way through it.
The ex would have been HORRIFIED at such joy being expressed in public that loudly..and that the attention would have been at a table HE happened to be sitting at! My, my how un-proper! ::)
This is a normal healthy way to celebrate a birthday.
What your W is doing is inexcusable as an adult in a place of worship. The behavior can only be ignored by you.
You can not appeal to her sense of what "acceptable" is as that will probably only lead to more outrageous behavior because she knows she's pushing your buttons.
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Here's the article it was on this thread back a couple of pages
http://www.loveisrespect.org/dating-basics/healthy-relationships?gclid=CMHB8crY4roCFallOgodeDcAoA
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I have a question that perhaps someone could answer. I haven't fully read the article so perhaps I do not comprehend the full meaning of codependency. So, here's my question: Is it possible for another person to cause and/or influence someone to become codependent? My ex was married prior to me....for nearly 12 years. They never had any children. From the stories my ex told me about his first wife I gathered she was a selfish, spoiled, high-maintenance woman. For example: He wanted to purchase a cologne for himself but she didn't like the fragrance and told him to purchase another one that she liked. He refused so she went outside the store and cried. He said she acted like that all the time...pitched her little temper tantrums. He said he stayed with her to try to make it work......he did everything to please her. I do not think he realized the damage he was creating for himself by ignoring his feelings, thoughts, needs, etc. by catering to hers. When he left me he told me he read the book, "Codependent No More". He said he felt like he could only be happy by making others happy. He said when he no longer received the feelings of happiness from me is when he started dealing with his issues and demons. He had OW#1 working with him and she started fueling his "happiness".
Just curious if another person can contribute to this type of issue (codependency) by their behavior.
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His exwife sounds like a manipulator to me.Usually they are very materialistic people.
Someone who gets what they want by acting a certain way and playing on someone elses guilt, self worth, and sense of self.
These ow are manipulators and will twist anything they can to get what they want in the end. Games is thier first and only thing they know.
Usually their true colors show through and the codependent realizes they've been taken for a ride by someone who has no real emotion for them. All he may be getting from her is a feigned sense of TRUE love mean time she may be taking him for a financial ride.
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Wow , the article was a bit of an eye opener . It applies very much to my H and could explain why he keep saying " that he has lived his love to please others " .
Callan
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Exactly..and although that does give the co-pendent as sense of belonging and "self" if not the person's true nature? Giving and not expecting something back?
They become very unhappy and discontent.
I never really expected anything in return I gave for the sheer joy it gave me to do so..I think I may have been taken a little bit for granted due to my giving nature.
I thought just maybe he would recognize just how much I had done or was doing to make life easier for him..I didn't think about me. Maybe express a little appreciation?
But if I wanted something it was always a fight..never a discussion or what I might need or want..materially or emotionally.
So as long as I kept my mouth shut everything was just fine. Never wanted my opinion or anything else. If I was agreeing with him that was fine but if I had thought about something longer than him and had come up with a different or better solution..forget it! He was ALWAYS RIGHT.
Actually he never thought I had an original thought of my own he always felt I was being influenced by someone else..or a book I had read or whatever..
I remember crying one day trying to tell him how I felt way before BD.
He stood there and screamed at me "That doesn't make any sense!!" So I screamed back at him "That's why they call them FEELINGS! They don't make sense".
I'm just so glad I don't have to deal with him anymore. My self worth isn't tied up in someone who is so dismissive of how I feel.
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My H has certainly built up a lot of resent and anger toward me and it seems his family . It frustrates me so much that I always asked him how he felt or if he was okay with something and all the time he never gave me his true feelings and then resents me .
H was always quite forceful and arrogant and liked to get his way on day to day things like the dog being allowed on the sofa or how something was done in the house and if he wanted to go out with his mates he would do whatever he wanted , in fact when his mother was talking about him a while back she said she had always felt that he was quite selfish .
When he started saying all this " I have lived me life to please others everyone was quite stumped because he pretty mush pleased himself and I was never one to stop him doing things that he enjoyed , but now I can see that he was forceful on what I would call day to day life issues but not forceful with his feelings and now he resents me for not guessing how he really felt .
He also looked to me for his happiness so I can see that when depression set in his natural feeling would be to blame me because no matter what I did it was not making him happy anymore so obviously I had to go .
What is so ironic is that he was always so accomplished and always made me feel safe , but it seems that I am the strong one , but what ever I do at the moment is wrong so the best thing is to do nothing at all .
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Yep- when in doubt do NOTHING. He'll sort himself out or he won't.
Nobody is a mind reader..he may have kept sacrificing thinking you'd catch on somehow?? I don't know. Even though it didn't appear that way to you- he did what he wanted to do.
It comes down to communicating and feeling vulnerable to let someone know how you feel. IMHO He wasn't going to do that..you were supposed to be a mind reader.
There's no making them happy; it's not your job...it's hard to let go but you have to for your own sanity.
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Thanks init, I suddenly realised last night in IC that he has been thinking that his happiness was my responsibility , and that he feels let down by me and probably his parents because now he is unhappy .
Callan
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Thanks init, I suddenly realised last night in IC that he has been thinking that his happiness was my responsibility , and that he feels let down by me and probably his parents because now he is unhappy .
Callan
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I came to this realization, too. And I realize that I felt responsible for her happiness too! That's why I jumped through so many hoops after BD. Maybe that's where the codependency was. I wanted to protect her and make her happy.
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DaRealist:
It's a natural thing when you love somebody! Don't be too hard on yourself.
You have to take a look at yourself that's all. :)
It's hard to be happy around someone who is going through this and not have it effect you..we aren't robots. And it's hard to try not to fix what's wrong.
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I would love to have my h come home and we could talk through all the things I have learned and I could help him in the way I am trying to help myself. But, that doesn't work, h and I tried to help each other but failed miserably because as we all now know, it's up to the individual to fix themselves. We need patience and focus to go on us and our children. Universe or God has our MLCer's backs, lets trust it will work out just right.
Hugs TT xx
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I came to this realization, too. And I realize that I felt responsible for her happiness too! That's why I jumped through so many hoops after BD. Maybe that's where the codependency was. I wanted to protect her and make her happy.
Ask self what are you was before her MLC, there is answer about your self. After BD is natural to help, salvage spouse. But when you learn that is her personal crisis and she blame you for her crisis, you can't help her because she see you as enemy, she is victim, you are abuser from her point of view.
So, make introspection of self how was you are before her crisis. As I read what you wrote I did not see any maladaptive codependency in it.
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Does this make me co-dependent and is this a bad thing?
Ha! Co-dependency is a lot deeper than just wanting to be with the person you love. A lot of it is about control.
I was thinking about this yesterday and have formulated the theory that the MLC makes those of us who are Standing co-dependent, at least in the beginning. We're sitting here trying to figure out what's happened to our lives and then we start grasping to control things that are totally beyond our control because our lives have been totally upended. We start breaking the co-dependent cycle when we are able to accept what's happened to us and look to ourselves. Its hard, its painful as heck, and its also truly necessary for us to become the best people we can be.
Hate to be cliche, but the adage about letting something go is very apt. Not just our MLC spouses but ourselves. What I'm learning is that by setting myself free, I am able to take the parts of me I like and keep them. The rest is just who I used to be.
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We were so close. We did everything together. I started expecting that we'd always do things together. At some point, she stopped wanting to be around me as much, but didn't tell me. As she started to pull away, I pursued...sometimes angrily. I didn't know what was going on. In all fairness, I wouldn't have believed her anyway.
I'm not one of those guys that have a lot of guy friends. I have a couple of good ones, but I relate more easily to women. I like the "best friend" aspect of our marital relationship and I can't imagine being in a marriage where I hang with my boys, she hangs with her girls and we meet somewhere in the middle to raise the kids, pay bills and have a date night every once in a while.
This is one of the things I am changing about myself. If she or someone new doesn't want to watch tv together...ok. If she doesn't want to read books or spend the day with me that's fine. I think... I'm kind of afraid that she'll come back and want to do her own thing (without me) and at some point I refuse to accept it.
I think I just spelled out C-O-D-E-P-E-N-D-E-N-C-Y ??? Or maybe, I created an environment where she became codependent to me.
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In all fairness, I wouldn't have believed her anyway.
Yep- that's what happened to me..I simply would not believe he didn't want a relationship..I was ego driven I guess..not that I think I'm all that.
I thought he'd want the family somewhat intact .Nope-wrong about that also.
This is one of the things I am changing about myself. If she or someone new doesn't want to watch tv together...ok. If she doesn't want to read books or spend the day with me that's fine. I think... I'm kind of afraid that she'll come back and want to do her own thing (without me) and at some point I refuse to accept it
Control is a tough thing to give up..everybody has this to some extent ..that you are working on accepting if someone doesn't want to watch tv etc is good! When you stop taking it as something against YOU. You feel much better that they are happier doing something else.
(In blue) This is why we take this TIME to work on ourselves. You are doing great!
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DaRealist your comments really struck me. My H would always say (always as in these last 6 or so years) "You need to do things on your own, with your girlfriends" or whoever. I need .......but yet he never went off on his own until the crisis, we too always went out together. I would sometimes "watch a different TV program than him" and he would comment, "why don't you watch with me?? I could not figure out what he really wanted? with me or not with me?? I think he was trying to figure it out himself. I think maybe your W is "doing it differently" just trying to see what fits?? hard and very hurtful I know :( I think marriage can create an environment all on its own, you did nothing!
31
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Counter-dependency
Left untreated, co-dependency can ruin relationships. There is a danger that when things do come to a head or as another form of coping, counter-dependency can result. In a relationship, there is often one co-dependent and one counter dependent person. Counter-dependency is the opposite side of the coin. Symptoms include emotional aloofness, inflated sense of self-esteem, blaming of others, is a people controller and victimizes before being victimized. Sufferers tend to have been abused as children where co-dependency is usually a result of neglect. Many co-dependents in their need to please see the symptoms of counter-dependency as a potential cure for them and many couples reverse these roles in the life of a relationship. People with counter-dependent behaviors often struggle with creating appropriate boundaries. Their need for protection while growing up was so strong that they had to create walls instead….counter-dependent individuals are often less in touch with their feelings.
Yeah. Codependent when hit MLC become Counter-dependent ? How interesting ? Just opposite. This can be very interesting !
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I think due to lacking so much self esteem (for me anyway) might lead to the counter-dependency thing but the more I'm made aware of this..I don't want to become an @$$hole like him.
I'm focusing on interdependency in relationships.
I found this about healthy self esteem.
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/self-esteem/MH00129
Thanks Albatross you really keep my brain working!! ;D ;D ;D
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Agree :) :) :)
31
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Counter-dependency: The Opposite of Codependency
Co-dependency For this reason, counter-dependency is often seen as the opposite or flip side of codependency. Rather than being weak and clingy, those with counter-dependency issues appear strong, secure, hardworking, and successful on the outside. On the inside, however, they feel weak, insecure, fearful, and needy. They may function well in the world of business, but are often insecure in the world of relationships. People with unhealed trauma from the counter-dependent stage of development often find themselves in a relationship with someone who has unhealed traumas from the codependent stage of development. You may even have unhealed traumas from each of these developmental stages.
Frequently they have poor social and emotional skills, are afraid to get close to others, and avoid intimate situations as much as possible. They also create a lot of defenses to prevent anyone from seeing their secret weaknesses, neediness and vulnerability. In short, they put on a good front to prove that they are okay and do not need anything from anyone. These defensive tactics create feelings of loneliness, alienation, and a sense of “quiet desperation.”
Interesting.
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Interesting is right hmmmmmm
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31, you exactly described my relationship with H. I was out doing my thing and then, when I lost it because we moved and I just never connected with people where I am, I ended up getting castigated for him being "the center of your universe". Except that he wanted to be the center of my universe, and when I found something else to do (my doctorate) he ended up having an affair.
Here's the thing, though. He would have done that anyway. That's what happens in our situations. I went round and round and round about 3,162,547 time on this and finally accepted that no matter what I did, this was going to happen because of who he.
The best any of us can do is continue to educate ourselves so we understand ourselves (and our bizarre spouses as much as humanly possible) and change negative reactions into positive ones.
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3,162,547????
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D How long did that take? ..wait let me guess..about 2.5 seconds right??
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Exactly!!! It was going to happen No matter what :)
time is on our side...
31
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It really is a shame this crisis .....thing.
It could so easily have been a transition that was made instead of all of this devastation.
I just have to think about all the KIDS trying to deal with this. The adults?..not so much.
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Counter-dependency: The Opposite of Codependency
Co-dependency For this reason, counter-dependency is often seen as the opposite or flip side of codependency. Rather than being weak and clingy, those with counter-dependency issues appear strong, secure, hardworking, and successful on the outside. On the inside, however, they feel weak, insecure, fearful, and needy. They may function well in the world of business, but are often insecure in the world of relationships. People with unhealed trauma from the counter-dependent stage of development often find themselves in a relationship with someone who has unhealed traumas from the codependent stage of development. You may even have unhealed traumas from each of these developmental stages.
Frequently they have poor social and emotional skills, are afraid to get close to others, and avoid intimate situations as much as possible. They also create a lot of defenses to prevent anyone from seeing their secret weaknesses, neediness and vulnerability. In short, they put on a good front to prove that they are okay and do not need anything from anyone. These defensive tactics create feelings of loneliness, alienation, and a sense of “quiet desperation.”
Interesting.
This is my H, I am more on the codependent side of things. Gosh what a pair, no wonder things were up and down.
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Does this make me co-dependent and is this a bad thing?
This is a good question and one I've asked myself too. To be honest I'm not sure what co-dependency is because what you have written here sounds like an emotionally healthy human:
But I enjoy hanging out with my wife/partner/girlfriend. I enjoy dining out. I enjoy reading books together and then discussing our thoughts. I enjoy talking on the phone half the night if we're apart. I enjoy late night conversations while listening to the quiet storm. I just enjoy being with that other person.
whereas the following sounds like an emotionally unhealthy human:
We're not divorced yet! She hasn't even filed. She's never told me she is going by her maiden name, she just changed her facebook username and email address without ever saying anything.
a fellow student that didn't know her asked for her name and when she responded he looked at me and asked, "Is she your better half?". I said, "Yes" and she turned around and said loudly, "We're EXES. We decided to be exes!" I said, "No, WE didn't decide that." She said, "Well I decided it then." Then she chased me down the stairs talking about some separation agreement she hasn't even finalized yet.
She stashed cash behind my back, was secretive, abusive and abandoned me before she moved out.
Am I crazy or is she crazy?
You are not crazy.
The stuff I'm seeing from my W can't be explained or understood. It makes me think I'm the one that needs to be locked in a padded cell
The doubting of your own sanity is a not uncommon consequence for emotionally healthy, empathetic people who have been subject to narcissistic or psychopathic manipulation and abuse. I would guess that after BD the majority of us on this forum at one time or another felt like we were going mad and asked your question, "am I crazy or is she/he crazy?" It is especially difficult for the LBS who have been subject to monster, to lies, to repeatedly being told how bad they are and for those who have had their good name and reputation cruelly smeared in their community by a crazy spouse and those who believe them.
You are not crazy, DaRealist.
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Am I crazy or is she crazy?
You are not crazy.
Quote
The stuff I'm seeing from my W can't be explained or understood. It makes me think I'm the one that needs to be locked in a padded cell
The doubting of your own sanity is a not uncommon consequence for emotionally healthy, empathetic people who have been subject to narcissistic or psychopathic manipulation and abuse. I would guess that after BD the majority of us on this forum at one time or another felt like we were going mad and asked your question, "am I crazy or is she/he crazy?" It is especially difficult for the LBS who have been subject to monster, to lies, to repeatedly being told how bad they are and for those who have had their good name and reputation cruelly smeared in their community by a crazy spouse and those who believe them.
You are not crazy, DaRealist.
honour,
You have no idea how much comfort it gives me to read this part of your post.
those four words right now mean more to me than those "three little words" do.
Put those four words on your bathroom mirror.
YOU ARE NOT CRAZY.
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My understanding of what is meant by codependency is, I believe, different than what I am hearing a lot of on this forum.
First of all, it is not a dirty word. It has been used as a synonym for a lot of really bad things that have no business being compared to it. If you are a normal, caring, loving person, chances are that you are codependent. Codependency is simply the phenomenon of being affected emotionally by someone else's behavior. Usually that behavior is cruel, insensitive, unhealthy, demeaning, abusive and addictive.
I do not tell anything to anyone on this forum that I do not tell myself every day. I am codependent, and so is pretty much everyone on this forum. It is not the worst thing for someone to be. The problem with it is any time you are controlled emotionally by someone else, you are going to be hurt. It is not the best way to take care of yourself. That's why we all hear so much about detachment. We must detach. Detachment has nothing to do with not loving. We must not obsess over another's behavior. Yes, obsess. I still think constantly about my x if I don't have something else to occupy my mind. I hope that will lesson in time.
It's really hard to detach from someone you love. But it is the only way we have to move forward in our own growth. We must make ourselves dependent on God and God alone for our happiness, security, identity and fulfillment. I know that xyz knows all of this and that she is a shining example of how to move forward in her life without her beloved MLCer. I just see her enduring too much pain at the hands of her addictive (work) H. The 12 step program for spouses of addicts is a helpful program. I think we are all the spouses of addictive behavior.....the mishandling of a normal life transition (midlife) by people who have difficulty reaching into themselves to solve their problems. They would rather blame it all on us or some other external thing.
Here's to all us codependents. I love us all.
Twilight- How eloquent and so on target your comments are about codependency are. I agree totally! I have been struggling with this idea of codependency being a bad thing. I am fairly new on this forum (2 1/2 months) and I get that in our cases with MLCers we must detach, but in God's perfect plan there would be no detachment. Reading your comments made me understand more why I am having a hard time detaching- because it is not the NORM in a marriage! God's plan is that 2 become one; however, for our emotional sanity we are having to go against that and detach. Thank you for helping me understand clearly why this is so hard for me.
Codependency is not the same as normal caring behaviour. A codependent person needs other people's approval for his/her self esteem, enables the pathological (addictive/ narcisistic) behaviour of the other, needs to help people in order to have self esteem and feels resentful if the others don't need her/ him (so it's not pure altruism). Codependents doubt their own abilities, can't express their own thoughts and feelings easily, but can fly into disproportionate rages. They take responsibility for other people's mistakes, whether through feeling guilty or protecting the other from the consequences of their actions, and has a hard time trusting people.
No, we're not all codependent. We may recognise that we do too much for others (which is not good for them or us), and have the occasional trait, but unless the above description fits you, you are not codependent. It's not healthy behaviour, or Christian, or loving or compassionate. It's needy and dysfunctional, and doesn't let the other people around grow either. There's nothing good about it.
If you think you really are codependent, don't be afraid. Losing this trait will let you grow as MORE caring, compassionate people.
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Detachment is not coldness, or aloofness. Quite the opposite. Detachment is losing your emotional dependency on others (not the same as codependency, but there are crossovers).
It's about having love, concern, and caring for others without needing to rescue, fix them or control them. So it's actually more loving, more altuistic, than clinging love.
Here's what I found on one of the links above, a long time ago:
Detachment is the:
! Ability to allow people, places, or things the freedom to be themselves.
! Holding back from the need to rescue, save, or fix another person from being sick, dysfunctional, or irrational.
! Giving another person ``the space'' to be him or herself.
! Disengaging from an overenmeshed or dependent relationship with people.
! Willingness to accept that you cannot change or control a person, place, or thing.
! Developing and maintaining of a safe, emotional distance from someone whom you have previously given a lot of power to affect your emotional outlook on life.
! Establishing of emotional boundaries between you and those people you have become overly enmeshed or dependent with in order that all of you might be able to develop your own sense of autonomy and independence.
! Process by which you are free to feel your own feelings when you see another person falter and fail and not be led by guilt to feel responsible for their failure or faltering.
! Ability to maintain an emotional bond of love, concern, and caring without the negative results of rescuing, enabling, fixing, or controlling.
! Placing of all things in life into a healthy, rational perspective and recognizing that there is a need to back away from the uncontrollable and unchangeable realities of life.
! Ability to exercise emotional self-protection and prevention so as not to experience greater emotional devastation from having hung on beyond a reasonable and rational point.
! Ability to let people you love and care for accept personal responsibility for their own actions and to practice tough love and not give in when they come to you to bail them out when their actions lead to failure or trouble for them.
! Ability to allow people to be who they ``really are'' rather than who you ``want them to be.''
! Ability to avoid being hurt, abused, taken advantage of by people who in the past have been overly dependent or enmeshed with you.
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Through my therapy I have learned that I am codependant and it is not healthy, at all. My therapist has me reading "Codependent No More" by Melody Beattie. It has helped me a great deal understanding myself and understanding how I in turn made my husband feel. I also suffer from anxiety and that has been more added pressure on our relationship too. I became isolated, and relied soley on H for all my social and communication needs. I lost my self. Now I am in the process of finding it and reconnecting with my friends and family and gaining my own confidence.
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Here's a great article on Codependency vs. Interdependency by Darlene Lancer, JD, MFT.
http://psychcentral.com/lib/codependency-vs-interdependency/00014263
I was surprised to learn that this grove of aspen trees is actually one organism, sharing one root system. Each of us also is a community of 70 trillion cells that work together. Biologist Bruce Lipton believes that together we’re “one collaborative superorganism.” I love that Facebook allows us to connect one-to-one all over the planet.
Society is highly specialized and interdependent, so that few of us would know how to survive without running water, electricity, and a supermarket. We’re also dependent upon our personal relationships. Human brains aren’t fully developed for 18 years, and psychological and financial independence from our parents takes even longer. Moreover, as adults we depend upon others to fill sexual, social, and emotional needs, such as friendship, communication, nurturing, appreciation, learning, love, and touch. The closer a relationship, the more we’re interconnected.
The Debate
Many claim that because we’re wired for dependency, “codependency” is normal and shouldn’t be considered a problem. They claim it’s not only natural, but healthy and beneficial to be dependent upon an intimate relationship. They blame the codependency movement for breaking up marriages and people’s loneliness. I agree that we all have dependency needs and that healthy relationships can meet those needs and greatly benefit us. However, codependency’s detractors don’t understand — probably from lack of personal experience — that codependents don’t reap those relationship benefits. Often they’re in unhealthy relationships, and they relate to others in unhealthy ways with patterns of obsession, self-sacrifice, dysfunctional communication, and control, which are both self-destructive and hurtful to others. They’re often abusive or allow themselves to be abused.
Codependent Couples
Codependent couples usually are out of balance. Frequently, there are struggles for power and control. There may be an imbalance of power or one partner may have taken on responsibility for the other. They’re often anxious and resentful and feel guilty and responsible for their partner’s feelings and moods. Then they try to control each another to feel okay and get their needs met. Rather than respect each other’s separateness and individuality, they can’t tolerate disagreement and blame one another for causing their problems without taking responsibility for themselves. Sometimes, what they dislike in their partner is the very thing they can’t accept in themselves. Despite their pain, they can feel trapped in the relationship because they fear that they cannot function on their own. Their mutual codependency and insecurity also makes intimacy threatening, since being honest and known risks rejection or dissolution of their fragile self.
Like the aspen trees, on the surface each may appear to be physically, and even mentally and emotionally, independent, yet at an unconscious level, they’re two insecure adults dependent upon each other to express a whole. For instance, a woman who has trouble expressing anger marries an angry man who expresses it for her. Or a man who is extremely closed and shy marries a woman who’s emotionally open and gregarious. They need each other to express their full humanity. In other cases, it’s more obvious that one partner needs the other for emotional stability, as in the case of alcoholic relationships. Financial dependence doesn’t necessarily create codependence, where the dependent partner has good self-esteem and emotional support outside the marriage. Even spouses who appear more capable and stronger may be equally dependent on the relationship. They need someone to care for in order to feel needed, worthwhile, and not alone, while their partner feels valued by receiving.
Interdependent Couples
What makes interconnections healthy is interdependency, not codependency. Paradoxically, interdependency requires two people capable of autonomy (the ability to function independently). When couples love each other, it’s normal to feel attached, to desire closeness, to be concerned for each another, and to depend upon each other. Their lives are intertwined, and they’re affected by and need each other. However, they share power equally and take responsibility for their own feelings, actions, and contributions to the relationship. Because they have self-esteem, they can manage their thoughts and feelings on their own and don’t have to control someone else to feel okay. They can allow for each other’s differences and honor each another’s separateness. Thus, they’re not afraid to be honest. They can listen to their partner’s feelings and needs without feeling guilty or becoming defensive. Since their self-esteem doesn’t depend upon their partner, they don’t fear intimacy, and independence doesn’t threaten the relationship. In fact, the relationship gives them each more freedom. There’s mutual respect and support for each other’s personal goals, but both are committed to the relationship.
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Thanks, Ready2Transform! That's a really clear analysis of the situation.
Attachment is not the same as dependency... we can be attached and not dependent. And there are different ways of being attached.
I think the confusion about codependency comes because we can often recognise some elements in ourselves. As wives/ mothers, we may take on too much and find ourselves putting our needs in second place.
In my case, my husband always worked long hours (up to 125 a week!) so I took on most of the household and child care tasks. As the children grew up, I assigned them tasks, and H too, but I was still overloaded (I was also teaching full time, and doing my PhD, etc.) But I made time for myself, going to the gym, out with friends,
I also recognise that H has some degree of PD (passive aggressive, narcissitic elements), and that means that our R had some disfunctionality... yet I put H on a pedestal. Despite this, I was very independent, had my own friends, career and was quite confident in myself (not depending on Hs approval). Moreover, I have always been open, and express what I think easily and I am assertive.
So I recognise that there were elements of codependency, and yet I was far from being codependent. I put this in the past because those elements which I thought were disfunctional have been addressed (are still being addressed... H still has some egocentric issues which drive me mad).
I suppose it is like this with many of us... our relationships become unbalanced because of life's demands, and also because of inner inbalances in both us and our H. There may be elements of co-dependency, and other pathologies, or you may really be fully co-dependent. Finally your R hits crisis point, and you have to face yourself.
So anyone who thinks they are co-dependent, before you beat yourself up about that too, (or think that codependence is acceptable), why not take an online test to see how much you need to readjust your behaviour?
Here's one I thought was good: http://www.codependencynomore.com/codependency-quiz-2/ (http://www.codependencynomore.com/codependency-quiz-2/)
What do you all think? Any more quizzes, ideas?
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That was interesting mermaid.
It said that I may struggle with some codependent tendencies but may not be rooted in that behaviour. That would suggest to me that my relationship with my h brought about those tendancies but they are not the real me, as in I wasn't always that way. I can see where they might have happened with us, he was very sure to keep my self esteem where it was with the petty criticisms and never complimenting etc etc. making me take responsibility for everything And the list goes on.
Our problems began when my self esteem grew and my confidence was high. That was when bd hit, funny that !
Sd
X
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Hi SD!
It's an interesting point... our Rs do change us, but I still wonder why we chose that R in the first place...? As I've said on other posts, we choose our partners because of the way they complete our inner needs/ perceptions.
One theory is that we build our expectations based on our (subconscious) shadow self, that is, our inner idea of masculinity to complete our femininity. This masculine ideal (animus) is a composite learned from our key male relationships earlier in life, and it completes our own inner anima (and the opposite for males). So we look for relationships that seem to fit, but they are essentially a projection of our desires. It's not by chance that we find our partner has characteristics of other important males, as well as ideas of what they should be. The idea of being complete in ourselves is to find our inner animus. We can improve our external relationships by realising that they don't complete us, but they can be mutually supporting.
The other interesting point is that our changing behaviour can trigger their crisis... as we don't play their game, the relationship balance is changed.
In my case, I often refused to play his game, meaning we were often fighting as I refused to accept his dominance/ unfairness. But I think what triggered H was not my behaviour, but external stress. He was suffering from burnout syndrome, and that led him to question everything, looking for meaning.
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Great response mermaid, makes perfect sense.
If my h took the same test and was willing to answer honestly, he would score very highly for codependency. My change and growth over the years must have panicked him and nearly losing me altogether after the children's birth tipped that dependence and showed his weaknesses full on to him.
I have analysed this in the past 5 years and every stressful event was always followed by some push me away behaviour. He had EA at 25 right after we moved in together and we had a personal issue to deal with. He blamed me then too. Hmm a little pattern emerging.
I do no think that I am co dependent as a person, I don't recognise myself in the descriptions, but I agree that one or two of the things on the list are me, but due to my personality type.
It's all very interesting to have a good old poke around at yourself isn't it.
Sd
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It's all very interesting to have a good old poke around at yourself isn't it.
You're very good at it, very honest, not unkind with yourself.... And make the changes. IMHO. :)
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Very interesting conversation. It is good that we are all learning to better ourselves.
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Why thank you Mermaid. :D
Sd
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I did the quiz you uploaded and answered it twice - first time how I was before therapy and the second time after and my therapy.
Interestingly I had "significant co-dependency tendencies" both times and yet I deliberately answered half of the questions in the opposite manner ie true when earlier I had put false.
Just curious about the genuineness of the quiz.
That aside though it was fascinating to see how much I have begun to change and remove some of my co-dependency self labelling.
Still a long way to go.
However I would not dream of answering for my H - I am not his mind reader and now realise that after 27 years, I still don't know him.
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Hi,
I've just taken the test, and even when all my answers are assertive/ independent etc., the result was still "you may struggle a little with codependent tendencies, but you may not be strongly rooted in this behavior."
But if you answered true or always to more than two or three, it will say you have significant codependency issues.
Better still, if you scroll down on the first page, it gives a list of codependency traits, so you can assess yourself:
- Confusion between love and pity; they love those they think they can rescue or pity
Constantly attempting to do more than their share
Exaggerating their responsibility for what other people do
Difficulty with intimate relationships and moral boundaries
Lack of trust; both in themselves and other people
Fragile feelings that are hurt whenever their efforts aren’t recognized
Dependence on at least one relationship, which they will do almost anything conceivable to keep
Unhealthy need for recognition or approval
Needing to control others
Difficulty in making decisions
Feeling guilty for asserting themselves
Problems with communication
Consistent anger and/or difficulty expressing it
Inability to adjust to change
Fearful of being alone or abandoned
Problems with understanding basic feelings
Low self-esteem
Obsession for someone else
The need to be a caretaker
Chronic lying and deception
Dependency on someone else for their own needs
Depression
Denial
Procrastination
Anxiety
Repression of personal needs
Perfectionism
Compulsive talking
Dependency on over-possessive relationships
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I read the same book and learned a ton. The trick is for me to fix it, so my kids don't make same errors and me in future r.
prayers and hugs
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I read the same book and learned a ton. The trick is for me to fix it, so my kids don't make same errors and me in future r.
Here's a good (if unintentional) example; dealing with codependency issues should for your benefit, so you can be a happier, healthier person.
It's not unusual for parents to set aside their own needs and desires. Not everything you do (or don't do) has to be a lesson or a model for your children.
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I read the same book and learned a ton. The trick is for me to fix it, so my kids don't make same errors and me in future r.
Here's a good (if unintentional) example; dealing with codependency issues should for your benefit, so you can be a happier, healthier person.
It's not unusual for parents to set aside their own needs and desires. Not everything you do (or don't do) has to be a lesson or a model for your children.
By having a balance of compassion for others and healthy self-interest, we will be models for our children naturally.
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It's not unusual for parents to set aside their own needs and desires. Not everything you do (or don't do) has to be a lesson or a model for your children.
By having a balance of compassion for others and healthy self-interest, we will be models for our children naturally.
Exactly. Your kids may choose not to follow your example, or learn the wrong lessons, but that doesn't mean you were a failure as a parent.
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I just feel like a lot is on my shoulders as a parent BC scrappy is never coming out of la la land. That is why I am choosing after the d for kids and me to live with family. My kids need to see a healthy family unit, as they have not ever seen it with me and h.
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I'm not saying you shouldn't do things for the benefit of your kids or that your needs trump theirs. But your health and your needs are important, too. You need to have interests and relationships that are healthy and fulfilling for you, and they should be because you want them.
According to my wife, my MIL managed to isolate herself from all of her friends over the years because she didn't make time for them when they wanted to do things with her. There were always sports practices, church activities, or homework to help the kids with. I can say from experience: if you keep being told that someone is too busy to spend time with you, you will eventually stop asking because if they keep telling you over and over again that they're too busy, they're telling you that they do not value that relationship.
My wife says my MIL becomes a different person the rare times she manages to reconnect with old friends (who live on the other side of the country) at weddings or other major events; she's happy and relaxed. Now that all of her kids are out of the house, she doesn't know what to do with herself. Heck, she and my FIL could actually move to be closer to these friends and to get away from extended family drama, but she chooses not to for some reason.
Looking back, I see that you did say that it's important for you in future relationships as well as for your kids. So I'm sorry if I came across as more antagonistic than I intended.
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I think everyone here is more kid sensitive than the average person. We have to be BC we end up being both parents. I feel bad that my kids have never lived with a healthy R, just like Scrappy. Now I am going to make it right and let them be with a couple that have had a 52 year marriage with ups and downs. They work together as a unit and solve issues as a family.