Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: beckergabriel on January 05, 2015, 02:38:34 PM
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Hey folks,
Ive been thinking about this subject for a few weeks, and would like to throw my ideas out there as to why the idea of a MLC and the reality of this event is so largely unrecognized and dismissed.
1. Counselors- Many times when an MLC hits. it brings those in it and those affected by it through the doors of a marital counselor. But that counselor only sees whats coming through the door, and not who the affected individual was before this event. In most cases, the affected MLCer, is relatively sane. Its very difficult for anybody just meeting an MLCer to think. "there is really something wrong with this individual" Furthermore, an MLCer can "explain away" all of their behaviors. Theres nothing an MLCer is doing that they can't completely explain.
2. Family & Friends- MLCers will typically show their best and most sane behavior to family and friends. Family and Friends may not like what they see. They may not like the decisions being made by the affected person, but at most I feel that they would say that the affected person is exhibiting some "extreme behavior" with regard to emotions and decisions being made. But nothing beyond this.
3. Non affected Spouse- The spouse is really the only one who truly understands the extent of the difference being shown by the MLCer. First of all the MLCer shows his or her worst behavior to the spouse. The MLCer will hold the deepest most revealing conversations with his or her spouse. It takes a spouse to really see the subtle changes within the affected spouse many times.
And Finally, The Non affected Spouse has GREAT difficulty in explaining the MLC and the changes in the MLCer to others without being seen as somebody either in denial of whats going on, or somebody looking to skirt the blame that the MLCer is throwing the non affected spouses way by saying that all the horrible things the MLCer is saying is not true, and that He or She is having an EVENT.
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Totally agree with you. And some of the more outlandish characteristics mimic personality and mood disorders, with the physical attributes sometimes falling under adrenal/thyroid problems, andropause, menopause, or peri-menopause, so they tend to get diagnosed in those categories if they do seek medical or psychiatric help, with the "MLC" heading still being regarded largely as an affair with the secretary or a red sports car. It takes a lot of observation and a willing patient (good luck!) to really determine how much of all of these things are all related to each other, THEN to figure out what to do about them. By then - your family is tired of hearing it, your friends would rather just get you a match.com profile, and you're pretty much having your own MLC from the stress. ;D ;)
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I too was curious about that. When I had my initial consultation with lawyer #1 I asked if they had any experience with "MLC", and they asked "what is that", so I told them what it stood for, and I got the response "yeah, my MLC car is a mercedes convertible" :o
When I approached lawyer #2 about it (she is also a judge), she readily admitted that the courts (where I am anyway) do NOT recognize MLC.
-T
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becker, I have struggled with this for 4 years now.
I have accepted that the medical community and most people do not understand this.
It is only when it happens to "them" that they get it.
It is not a normal thing that happens to people. It is odd.
It doesn't look like anything that makes any sense so they explain it the only way that makes sense to them.
"People change." "People grow apart." "You need to move on."
It does nothing to help us, but those are the answers we get.
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I have gotten that the MLCers were always like this, that they just got tired of playing along.
The attorneys I have spoken with thus far seem to have knowledge of it but even they seem to take that view, or else they don't seem to have any experience with anyone ever coming out of it.
I guess too, that we LBSers aren't the most believable people at first with us being shell shocked, dropping drastic amounts of weight, and other physical symptoms! Still, it seems like this would merit some attention-a group of people largely in the same age group saying and doing all the same crazy things.
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It IS really strange that not more people understand it. There are so many other disorders that one can't wrap their brain around because they have not experienced it or have not known someone with it. Why is this one so different? I suppose it's like people say, that most would just move on, assuming the MLCer was done.
I had NO IDEA that's what my exH was going through when he left. I pretty much took him at his word that he was no longer in love, plus he wanted to drink and had been a royal pain for a good year anyway. I will say that in that case, I totally did not pursue him and he never once made any signs of wanting to come back. It will be 10 years ago on Saturday. Reading this forum about all the other MLCers was the only way I'd ever have related what he did to an MLC and he was and still is just as script as any of the rest of them. If it weren't for the kids, he'd have been a vanisher...pretty much is except for birthdays and Christmas.
It still boggles my mind that they can be the same, yet different. Had my current MLCer walked away like my exH did, I never would've known about this at all. I only started looking things up because he was saying he didn't want to be with me, yet here he was almost every other week for the first nine months. It made no sense to me so here I am with the rest of you. I guess that's what concerns me with the current one...I never pursued the first one at all and he never came back...I want this one back and the advice here is to NOT pursue. NOT pursuing the last time ended me up alone. Nobody really knows the right answers to this at all.
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I must say that "our" MC did point out that my H was/is having a MLC. He didn't use the word MLC, he used 50-year old crisis (I think that maybe that's because that expression is more common in our country) Also, got another friend who's H also suffers from MLC, their MC also didn't use MLC as a word but pointed out in session that unless her H got himself some individual counseling, which he needed, this sessions is not going to be fruitful. Our MC, did explain some to me some of the weird stuff my H did and why, why I was the bad guy and the OW was all painted in white colors etc. (The most I got from pages like this one and also a lot of reading about male depressions and how society misses the depressions since the symptoms are so different). My city has even a special "unit" for men in crisis. But as they pointed out to me when I called them; "even if you put all the Kings horses together, they could not drag him here. Men (maybe true for women don't know) just don't get help until it is really bad. I also read somewhere that men almost never seek help for the depression, per se, they seek help for more visual signs, like bad sleeping patterns, headaches, back hurts etc. or when they lost their wife's and are devastated over the divorce, lost of children etc. But I totally agree with you that society should take this issue more seriously. On the other hand, what could have been done during the stage when we, LBS, started to see the changes, got the lying/blame/cheating/strange behavior, usually during "replay"? Some do file and take legal action when they get physical abused. I got all the 4 different abuses but I still didn't file, shame on me, but the verbal, psycological and emotional abuse is difficult to get evidence from.
Friends and family, Well that's a tough one! "Our" friends, that I've spoken with after this summer they do understand that something is not OK with H and is given me full support. One friend who knows my H pretty well (not from my country but moved close this autumn) called some friends (psychologist) of his in India and they "confirmed" that my story was correct and that my H was having a "mlc" (didn't use the word) Family, our sons do get it, my H brother does not. First I think they did find my H behavior pretty strange but they change their minds, don't know if this is due to manipulating and lies from H or if they just are feed up with him, might be that they just don't care (very easy) or if "blood is thicker than water" no matter what "blood" does (they have not shown any care for our sons at all during this time, adult sons 24+25, but still not asked one question about how they are cooping with what their dad is doing. But my xSIL, she supports me and get the hole mlc/depression thing, but she did herself date (was the OW) to a mlc-guy, lasted 15 months or so until he broke down in tears and she left him. He went back to his wife but she gets everything and remembers how it was exactly the same from what I told and tell her about mlc. But I think I'm the only one who can see my H dark eyes, grey skin etc. Sons say that they see that he does look tired but he has not yet wanted to talk about it, not to anyone.
My H's coworkers (I don't know them) did unfriend the OW on FB, so did my H and I'm pretty sure they broke up, even if my H haven't said anything to anyone but something has happen since I've seen photos of the OW still together with her H and that H plus friends of him from work "unfriend" (the OW did belong to the same circle of friends) that does not verified that they understand mlc only that something happened with this "love story" and that it possibly broke down, I know.
Long reply but very interesting topic!
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Hi Beckergabriel,
This is a very valid point as the psychiatric and medical communities as well as the justice ( what justice ) system know about Mlc but will rarely admit to it.
To my knowledge I am unaware of impiracle evidence to prove midlife crisis is real, on ther other hand with 2600 plus members on this board alone we all can't be wrong or deluded, the denial of Mlc seems to echo across the western world possibly because of media advertising of living the perfect life and readily available cosmetic surgery to fight off the signs of ageing and our advanced medical communities to keep us going.
Now this isn't true of other non western countries and if there is impiracle data to prove I'm wrong I will be glad to look it over. Now take this as a scenario, let's say midlife crisis was recognised as a disease or mental affliction and recognised in the DSM-5 diagnosis guide. Right all the symptoms depression, mania etc are present and the diagnosis is made that he/she is indeed in Mlc .
What could the ramifications be if the went for an interview and on their CV it said under medical history Mlc, also would people claim on insurance policies that they have an incurable disease or condition. Would a judge let them take the stand if they are manic or depressed you get my drift. It would open a massive can of worms that would cost governments astronomical sums of money which they could be spending elsewhere .
Just my theory
It's far easier for the system to turn their backs let divorces happen and rake in the money from the taxes it generates and then rake in even more taxes when they have to strive to rebuild their shattered futures.
Personally with the amount of divorces going on today I think there should be a mental health evaluation of all parties before it starts as anyone who is in the divorce process will be stressed Mlc or not.
Regards
Jackolar
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2. Family & Friends- MLCers will typically show their best and most sane behavior to family and friends. Family and Friends may not like what they see. They may not like the decisions being made by the affected person, but at most I feel that they would say that the affected person is exhibiting some "extreme behavior" with regard to emotions and decisions being made. But nothing beyond this.
Eventually they all see through the fog,
Covenantkeeper a long time poster here just posted on FB how all her husbands brothers have now disowned him and she is the only one concerned about him.
He has now vanished and bomb drop was over 5 years ago.
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This topic is one that all of us think of, more than likely, on weekly basis.
My thoughts are as follows. There are several issues that we are battling against with MLC. First, it's a very individualized process, although 2600 people on this site seems like a large number, compared to the age group of 35-55 year old's in the industrialized western world, it doesn't even register. Second, unlike many other "diseases" that people contract, our spouses aren't willing participants that want to get diagnosed, because they don't see it as their issue, they see us as their issue. Thirdly, most people don't like to get involved in any relationship issues between two people, even if they are close relatives. They feel as though its none of their business and want to stay out of it, even though they may see the dramatic changes in their relative. The old adage, that blood is thicker than water is an appropriate description.
We are also battling time. Time is both an ally and an enemy. Time and patience, ends up revealing to everyone that the MLCer comes into contact with, how absolutely deranged that they are, but it takes time for this to occur. Time is an enemy because it does take time for the MLCer's mask to fall away revealing the irrational person underneath. Why do you think that so many of the MLCer's end up losing their jobs? It's because time reveals the pain and hurt within them. That pain and hurt, which was originally taken out on the LBSer is now turned against ANYONE, when the MLCer can't project onto the LBSer any longer. This is the point when their coworkers finally see what the LBSer was exposed to many months earlier. This is also when the relatives and friends see the disturbed individual and recognize the shift in their personality.
The medical community is always behind the times on most diseases. The reason? They need a larger subset of people to complain about it, bring hard evidence to them about it, so that they can use it to form hypothesis and then test those hypothesis. As I said earlier, they need willing subjects to want to find out what is wrong with them. The issue is that this "disease" can't be corrected with current medical science. Medical science wants to treat symptoms, because they are the most evident, they have a difficult time in ferreting out the root cause and treating that. In addition, society in general isn't very good at dealing with mental illness. Mental illness is very complex and as such, is hard diagnose let alone treat. Once again, they treat the symptoms and not the root cause. The only thing they seem to be able to do is prescribe an anti-depressant, which only treats some of the symptoms. When it comes to counseling, as many have alluded to already, it's ineffective, because most counselors either dismiss it altogether or are ill equipped to deal with it. They need to be specialists in this arena and I am sure they are few and far between.
Another issue is, its a he said, she said, pointing of fingers. How is someone, whether it be a judge, a physician or a counselor supposed to know how this person behaved prior to MLC? They have the LBSer's information only and then IF they are able to get any information from the MLCer, all they do is spew lies and the only one that knows they are lies, is the LBSer. So, who are they to believe? Unless the LBSer has hard, documented evidence to provide to someone, then it is nearly impossible for the LBSer to prove their case. That then leaves the LBSer dealing with this all on their own. We then internalize it and it manifests itself through depression, weight loss, continual negative thoughts and on and on. We are left to our own, to struggle through this madness. The only way we get any understanding is when we band together on forums such as this. We finally have the continuity from others going through the same thing that validates we aren't crazy and that this is a more widespread issue than most people understand or believe exists.
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When I asked my s11's IC about Mid Life Crisis he said that he was very familiar with a "grouping" of symptoms and actions that people call mlc, but he wouldn't put that name to it. Well, a rose by any other name as the saying goes! ;)
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I have at least six friends at the moment who don't even realise their spouses are going through a mlc but to me it's plain to see
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Hi Neo , I can see your point of view in this but without impiracle evidence it won't stand up to scrutiny. The fact nothing has been proven about Mlc raises doubt to the factual existence of this phenomenon really exists. My point however smalll the sample globally on this site of approx 2600 affected left behind spouses is significant to the western world as if it was Ebola in such a small sample we would be on red alert.
Regards
Jackolar
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... My point however smalll the sample globally on this site of approx 2600 affected left behind spouses is significant to the western world as if it was Ebola in such a small sample we would be on red alert.
Regards
Jackolar
This is over my head, but also how many people have went through divorces that never found hero spouse? Also, I can't recall where I read it, but it seems to me that "MLC" is not present in some other cultures...specifically less advanced cultures that have "rights of passage". In short, it seems to be a phenomenon only present in the "westernized" world...
-T
PS I like the attorney's take on it-"This is how they were all along, they just got tired of playing along." I hate to be cynical, but lets face it, we live in a "me, ME, ME!!!" society. As long as the lawyers get PAID, do they honestly care what the cause of divorce was?
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I stumbled on a scary reason... because counselors and mental health professionals don't know A THING about MLC! A few months ago I was trying (desperately) to find a support group for MLC. NONE exist. I was so desperate that I was even trying to find a group for the MLCer, in hopes that the leader (counselor, whatever) would put me in touch with the spouse of the MLCer. Again, none existed. There is a very large, very good teaching hospital in the area with a mental health department and even THEY had no resources. THEY referred me to other entities, all of whom had no resources either.
Well, in one of my many phone calls, I was speaking with a professional counselor (not sure what their credentials are) whom I asked if she had any resources for MLC, she said "yeah, me". In other words, she had "gone through" a MLC. She went on to clarify that "EVERYONE goes through a MLC". Trying not to sound like I was the authority on the subject (since I'm not & I wasn't the one in the conversation w/ the credentials), I told her "my understanding is that EVERYONE goes through a MLTransition, and you only experience a crisis if you have (major) issues from childhood". She sounded as if she had gotten a little offended & defensive after I 'suggested' that.
Now, please correct me if I'm wrong, but, I'm pretty sure I'm right about how that works(?).
Anyhow, in my mind I thought no wonder I can't find any resources other than online, because not many people understand (in as much as it can be understood, lol) MLC!
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Rosetint, when I was early on, that was one of the FIRST things I did-try to find a support group to cater to MLC. Non-existent. I probably would have had better luck locating a real live unicorn.
Plenty of "divorce" support groups...LOTS of those, but none specifically catering to MLC.
-T
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Rosetint, I think many of us here on this board had similar experiences to you.
The contrast between the persona in the year prior to BD and BD itself, was such a contrast to who our spouse was before that we just KNOW that something serious is up.
I too searched in vain for help and support. Nothing at all forthcoming until I found this site.
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Hi TN,
Yes! PLENTY of divorce support groups. Just don't feel as though I fit in there. I would love to see at least a 'Separated' support group. Don't get me wrong, I'm thankful for online groups, but, I would really love to get together w/ people IRL. I'm feeling as though I NEED more support in my life because of going through this. Who couldn't do with more friends on a good day, let alone a terrible season? As it is, I have a very small support circle & know I need more support now.
Haha, here's another reason! I am having a terrible time posting anything. I can NEVER read the verification codes & am constantly being told the letter I typed don't match the picture. It makes me want to give up posting. :\
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Hi kikki,
Yeah, that contrast is pretty drastic! Not kidding, I think I have PTSD because of it. I never quite know how to put it into words, but I feel so much 'trauma' when I think of how it all has played out. :(
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I probably would have had better luck locating a real live unicorn.
LOL!
I tried a support group for people whose spouse weed having an affair. It was clear to me about half the people there had an MLCer, but they all had their heads shoved up and were convinced of they followed the literature, their wayward spouse would come home. The moderator was absolutely clueless about MLC and shut me down the couple of times I mentioned it. And then months after I never returned they emailed me to see why I stopped coming. If you can be open enough to listen and learn, you aren't being supportive.
Overall, I agree with Neo. I liken MLC to MS (which I have). MS is a difficult disease to dx. Like MLC, there are certai similarities (e.g. Script) that patients will exhibit, but they are not universal. There is no true course for the disease. Some are lucky, like me, and have a very mild case. Others fare far worse, like a friend from HS who died in here 40s because of the awful disease. The medical community doesn't know the cause of MS, but research thinks there are multiple factors that contribute. Many people don't have a clue about MS. Can't tell you. The number of times I've patiently explained they no, I. not one of Jerry's kids. MLC is similar. Really, how can you help someone who isn't experiencing the insanity understand that this is your reality. MLC defies logic similarly to the way MS does because the presentation is freaking crazy. One minute I can feel physically fine, and the next I'm writing on the floor with tears streaming down my face because my "painless" disease has triggered muscle spasms in my back lasting for hours (and trust me, they freaking hurt!). The man I'm married to will be quiet for awhile then decide to mess with me. Just as I can't predict what the disease is going to do, I can't predict what he is going to do.
I just realized I've lived most of my adult life on a roller coster.
Anyway, as Neo said, a big part of the problem is that the MLCer isn't willing to get the help they need and since we are dealing with mental health issues, there let is compounded.
Jack, I completely understand what you're saying about empirical evidence; however, someone with the appropriate training could gather quite a bit by visiting forums such as this. It may not be the strongest evidence, but since we are dealing with mental health, it seem to me the best that can be done is to extrapolate information using existing evidence. Medical science is focused on quantitative evidence; however, there are many studies in other disciplines that accept we can learn a significant amount using qualitative data. Phenomenology would be a very appropriate theoretical framework for a study about MLC. The problem is, researchers need to be interested.
Until we get past the Dr. Phil approach to MLC (what a horrible episode!) and really researchers delve deeply into MLC, it's going to remain a stereotypical joke, IMO. Hopefully that time will come.
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Hi kikki,
Yeah, that contrast is pretty drastic! Not kidding, I think I have PTSD because of it. I never quite know how to put it into words, but I feel so much 'trauma' when I think of how it all has played out. :(
Absolutely Rosetint - I do think we suffer a form of PTSD, without a doubt.
LOL at the unicorn :)
I agree with all you said Medusa. We have threads in the archives dedicated to this discussion. It's a while since it's surfaced.
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I liken MLC to MS (which I have). MS is a difficult disease to dx.
This is what I have read for the reason it is not recognized. There are just too many other things that are often occurring simultaneously that can cause the emotional and physical symptoms, behaviors and hormonal changes observed in MLCers. In my wife's case she lost both parents plus both of my parents, became an empty nester, was diagnosed with hypothyroidism, was diagnosed with multiple food allergies, is perimenopausal, is potentially a candidate for a hysterectomy due to severe gyno problems, and was transferred to a stressful new job. I read on here about other potential issues such as low testosterone and I'm sure all of you can add many other items to the list. So what exactly is attributable to MLC?
I completely understand what you're saying about empirical evidence; however, someone with the appropriate training could gather quite a bit by visiting forums such as this.
It's not unusual for a field to receive no interest until somebody who is affected by it acquires the credentials and begins to study it. Dr. Elaine Aron is the foremost authority on highly sensitive people. She has a PhD in clinical depth psychology and began studying highly sensitive people because she is one. She would actually be a good one to tackle MLC because her and her husband Jack study the psychology of love and close relationships.
Yeah, that contrast is pretty drastic! Not kidding, I think I have PTSD because of it. I never quite know how to put it into words, but I feel so much 'trauma' when I think of how it all has played out. :(
I've been referred for PTSD treatment due to the trauma related to BD. My therapist didn't believe in either MLC or BD as a trigger for PTSD but she does now.
Don't get me wrong, I'm thankful for online groups, but, I would really love to get together w/ people IRL. I'm feeling as though I NEED more support in my life because of going through this. Who couldn't do with more friends on a good day, let alone a terrible season? As it is, I have a very small support circle & know I need more support now.
I went to Alanon tonight and we spent the entire session talking about detaching, at my request. And I have phone numbers for multiple people from my Alanon group that I can call anytime. I just identify my wife as an addict and they all understand. And it's true, the MLCer is an addict who is trying to self-medicate through a variety of addicitve substances, including illicit relationships, alcohol, and drugs. Many of the people who attend Alanon live with active alcoholics and they can tell you all about crazy addictive behavior and they understand emotional pain.
I have at least six friends at the moment who don't even realise their spouses are going through a mlc but to me it's plain to see
My boss is now in his fourth year of getting a divorce. Even though his wife started it she repeatedly turns down reasonable offers that are clearly in her best interest. He says she's just not rational. After I told him about my wife and explained about MLC he's now convinced his wife is also going through an MLC.
The issue is that this "disease" can't be corrected with current medical science. Medical science wants to treat symptoms, because they are the most evident, they have a difficult time in ferreting out the root cause and treating that.
Problem is they change so much that they might diagnose my wife with Narcissistic Personality Disorder but this is not the person she was a year ago. I think the best thing they could do for MLC, plus for society in general, is to quit making it so easy to get a divorce.
2. Family & Friends- MLCers will typically show their best and most sane behavior to family and friends. Family and Friends may not like what they see. They may not like the decisions being made by the affected person, but at most I feel that they would say that the affected person is exhibiting some "extreme behavior" with regard to emotions and decisions being made. But nothing beyond this.
Eventually they all see through the fog,
With my wife it was very apparent to close family and friends that there was something wrong. She simply was not the person we knew. Still isn't. Even friends are shocked by her unexpected behavior. My daughter thought early on that my wife was bipolar and when I ask her if she saw her mom today she'll say no, not really. My granddaughter says her grandma often acts like a little kid now. We can tell she's not the same.
Absolutely Rosetint - I do think we suffer a form of PTSD, without a doubt.
There's a book on Amazon about PISD (Post Infidelity Stress Disorder). When I told my therapist about it she copied down the info so she could order a copy.
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I stumbled on a scary reason... because counselors and mental health professionals don't know A THING about MLC!
They do. There is this thread, started by Thundarr, who is a health professional (and we have other health professionals on the board) called MLC and the Medical Community - http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3602.0
Reading the thread it is obvious health professionals, of at least some, know about MLC. The thread also has the reasons why they may not want to know.
Jack, of recent I've been translating some scientific stuff (nothing MLC or health related). The samples they use are of the same size, sometimes smaller, sometimes a little bigger, than the approx 2600 affected left behind spouses.
It is a nice sample. Variables can be introduced to it, etc. We have the empirical evidence here (and from real life cases). Yes, if it was Ebola, red alert had been raised.
MLC is not that difficult to diagnosis. Married person for decades, leaves spouse, acts like a teen, drinks, is depressed, monsters, is obstructive, etc. All one has is to be familiar with it.
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Hi Anjae,
Thank you for the reply and I will look at the thread you suggest.
I agree 2600 people affected by the fall out from Mlc is significant and there are other boards to add to the figure. The disruption and pain is multiplied by the children and extended family being effected by Mlc also. If there was impiricle evidence which was scrutinised by the scientific community and found to be valid it would be great. Sadly I'm unaware to date of any study that has taken place and found Mlc to exist. The problem seems to be increasing as social networks and dating sites allow unrestricted access to potential affair partners
Wooing people with flowery words. It would be interesting if anyone knows of a study of broken relationships caused by social media. I think it is dangerous myself as there's a lot of temptation.
Regards
Jackolar
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It continues to amaze me, that there has been next to no research done on this phenomena, we all call MLC. As Kikki said, we have been pondering this question from the very earliest days of this forum. It seems impossible to me, that some scientist who has to do a thesis or some such thing has not "happened" upon such an interesting phenomena.
As you say, it is effecting many people. I can only assume that until it either effects the "financial" stability of our country or some brave politician, nothing is going to be done about it. Especially, if it continued to be viewed as some prosperous, foolish, bald headed, paunchy, old dude, in a red corvette with a 20 something, bleach blond, bimbo on his arm. Unless it happens to you, nobody wants to look too closely for fear it happens to them.
Good conversation you are having here. hugs Stayed
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Great topic and discussion. Totally agree with Neo.
It makes me want to set up a face to face support group.
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Then do it Chookie! Often, all anything takes is ONE person to get something started. Youtube your first meet-up! I bet you would be astounded at how many people follow you.
Hugs Stayed
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I forgot about this....
The one woman at work who has really helped me through my situation is also taking college courses. Part of the reason she has been so helpful is her mom ran off for a year and a half and got pregnant with a love child (her mom and step-dad I believe it was reconciled). Anyway, MLC is covered in her psychology textbook, so maybe there is hope...
-T
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The problem seems to be increasing as social networks and dating sites allow unrestricted access to potential affair partners
Wooing people with flowery words. It would be interesting if anyone knows of a study of broken relationships caused by social media. I think it is dangerous myself as there's a lot of temptation.
Regards
Jackolar
Very true. My stbx husband just confessed to me this past weekend that he met the ow on Facebook.
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It continues to amaze me, that there has been next to no research done on this phenomena, we all call MLC. As Kikki said, we have been pondering this question from the very earliest days of this forum. It seems impossible to me, that some scientist who has to do a thesis or some such thing has not "happened" upon such an interesting phenomena.
Scientist only fall upon things that they have an interest in and/or they can get funding for. Scientist also only tend to find what they are looking for. That is, if they are searching for blue and they happen to see yellow, they will tend to disregard yellow because yellow is not what they are looking for. Yet, yellow may be the real important thing.
Some how I don't think funding for research on MLC would be available. How many of those who grant the money have had a MLC and have absolutly no interest in having the issue being studied?
As you say, it is effecting many people. I can only assume that until it either effects the "financial" stability of our country or some brave politician, nothing is going to be done about it.
It is affecting many people, but it is also allowing many people to make huge amounts of money. In the grand scheme of things, MLC probably increases teh economy. Just think of how much stuff MLCer buy, the money lawyers make from it, etc. There are industries/professions, from law to home decor, that profit from MLC.
MLC is, probably, like drinking and smoking, it generates big bucks.
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I guess I have been pretty lucky because both my IC and our MC were ok with the concept of MLC. In fact it was the MC who first suggested MLC to me, citing Jung's work. We had some email discussion about MLC after the marriage counselling fizzled out. That's what sent me on the hunt that ended here at HS. My IC was a little more circumspect and didn't use the term MLC but talked of a "life crisis" while still linking it to all the factors we consider identify MLC particularly the FOO issues.
I've also explained MLC to my parents and my daughters (age appropriately) and it all makes sense to them. I haven't used the term MLC with friends but over the months conversations with various friends have shown me they understand H changed drastically, made illogical decisions and choices, and, as one friend said recently "interpreted a normal lull in the marriage as 'it's over', saw what he thought was greener grass so he left, and now he doesn't know how to come back" all with no prompting from me.
I think people are aware of MLC, just that it has become a parody so it isn't taken seriously. People joke about it because they are worried it might happen to them or to explain odd behaviours or decisions they make at transition points in their life that they are worried about being judged over.I did it myself when I couldn't decide what to do after having my D13 and decided to go back to school, I laughingly told people I had a bit of a MLC. Little did I know!! Conway's book does discuss the life crisis women often have in their 30s ...
My Hs MLC was pretty easy to identify - he bought a sports car (black though, not red) and had an affair with his secretary. They now live together. When I tell people about the secretary they just roll their eyes. If it was a different woman I think his decisions may have more credibility with others, but the secretary thing is such a cliche that they instantly understand there is something odd about all this.
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MLC is, probably, like drinking and smoking, it generates big bucks.
Truth!! And Viagra and Cialis are already treating the part of the crisis that most sufferers worry about. ::) What else is there to study? ;)
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The question here is "how would your life be different if society recognized MLC the way you wish?" What are you looking for that you are not finding? And I think I know the answer, but A CURE is not to be.
There is A LOT of medical and academic research on MLC. I know, I just threw out a knee high stack (I am short, but it was over a foot high!) of just academic papers related to MLC. And that does not include the books. Almost every book that talks about personality development, or life cycle addresses some form of midlife change, transition, adjustment, etc. And books about men are virtually unanimous in its recognition.
One thing you HAVE to remember is that when you go to see an IC, or an attorney, whatever is up with your spouse is NOT their concern, and especially attorneys will steer away from that topic. They are NOT ICs and bill by the hour, they want to take your case, win your case, and get paid for your case. The more you want to talk about how f'ed up your spouse is, the less they will want to be involved--remember attorneys like to win, and if you try to give them more and more evidence of their irrationality, etc., it will seem less likely they will win. There is a great article I think I can still find by an attorney, for attorneys, on divorcing a narcissist, THAT is the only thing you need to give your attorney, because in a nutshell, whether they were before the MLC, or will be after, they are one in the battle, and it is a great piece.
And ICs will also try to deny MLC because giving credence to some mysterious "condition" that is out of your control, and you characterize as something that might be fleeting, is NOT going to help them help you make it through your own life. That is why Alanon can be so helpful to LBSs.
And then when it comes to family and friends and acquaintences, there are lots of reasons, but one of them is also partly that they know the truth, and not all of it is good. I know a couple men who are clearly having MLCs who left their wives--but I also know, for better, or worse, their wives were VERY difficult. I still would never say they were right, and I do believe they will pay for it down the road, BUT those sweet, compliant, and hot young things actually, on a ledger, stand pretty equal to their wives when viewed through a lens of "what is good for ME, right now?"
And, as I sit here, five years out, I still wonder if my ex actually had an MLC, if he was always a closeted NARC, or if he just, truly went through an MLT and objectively assessed what he wanted for the rest of his life and his AUTHENTIC self decided that having a wife who watched sports and was in his field was truly the most important thing to him--that while he TRIED to hold "family" values, he had to face his truth. HOW could I ever KNOW, and will her ever actually KNOW?
This is where you have to do THE WORK, the Byron Katie WORK? Is it true, how do I know it to be true, what would happen to me, if it were NOT true, and what do I do with that? Standing or not standing is a choice you have to make regardless of MLC, regardless of the progress through the tunnel, or any indicators. And DETACHMENT is the ONLY thing that will save you, whether you stand, or don't stand. Research does say that 50% of men come out of crisis happier, and 50% are worse, and that has nothing to do with whether they are going to stay in their Ms, or not.
I don't think society ignores it as much as we might sometimes think. I just think it is difficult to diagnose, has many other symptoms and co-occurring conditions that complicate the diagnosis, and in the end, has no cure, or preventative, so why bother... There are lots of studies that show correlations for MLC, BUT we ignore those. When I was 24, what credence should I have given to studies that said men who had fathers who had MLCs, had NARC mothers, and a affective focus on the future were at significantly higher risk of MLC? How many people here would have?
In the end, it is about YOU, regardless of how you got where you are right now, with your attorney, your IC, your accountant, it is about YOU. What do you want to be, to do, to achieve. What dreams are you going to live out if your partner NEVER comes back? That is all that matters to them and that is all that should matter to you, until and unless your MLCer shows appropriate signs of being willing to do the work to be a part of YOUR life. Love and light, ll
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The question here is "how would your life be different if society recognized MLC the way you wish?" What are you looking for that you are not finding? And I think I know the answer, but A CURE is not to be.
nderstandment and support from the legal, health system, social security, etc, like the one other mental illnesses (in my country addiction/alcoholism are considered mental illnesses) have. It makes a world of difference in many ways.
Drug addiction and alcoholism do not have a cure. Yet, they are recognised conditions. And why isn’t a cure for MLC possible since it has to do with depression? It is all about biochemistry.
I have no idea what matters to an IC, never went to one, but for a lawyer what matters is money. And, for those of us who have legal aid, and have to go to court it would really be different it MLC was recognised. At least under my country system it would.
Our dreams and asking why society does not recognise MLC are two different things. We can live our dreams and still want to know why.
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Anj, You're missing my point. Even depression is debated and difficult to diagnose, and it takes action on the part of the afflicted to lead SOMEONE to make that diagnosis and treat it. And yes, addiction is considered a disease, but even if you go to an IC for help with an addicted loved one, they will tell you exactly what they would tell us, which is to detach. And there are no truly reliable cures for depression or addiction, and even if the treatments work, the person has to be willing. There will NEVER come a day when an LBS will be able to drag a spouse to a clinic and have them diagnosed and treated for MLC--they would have to admit they are having one... So, the answer is the same as if your loved one is resistant to treatment for any ailment that affects your life--detach, let it go. Love and light, ll
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the person has to be willing.
I think this is the most important part!
Thanks LL!
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Excellently put LL. Nodded my head all the way through your post. Well done.
Sd
X
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Exactly Lisa Lives... EXACTLY! If your partner isn't willing to get help, then the gig is up.
Good points, as always! Thanks.
Hugs Stayed
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The question of this discussion is why MLC is so largely unrecognized by Society, not what the LBS must do if their spouse is having a MLC.
So, yes, I'm missing your point. Because I'm not approaching the question from an emotional point of view nor from what a LBS most do, but from a research/science point of view. And from that point of view MLC is not that complicate, it is related to biochemical factors. Therefore, from a strictly scientific point of view, the matter is solvable, or, at least metigatable.
Depression also isn't that hard to diagnosis. Bipolar may be, but any GP can diagnose depression. At least its most common forms.
The issue of a LBS being, or not being, able to drag a MLC to a doctor is, again, different both from why MLC is so unrecognised by society and from having a scientific interest in what causes MLC.
So, for someone like me, the being or not being able to take the MLCer to a doctor, is totally different from my interest in the neurochemical and/or hormonal, issues that cause MLC.
It is true, there are no reliable, or at least no 100% reliable, treatment for addiction. As for depression, it depends of what type of depression we are talking about. Situational depression is treatable, PPD also is. With major clinical depression often a person has to live with it throughout all their lives (but so does someone with high blood pressure). But the condition can be mitigatable. Not just with meds, but with lifestyle changes.
However, none of the above changes the fact that, in the future, it may be possible to treat all sorts of depression, addiction, prevent MLC, etc.
Heck, there are teams of scientist working, and having results, on prevent people from ageing as well as scientists working to modify the information of cancer cells by giving those cells the information that they are not ill, but healthy cells and, in doing so, reverting the process.
Also, since some of us have MLCer who did knew they were depressed, some of which were given standard treatment for depression, that does not seem to work, at least not early on or during Replay, if doctors looked differently at MLC they may have a way of mitigate it.
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I think MLC is more well known than is officially acknowledged..I've talked to more than a few MH professionals,attorneys and judges..and in small groups they smile and nod and get it right away..but it's bad politics for them to talk about it in public..it would be called sexist etc etc...even though WE know it involves both genders...sexual politics is very territorial..for example...parental alienation has been officially denied for years...but as more fathers are accused of it..and with more shared custody demands, the more noise that it is (suddenly) real
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Anj, you clearly belong to the "take a pill and fix it" camp of mental health. I am NOT. I strongly believe that most forms of mild mental illness are not that, at all, that they are maladaptations to our bizarre way of life. I have ADHD, so does my son, my other son is probably AD without the HD. We were not made to sit at computers and do the work of our society. Our animal roots would have bred us to hunt and gather and, unfortunately, our evolution has not caught up... I think most people who are "depressed" are just not adapting well to their place in life. Anj, that's the problem. MOST MLCers are still very high functioning in some aspects of their life. MLC, regardless of what leads them to the dis-ease, is still a series of choices that they make to alleviate some form of internal malaise. Taking a pill to feel better does not necessarily eliminate the life review that leads to midlife questioning. WE call is a crisis because our spouses chose to leave us. I still argue that a pill might have led my exH to do it in a better way, but he still might have done his midlife review and decided that leaving me is his best option. And a happy pill might make it that much worse for me, at least seeing him be a little miserable makes me THINK he might be having some sort of crisis and not just taking a happy road to a better life...
And I still say, maybe, at best, 10% of our MLCers would have allowed themselves to admit that they might be "sick" and that was what was leading them to make "bad" choices. If they won't even go to therapy, who was going to convince them?
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Anj, you clearly belong to the "take a pill and fix it" camp of mental health. I am NOT. I strongly believe that most forms of mild mental illness are not that, at all, that they are maladaptations to our bizarre way of life.
LL A + B does not equal Z. I don't understand how you came to the above conclusion.
On the contrary, because today's crazy environment/lifestyle leads to extreme stress (of which I agree we are not able to handle from an evolutionary perspective), it leads to biochemical changes, as well as poor coping skills and strange thinking patterns and all of the rest of it.
Hence the 'mitigation' is not about taking a pill to fix it. Diet/lifestyle/exercise/supplements/medication/therapy etc may all be a part of the approach.
It's about looking at the big picture and looking at it from a holistic angle.
I personally think that if it was publicly recognised as a disorder, rather than being brushed under the carpet because it generates more income for lawyers etc that way, then LBS would not have the added insult of just being treated as the woman/man scorned, as more often than not, does occur.
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kikki, when you read stuff like this, something that could have been written by any of our spouses, how would you get ANY of them to admit they are wrong?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/divorced-moms/how-my-emotional-affair-b_b_6271236.html?utm_hp_ref=divorce&ir=Divorce
There are lots of people that are depressed and don't have MLCs. There are lots of people that get D'ed because their spouses have untreated depression and they can't live with it anymore, some of them are also having MLCs, because of it. I know a man who admits to leaving his wife in the heat of an early MLC, but knows it was for the best and though she has stood for over 20 years, through his M and D to the crazy OW, he would never go back to her. He said he knows he handled it wrong, that he had "stuff" to deal with, but he does not regret it. I also know a crazy man who has lived in MLC for years, and knows it, but says he likes it. He is wealthy, parties all the time and is on wife number 4, who is young and VERY hot...
How would you define an MLC? Do you REALLY believe there could one day be a test, and what would it show? and what would the outcome be, what would you wish? Do you think people will all go to the doctor at midlife, and get a test that would show a likelihood, and then what, would they wear a scarlet letter M that tells people all their decisions are suspect? What about that battered or otherwise abused woman who finally grows a backbone at midlife and decides in the heat of an MLC that she doesn't care anymore about what she has to lose, that she's leaving. Would the "test" somehow make her less able to leave her abusive spouse?
Diagnosing mental illness is one thing when people want to be acknowledged as somehow disabled and in need of treatment. But, here we will always come back to, MLCers don't want to be treated, they don't think there is anything wrong with them. So, by the "take pill and make it better" piece, I meant that you think you can go to the doctor get a diagnosis and a prescription (whether it's for a pill or exercise, doesn't matter) and it's all good. So, my question stands, what would society look like if more people acknowledged MLC? What do you think the diagnosis would be, how would it be made, and how would your life, or your case be different? Just wondering how you take it to its ultimate realization.
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Great posts LL:
Really got me thinking.
Read that Huff post article this weekend, in my humble opinion not an MLC'r - Why NO BLAME.
What has always characterized my X's behavior is the absolute inability to take responsibility for her actions, everything is the fault of the LBS - Too fat, too controlling, workaholic, moody - nothing to date ever has been her fault. Of course she can't even begin to do the minimum required through our marital settlement agreement and again not her fault.
Questioning your life and the decisions you have made are routine in this day and age, but blaming everything on your spouse because of how you feel is a whole different pathway.
I asked the counselor who was handling some post divorce co-parenting counseling what was meant by "I love you but I'm not in love with you". After fidgeting for several seconds the response was that spouse had "checked out". My comment - Why am I to blame for them checking out, why can't they own that decision." Oh the quiet.
Personal note - I thought for years I was manic depressive however when I realized I was manic for like 9 seconds every three years it provided an avenue for treatment. I don't blame my depression and decisions I've made in life on anyone other than myself.
Peace on your journey's Brothers and Sisters
Mac
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kikki, when you read stuff like this, something that could have been written by any of our spouses, how would you get ANY of them to admit they are wrong?
Agree LL. Very few MLCers admit that anything at all is wrong.
Mine was one that has on many occasions. He also was a rare MLCer that agreed to go to therapy because he knew 'something shifted in his head' and it was not right.
Didn't change a thing, because the therapists (yes plural), knew nothing at all of what was occurring for him. They all validated his need to find 'happiness' any way that he chose.
So, by the "take pill and make it better" piece, I meant that you think you can go to the doctor get a diagnosis and a prescription (whether it's for a pill or exercise, doesn't matter) and it's all good.
This is where our philosophies differ wildly. I have little faith that medical doctors will be the ones to lead the way out of this in the future.
Think it's going to take bigger shifts throughout all society than that.
I love this in the front of Jim Conway's 'Men in Mid life crisis'.
'Trapped in silence'
Years ago The New York Times ran an anonymous but pointed letter which read in part, 'I was forty years old and my husband forty-six when the eccentric behaviour began. An otherwise reasonable and family-loving man suffered, not depression as we understood it, but rage, fatigue, incommunicability, suspicion, hostility. But every incident was my fault supposedly. I was the woman and I was alleged to be in the change of life. Unfortunately, doctors, psychiatrists, men in general, have kept it all under the rug where they have swept it themselves. They are in terror of the truth of acknowledging a condition which affects their behaviour beyond their control, but which they readily ascribe to women without mercy.
As the book was first published in the late '70's - I can only but imagine that piece was written in the NYTimes many years before then.
What has changed since then?
I think this silence is what needs to change. It will be interesting to see what changes after that.
Without this silence, when desperate LBS drag their MLCer along to couples counselling, the therapist won't brightly say 'oh I think you're both FABULOUS people, but it's not my job to save your marriage'.
The therapist will be able to outline exactly what we are both dealing with - and be able to support the LBS with information about how best to navigate it for themselves. Instead of treating us as though we are completely barmy because we are such poor deluded things.
Dealing with a MLCer is incredibly challenging. Not all disappear out of our lives. Some refuse to agree to settlements. The MLCer, being cray cray - we are not surprised by.
The attitude of many of the 'professionals' that we are forced to engage with to try to protect ourselves (lawyers eg) can be abominable due to their lack of knowledge.
Some understanding of what we are dealing with would go a long way in easing the way through these situations for the LBS and children.
Whether that would lead to any changes in whether MLCers get help or not is not the topic under discussion.
Although I do suspect that some would choose to take a different pathway if they were able to recognise what was happening to them. My H knew something was very wrong with his thinking, but if I didn't know about MLC to this extent, then you can bet your cotton socks that he certainly didn't know about it either.
Would it have made a difference if he had known what it was? I have no idea, but it might have.
That is what the potential for the future is. The LBS and children having more understanding around them. After that? Only time will tell.
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Really Lisa? I also do not understand how you arrived at such conclusion.
I do think MLC is a disorder. Mostly induced by stress and other out of control hormones. But MLC has been around for thousands of years, so our current lifestyle is not the only thing causing it. But our way of life does push it to the 10th.
The environment we live in alters our genes, as well as the chemistry of our brain. And there is also the hormones. MLCers have all sorts of hormones running wild. Calm those down and they may start to see things a little differently. Hormones running wild affect brain chemistry, brain chemistry affects the body, etc.
I already told you what would change Lisa, the type of support from health, legal, and other state institutions. How did society change when being an alcoholic or a drug addict was better understood? Several support means for those afflicted by it, and for their relatives, were put in place.
Not so much a test for MLC, but in the future we will know much more about hormones, brain chemistry, brain areas, how they are affected and how, in turn, they affect us. The diagnosis would be that hormones are on the red and several parts of the brain, who are key to wellbeing and sound mind, are being affected.
Of course people could choose to ignore it. Like there are people who ignore their high blood pressure or diabetes.
It will be possible to know (in fact it already is) is someone is over stressed, if their cortisol level is too high, etc.
Mr J knew something was wrong with him. Not only he knew he was depressed but he also told me he was depressed. And he also told the doctor from his company. However traditional approach to depression does not seem to work with MLC, and the doctor did not knew better (nor, at the time, did I).
Not certain if doctors will lead the way, but they will be part of the change/shift. I think it will be a combination of several types of scientists, doctors, laypeople, etc.
If the woman is a battered woman I don’t think there would be a single person here falting her for, finally, had the courage of leaving her abusing spouse. Do drug addicts wear the letters DA and alcoholics the letter A? Do people with schizophrenia wear the letter S and people with bipolar the letter B? I don’t think so.
And what does society gains with MLC not being better known/not being recognised? Would it be an issue for you if MLC was preventable/mitigatable/treatable, Lisa?
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I guess I just don't see people in denial, I think the disconnect comes from disagreement over the origins and causes. I dislike many classifications of mental disorders, and do NOT think MLC should ever be considered a true disorder--it's a developmental phase, like post-partum depression, or adolescent maladjustment, not a true disorder, like schizophrenia. As a person with ADHD, I also find calling that condition a disorder insulting. There are lots of things I am good at, because of my "disorder" that regular people could never imagine. There are lots of people with severe dyslexia and other processing disorders that go on to do amazing things, despite their "disorder." Most of us have "things" about ourselves that we have to shape our lives around--whether it's overcoming childhood abuse, disordered parents, color-blindness, our own "disorders" or cognitive maladjustments--and most of us do.
I just disagree that MLC is a "disorder." I truly believe MLC is a personality crisis that results in fragile people who, when faced with the tough stuff at midlife, can no longer integrate all the masks and defense mechanisms they have always relied on. And when that happens, their shadow selves, their dark sides refuse to be held down, and they run. And that's it, it's as simple as that. I think "shark eyes" is exactly that--their shadow self, the one they have tried to suppress and bury and the one you never saw before. And I think that's part of the "denial" of MLC--it's the shame of it all. "Too bad for you your spouse was weak." And I really do think it comes down to that. For all the strength, and good stuff any of our spouses had, at midlife, something caused them to break, and they have to deal with it, but they don't WANT to, and that's where all the blame comes it.
And that's why it doesn't matter if it is "recognized." Sure there is depression associated with it, but EVERYONE, at some point in their lives faces situational depression. MOST people pull on their boots and get on with life. Some people do get diagnosed with true "mental health disorders" after an incidence of depression that rocks their world. But I think that is a SMALL percentage of MLCers. Most of them just go bat$h!te crazy because they can. I do think MLC is like addiction or other substance use disorders, which I also do not think are true disorders. I believe most abusers are self-medicating other disorders, so it is a symptom more than a disorder, but to call it a disorder often allows enabling and the same would be true for MLC.
Whether addicted to a drug, a woman, or a dream of a better future, every one of those "disordered" people make choices and I refuse to not hold them accountable for them. I totally ascribe to Alasko's law of personal limitations--"Everyone is always doing as well as they can within their personal limitations, their personal history, what they know and don’t know and what they’re feeling in that moment. If they could make a healthier decision, they would. This includes YOU." But in every action is a choice, and every drug addict and MLCer has moments of clarity where they CAN make different choices and choose not to. If you don't think that is true, how can you ever trust an addict, and at what point are they "recovered," or are they permanently disordered?
And I guess that's the crux of it, for me. I am not willing to give any MLCer an "excuse" for their choices or their behavior, and I am not willing to simply allow an LBS to claim victim to a spouse's disorder. Sure, it's hard, it's scary and it's downright confusing. But no matter what you call it, or how you think it may or may not be caused, or cured, the only thing you CAN do is take care of yourself. The rest is really up to the MLCer, and even if the person can go and get a test and be told their hormones are out of whack and they need to do X, Y, and Z to make it right, they might still choose to look at that hot young secretary and tell you you have no idea what you're talking about--because no medical test is going to force him to face his shame triggers and all the other junk from his childhood, or whatever, that he doesn't want to deal with...
And that's it, if MLC is a disorder, it is a disorder of denial, and that's the problem. My MLCer KNOWS MLC exists, we've talked about it so many times, in so many different people. He knew his very own father had one, but when he found himself in the EXACT same pair of shoes at almost the EXACT same age, somehow he was DIFFERENT...
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I agree with a lot of what you say LL. It just makes sense. Which doesn't mean I disagree with Anjae.
But to answer the question what would be different if MLC was recognised by society?
I think it would help alleviate some iof the humiliation I felt at being a discarded, unwanted, actively "un chosen" wife.
Perhaps that's a bit pathetic of me - and I'm bracing myself for reactions here - but I have felt humiliated to be so discarded and then so easily replaced.
I'm overcoming that slowly but part of me still feels that I was found wanting, insufficient and that society also views a discarded wife in that way.
I don't feel this way all the time. As I said I'm overcoming that. And no doubt this feeling stems from some FOO issue of my own. Stuff about societal expectations, role of women as wives and mothers ... Blah blah blah...
I guess I feel somehow held to blame for H leaving. Early on, I definitely believed that there were two people in a marriage therefore they were both responsible for the state of the relationship. Therefore I had to step up and acknowledge that, unwittingly, I shared responsibility for things falling apart.
I don't really feel responsibilie for this anymore. I'm not saying I'm perfect or that I was a perfect wife,just...I suppose... That choices were made that were outside my control. Not that I needed to be in control - but I did expect to be part of decisions being made about my marriage.
If society understood? I think there might be more support for theLBS .More sensitivity. More understanding. More compassion. More useful help and direction from counsellorsif they actually understood and believed. Less guilt. Less humiliation. Less shame. Less blame.
To be honest, I have to admit that I have not found others (ie society) are the cause iof my feelings of blame, humiliation, guilt. I haven't been blamed or shamed, only occasionally have I been told it must have been due to something I did or didn't do. These feelings are my own.
So maybe the big difference, if MLC was acknowledged by society, would be that i would understand what happened, understand what strategies were useful, and the path to my own healing would be smoother.
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I agree completely LLL. I too felt that way. I felt that marriages were between two people, therefore equal blame. Then this happened. I had no say. I wasn't consulted, I was told, this is how it is. I too was totally mortified and felt ashamed that I had not seen it coming. WTH.
I also believe that if it was acknowledged, the courts would go more in our favour. We are usually the one's being left, with the weaker career and the usually the children as well. I think it would be easier to protect the finances if it was acknowledged because one of the acknowledged problems with MLC is the excessive spending done by the MLCer. Often by the time the spouse realizes what is going on, half the savings are gone, or more. I did not experience this personally, but still this thing cost us a lot of money. My new life that I was setting up in Canada was not cheap.
I think that if there was more acknowledgment that it truly exists, it might be easier to have all bank accounts, savings accounts, pension accounts, even mortgages frozen and protected. The least the law can do is protect the children, so that their lives do not change as drastically as we often see. Often being left with barely enough to pay the bills and EAT. That is just wrong.
I just think the family needs to be more protected from this very selfish affliction. Not really sure what they could do, but at least freeze things other then for the daily expenses/mortgages etc. until a clearer picture is known.
No "flogging" from me LaughLoveLive... a few more safe guards I guess is what I am advocating for.
Hugs Stayed
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Oh LLL I felt the same way! Whew, its so comforting to have someone articulate what you have been feeling since BD!!!! Thank you!
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Yes, spot on LLL! I also agree with Stayed, in that maybe there would be more protection for spouses and children. I am strong, resilient, and doing the work on myself but I am also a 45yo woman with no career having to start from scratch. No matter how awesome I am, how I claw my way out of this-my future kind of sucks.
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LLL, I do get what you're saying. I AM hearing you and I do know how much it sucks. BUT, I still am not sure how you would diagnose it, and at what point those protections would kick in. As a public policy analyst, I always caution people to remember that you have to be careful what you build a program for, because you usually get it.
What you are addressing are two separate issues, not totally related to MLC. First is the perception and the shame of being left. That is internal, there is no way that will ever be erased for all women until and unless women are in the power position and they are the ones who choose. There will always be women who allow themselves to feel that way, and people who will enforce it--for so many reasons, all having to do with shame. Even though everyone I know has said my exH is having an MLC, it didn't stop me from feeling that... That is about how much worth we place on ourselves.
The other is the financial abandonment part that Joan Williams addresses so well in Unbending Gender. This is where we give up everything to be mothers, which leaves us vulnerable if we are left. That calls for a different kind of social contract that has nothing to do with MLC, either. Because, face it, there are men who are Aholes and when their wives leave them for good reason, they are also in the same boat, and that's not fair. And even people who part amicably where the woman gave up everything to be a full-time parent, but now has to go it alone. I totally get this part, I gave up my career because exH WANTED it that way, so I would never have to compete with him. If I had told knowlwegeable people about that 17 years ago, they would have told me to leave him then, but I would not have listened... That is about how much value society places on stay-at home parents.
But in both cases, even if more recognition of MLC would help, HOW would this diagnosis be made? Could a person be unwillingly dragged to the doctor and labeled MLC against theri wishes? I know two men whose exwives have both died of alcoholism in the last year who could have been accused of being MLCers five years ago when they left their wives, but the fact remains that their wives were active bipolar alcoholics and they had every reason to leave... What good would it have been to "label" them MLCers? And I still come back to the quietly suffering abused woman who finally at middle age decides she has the balls to leave. Maybe she IS an MLCer, if she gets the diagnosis slapped on her, would she have to go to court to justify leaving, and pay him support because she is the higher earner?
And I come back to the 17yo in Connecticut who is being forced into chemo against her will. I had a kid with a cancer diagnosis--we rejected treatment, and a year and six second opinions later, I got backing that I was right and it was an errant diagnosis. IF they had force him into treatment, I am sure he'd be dead. Even if you could drag an MLCer into the doctor for a diagnosis--what if he rejects treament? Or what if he does everything they say and he still wants to leave for his secretary? Does he finally get a pass, at that point, and is there even more shame for the wife because he made it through "treatment" and he's still leaving?
There is an interesting article that I looked at again as I was throwing out my stack of research. It was Polish study about MLC that said that people who were affectively future oriented had higher MLC indicators. I think THAT is something we see a LOT here, the person whose parents were never satisfied, who was always living for the NEXT best thing. That is their baggage, their s#$% that they have to unpack before they will ever be whole and ready for love. MLC happens to people who are not willing to face their stuff, and there are too many people who will never support that. Some people have in-laws who would support them, but very few--because then you open up all their baggage, and no one wants that.
I am not closed to the idea that you all might be right, but I am challenging you to think through what you would really want, and if it could work. I think society does recognize MLC, just as it recognizes that some people are malignant aholes, but unless THEY are willing to change, it's all a futile discussion...
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We are going to have to agree to disagree, Lisa. For me MLC is a disorder. Or maybe it would be more accurate to call it a condition. I also don't think PPD is a development phase. It is depression. If we start to see PPD as a development issue, the many people who already get neglected because of it, will be even more neglected.
There are several female members of the board who suffered from PPD and I don't recall any of them considering it a development issue. By that token all milder depressions would be a development issue. What is a development phase is midlife transition. Midlife crisis is an abnormal condition of a normal development phase. We all go through midlife adjustments, but not all of us have a midlife crisis.
To be fair, MLC is probably more of the real of the hormones than of the mental illnesses, but it remains a condition that causes lots of problems.
Why is calling ADHD a disorder insulting and not calling schizophrenia a disorder insulting? Just like with ADHD, there are lots of things that people with schizophrenia (or bipolar) can do, that often others cannot. There a huge number of brilliant people in the arts & sciences that suffered from mental illness. I have dyslexia, mild one (it tend to kick off big time when I'm tired and, usually, one thing is written and my mind reads another. Or I will write right instead of write and, for me, I have written write).
My younger sister had a much more serious level of dyslexia when she was a child, she required special learning and, to this day, languages, especially writing them remains challenging for her. Yet, nor me nor she have a problem with dyslexia being considered a disorder. And, ironically, I'm quite good with languages, I speak, write and read several, including on a professional level.
But I'm still failing to see what ADHD and dyslexia exclude the fact that midlife is a condition and/or disorder and why, just because we may suffer from something, it shouldn't be consider a serious issue. If it has to do with frail people, well, than me, at least me and Ready2 are frail because we both had a mild MLC. However nor me nor Ready2 run. And, technically, none of us was in midlife (now I am). Nor was Mr J. Since I've always had to deal with difficult circumstances from 13 onwards, I find it difficult to attribute my mild MLC to not being able to face difficult times. However I was extremely stressed, and Mr J BD and crisis uped the my stress levels.
The other thing is, some MLCers had have depression before, Mr J is one of them. He had been depressed twice before MLC, the depression coming as a consequence of burnout. He pull off both times, but not when MLC come knocking on the door. So, what was different? Why was he able to pull off from depression twice and not this time? Stress, lots and lots and lots of it. It is not that stressed didn't exist when he was previously depressed, it is just that, when MLC hit, the levels were extreme.
But I do not trust an addict. Not when they are still using drugs. Same for an alcoholic. Alcoholisms is for life, so an alcoholic is permanently disordered. However many alcoholics manage to stop drinking. But in order to remain sober they cannot have a single drink. If they do they alcoholism becomes active again. Have you never encountered a former heroin addict? It they manage to quite for food they are totally different than they were while using heroin.
No one is taking of giving excuses, MLCers, as well as addicts and alcoholics are legally responsible for their actions. But it cannot be denied that addiction, alcohol and MLC totally change your brain and highly affect the way a person thinks and acts.
I don't see any victims around here. I see intelligent, doting people, who love to learn, laugh, share.
I agree with everything Stayed said.
Lisa, at least in my country, there is not shortage of useless public policy programmes.
Why do you always bring up MLCers, or supposed MLCers, whose spouses seem to be absolutely terrible? Are you suggesting that we were all dreadful spouses and our MLCer was right to leave us? You never speak of the majority os us, who are not battered wives, who are not bipolar alcoholics married to alcoholics, but normal people who were married to normal people.
If someone has bipolar and is an alcoholic, you already have someone with two disorders. That does not mean those people cannot have MLC. They can. OP's mother is bipolar and she had a MLC.
If someone is a battered wife, good for her that she finally left. Since she is a battered wife who found the courage to leave, I don't thing anyone is going to thing she is having a MLC.
But when someone that, until MLC, was normal, turns into MLC monster and does the things our MLCers do, clearly something is very wrong with that person.
And, anyway, if someone married and alcoholic or a drug addict or a wife battered, it can be argued that they knew what they were getting themselves into. But that is not the case for most of us. We married a sane, addictions free, non spouse beater person.
You seem to like to bring up the exceptions, but the exceptions are just that, exceptions.
And what had happened if, in fact, your son had cancer and you had rejected treatment? Would he be alive? You got a wrong diagnose, but many are saved by right diagnosis. So, what do you suggest? That cancer diagnoses stop? That no more chemo or radio? Everything has risks and common sense must prevail.
If the MLCer would refuse/reject the diagnoses the LBS would still know what the MLCer had, and, if necessary, welfare could be activated, accounts could be frozen, courts would be notified of the situation, etc.
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I think it is a process of maturation. Some people go through it better than others, but I do believe it is a journey they have to take. And looking for the "cause" the "cure," the magic pill is just bargaining and denial. And because, while a PART of me sees the incredible WEAKNESS that caused my exH to break down and leave me in a horrible way, I have great compassion for the STRENGTH it took him to do that. And I HOPE, with every fiber of my being, that he makes it through his journey and becomes the man I always thought he was and I think he CAN be.
Plus, remember I had the incredible benefit of going through the time after BD as a business owner who catered to women. I heard, literally, hundreds of MLC stories in the year after BD, and NOT ONE women I met wasn't thankful her H left her. And I am starting to feel the same. But, here in these conversations, I see so much infantilization and paternalism, so much of "they know not what they do." I think that's true, to a certain extent, but I also think that even if you could treat the major symptoms, and make the process better, that in order for these MLCers to completely differentiate (probably from their parents), they have to leave us behind and take this journey alone, or with someone else. And I think that's why all of them eventually do want to return, but it is only through leaving that they can see what they lost.
If I had been able to treat some of H's depression, I still think he would never have found his true self and we would both be quietly, mildly miserable to the end of our days. But only in blowing up our family did he free both of us to become the people we were meant to be, and I NEVER would have had the strength to do that... So, for you to look at them through a lens of "disorder" is very high, and mighty, I think. Because, from where I sit, now, I am not sure who was more disordered, me for being willing to put up with what we had, or him for crashing the whole thing... Only time will tell where we end up... Love and light, ll
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LL,
I like your perspective on the whole MLC process.
I think it is a process of maturation. Some people go through it better than others, but I do believe it is a journey they have to take. And looking for the "cause" the "cure," the magic pill is just bargaining and denial. And because, while a PART of me sees the incredible WEAKNESS that caused my exH to break down and leave me in a horrible way, I have great compassion for the STRENGTH it took him to do that. And I HOPE, with every fiber of my being, that he makes it through his journey and becomes the man I always thought he was and I think he CAN be.
The way you look at the MLC process, is the way it needs to be looked at. This is a maturation process, through and through. We are all severely wounded by this, sometimes to the point of giving up completely. The MLCer is weak in so many ways, yet it does take strength to destroy everything you have known and love and walk away. Given the state of confusion that they are in, how can they truly understand with any depth, what they are doing? Because they are so focused on themselves, due to the pain, due to their issues, how can they comprehend it all? They are just trying to figure out themselves, let alone worry about anyone else.
We take this so personally, which we are bound to do, because of the attacks by the person we love and trust. Yet, standing at a distance from the carnage, we see so much more clearly the bigger picture, than when we are standing so close, when they explode. We are essentially enveloped in the fog of the explosion, which clouds are perspective. Only when that cloud dissipates can we finally begin to understand what has happened. In many ways this is an awakening for us as well. For if this never happened, as you point out, most of us would have trudged along in our lives, miserable and never really taking the initiative to self-reflect and look at the relationship and our MLCer in a different light. A light, that clearly shows that they were hurting for many years prior to this event. A hurt they suppressed to everyone and a hurt that would have consumed them, unless they went through this process.
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Im my mind, there's a difference between simply labelling MLC as a disorder (lack of order; something out of the norm, out of kilter) and designating it as a disease with a pharmacological fix. The former is plausible; the latter is unlikely. No magic pill. The journey has to be walked to completion.
When I've spoken with my H about his MLC (and he can now articulate a little bit about what he was feeling at the worst of it), sometimes he describes it as "when I was being a jackass". But most of the time, "when I was in that bad place"; "when I was a different guy"; "I wasn't sad, I was angry". He describes his thought processes at arms length, as though they were happening to somebody very different from himself - and sometimes he cannot explain himself at all (which causes him great anxiety), other than to say repeatedly "I'm not that guy now".
So no, I don't think during MLC my H was revealing his true self. It's true that each of us has a shadow self; every one of us is a constantly shifting mixture of pleasure and pain, with the good angel and the devil sitting on our shoulders. But a previously well-adjusted person doesn't suddenly turn about and go racing headlong towards their own emotional destruction unless something goes desperately wrong - perhaps in their frontal lobes where impulsivity is controlled, or in their amygdala where fear and shame are kept in check. And an intrinsically weak person wouldn't come back at the end of it all to say "I'm different now... would you have me back?". Just my thoughts.
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Interesting osb. My h says the same thing, all the time... "I'm not that GUY anymore." The same words. Interesting eh.
When it really hit him, when he really grasped what he had done, my h laid in bed and sobbed, "I can't believe I was that guy!" He kept repeating it again and again. I felt so sorry for him, but I had to gently remind him, that he had definitely been that "guy" and I didn't blame him one little bit for hating the idea of being him. That guy was one "nasty" piece of work.
I don't know what this thing is, but it's real. I don't know if they REALLY have to go through it, but they definitely do. It's an "ugly" thing, sad it can't be stopped or controlled. Of course, we don't know for sure that it can't be stopped or controlled. As it is now... it seems unlikely, but that doesn't mean it will always be like that.
Hugs Stayed
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I think it is a process of maturation. Some people go through it better than others, but I do believe it is a journey they have to take. And looking for the "cause" the "cure," the magic pill is just bargaining and denial. And because, while a PART of me sees the incredible WEAKNESS that caused my exH to break down and leave me in a horrible way, I have great compassion for the STRENGTH it took him to do that. And I HOPE, with every fiber of my being, that he makes it through his journey and becomes the man I always thought he was and I think he CAN be.
Plus, remember I had the incredible benefit of going through the time after BD as a business owner who catered to women. I heard, literally, hundreds of MLC stories in the year after BD, and NOT ONE women I met wasn't thankful her H left her. And I am starting to feel the same. But, here in these conversations, I see so much infantilization and paternalism, so much of "they know not what they do." I think that's true, to a certain extent, but I also think that even if you could treat the major symptoms, and make the process better, that in order for these MLCers to completely differentiate (probably from their parents), they have to leave us behind and take this journey alone, or with someone else. And I think that's why all of them eventually do want to return, but it is only through leaving that they can see what they lost.
If I had been able to treat some of H's depression, I still think he would never have found his true self and we would both be quietly, mildly miserable to the end of our days. But only in blowing up our family did he free both of us to become the people we were meant to be, and I NEVER would have had the strength to do that... So, for you to look at them through a lens of "disorder" is very high, and mighty, I think. Because, from where I sit, now, I am not sure who was more disordered, me for being willing to put up with what we had, or him for crashing the whole thing... Only time will tell where we end up... Love and light, ll
Plus, remember I had the incredible benefit of going through the time after BD as a business owner who catered to women. I heard, literally, hundreds of MLC stories in the year after BD, and NOT ONE women I met wasn't thankful her H left her.
Hi LL did any of those women's husbands return to them or show remorse, from my perspective if breaking up family units and history takes strenght Id rather be weak and let them flourish.
Take care Jack
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Hi LL did any of those women's husbands return to them or show remorse, from my perspective if breaking up family units and history takes strenght Id rather be weak and let them flourish.
Take care Jack
This is what I was thinking. I don't recall too many posts from women on here who were happy their H left them and I haven't heard that from any of the people I've spoken with in real life. Just a lot of sadness and confusion and anger.
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Can't say that I believe it took strength for our MLCers to head down their train wreck destruction of their lives and finances and family.
I liken it more to a drowning person who grabs onto the nearest log of wood (OP) to save themselves. Nothing more.
Wise words osb. Not many shows of guilt from my MLCer in recent months, (he did in the early days), but he did say 'I'm a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT person over here Kikki!' He knows.
And he's been a nasty piece of work this past year in particular too.
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Trying to figure out how to respond, but I think the bottom line is it takes a LONG time for them to show remorse, and most people don't stay here that long, plus since this is a site for standers, most of the ones who move on and remarry probably don't come back to tell their stories. But yes, even some of the LBS I know with incredible Ahole MLCers show remorse. But sadly, I think they also subject themselves to the torture of a horrible life with OW as punishment... And the more normal stories, all of them show remorse. I can tell you about a dozen stories off the top of my head, and I have a whole journal of them that I saved over the years, plus since I now work with school administrators, I get new ones about once a month. Now that I am engaged, even more people want to tell me about second marriages, and it's all good stuff. I have yet for anyone to tell me a nightmare story of an LBS in a second M, so I take that as good. But I might write more when I am not in a Benedryl haze... Cold and flu season combined with my worst allergy season is just lovely!
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The taking a very long time to show remorse makes a lot of sense.
When I really come to grips with the fact that they have rejected who they were previously and are trying on new lives with new hats, it makes sense that they reject all of the people and roles (father, mother, husband, wife, friend) that went with the previous life.
It makes sense that they are blind to the destruction, and if they ever integrate the new with the old and the core selves - it must be terrifying for a MLCer to face their MLC behaviours.
Would love that crystal ball.
Looking forward to most of us hearing remorse one day.
Take care Lisa - that combo doesn't sound fun.
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And the more normal stories, all of them show remorse. I can tell you about a dozen stories off the top of my head, and I have a whole journal of them that I saved over the years, plus since I now work with school administrators, I get new ones about once a month. Now that I am engaged, even more people want to tell me about second marriages, and it's all good stuff. I have yet for anyone to tell me a nightmare story of an LBS in a second M, so I take that as good. But I might write more when I am not in a Benedryl haze... Cold and flu season combined with my worst allergy season is just lovely!
LL, please come back when your allergy season is over and tell us briefly about some of these stories...
I'm joining this thread and late and haven't really the time to catch up with all of it, though I've read through what I can with BIG interest.
If my H petitions for D, I am prepared to really take my stand to the limit and even pursue this to the high court. This will be a publicity opportunity for MLC and I hope all on this site will assist where they can. I will only do something if H files, but if he does, I will have to seek the feistiest, toughest, battle-strong lawyer that I can find and use the remainder of my savings on this. I will rely heavily on this site for support. I hope I'll find it. It will be a do or die mission!
Should it come to that... I hope the process works, so I never have to do this.
If the process works, and H awakens and returns, then I will tell the story anyway, and get greater publicity. This whole thing is too nightmarish and too common to not be told, until the general population - and above all the doctors - get it.
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Hi UKS,
When I engaged a barrister for one day in court my bill was approx £5000. That's just one day yikes!
High Court would be astronomically costly, I had no control over the money bleeding out of my savings and had to get a loan over ten years to finish the Proceedure my female lawyer once joked after a bad day in court with my Mlcer that she was as cold as ice and it would be cheaper to hire a hit man, I had to laugh