[bipolared]

Yes, spot on LLL!  I also agree with Stayed, in that maybe there would be more protection for spouses and children.  I am strong, resilient, and doing the work on myself but I am also a 45yo woman with no career having to start from scratch.  No matter how awesome I am, how I claw my way out of this-my future kind of sucks.

[LisaLives]

LLL, I do get what you're saying.  I AM hearing you and I do know how much it sucks.  BUT, I still am not sure how you would diagnose it, and at what point those protections would kick in.  As a public policy analyst, I always caution people to remember that you have to be careful what you build a program for, because you usually get it. 

What you are addressing are two separate issues, not totally related to MLC.  First is the perception and the shame of being left.  That is internal, there is no way that will ever be erased for all women until and unless women are in the power position and they are the ones who choose.  There will always be women who allow themselves to feel that way, and people who will enforce it--for so many reasons, all having to do with shame.  Even though everyone I know has said my exH is having an MLC, it didn't stop me from feeling that...  That is about how much worth we place on ourselves.   

The other is the financial abandonment part that Joan Williams addresses so well in Unbending Gender.  This is where we give up everything to be mothers, which leaves us vulnerable if we are left.  That calls for a different kind of social contract that has nothing to do with MLC, either.  Because, face it, there are men who are Aholes and when their wives leave them for good reason, they are also in the same boat, and that's not fair.  And even people who part amicably where the woman gave up everything to be a full-time parent, but now has to go it alone.  I totally get this part, I gave up my career because exH WANTED it that way, so I would never have to compete with him.  If I had told knowlwegeable people about that 17 years ago, they would have told me to leave him then, but I would not have listened...  That is about how much value society places on stay-at home parents. 

But in both cases, even if more recognition of MLC would help, HOW would this diagnosis be made?  Could a person be unwillingly dragged to the doctor and labeled MLC against theri wishes?  I know two men whose exwives have both died of alcoholism in the last year who could have been accused of being MLCers five years ago when they left their wives, but the fact remains that their wives were active bipolar alcoholics and they had every reason to leave... What good would it have been to "label" them MLCers?  And I still come back to the quietly suffering abused woman who finally at middle age decides she has the balls to leave.  Maybe she IS an MLCer, if she gets the diagnosis slapped on her, would she have to go to court to justify leaving, and pay him support because she is the higher earner?   

And I come back to the 17yo in Connecticut who is being forced into chemo against her will.  I had a kid with a cancer diagnosis--we rejected treatment, and a year and six second opinions later, I got backing that I was right and it was an errant diagnosis.  IF they had force him into treatment, I am sure he'd be dead.  Even if you could drag an MLCer into the doctor for a diagnosis--what if he rejects treament?  Or what if he does everything they say and he still wants to leave for his secretary?  Does he finally get a pass, at that point, and is there even more shame for the wife because he made it through "treatment" and he's still leaving? 

There is an interesting article that I looked at again as I was throwing out my stack of research.  It was Polish study about MLC that said that people who were affectively future oriented had higher MLC indicators.  I think THAT is something we see a LOT here, the person whose parents were never satisfied, who was always living for the NEXT best thing.  That is their baggage, their s#$% that they have to unpack before they will ever be whole and ready for love.  MLC happens to people who are not willing to face their stuff, and there are too many people who will never support that.  Some people have in-laws who would support them, but very few--because then you open up all their baggage, and no one wants that.

I am not closed to the idea that you all might be right, but I am challenging you to think through what you would really want, and if it could work.  I think society does recognize MLC, just as it recognizes that some people are malignant aholes, but unless THEY are willing to change, it's all a futile discussion...   
 



 

[Anjae]

We are going to have to agree to disagree, Lisa. For me MLC is a disorder. Or maybe it would be more accurate to call it a condition. I also don't think PPD is a development phase. It is depression. If we start to see PPD as a development issue, the many people who already get neglected because of it, will be even more neglected.

There are several female members of the board who suffered from PPD and I don't recall any of them considering it a development issue. By that token all milder depressions would be a development issue. What is a development phase is midlife transition. Midlife crisis is an abnormal condition of a normal development phase. We all go through midlife adjustments, but not all of us have a midlife crisis.

To be fair, MLC is probably more of the real of the hormones than of the mental illnesses, but it remains a condition that causes lots of problems.

Why is calling ADHD a disorder insulting and not calling schizophrenia a disorder insulting? Just like with ADHD, there are lots of things that people with schizophrenia (or bipolar) can do, that often others cannot. There a huge number of brilliant people in the arts & sciences that suffered from mental illness. I have dyslexia, mild one (it tend to kick off big time when I'm tired and, usually, one thing is written and my mind reads another. Or I will write right instead of write and, for me, I have written write).

My younger sister had a much more serious level of dyslexia when she was a child, she required special learning and, to this day, languages, especially writing them remains challenging for her. Yet, nor me nor she have a problem with dyslexia being considered a disorder. And, ironically, I'm quite good with languages, I speak, write and read several, including on a professional level.

But I'm still failing to see what ADHD and dyslexia exclude the fact that midlife is a condition and/or disorder and why, just because we may suffer from something, it shouldn't be consider a serious issue. If it has to do with frail people, well, than me, at least me and Ready2 are frail because we both had a mild MLC. However nor me nor Ready2 run. And, technically, none of us was in midlife (now I am). Nor was Mr J. Since I've always had to deal with difficult circumstances from 13 onwards, I find it difficult to attribute my mild MLC to not being able to face difficult times. However I was extremely stressed, and Mr J BD and crisis uped the my stress levels.

The other thing is, some MLCers had have depression before, Mr J is one of them. He had been depressed twice before MLC, the depression coming as a consequence of burnout. He pull off both times, but not when MLC come knocking on the door. So, what was different? Why was he able to pull off from depression twice and not this time? Stress, lots and lots and lots of it. It is not that stressed didn't exist when he was previously depressed, it is just that, when MLC hit, the levels were extreme.
 
But I do not trust an addict. Not when they are still using drugs. Same for an alcoholic. Alcoholisms is for life, so an alcoholic is permanently disordered. However many alcoholics manage to stop drinking. But in order to remain sober they cannot have a single drink. If they do they alcoholism becomes active again. Have you never encountered a former heroin addict? It they manage to quite for food they are totally different than they were while using heroin.

No one is taking of giving excuses, MLCers, as well as addicts and alcoholics are legally responsible for their actions. But it cannot be denied that addiction, alcohol and MLC totally change your brain and highly affect the way a person thinks and acts.

I don't see any victims around here. I see intelligent, doting people, who love to learn, laugh, share.

I agree with everything Stayed said.

Lisa, at least in my country, there is not shortage of useless public policy programmes.

Why do you always bring up MLCers, or supposed MLCers, whose spouses seem to be absolutely terrible? Are you suggesting that we were all dreadful spouses and our MLCer was right to leave us? You never speak of the majority os us, who are not battered wives, who are not bipolar alcoholics married to alcoholics, but normal people who were married to normal people.

If someone has bipolar and is an alcoholic, you already have someone with two disorders. That does not mean those people cannot have MLC. They can. OP's mother is bipolar and she had a MLC.

If someone is a battered wife, good for her that she finally left. Since she is a battered wife who found the courage to leave, I don't thing anyone is going to thing she is having a MLC.

But when someone that, until MLC, was normal, turns into MLC monster and does the things our MLCers do, clearly something is very wrong with that person.

And, anyway, if someone married and alcoholic or a drug addict or a wife battered, it can be argued that they knew what they were getting themselves into. But that is not the case for most of us. We married a sane, addictions free, non spouse beater person.

You seem to like to bring up the exceptions, but the exceptions are just that, exceptions.

And what had happened if, in fact, your son had cancer and you had rejected treatment? Would he be alive? You got a wrong diagnose, but many are saved by right diagnosis. So, what do you suggest? That cancer diagnoses stop? That no more chemo or radio? Everything has risks and common sense must prevail.

If the MLCer would refuse/reject the diagnoses the LBS would still know what the MLCer had, and, if necessary, welfare could be activated, accounts could be frozen, courts would be notified of the situation, etc.

[LisaLives]

I think it is a process of maturation.  Some people go through it better than others, but I do believe it is a journey they have to take.  And looking for the "cause" the "cure," the magic pill is just bargaining and denial.  And because, while a PART of me sees the incredible WEAKNESS that caused my exH to break down and leave me in a horrible way, I have great compassion for the STRENGTH it took him to do that.  And I HOPE, with every fiber of my being, that he makes it through his journey and becomes the man I always thought he was and I think he CAN be. 

Plus, remember I had the incredible benefit of going through the time after BD as a business owner who catered to women.  I heard, literally, hundreds of MLC stories in the year after BD, and NOT ONE women I met wasn't thankful her H left her.  And I am starting to feel the same.  But, here in these conversations, I see so much infantilization and paternalism, so much of "they know not what they do."  I think that's true, to a certain extent, but I also think that even if you could treat the major symptoms, and make the process better, that in order for these MLCers to completely differentiate (probably from their parents), they have to leave us behind and take this journey alone, or with someone else.  And I think that's why all of them eventually do want to return, but it is only through leaving that they can see what they lost. 

If I had been able to treat some of H's depression, I still think he would never have found his true self and we would both be quietly, mildly miserable to the end of our days.  But only in blowing up our family did he free both of us to become the people we were meant to be, and I NEVER would have had the strength to do that...  So, for you to look at them through a lens of "disorder" is very high, and mighty, I think.  Because, from where I sit, now, I am not sure who was more disordered, me for being willing to put up with what we had, or him for crashing the whole thing...  Only time will tell where we end up...  Love and light, ll 

[Neo]

LL,

I like your perspective on the whole MLC process.

I think it is a process of maturation.  Some people go through it better than others, but I do believe it is a journey they have to take.  And looking for the "cause" the "cure," the magic pill is just bargaining and denial.  And because, while a PART of me sees the incredible WEAKNESS that caused my exH to break down and leave me in a horrible way, I have great compassion for the STRENGTH it took him to do that.  And I HOPE, with every fiber of my being, that he makes it through his journey and becomes the man I always thought he was and I think he CAN be. 

The way you look at the MLC process, is the way it needs to be looked at. This is a maturation process, through and through. We are all  severely wounded by this, sometimes to the point of giving up completely. The MLCer is weak in so many ways, yet it does take strength to destroy everything you have known and love and walk away. Given the state of confusion that they are in, how can they truly understand with any depth, what they are doing? Because they are so focused on themselves, due to the pain, due to their issues, how can they comprehend it all? They are just trying to figure out themselves, let alone worry about anyone else.

We take this so personally, which we are bound to do, because of the attacks by the person we love and trust. Yet, standing at a distance from the carnage, we see so much more clearly the bigger picture, than when we are standing so close, when they explode. We are essentially enveloped in the fog of the explosion, which clouds are perspective. Only when that cloud dissipates can we finally begin to understand what has happened. In many ways this is an awakening for us as well. For if this never happened, as you point out, most of us would have trudged along in our lives, miserable and never really taking the initiative to self-reflect and look at the relationship and our MLCer in a different light. A light, that clearly shows that they were hurting for many years prior to this event. A hurt they suppressed to everyone and a hurt that would have consumed them, unless they went through this process.

[osb]

Im my mind, there's a difference between simply labelling MLC as a disorder (lack of order; something out of the norm, out of kilter) and designating it as a disease with a pharmacological fix. The former is plausible; the latter is unlikely. No magic pill. The journey has to be walked to completion.

When I've spoken with my H about his MLC (and he can now articulate a little bit about what he was feeling at the worst of it), sometimes he describes it as "when I was being a jackass". But most of the time, "when I was in that bad place"; "when I was a different guy"; "I wasn't sad, I was angry". He describes his thought processes at arms length, as though they were happening to somebody very different from himself - and sometimes he cannot explain himself at all (which causes him great anxiety), other than to say repeatedly "I'm not that guy now".

So no, I don't think during MLC my H was revealing his true self. It's true that each of us has a shadow self; every one of us is a constantly shifting mixture of pleasure and pain, with the good angel and the devil sitting on our shoulders. But a previously well-adjusted person doesn't suddenly turn about and go racing headlong towards their own emotional destruction unless something goes desperately wrong - perhaps in their frontal lobes where impulsivity is controlled, or in their amygdala where fear and shame are kept in check. And an intrinsically weak person wouldn't come back at the end of it all to say "I'm different now... would you have me back?". Just my thoughts.

[stayed]

Interesting osb.  My h says the same thing, all the time... "I'm not that GUY anymore."  The same words.  Interesting eh. 

When it really hit him, when he really grasped what he had done, my h laid in bed and sobbed, "I can't believe I was that guy!"  He kept repeating it again and again.  I felt so sorry for him, but I had to gently remind him, that he had definitely been that "guy" and I didn't blame him one little bit for hating the idea of being him.  That guy was one "nasty" piece of work.

I don't know what this thing is, but it's real.  I don't know if they REALLY have to go through it, but they definitely do.  It's an "ugly" thing, sad it can't be stopped or controlled.  Of course, we don't know for sure that it can't be stopped or controlled.  As it is now... it seems unlikely, but that doesn't mean it will always be like that.

Hugs Stayed

[Jackolar12]

I think it is a process of maturation.  Some people go through it better than others, but I do believe it is a journey they have to take.  And looking for the "cause" the "cure," the magic pill is just bargaining and denial.  And because, while a PART of me sees the incredible WEAKNESS that caused my exH to break down and leave me in a horrible way, I have great compassion for the STRENGTH it took him to do that.  And I HOPE, with every fiber of my being, that he makes it through his journey and becomes the man I always thought he was and I think he CAN be. 

Plus, remember I had the incredible benefit of going through the time after BD as a business owner who catered to women.  I heard, literally, hundreds of MLC stories in the year after BD, and NOT ONE women I met wasn't thankful her H left her.  And I am starting to feel the same.  But, here in these conversations, I see so much infantilization and paternalism, so much of "they know not what they do."  I think that's true, to a certain extent, but I also think that even if you could treat the major symptoms, and make the process better, that in order for these MLCers to completely differentiate (probably from their parents), they have to leave us behind and take this journey alone, or with someone else.  And I think that's why all of them eventually do want to return, but it is only through leaving that they can see what they lost. 

If I had been able to treat some of H's depression, I still think he would never have found his true self and we would both be quietly, mildly miserable to the end of our days.  But only in blowing up our family did he free both of us to become the people we were meant to be, and I NEVER would have had the strength to do that...  So, for you to look at them through a lens of "disorder" is very high, and mighty, I think.  Because, from where I sit, now, I am not sure who was more disordered, me for being willing to put up with what we had, or him for crashing the whole thing...  Only time will tell where we end up...  Love and light, ll

Plus, remember I had the incredible benefit of going through the time after BD as a business owner who catered to women.  I heard, literally, hundreds of MLC stories in the year after BD, and NOT ONE women I met wasn't thankful her H left her.
Hi LL did any of those women's husbands return to them or show remorse, from my perspective if breaking up family units and history takes strenght Id rather be weak and let them flourish.
Take care Jack

[MyBrainIsBroken]

Hi LL did any of those women's husbands return to them or show remorse, from my perspective if breaking up family units and history takes strenght Id rather be weak and let them flourish.
Take care Jack

This is what I was thinking. I don't recall too many posts from women on here who were happy their H left them and I haven't heard that from any of the people I've spoken with in real life. Just a lot of sadness and confusion and anger.

[kikki]

Can't say that I believe it took strength for our MLCers to head down their train wreck destruction of their lives and finances and family.
I liken it more to a drowning person who grabs onto the nearest log of wood (OP) to save themselves.  Nothing more.

Wise words osb.  Not many shows of guilt from my MLCer in recent months, (he did in the early days), but he did say 'I'm a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT person over here Kikki!'  He knows.
And he's been a nasty piece of work this past year in particular too.