Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Velika on November 08, 2016, 09:35:35 PM
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Our nation is being bomb dropped by insane voters. 💔🇺🇸😞
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Pretty much..
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The us is going through its own mlc.
We traded in the dependable steady reliable prepared person for the flashy affair down.
Well we will manage. We are all experienced in dealing with that.
:)
Lp
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I cannot speak for all the UK but this UK person is, as we say here, " gob-smacked!"
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I'm not surprised. More disgusted. And embarrassed. And wondering which country we will blow up and bomb next just because Trump has a tantrum.
Can you imagine having a former porn star as first lady?
Ugh the night gets worse as I think about this.
Lp
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Tonight I remembered my father always said--the only measure of a man in this country is how much money he has. :'(
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I can only hope that this is the catalyst for the rest of the world to do their mirror work (LBS style) and get clear headed and hopefully a little more spiritual.
Good luck America :'(
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As an American in Europe, I have the unique perspective of
1) all my colleagues, especially the ones from the UK, now gloating that they no longer have the distinction of being proven to be the dumbest bunch of rocks on the planet after the Brexit vote,
2) Watching FakeBook blow up with all the partisan nonsense,
3) wondering if my planned trip to visit my parents next summer with my kids will actually happen now (the kids have dual citizenship),
4) Knowing that it really doesn't matter whose butt is sitting in the Oval Office because it is Congress and the media (of which 95% is controlled/owned by 5 families - think about that) that set the Agenda,
5) Seeing a mutiparty system that really DOES work as opposed to the two-party system we have in place in the US...
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I worked the polls in my state. Had no idea who won, until I woke up this morning. Not a good feeling waking up to such incredibly bad news. Then again, either way it went, wouldn't have been good news to me. I wrote in Bernie Sanders, even though he wasn't running any longer.
Had no idea there were so many Muslims and Latino people in my city! So glad they came out to vote, most likely soo offended from Trump comments. I stand with them!!! Clinton won my state. What a shock Trump won so many electoral votes. Will we ever change this archaic system (electoral college) to have the one w/ the most votes win? Didn't matter much, this time. Trump seemed to have won the poplar vote as well as the electoral vote :(
I can't even predict what a colossal mess the next four years will be, not looking forward to it either.
Just like the LBS in MLC all I can do, is focus on me and make my life better.
*On a side note...It was amazing to see the amount of people who never voted before exercise the right to vote! 1st time voters, democracy in action...made me smile :)
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I kind of feel the same way Elegance..either way it was hard to feel good about who to vote for. The people wanted change.
And I think UM ( as I haven't been following the elections too closely) Congress is majority Republican also.
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All I could think last night was...what were people thinking???
El, my state voted for Hillary too, so no one can blame us. :)
I'm nervously waiting for the stock market to open today. :-\ Could be a disaster. I sure hope not.
UM, I had to laugh at the "dumber than a box of rocks" comment. lol Of course we did have Bush, too.
Well, hopefully Congress won't allow him to mess up too bad. I'm prayin'.
Sorry world!
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I am not political; Had I actually voted it would have been for "None of the above." (Think Brewster's Millions)
Having said that-I can see why Trump won. People are just plain tired of career politicians.
Guess we will have to see what the next 4 years brings. I don't expect much. Aside from executive orders, how much 'power' does the President actually *have*?
He is a cog in a machine. Changing one part doesn't change the over-all operation of 'the machine'. A pretty simplistic view-point, but that is how I see it.
-T
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I kind of feel the same way Elegance..either way it was hard to feel good about who to vote for. The people wanted change.
And I think UM ( as I haven't been following the elections too closely) Congress is majority Republican also.
Just because they are also republican, I do not expect them to go along with a lot of what the Trumpet was blowing on about in his campaign speeches... In fact, at least from my view, most congressional republicans don't like him much either...
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That's true UM. A lot of them didn't support him running. New word for what happened. Whitelash.
The people wanted change.
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OK I was wrong... It was Clinton who won the popular vote. GRRRRR. I didn't vote for her, just wondering when it is we are going to put up for a vote on getting rid of the electoral college and have the person who won the most votes win the election??
Yes in it, 'change' is what the people wanted yet what type of change will Trump bring exactly? From what I see his own wife wouldn't be allowed to come in the country either.
As a Native American descendant I take offence at Trump's comments of 'taking our country back'. Who's country? Take it back from what who or what? Seems to me Trump's got quite a few things confused ::) Isn't Trump too old for a MLC? lol
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uhhhh yeah hes too old.
He comes from privilege. He's a narcissist. They are constantly in a MLC. He has issues he hasn't ever dealt with. I just heard on TV how he said his Dad was a great guy.
Donald had a paper route as a child..when it rained the chauffeur took him to the houses.
When Donald was a pre-teen his father sent him to military school. Apparently he felt he needed discipline.
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It's a sad day for this country. I'd be really concerned if I were a woman or a minority, yet many of them must have voted for Trump or he wouldn't have won. In fact, I know several women who are proud that they voted for him. Like Thunder, I'm not looking forward to seeing the stock market's response to this lunacy. And yet, part of me is thinking at least we won't have to deal with Hillary as president. WTF?
I'm a little nervous about posting this. Who knows who will be reading through this thread in 6 months looking for "disloyal" Americans?
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I feel like someone died today.
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(https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?ui=2&ik=0d193aeba4&view=fimg&th=158495cec9afd0ce&attid=0.1&disp=inline&safe=1&attbid=ANGjdJ_fo-r392D2dfy8si08fAj9ndwXDST9Ndf3o5S2N5WBw5toB84W_zoCPcs42T4yoLTqwBUoy2aNlvMxjGAuJwYjaCjIP_lTr1dbkj1Lx1RmvUq_DTNlTVYMFxM&ats=1478699698200&rm=158495cec9afd0ce&zw&sz=w1600-h728)
Hi Nas,
This link doesn't work because it is linked to your personal G-Mail account...
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yeah, I can't get it to work.
Oh well.
It said:
BRITAIN: Brexit was the stupidest, most self-destructive act a country could undertake.
US: Hold my drink.
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I am embarrassed as well. I will say the options weren't great but sometimes you have to choose the lesser of the evils. Well they wanted change and they will get change but will it be the change they want. Who knows, the good news is The president does not dictate my happiness. We just have to respond with more compassion.
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LOL Nas.
Guess all we can do is laugh over the obsurdity (sp) of it all.
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I am heartsick, ashamed and horrified. I keep hearing that the people want change. They want Trump to burn down the status quo but the problem is that he is utterly unqualified to build it back up.
My girls and I have friends who are immigrants and part of the LGBTQ community, and they are all scared. I have been telling them that they have to fight for them now more than ever.
And btw, I unashamedly like Hillary. She is definitely flawed and has done some things I consider stupid but she has shown a lot of grace and composure. She was well qualified and has advocated for children for years. Really just shaking my head about what my country has embraced.
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OK Nas, I just spit my tea...
Yep... The last words so often written on the tombstones of Darwin Award winners...
"Hold my drink and watch this!"
Maybe this one might work...
(https://scontent-amt2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/14976915_1280913711949777_9184515822197206111_o.jpg)
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LOL! Yep good one Nas..ya gotta laugh..
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My girls and I have friends who are immigrants and part of the LGBTQ community
Being gay I am terrified at what will come in the next 4 years. I know Pence has a strong anti lgbtq agenda. I think we had finally started to make strides in equality and I can see that being reversed during his term. My S20 is gay as well and I just worry for his safety. That to me is scary when you have to worry about your families safety. SMH
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Watching from Canada, kinda scared for the future of North America.
Pluralism, feminism, diversity, tolerance, truth, all of these seem so second nature (even in politics), one degree of latitude north of the border. You just can't get elected here without 'em. It's not like people change so drastically when you reach the border. But what flaming, raging monster of the id went and elected this man??
We've been joking here that Canada will build a wall; and we'll pay for it! Suddenly that's not so funny...
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osb,
I've heard/read that joke from some of my Canadian colleagues today too... To keep the idiots out and the smart ones have already left... I just chuckled (seeing as I am in Germany... )
Here's another thing I have seen LOTS of today.....
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/f8/8c/bb/f88cbb7af53f3ad3f1b27c6208cb418c.jpg)
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No, it's not funny. Maybe I'll move to Canada after the wall is built. ;D
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GOD HELP US.......
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I think he tapped into people's anger and frustration with Congress getting nothing done, so they choose him. Good Lord. ::)
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I think when frightens me most is not just this sexist, racist etc. man who's own state didn't vote for him won, it's all the people that cosigned his vision by voting for him that has gotten me down. Really felt the days of bigots were over, until I woke up today and realized the majority of people who voted, really still are.
Not looking forward to what's next at all.
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Yes, you absolutely right!
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I think he tapped into people's anger and frustration with Congress getting nothing done, so they choose him. Good Lord. ::)
This is EXACTLY right... And you want to know what? IT ISN'T GOING TO CHANGE because CONGRESS hasn't changed... I still say that the pay and benefits are perverse in comparison... And congressional term limits should be established...
Public service is a privilege and should be a temporary job... Then one should have to go back to being a real worker again and not be able to lobby for a defined period of years...
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I really, really tried to understand the people who were supporting Kim Don Trump--at first I thought it was the un or under employed working class--yes the jobs left the country. Then, of course he appealed to racism and sexism and several other -isms and phobias. When it comes down to it, Trump played on emotional reactions [anger and fear] and it worked like a charm.
A few months ago, I wouldn't have believed that Clinton, who comes from a middle class background, was viewed as the elite and millionaire's son Trump was the working class hero.
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Sadly, I am not surprised that Trump won - this election was more about Hilary losing than about Trump winning. They underestimated how much people hate Hilary. If Bernie had been the democratic candidate, he would have won.
It is going to be a long 4 years.
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I do find it interesting that the TV announcers are now saying that
the Clinton supporters are going to go through the 5 stages of grief
and that the rest of us should give them TIME and SPACE.
Just amazing how much this election is also following
a script.
I will now shut up and listen.
I hope that LOVE will prevail.
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Around here, the Midwest, he tapped in to
Anger at Obama. Hatred for the healthcare system he created for example. Hatred and feeling left out of prosperity seen on both coasts and big urban areas. Feelings of being voiceless. Feeling like the working people are totally ignored and looked down on. Anger that we give free health and benefits to people on public aid and those that work get screwed and punished for working. Anger the jobs are going overseas and the us government helps this with subsidies. They loved trumps line about those companies not getting to sell her anymore.
Anger at a lack of accountability and personal responsibility. About the cities seeing them as dumb hicks who are less important than they are.
About Obama not being seen as ever risking or working hard for anything like they have to every day. About the opportunities he had that they didn't.
About Obama being nothing like them. And failing with the trust they bought in to in his two elections.
Angry about to changes in the culture of the us.
Angry about their needs being ignored. And then lectured to and looked down on.
And yes there is a degree of racism. And a degree of dislike for lgbt issues like gay marriage here. But its more of the thought that time was wasted on those non issues. They don't want to have it on the TV news. One said to me, "my marriage wasn't on the news so what makes anyone think I care if these people get married or not. I just don't care. Its not my business. Why shouldn't they have a chance to be just as miserable as the rest of us. Talk to me about jobs."
And there is a serious problem with women. And its women towards women. We see it everyday here on this forum. When one is praised others claim abuse and neglect. When one states a personal opinion, others rush to take sides. We have women who think its ok to have gotten with their h even though at the time he was with another woman. But now they are shocked and devastated he left them for an ow. We have women here who are furious with the ow and blame her while a hundred excuses are made for the husband. Oh he's sick. Must never say anything tough to him. We have male posters here who repeat the same things women here have said over and over and the men are treated like they have deep new insight and the women like they are just b!tches who don't understand.
We see it in jury selection. Women want to differentiate themselves from female victims of crimes. They tend to still use the position that the women was dressed like a ho so what did she expect for example.
Many women see other women as competitors not sisters. And life as a zero sum game. And men as the ultimate fashion status symbol. How many of you pre bd had friends who divorced and kind of dropped them as friends? Then thought, that could never happen in my marriage...(setting yourself apart). How many women were angry with her for not leaving Bill when he cheated? How many assumed she stayed for political power and money rather than for her marriage?
It wasn't just men that hated Hillary for being a woman. Women were just as deadly about that. Crabs in a bucket. One never escapes as the rest turn on her.
My thoughts,
Lp
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As a UK Citizen I can only sympathise with the sick feeling many of you probably woke up to, if you got any sleep in the first place. I had the same feeling on 24 June after the Brexit vote. As with MLC, time passes.
I do feel sad that the first woman candidate had to put up with the amount she did (not to mention comments about her H - though what that's got to do with her I can't imagine as I thought they were separate people and as we all know, you cannot control what your spouse does...), regardless of what people think of her past actions, during the campaign. We should be celebrating and lifting up our gender whenever and wherever we can.
As a global community we can only hope that Trump will act as a figurehead and leave the politicking to people who know what they're doing, but I for one won't be holding my breath.
My heart goes out to you all across the Pond.
C xx
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I have seen people posting the same quotes about the election results that I see here on this site.
So true, like a national MLC.
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I think he won by tapping into people's dislikes. If you think women need to be put back in their place, he's your man. If you don't like minorities, immigrants, Muslims, gays, the Establishment, environmentalists, free trade, liberals, intellectuals, journalists, he's right there with you. And the biggest one, if you don't like Hillary, you can vote against her by voting for him. I wonder what's going to happen when those who voted for him realize they're also on his list of people he dislikes.
Thunder, I think we should probably leave for Canada before they put the wall up, although personally I've been talking with LiveLoveLaugh about moving to Australia.
Here's an hilarious article about Queen Elizabeth II offering to restore British Rule over the USA. It's a joke, I think, but the offer is still tempting. "This two-hundred-and-forty-year experiment in self-rule began with the best of intentions, but I think we can all agree that it didn’t end well,” she said."
http://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/queen-offers-to-restore-british-rule-over-united-states (http://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/queen-offers-to-restore-british-rule-over-united-states)
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People bought into a lot of marketing from a literal game show host, and the disappointment when he doesn't deliver "great" is forthcoming. But I am less worried about living with him as my president as I am living everyday with half a country that voted for him. I just cannot crawl inside that mindset.
I liked Hillary a lot. She was one of us, whether you like her or not. She very publicly and gracefully faced what 99% of us have had the privilege to do at worst on Facebook, and at best in the privacy of our own marriages, and it didn't break her. I hope at least we can all agree that it's an inspiring example of overcoming this thing we all face everyday.
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Really felt the days of bigots were over, until I woke up today and realized the majority of people who voted, really still are.
I have to say that I voted and I resent being grouped with people who think that the MAJORITY of people who voted for Trump are bigots. That's a pretty broad brush to paint someone with. Just my .02.
We should be celebrating and lifting up our gender whenever and wherever we can.
I could not vote for someone like Clinton just because she was born with a V@g!n@. Abortion, open borders, pay for play, Benghazi........all of these things were intolerable to me. Do I think Trump is great? No, but I think Clinton is worse. My candidate wasn't in the running so I had to choose.
leave the politicking to people who know what they're doing,
Sorry, but I don't think a lot of politicians know what they are doing. The system is broken and corrupt at the core.
In my humble opinion, it doesn't matter who is President, my King still sits on the throne.......
Views from the land of rednecks, good old boys and conservative patriots.
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I voted for Bernie Sanders in primaries and for HC in general elections. I care a lot about social issues that Bernie has been fighting for, like maternity leave, single payer insurance, and debt-free education, curb special interest, etc. I agree with R2T that it is rather scary to wake up in the country where the majority voted for Trump. I also hope that the checks and balances that are part of our Constitutional system will work and that Trump will not be allowed to usurp power. I, frankly speaking do not think that he intends to be a hands on president. He is going to outsource critical decision making to his team, which is Christie, the Bridgegate guy, Guilliani, and Pence. All three of them are equally scary.
While I can appreciate the way Clinton dealt with her family issues, I think she was the least trustworthy candidate from the Democratic party. I deeply disagree with her foreign policy, social issues, and too close for comfort relations with the Walt Street and corporate America, shady regimes in the World. The way she clenched the nomination was marred in insider deals from the leadership of Democratic party, that heavily favoried her over Bernie Sanders. The management of Clinton foundation is another major issue. She was very very vulnerable. I still voted for her, because just about anything was better than Trump. I made myself to go and vote, whereas many people who had semilar reservationd stayed home and that took the Presidency from HC. It is time for reckoning for America. I also agree with LP that the economic growth did not translate into tangible results for many many many people. We all bear responsibility for the current state of affairs in our country.
UM many Republicans might detest Tramp but when it comed to voting they will vote along the party lines. Our system is becoming a two-party version of Soviet Union.
P.S. My second pasport is becoming increasingly attractive at the moment.
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I don't discuss politics thus this is all ya get from me: Everyone I voted for won, so I'm feeling pretty good. Uncertain yes, but I'm an optimist and respect the system and am pleased Obama is leaving.
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I have to say I feel this was the most divisive presidential election I have ever experienced.
The results have left me feeling completely disenfranchised.
I live in a city where whites are no longer the majority -
but I never feel like I don't belong.
I have met and personally know people who practice all forms or religion - including Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddists - and it does not seem to be a problem.
But this election more than any other seemed to be about "us" vs "them".
There seemed to be a yearning to go back to some distant America - when America was "great".
The truth is - there are no easy answers.
No wall which really will keep people out.
Immigration is a much more complex problem than just building a wall.
We need people to pick our produce - work in our slaughter houses - do our most difficult jobs.
These are the jobs that many of the recent immigrants take.
I wonder if we deport all of the illegals what impact this will have on the economy.
Our economy is not so simply fixed by just stopping imports.
Yes, we can manufacture goods here in the US - but we must be willing to pay for those goods at prices that support fair wages.
We are accustomed to pay rock bottom prices for many things.
Prices that can only be sustained at that level by countries that pay pittances compared to us.
How many of us shop at Walmart - where the prices are low and the goods imported from places like China?
Are you willing to replace that shopping with prices that are 10%-20% higher?
Some can - many others can't.
The tougher questions come when we talk about things like abortion rights.
In my city they occassionally find newborns in dumpsters - sealed in plastic bags.
Babies born to crack addicts are not easily adopted.
People with means will find a doctor to secretly perform the procedure - just as happened prior to abortion being legal.
Others may try backroom abortions that are without medical assistance and unsafe to both the fetus and the mother.
This is not to say there there should or should not be abortion.
Only to say there are no easy answers.
I see the resolve to end abortion - but not the resolve to deal with the other problems that will rise as a result.
I assume the affordable health care act will be repealed.
I do not think it is a "given" that this will be replaced with anything else right away.
So what do we do with the uninsured?
Hospitals need money to treat people - they can't just exist on air.
So what is the solution when an uninsured person walks in?
If you are in poverty - you will be covered by medicaid.
If you are not covered by medicaid and have no insurance - then what?
Should the hospital have the right to refuse to accept you as a patient?
Is it OK to take a risk of not being insured and run up huge hospital bills that will bankrupt you?
I don't know the right answers - I only know that the answers are not easy.
What I find so discouraging is that the sides are so polarized.
There is little dialog between positions - only accusations that the other side is wrong.
There seems to be a lack of altruism.
A lack of compassion for anyone who thinks differently.
I have no idea how the elected officials will behave - or what policies they will try to promote or repeal.
I do not have much faith in our sytem - because it seems to me it is broken at the core - there is no dialog, only feuding.
And I find that I feel very sad about all of this.
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A lot of good questions there Airmid and well said! I was stunned at the Brexit vote... stunned! This, pales in comparison.
Sorry but my spare rooms have already been requested and filled.
Hugs Stayed
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Great post, Air.
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I am not going to comment on the US elections because I personally do not know enough about it.....BUT
I do know why I voted as a British citizen to get OUT of the European Union.....
It was because I feel the EU is a defunct outdated organisation that started out as a common trading platform and quickly became something far removed from its beginnings.
It is run by unelected power crazy bureaucrats who were overstepping their remit and bringing in laws that effected my country...
the arrogance of these unelected power crazy people showed no bounds and that scared me more than leaving the EU.
I now believe the EU days are numbered and I believe once it falls, it will make way yet again for what it should have been in the first place, a common trading group
I felt that if I had voted to remain, it would have meant a total loss of power and my countries sovereignty and yes I voted to control our borders because as a small island we are so overcrowded. However I am not a racist or a bigot, far from it.
Infact I know many many Indian, African and others who also voted to leave
I hated the way our courts were overruled by the court of European rights...........and many other things
So as much as I totally respect everyone on here for their stand on MLC and their fortitude and resilience in dealing with what we are dealing with, I totally resent the implication that everyone like me is crazy/mad/bigoted/uneducated etc etc for voting out of the corrupt EU.....but it is no different for the way the UK popular press and media have portrayed people like me.
But let me assure you, I never take my position as a woman who is able to vote lightly, I am passionate about politics and so I always ensure I do my research before voting. Though I have been 'accused' with fellow EU leavers as being ignorant, bigoted, etc....in my experience, having talked to those who voted to remain, it is the remainers who have been caught up in the emotional press propaganda and not me, it is the remainers who have been duped into believing they are the 'educated' and to remain is to vote in an 'informed' way..............because IMO this is only what the people who actually benefit from staying in the EU want them to think..........IMO a lot (not all) of the people who voted to remain in the EU were duped into believing Armageddon if we left by the rich and the media propaganda (paid for by the rich), because it is the rich who stand to lose more when we leave.
Before the EU vote this country (UK) was a country that was going one way, the rich stood to gain from remaining in the EU, (cheaper EU labour, a shortage of affordable housing forcing up rents to make the landlords richer), the UK was heading back to the Victorian era where the rich political classes were in the ascendancy, now I know we face some tough times but IMO the future is brighter and the young in this country will be more thankful. They stand more of a chance of owning their own home here because if we can now get control over our immigration we can be more in control of planning housing, education, health etc........
Because to truly be able to plan for these things you need to be able to have some idea on numbers and we don't.....I live near London, the hospitals, schools, roads are overcrowded, the cost of housing is astronomical, demand outstrips supply over and over..............
As for the US elections, as I said I don't know enough, what I do know is Donald Trump undoubtedly courted the disaffected and maybe the uneducated but also he appealed to a lot more educated people, a lot of people caught in the poverty trap, a lot of people who were sick of career politicians and a vote for Hilary Clinton would have been voting for more of the same politics the US had for years and which had failed a lot of people.......
Personally I don't like the man (Trump) I think he is totally arrogant, but time will tell what sort of president he will be............BUT it is my opinion if the world had kept on going the way it was, with career politicians and unelected bureaucrats we would have sleep walked into a type of dominant communism which would have seen the rich and career politicians getting even more richer and more powerful, which in my book is far scarier than has what happened today..
Who knows what is going to happen going forward, but I have more belief in the power of the oppressed than I ever have and I feel that in 20-30 years time we will look back on what has happened today and with brexit and seeing it as a good day for democracy, because these events have finally killed the arrogance of the political classes and the rich
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I'm an Independent, I didn't vote for Obama or HIllary, YET, he did clean up the mess that was made from the privious administration. I give credit where it's due.
It somewhat amazes me people have such hatred for a healthcare system that would actually benefit them?
No matter what the news lies to you about, Hillary did nothing wrong in Bengazi nor were anything wrong in her emails.
That man who I will NEVER call my president only had roughly 30% of his own state. what does that tell you?
I feel disenfranchised, dissatisfied, and it boggle my mind for a long time to come. I'll make sure I don't leave where I live now while still in this country, I won't be welcomed. The numbers are clear.
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Whoever criticized 'career politicians' and the rich--I'm not going to look so it's not personal and I've heard this from many. Why would you want someone that is not a 'career politician'? I'd expect politicians to be trained for their jobs as are career doctors and lawyers and teachers. And why would anyone think Trump, who is richer than any other politician, represents working class interests? Or that the well established english ruling class will be uprooted by leaving the EU?
I'm heartened that we can have this discussion. Lots of north americans think it's impolite and politics is very important.
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Just imagine, if my Native American ancestors 'built a wall to keep everyone out' Most of the people would NOT be here....including Trump!
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TBH I'm finding the US election results triggering in so many ways. For one thing, it's been tragic to watch (from a safe distance) the tremendous gas-lighting of an ordinary but strong woman ("she's a criminal! emails! Benghazi! ...oh, not actually criminal? Nooo, it must have been criminal!! She's a witch, burn her, burn her!!"). Over and over, investigations reveal no substance to the accusations; but they just piled up, till I'm sure she was doubting her own memory, never mind the electorate's. Feels like we've all seen this sort of thing before...
Also: I'm a brown woman married to a white man. The day after my H asked for a divorce, my FIL told me "The problem is, you're too bloody foreign. Not salt of the earth like me. My son should go marry someone he can relate to, who'd make him real food, who knows what being Canadian means." I understood this as bigotry; my H does not. I cannot forgive it, to this day; my H wishes I could "just get over it". Perspective. My best friend's parents met each other in an internment camp, dispossessed of all they owned because Japanese were The Enemy, that year. Perspective. Yesterday brought my FIL's words roaring back into my mind. I'm as Canadian as he is. How many generations does someone have to live in a country to feel safe, to be considered 'salt of the earth'? To not be classified as exotic, quaint, foreign, strange, deportable? And what will it take for people not at risk of being dispossessed of their sense of belonging, not at risk of being 'othered' by virtue of their skin colour, to realize, yes this is bigotry?
Apologies, this is of course bringing waaaay too much of my personal baggage into a political discussion; but as they say, the personal is political. And in my view the political, in the US, just became personal.
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It somewhat amazes me people have such hatred for a healthcare system that would actually benefit them?
Elegance,
I know, a rational person would think that way. I did at one time. But, the thing is the new healthcare system doesn't benefit these people, the working lower middle class.
Take J
J works 60 hours a week plus and is a metallurgist.
His shop makes parts for NASA and Caterpillar and dozens of other big corporations.
His shop does not offer health insurance.
He applied for Obamacare as required by the law.
The package he was eligible for:
$5,000 deductible
Less than 80% coverage
No prescription drug coverage
No well doctor visits
Cost: 28.5% of his income. One full paycheck a month plus.
His child support is another full paycheck a month.
That totals to 57% of his income.
He couldn't afford a place to live, food, shoes, uniforms for work, heat, electricity, or his transportation to work which is generally either a bicycle or the bus if he complied with the coverage.
That is not helpful. It is not equitable. It is not sensible.
These guys see illegal aliens getting free healthcare.
They see people on welfare getting free healthcare.
But because these guys work rather than lay around on aid, they are stripped of a full paycheck a month for coverage that is next to worthless.
And none could ever cover the deductible much less the 20+% not covered when stripped of one paycheck a month.
As well, stripping them of one paycheck a month puts many of the guys J works with below the poverty line but they can't claim benefits because they work.
So in effect, they would be better off not working.
Now you may think, What happens when or if they get truly ill or injured? The hospitals out here have charity programs with payments according to income and based on other restrictions. For example, J gets charity assistance from the hospital. He applied for it, and had to explain his story to the hospital in writing and in an interview. He is granted charity with the restriction that he pass random drug and alcohol testing which he has to pay for, as well as follow an appointment schedule, and take his medicine correctly as well as continue working. Percentages depend on income and dependents.
While the Obama care system may have helped some, it did not help a huge percentage of workers. As well he is financially penalized at tax time for not having insurance. Yet the owner of his shop made over $2 million last year, and purposefully keeps the employment rolls below the level mandating insurance. He gets around that by hiring temp service workers and then ends their contracts just before required to hire them on.
So yes, to them, they are thrilled with Trumps election. They were a part of the Trump voters who were part of the silent majority.
Lp
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1trouble, like any other EU country, the UK has its sovereignty, in fact, the UK has benefits other countries do not have. For example, the UK does not have Schengen.
EU citizens are not emmigrants, we are EU citizens in any European country. UK citizens are EU nationals here and we were in the UK.
The leave vote pretty much felt like a vote against us, the people of the EU, not against the bureaucrats of the EU. And, by the way, they are elected, we all vote for European Parliament. There are positions there are not elected by the people, but the same is true in every country, like central bank governor or supreme court judge. And you do elect the Queen/King, do you?
What you voted for will not allow me, or any other EU citizen to go to the UK (well, we may, like back in the day, which is of no interest). I has planning to chose an English University to going back to study, now I will not. If Scotland remains in the EU, I may select a Scottish one, but England, and London (my favourite city in the world) have been crossed from my list.
If I was American I do not know who I would voted for. Jill Stein, maybe (my democrat choice was Sanders, but he was no longer in the race). I deslike both Hillary and Donald, and always thought that, for many reasons (other than my dislike), Hillary was an ill suited candidate (none of the reasons had to do with her being a woman), and that the Democrats had made a mistake by having her as their candidate.
But it was easy to know Trump was going to win. It was coming many miles away. I know the only poll that thought it was possible it was the LA times one and that Nate Silver was the only? statistician who included a probable Trump victory, but all it would take was to factor a number of key elements to realise who was going to win.
So, no, I am not surprised, I was expecting it. Do I like it? No.
For me, what is strange in the US election is that one person does not mean one vote. That a president is elected by an electoral college, meaning that someone may even have more votes but will not win. Here, one person equals one vote for the chosen candidate.
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Osb, make him REAL food? How terribly hurtful.
Both my grandparents and great grandparents came over via Ellis Island (ok I’m old ..lol) looking for a better future for themselves and their families. They wanted freedom from the countries they came from. It was a dream for them. (One from Poland, one from Hungary…depending on where the borders were during the wars).
Was there still segregated neighborhoods? Of course. There were the Irish, the Italians, the Hungarians and the Poles. My mom and dad eloped because the families did not agree to their marriage but their love was strong, they raised 5 of us kids and where happily married for almost 60 happy years when my mother passed away at 82 years old.
Their nationality was no barrier for them.
The U.S. is a melting pot and I’m proud of that. I know there are bigots out there but they don’t speak for me. One woman I thought I knew very well said..well, Trump is just saying out loud what most of are afraid to say. : o I’m sorry but I personally call them haters.
He surely does not speak for me!
I have grandkids (12) and great grandkids (4) who are mixed with African American, Mexican American and American Indian. A few through adoption.
I just hope and pray Donald Trump means what he says about being the president for everyone. We’ll see.
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LP,
America needs to adopt single payer health care system, like the rest of civilized world. I feel sorry for people like J. who has to go through the charity process in the local hospital in order to have some access to health care. There is something wrong when the drug companies are allowed to gauge the prices beyond any imagination under the non-sensical and frankly criminal justification that the price reflects research and development investments. Could someone explain to me why we have to pay $2500 for a tube of Zovirax, while the same drug costs $100 just North of the border. These stories go on and on. Like the recent saga with Epipen. I gave birth to my daughter in the US and to my son in Austria. I would take the Austrian system anytime.
Obamacare, in fact does not fix anything it is an ill-concieved program based on the asumption that the more people buy in to the system the lower will be the costs. But it exerts no control over private insurance pricing. In fact, just recently the CEO of United Health Care announced that should the regulators disapprove th company's merger with Humana, his company would drop out health exchange markets. Our health care system is a complete and utter mess. And we pay per capita multiple times more than any industrilized country. Insurance and pharmaceutical industries are running the show. But now, with the Republican congress and Trump in the white house we can forget about having any sensible reforms. Trump is still a big subscriber to Reganomics, i.e. trickle down economics. This means that another financial crisis is just round the corner with unhinged corporations and their greed.
SF
I believe in women's right to choose. It should be a health care decision that every woman should have a right to and not an ideological one, based on religious or other notions. It does not mean that I am advocating abortions, it means that I am for upholding women's consitutional rights. In fact abortion rates under Obama are at all time low.
OSB
I too believe there is a huge racial bias in the results of US elections. I believe that with all its faults, Obama's Presidency was a remarkable 8 years in the history of the US. People are forgetting what total mess he inherited from JWB. He leaves the country in much better shape and he did a lot for our country. And this is done whith a total obstructionist Congress. I for one thing will miss the Obamas. I admire their intellectual and emotional intelligence and leadership.
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Anjae, I couldn't agree with you more! The electoral college made sense YEARS ago but it doesn't anymore and should be thrown out.
It should be one person one vote. winner wins.
If that were the case Hillary (so far) and Al Gore would have been our presidents.
Karmirt I agree. If the Democrats had fought harder, or stood up to the Republicans,we would have gotten a much better healthcare plan but they buckled to ensure the plan was adopted. Big mistake.
Single payer would have been a much better plan.
One more thing, I have been a fan pf Bernie Sanders for many years. (Also Hillary's) I loved both of them and would have voted for either.
I think the problem was people were afraid Bernie was too liberal (socialist) and couldn't get the middle so Hillary seemed more main stream. She, as Bill, could get Independents and some Republicans.
Maybe we were wrong. Maybe people were ready for Bernie after all.
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Anjae, I couldn't agree with you more! The electoral college made sense YEARS ago but it doesn't anymore and should be thrown out.
It should be one person one vote. winner wins.
If that were the case Hillary (so far) and Al Gore would have been our presidents.
I know. Who gets the most votes must be the winner. I think in the UK the system for Parliement is somehow similar, the winner is not who really has the most votes.
Here it is always one person, one vote. Be it Parliement, President, Mayor, head of borough, etc.
I understand how the electoral college works, state X provides Z amount of votes, State B amount A, and that it depends of how many votes are up for grabs in each state, it just does not represent people's true vote.
I think this was one of the big mistakes, to think Hillary could bring in independents as much as Bernie could. She could not.
I think people were ready for Bernie, the establishment, journalists, analysts, etc, missread the people. The people were fed up with political dynasties, and Clinton (any Clinton) is part of those. She also is not likelble or relatable for many (Bernie was), a thing that must always be taken in consideration when running for office (Bill is more likeable than Hillary).
Trump also did not rate high on approval/being liked, but people do not perceive him as being part of the establishment (even if he is a billionaire). It is a big like Farage in the UK; Farage ranted against the EU, but he is a member of the European Parliement, where he makes good money a month.
Bernie is a socialist always makes me smile. For an European he is, at best, a Social Democrat.
Karmit, a tube of Zorivax (50mg) costs €6.60 here, that would be $7,28 (and if a med has National Health Service prescription discount, meds can cheaper than the retail price). One thing to have in consideration, wages are very low in Portugal. A very low wage in the US is a more than good wage in Portugal.
Another thing, free lance workers here have to pay a lot of taxes and to Social Security, often if does not pay to work as a free lance worker unless one has a steady job. Not everything here is roses, but we do pay thounsands of euros for meds. There are meds that cost a lot of money (like for hepatitis c), but, usually, the cost will be payed by the state.
My eyes always go :o when I see how much meds or normal medical treatment costs in the US.
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Thunder,
The problem with Democrats is that they are as vested in corporate interest as Republicans. Citizens United decision of the Supreme Court basically opened a pandora box in politics, allowing uncontrolled infusion of capital in the electoral process. Presidential elections anymore cost billions, equalling the GDP of some countries. It is not only the issue with personalities but the entire process is flawed, including the antiquated Electoral Vote system.
Re. our health care system. In one of his last interviews Obama rightfully admitted that the single payer system is the way to go, but as he said dismantelling the current system is too difficult. We have a disease management system as opposed to health care system, with very limited focus on prevention and healthy life style, i.e. things that do not enrich insurance and big Pharma companies.
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That's funny Anjae.
People go here go to Canada to get cheaper prices on meds.
Something is wrong with this picture. :o
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My MLCH LOVES Trump. Hmmmmmmmmmmm
I think my vote cancelled his out as I live in a blue state. ;D
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Me too Keep, me too. ;D
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Not to disagree but the principle of the electoral college is to
give each state more power.
It sought to reconcile differing state and federal interests, provide a degree of popular participation in the election, give the less populous states some additional leverage in the process by providing “senatorial” electors, preserve the presidency as independent of Congress, and generally insulate the election process from political manipulation.
The Constitution gave each state a number of electors equal to the combined total of its membership in the Senate (two to each state, the “senatorial” electors) and its delegation in the House of Representatives (currently ranging from one to 52 Members). The electors are chosen by the states “in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct “(U.S. Constitution, Article II, section 1).
http://www.history.com/topics/electoral-college
In this election although the vote was very close the country is mostly RED if looked at in a by county perspective.
The big cities are all blue.
Apparently a lot of Democrats stayed at home and did not vote.
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Yes, something is wrong with that picture.
Of course meds here are more expensive than what we pay for them with a National Health System prescription (GP, hospital, etc), but never in the range of the US. And people like Grandmother and my mother (and many others) have a special discount on the prescription. We also have meds that do not require prescriptions.
So that you have an example, aunt's was treated for free for her cancer in the hospital. Grandmother was treated for free on the hospital.
For free, of course, meaning a portion of taxes is allocated to the National Health System.
I think our system is similar to other EU ones as well as to the UK one. In its present form, its origin, in the late 1970's, was inspired by the British National Health System.
Ours is mostly the creation of a lawyer and politian called António Arnaud, the British one was invented by Aneurin Bevan, a welshman that come up with the idea in, if I am not mistaken, the early 1950's.
Canada's health care system is a creation of Tommy Douglas, who first intruduce it one of Canada's provinces in the 1950's.
Arnaud is a socialist, Bevan was labour, Douglas was a social democrat. Currently, the Portuguse Social Democrat Party is more of a right-centre party than a social democrat party, and the socialist are a mix of socialist, social democrats and liberals.
Looks like it takes a socialist/labour/social democrat to come up with one of those systems.
But not all is faboulous around here. And, often, charities are necessary to help people.
Like as any other country, we could do better for our people. In many ways we have regressed in key areas.
Of course we have health insurances and private medicine for those who want or can afford. When I lived in the capital and my life was financially afluent, I would see private specialists. But even those, when compared with the US, are cheap €55 to €100. However, those values are not affordable for most Portuguese. They are not affordable for me now.
We also have "distritos" (the big parts in which Portugal is divided, we do not have states or a state and a federal law; we have small municipal laws) with more population that others. In those, it is still one person, one vote.
X % of votes in party Z, will mean X % of votes for party Z in distrito A and K % of votes in distrito B; X % of votes for party S in the same distrito will mean X % of votes for party S in said distrito and L % in another distrito. Those % translate in MPs. For president it is the number of votes each person gets. We do not have winner takes it all.
I noticed the US was almost all red, with the cities being Blue. I think that matched the Brexit referendum in the UK, the cities mostly voted remain. By the way, blue in the UK is the Conservatives, Labour is red. When Cameron last was elected, England and Wales were mostly Blue. Scotland was yellow, for the Scottish National Party. I don't recall what Northern Ireland was like.
Karmit, yes, a US Presidential costs billions that are many countries GDP. I think they cost more than our GDp. We don't even have billionaires.
Here each party receives a certain amount from the state. They are allowed to receive donations, but those are limited, ten thousand euros is the most for a person or corporation, I think.
Our current president spend one hundred thousand and fifty seven euros in his campaign. A good portion of the money was his, from a brother and a friend. He did not accepted money from corporations. Ironically, the candidate who spend the most money was the communits one (yes, we have a communist party that seats in Parliement and is currently part of the three government parties), three quarters of a million euros.
We also cannot buy political adds, each party or presidencial candidate has an amout of time on the national TV. Ourdoors posters and lieflets are allowed. And no one can come knock on our doors and takes to vote.
Bottom line, each country should always stive to do better for their citizens. And, in the case of the US, since the US has such a huge power in the world, for the people of the world.
Mr J was always social democrat/socialist (depending of the programs of each party), now he is far left. He is also a freedom and social crusader who slams any authority and is up to fight for everyone's freedeom but my own. I must obey his rule and reason. Which makes me laugh.
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I think you are right, OP.
My X has never stayed home and not voted (first time in his life ) did not vote.
He is a strong liberal but felt he had no one to vote for after Bernie was out.
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Whatever! Your country's in trouble. It has been exposed for what it is truly like. It is ROTTEN at it's core. I am so glad I do not live in such a $hit hole! I wish I could get further away from it cause the stink is really bad and I live in terror that whatever disease you have, it will spread to Canada.
I truly hope we have more courage then you people do. Sadly though, I heard stories of racism in Toronto, which breaks
my heart, I hope that having seen what our neighbours to the south have become, that we heed the warning and do not follow them down that path.
Stayed
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I would ask if you could come back to Europe, Stayed, but things here are also starting to look crazy. Not in Portugal, but in France (and willget worst next year with their presidential election), Poland, Hungary, the mess in the Uk. And Germany and Austria are also seing their right wing coming out. We know what that means.
Ist't Justin Trudeau a good prime-minister? Racism in Toronto? My idea of Canada (and I know it must be wrong) is if a liberal place.
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Very liberal Anjae. Just a bunch of bleeding socialists and we like it that way. Our prime minister is a young man, extremely good looking, smart, but sadly HE LOVES TO SPEND. He thinks we can spend our way out of our national debt... scary. I fear he is spending my great grandchildren, great childrens futures.
Other then that I am happy here. I was very worried when I read about some resent racial taunting in Toronto, which stuns me because seriously, there are more shades of brown in Toronto, then their are whites. Lol. We lived there for a year and it was fun, very diverse, multicultural, everybody was willing to share their culture with each other. I remember the class picture, there were 4 little white faces in a class of 20+ kiddies, and the kiddies didn't even notice. I remember my son asking me what the name of the boy was who had been out in the sun too much.
To see my country become discriminatory now, would break my heart. My friends in the south have already staked their claim to our spare rooms in Canada but one is complaining about the weather, hehehe. NYC is just like Toronto. I admit it's a little colder further north where I live, but it is nice and sunny, for the most part. Summers are really hot though, hehehe.
P.S.- I loved living in Europe. If my kids were all there, we would have stayed I think. WE saw an add for a 2 month stay in Porto, Portugal. We think we might do that, after we get our house built.
Hugs Stayed
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I have seen photos, he is good looking indeed.
Too much spend is a problem in many countries, Portugal included. From what I manage to gather, often the spend is not to the best future interest of the country and its people, but for vanity/show-off projects and ideas. Everyone seems to want to leave their mark and they just spend, spend, spend.
Our current government is doing some re-shifting of spending, but, in my opinion, is still spending too much in things that are not beneficial long term.
Toronto for me means cinema (TIFF comes to mind), film and tv crews from all over the world filming there, museums, arts & culture, so, in that regard, a place where I think I would feel at home. The racism part is not good. It never is. Hope is does not escalate and it is just an isolate insident (or incidents).
Every Canadian with friends from the Southern nation is most likely going to asked for spare rooms. Nice and sunny sounds good to me. Too hot Summers not so much, but right now, fortunately, I am not in need to move further north to the other side of the Atlantic.
Portugal has had more than its share of bad times. We endured a 48 years dictarship (I was still born under it), with many having to run to France, Germany, Canada and US to escape it and the dire live that existed by then.
Two months stay in Porto sounds like a great idea. :) Mitzpah is also considering coming here. You know I had not been exactly thrilled with had to move back here, but, somehow, I think it may be the right place. I do miss the energy and the multicultural diversity of Lisboa, but Lisboa has become a city that is not very good to its residents. Great for turists, not so great if you have to live there daily and go to work.
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Jeez Stayed. Don't hold back. ;D
I wouldn't be too holier-than-thou. There's a lot of racism [against first nations and Indians] in Canada. And lots of that rural poverty that no-one sees. And that progressive modern invention, the food bank. :P
The US is very different as so much of the power is in the hands of state and local governments. Also isn't the population of Canada the same as California?
But yeah, they say, if the US sneezes Canada gets a cold.
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I may be mistaken but isn't there a bit of conflict between the Quebecois and most of the rest of Canada?
Quebec is one of my favorite provinces. My wife and I stayed overnight at Le Chateau Frontenac in Quebec City a couple of times. Those were great trips. I love that city.
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/E_TFMxhqO60/hqdefault.jpg)
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So just got home from my Library job and was talking w/ a co worker about my awful experience last night working at the polls and couldn't quite get why the other poll workers were being so nasty to me. And then it hit me.
Trump kept saying the election was 'rigged' against him. I realize now they were doing all they could to keep me away from the votes, assuming I voted for Hillary and maybe was going to 'rig' the votes.
Racism would be nice if it weren't so covert, yet geeze. I had no idea what was going on! How could I 'rig' votes anyway? lol
I often get mistaken what race I am. What and who do they think I am? Why couldn't I just enjoy the democratic process and not give a damn who people voted for? I sent in my ballot weeks ago, and neither Trump nor Clinton was who I chose.
Oh. I completely forgot most people assume incorrectly I am Latina when I don't have a drop in me. lol
Trump instilled FEAR into people of everyone!
Turned on the news when I got in and see protests all over the country. sigh, this is going to be a very long dreaded four years :(
Just may start inquiring about moving to another country to get away from the madness that was just elected.
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Stayed stated:
Whatever! Your country's in trouble. It has been exposed for what it is truly like. It is ROTTEN at it's core. I am so glad I do not live in such a $hit hole! I wish I could get further away from it cause the stink is really bad and I live in terror that whatever disease you have, it will spread to Canada.
I lived in Canada for 50 years. I grew up in Quebec as an anglophone and lived through the FLQ crisis as well as several terms of the Parti Quebecois.
I have lived in the United States of America for 13 years. I lived in Pennsylvania and Colorado and have travelled to many other states. But most importantly I have lived here and so I have reason to be able to say what I am about to say.
The United States of America is a wonderful country. It is not "rotten to the core" nor is it a "$hit hole". It has it's problems like other countries do, there are both good and bad people here as there are all over the world.
Living in the United States of America, becoming a US citizen has been one of the best experiences in my life. The American people that I have encountered living here for 13 years have been generous, passionate about what they believe in, kind hearted and caring. I have never felt unsafe, I have never encountered anyone who would make a statement like the one above about my birth country Canada.
This is what breeds hatred folks. The inability to accept differences among nations. Yes, there are differences between the two countries just as there are great differences in Canada between the French and the English, someone from the east coast compared to someone from the west. That doesn't make one "better" or "worse" than the other.
To make a blanket statement about the United States of America, especially when you have never lived here is bigotry at it's best.
I am not happy with the election results but I am still grateful to live in a democracy.
God Bless the United States of America!
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Quebec is lovely! I particularly love Quebec City, where you stayed. Also, we have had ongoing issues with Quebec, they have their own party....Bloc Québécois. Quebec has tried to separate more then once. We even had the Bloc as the minority government for quite a few years. We got through it.
Canada has 3 main parties, two that actually jockey back and forth in power... but we have a 3rd party that keeps us honest and more socialist then perhaps some would like. Not to mention, all kinds of other parties. Our parties select their leader of their parties and then when we vote for our jurisdiction, the leader of the party with the most nominations becomes the Prime Minister.
Believe me Calamity I am very aware of our Native peoples issues. I lived in the west for a good many years and we have a reservation nearby to my hometown. Canada is far from perfect. There have been many mistakes made with our Native People and trying to correct it always seems to involve "throwing money" at them, which is gratefully enjoyed at the time but sadly doesn't really help them. Band aid solutions... the world is guilty of those type of solutions.
Still, it's pretty nice here. Our weather is lovely, the scenery is pretty spectacular across the entire country, even the prairies. I'd rather live here then anywhere else and I have lived in quite a few places.
I'm delighted you love the United States Xyz. I am even more delighted you are becoming a citizen. Funny, I thought you grew up in Whitby, Ontario... guess I got that wrong! Not that it matters. Enjoy your new country... but I'll stay here in mine!
Hugs Stayed
is
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Well said, xyz. Especially for an immigrant. ;)
The USA has no monopoly on intolerance and bigotry but, although I've traveled extensively in Canada, I had never experienced it from a Canadian. This has been quite a day.
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I lived in Virginia for two long years. I saw and heard so many racial comments, pretty much on a daily bases. If it wasn't about the black neighbourhood that you had to go through to get to the golf course it was rude comments about the "white trash" that lived over in the trailer park or up the mountain.
I have never felt very safe in the states, so I don't go there, unless I have to. Way too many guns for me!
I haven't heard or seen any racial comments in Canada, ever actually, but I heard today on the news that there was some racial slurs being tossed around. Here where I live... nothing like that. Or in Ottawa. Heck, I haven't even heard any comments about the French / English slurs, that actually do occur in Ottawa quite often. On both sides actually, although I haven't heard any at all in this entire year, since we retired and returned home.
There were some really bad days with Quebec, Prime Minister actually the War Measures Act in 1970 the October Crisis. In 1970, members of the FLQ kidnapped British diplomat James Cross and Quebec provincial cabinet minister Pierre Laporte, who was later murdered, raised fears in Canada of a militant terrorist faction rising up against the government.
So, we have had our issues. We've also had issues with our Native Peoples in Quebec. The Oka Crisis was a land dispute between a group of Mohawk people and the town of Oka, Quebec, Canada, which began on July 11, 1990, and lasted until September 26, 1990. A land dispute between the Mohawk Tribe and a town that wanted to build a golf course. The Native People claimed it was a sacred burial grounds. One person was killed, big dispute over who shot him. Some claimed it was a police bullets, the police claim it was a Native persons bullet.
Canada is not Nirvana, but at least marijuana should be legalized within the next year or so, plus we now can buy beer and wine in our grocery stores. Progress or what eh?
Hugs Stayed
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This article says what a lot of us are feeling I believe (NOT just US Americans, even those ex-pats like me)
http://johnpavlovitz.com/2016/11/09/heres-why-we-grieve-today/ (http://johnpavlovitz.com/2016/11/09/heres-why-we-grieve-today/)
I commented that it was the TONE of the campaign, the harsh and ugly Election Rhetoric that was the problem... The statements that Trump made AFTER the election
are a total departure of the potty-mouth antics of the election because, well, let's face it, he got himself splattered into the media every single day for 16 months by
saying something inflammatory.... When one looks at his real record, he is actually more liberal than Clinton in areas of free-trade and business (or at least he was)
Unfortunately words and ICBMs have things in common: Once they are shot off, you can not get them back and when they strike, it makes one he|| of a mess.... The hate, bigotry and all the rest of the ills have been loosed from Pandora's Box in this campaign and the results of the vote show that those who voted for Trump followed his line of rhetoric. Does he actually THINK that way? Only time will tell but the box has been opened and the ills have been released into the world.
The real question is whether or not the world can find its way back to grace and away from hatred, bigotry, and all the other "'isms" that were spouted in the campaign, whether or not we allow our basest primordial instincts to rule us as men and women of violence or whether we can find our way back to civilized (note I do NOT say Politically correct) discourse and critical thinking.....
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UM,
That article is EXACTLY why people here are grieving.
Thank you for posting it. :)
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As I watched the news yesterday , I could understand how some of you in the US were feeling . I had that feeling the morning after the UK voted out of Europe . We sat in our office the next morning and we were all stunned at the result .
We sat like that again yesterday because I don't think any of us thought that Trump would actually get in . We have had extensive coverage of the US Election on our TV for months and months and we are still having it this morning . One thing I noticed was that a lot of our new anchors seemed shocked to be announcing the results !!!
I like what Obama had said about whatever the result the sun would come up the next day , someone said something very similar over Brexit and they are right it did . It seems that both the US and the UK has some interesting and challenging times ahead .
Callan
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It's long. It's not sugar coated. Feel free to skip it entirely.
Like many here, it's hard to get my brain around a Trump presidency even though I recognized that the current political climate, could well result in Trump being the Republican nominee and the winner of the presidential election. The thought appalled me at every level, but working for the rights of women and other marginalized people for 35 years has made it clear that we are a divided country and that racism and sexism are alive and well and a good number of women do nternalize sexism and fight against our own (and other women's) progress and rights because we are socialized to be "good girls," not rock the boat, not exhibit too much intellect or confidence (go along to get along). The anti-suffrage movement was large and extremely organized and comprised of women. Phyllis Schlafely and other women notoriously fought against the Equal Rights Amendment and the second wave of the women's rights movement. And most days I still hear at least one woman say something along the lines of, "I'm not a feminist, but..." (and then proceed to discuss all the ways she believes as a feminist or benefits from the work feminists have done to pave the way for her to be able to vote, earn a living, go to school, etc.). For the record, a feminist is simply a person (woman or man) who believes in the political, social, economic and educational equality of women and men. All of the nonesense, myths and stereotypes, including the deeply offensive "Feminazi" term is about intimidating and punishing, or shaming women away from our own equality. Don't bother giving examples of women who go too far or "hate men." I'm tired of defending the obvious. While much of those stories are exaggerations and urban legend meant to discredit feminism, please note that extremists and true feminists are not the same thing at all, so take care not to hijack and misuse the term.
And speaking of maligned, Hillary Clinton is judged in such a cliche way, held to a different standard, and had myths and lies perpetrated against her for more than 30 years. The target has been on her back so long that she had no chance to escape the dehumanizing and discrediting. No politician is a saint, including Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders, for that matter. I have nothing against Bernie and agreed with the majority of his points, but there was no one more qualified than Hillary Clinton. Her track record for getting things done was longer and more significant. A number of his ideas were wonderful, but not realistic to actually accomplish and even he admitted he didn't know how he would do some of what he proposed. Bernie also escaped the vitriol and attacks precisely because he had not been in the public eye to the same extent and level as Hillary and had thus not been painted as an enemy of the more extremist Republicans for decades. When a person hasn't been a threat to the powers that be, they won't be attacked and maligned for years, and will then look pretty "clean" in comparison.
Again, no politician is a saint and don't agree with any of them, including Hillary, on everything, but much of what Hillary is accused of didn't happen as reported or was greatly exaggerated or misrepresented. How many Americans actually read the official report about the emails, for example? It does not depict what Trump says or even what Comey said in August, but it's not difficult to see how easy it is to discredit and create suspicion around a woman who dares to push past the status quo and be smart and strong and potentially powerful. God help her. The backlash is ugly and will go to whatever lengths it takes to put her back in her place and keep her there. Trump knows that. So he spouted lies and absurdities and misrepresentations every chance he got and all too many Americans --women included--were willing to believe it, many without ever having read objective, well researched articles, seeking facts from multiple, reputable, diverse sources, etc. That is what systemic sexism is and every one of our daughters is a potential target of it, so we need to see this kind of assault for what it is. If Hillary was held accountable only for her actual actions, and then compared to Trump's actions, it should have been a landslide in her favor. But not in a country that claims to be progressive while women still do not have constitutional equality, let alone a woman ever serving as President. And not in a country where no Democratic candidate for president since Lyndon Johnson has won a majority of white votes. Take that in, America. Really grasp what that says. And not in a country where a man is elected president who accused our sitting president of not being a citizen of the United States (birther movement) and was endorsed by the KKK. Where a black church was burned and pro-Trump messages were written on it. Not in a country where Trump supporters chant "Jew-S-A," rather than USA at reporters in their midst at rallies, because Trump blames bad media coverage on "the Jews who own the media outlets." Where the FBI is reported by some of its own agents to be "Trumpland" leaking lies and information to the likes of Guiliani and others just days before the election. Where Russian hackers go after Clinton because it works much better for Russia to have an arrogant chump in office than a President they could not outsmart and not out maneuver. Where a candidate for President can call people from Mexico murders and rapists, can sexually harass and assault women, had a lawsuit against him and another man for child rape, is being sued for Trump University, can refuse to reveal his taxes and his foreign investments and potetial conflicts of interest, and where a candidate can have Twitter wars about a Gold Star family, attack women for their age, weight and breast size, and blame them for their spouse's infidelity. A country where a Presidential candidate can mock a differently abled person, accuse a judge of misconduct because he is Mexican, say he will build a wall (like the Berlin Wall), will deport millions, will ban and "register" Muslims, will repeal LGBTQ gains and the Affordable Care Act that serves more than 20 million Americans. Where his running mate is an even more horrifying right-wing ideologue than Trump.
Exactly what does it take to disqualify a person from arguably the most powerful position in the free world? Apparently it takes any misstep and exaggerated reports about an email server for Clinton and the fact that she needs to smile differently or speak differently, but the sky's the limit for Trump. THAT is a double standard. We voted in a man who appears to be narcissistic, racist, mysogynistic, Xenophobic, homophobic, has a quick temper, and a divisive personality with zero public or military service/experience and even less understanding of the world around him and the global implications of being a loose canon. America needs our ally support. These are dangerous times. We need people watching our backs and coming to our aid as we have needed other times. We wouldn't even be a country were it not for France. We are not an island unto ourselves. Yes, Trump can charm when needed and sound reasonable--when it serves him--but we have seen his true colors and heard the tapes of his own words when he didn't know he was being recorded.
It is also not typically helpful not to vote or to give a write-in or a protest vote---especially not this year. I understand it is our right to vote however we wish, but a vote for a third party, a write-in, or no vote at all was ultimately a vote for the Trump presidency, according to the analysts. Too much was at stake here domestically and globally this election. This was not the time to not participate or to make a "statement" that ended up helping Trump get elected. Did people think Bernie was joking when he begged everyone to vote for Hillary? The last thing he wanted was a Trump presidency. It puts everything he worked for and wants at risk more than any other outcome. There comes a point when we have to very seriously consider and understand potential outcomes and do our part to cut off the electoral path of a demagogue like Trump. People tend to hesitate to compare him to Hitler, but there are similarities in the way he has come to power and what he used to get here---fear and hate mongering, making people feel even more disenfranchised and like he is their only savior, pitting groups against each other, villifying and dehumanizing people, threats and bullying, etc. As for "change"---what a farce. Trump is more a "politician" than most politicians and the same old Republic guard was voted in. This is neither change nor anti-establishment.
I have had the honor of meeting Hillary Clinton on more than one occasion and being close friends with people who are close friends of hers. She has always exuded kindness, genuiness, compassion, humor and self deprication, intelligence, and dedication. The people who are close to her and have been for years, describe her similarly. She has dedicated her life to justice and the marginalized since she was a teenager. How many Americans have any real idea who Hillary is or what she has done through the span of her life, beyond what was spouted on TV or overheard or repeated as truth whether it was or not? She didn't arrive on the scene with Bill. She was a force unto herself before that and is, in my opinion, the more qualified Clinton, though---again--not perfect. She had one of the highest--if not the highest--ratings as Secretary of State and was a popular Senator. How soon we forget and how willing we are to still allow women to be villified for daring to apsire to the level that their qualifications should allow.
Watching the hope go out of my daughter's eyes on election night of this first year that she was elligible to vote was heartbreaking. Yet, I knew the US takes for granted our voting rights with typically only around 57% of elligible voters voting, and that our country is divided and fear, misinformation, ignorance, bigotry, and/or frustration might rule the day and the election, but I held out hope that we are better than that. Women, people of color, and others who fought beside us for the right to vote, suffered, and some died. Yet, that sacrifice is dismissed when that right is taken for granted. Thankfully, it wasn't by those who exercised their right to vote, made their voice heard, understood the stakes and took them seriously.
A devastating statement has been made about our country and the way we devalue women, people of color, people of various cultures and religions, the LGBTQ community, ... The underbelly has been exposed for what it is, but times like these are when movements are born and when good people stand up, speak out, and take action.
Our country and our world are divided and growing more so of late. It behooves us to heed the warning signs and come together as countries and continents and a global family. Our lives and the lives of our friends, neighbors, children and grandchildren depend on it.
If you are so inclined, look for ways to get involved, to be a part of making sure that we hold on to what is good and just and fair. We need to show our children that we are not going to let things fall apart. We are not going to allow them to inherit an absurd legacy. We are not going to quietly accept the loss of rights and the gains that have been made, the destruction of our Supreme Court, and a mockery of our federal judge appointments. Find an organization to support financially, a group to join and actively work for, sign a petition, organize a resistance march, write something for your local newspaper or a blog, gather friends, family, and neighbors for a roundtable discussion about what you can do to mitigate the outcome of this election, get to know Muslim and immigrant community members, work for gender equality. When we feel like retreating and licking our wounds, that is the time we most need to advance, and speak up and fight on.
All is not lost unless, we the people, allow it to be. The election results demonstrate what collective action can do and the same collective action can be used for GOOD. As Clinton herself said in her concession speech, "Scripture tells us not to grow weary in doing good, for in good season we shall reap. My friends, let us have faith in each other, let us not grow weary and lose heart, for there are more seasons to come and there is more work to do."
Phoenix
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1trouble, like any other EU country, the UK has its sovereignty, in fact, the UK has benefits other countries do not have. For example, the UK does not have Schengen.
Thank goodness
The leave vote pretty much felt like a vote against us, the people of the EU, not against the bureaucrats of the EU.
I cannot help it if you feel like a vote to leave was a personal vote against you and other Europeans but the fact that I have heard this before in various televised discussions makes me wonder where it came from and I wonder if this was some sort of psychological propaganda that obviously hit a chord somewhere.....
Why has Britain's right to vote out of the European Union become so emotional ???????
Could it also be that some of the leaders of the European Union started using this emotional language and the European press and its now been picked up?
Lets face it, it would suit the bureaucrats if the light was shone on the british people and not them!
It angers me that the facts of why most people voted to leave have not been properly reported. Even the BBC, if they ever give any coverage to someone who voted leave, will find the most bigoted uneducated person they can find to say why they left.
It was not personal against Europeans at all......we want to be part of the world including Europe but on our own terms...not dictated ones
And, by the way, they are elected, we all vote for European Parliament. There are positions there are not elected by the people, but the same is true in every country, like central bank governor or supreme court judge. And you do elect the Queen/King, do you?
I am well aware we have MEP's who we vote for, however the real power in Brussels lies with the people like Jean-Claude Juncker and his other power crazy cronies, comparing them to our Queen and Royal family who have no real power is like comparing a fish with an apple!.
And the Governor of the bank of England is only responsible for monetary policy, this is not at all comparable to the like of Jean-Claude Junker.....unless of course the Governor of the Bank of England started to want to control the army and maybe change the why our constitution works and our laws.....
You also mention the Supreme court judges, this is another big bug bear here in England, or courts were being over ruled on fundamental points of British law by the European courts.......and some pretty wacky decisions were and have been made.... which, if this wasn't so serious, would be laugable ...........
What you voted for will not allow me, or any other EU citizen to go to the UK (well, we may, like back in the day, which is of no interest). I has planning to chose an English University to going back to study, now I will not. If Scotland remains in the EU, I may select a Scottish one, but England, and London (my favourite city in the world) have been crossed from my list.
Sorry but what rot!! I didn't vote to stop you going to University here or anyone else, I voted to stop Brussels turning what was a common trading platform into a federal state, I voted to stop the erosion of British law, to keep our army, to have control over our borders, to be allowed to trade with the rest of the world. To allow us to be able to decide on our future and not be dictated too....
And anyway, by your own admission you are saying you now don't want to come here so my vote hasn't stopped you, you have crossed England off your list!!
Being out of the EU does not mean Britain has shut the door on all Europeans, it means it can open its doors to the rest of the world and means we can chose who we want to come here and who we do not want to come here.
At the moment in the area I live they cannot build enough homes, there is a big homeless problem,even though they are building on every time bit of land that comes available, it takes over two weeks to get an appointment at the doctors, it takes nearly an hour to drive somewhere which should only take 20 minutes, the trains are fit to bursting, the schools don't have places for the amount of pupils, everywhere is getting more and more crammed full, rents are going up and up, the price of properly too, its now impossible for most young people to ever be able to afford to buy their own home...............these are facts of life in the UK today.....
And if you want to look at why the vote swung the way of the leavers in the Brexit vote then look no further than Jean Claude Junker and his team, as if he had not been so arrogant in his belief that the UK would not dare to leave and given David Cameron some real tangible changes to put to the British people, when he visited Brussels at the beginning of the year, we wouldn't be in this position............BUT instead he would not negotiate or give him anything and that gave a strong message to me and others that Brussels did not care a jot about our concerns.....
As for the comparison of the Brexit vote and the Trump vote....IMO there are no real comparisons other than the shock result............
The good thing............because I am an optimist is before these two votes there was total apathy, even the campaigns run on brexit and the American presidential elections were lazy and divisive, we were all in danger of sleep walking into a world being run by the media, spin doctors and faceless power crazy bureaucrats .....
People are now engaging in politics, many for the first time, people are starting to care who governs them and in future we will see more people turning out to vote and that can only be a good thing for democracy in the long run.
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"People are now engaging in politics, many for the first time, people are starting to care who governs them and in future we will see more people turning out to vote and that can only be a good thing for democracy in the long run."
I have to agree with you. I am a political junky but I see and know people who are so disengaged. I've asked them who their local officials are and they have no idea yet they get all bent out of shape if their officials make a decision that effects them.
People don't need to live politics every day but at least do your homework, know who you are voting for and why? It's not that hard people.
So yes, this was a wake up call!
Sorry, I can't comment on the European Union. :)
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It was not personal against Europeans at all......we want to be part of the world including Europe but on our own terms...not dictated ones
I don't want to be drawn into the rest of your points 1T but this is valid.
My MLCer H has had his own successful business for years - trading worldwide and having some control over it. However, and despite his MLC, in the last few years "Europe" has interfered and, anyone who wants to trade in Europe now in the level of equipment my H designs, has to qualify for a series of markings and certificates.
Bear in mind, his products have out lasted his European rivals with considerably fewer set backs or needs for "correction/replacement" over the last 20+ years. However, now, in order to have the certificate and marking, he has to have the equipment tested to new EU standards. Nothing wrong with that in principle but the initial test set up cost £30K - yes £30k for a one man business - no sliding scale. The test is completed by BSI /EU.
Every time he makes a design change and he often has to as the nature of the product requires a sense of custom made , the EU, not the BSI, insists that he has subsequent tests which cost him £4- 5K testing each new component. By component, I mean electronic components so a capacitor (costing 0.003 of a penny) has a very expensive test applied to it.
He then told BSI/EU that he would trade the product with China and Asia and was told that, unless he had the specific mark which, technically is only essential for selling this product in Europe, his product would be vetoed by the EU.
This has only happened in the last few years...... prior to that the same product was being bought and used very successfully and was incredibly safe. In fact H has been called out by British companies to replace other "foreign" manufacturer's products because they were not durable or safe after a period of time.
Consequently my H wanted out and a chance to trade on better and less strangling terms.
I have never met my MEP - my MEP has never sent me any info on why I should vote for them and what they are doing for me and yet my MEP is telling me why I should vote to keep them in Europe. This is not what I call working for your constituency.........
So there are other reasons for people voting out of Europe.
I exercised my right to vote and irrespective of whether I like the result or not, many more people voted in the referendum than in a general election so democracy spoke and it is up to all of us to live with this to the very best of our ability.
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his article says what a lot of us are feeling I believe (NOT just US Americans, even those ex-pats like me)
http://johnpavlovitz.com/2016/11/09/heres-why-we-grieve-today/
I commented that it was the TONE of the campaign, the harsh and ugly Election Rhetoric that was the problem... The statements that Trump made AFTER the election
are a total departure of the potty-mouth antics of the election because, well, let's face it, he got himself splattered into the media every single day for 16 months by
saying something inflammatory.... When one looks at his real record, he is actually more liberal than Clinton in areas of free-trade and business (or at least he was)
Unfortunately words and ICBMs have things in common: Once they are shot off, you can not get them back and when they strike, it makes one he|| of a mess.... The hate, bigotry and all the rest of the ills have been loosed from Pandora's Box in this campaign and the results of the vote show that those who voted for Trump followed his line of rhetoric. Does he actually THINK that way? Only time will tell but the box has been opened and the ills have been released into the world.
This is the point URSA (one of many--including multiple examples-- in my novel length post :-\ ). I am talking about actions and a long history of them. Trump's own words when he didn't know he was being recorded and certainly didn't hope anyone would ever hear it. Also the many many things that he said (and was filmed saying) long before he ran for office. There were also allegations of sexual assault during the divorce with his first wife. He had no issue with Howard Stern calling his daughter a "piece of @ss" and said more than once that he (Trump) would date and sleep with her if she wasn't his daughter. And there has been recorded information released from his television show (off camera snippets) indicating tremendous mysogyny and racism, lawsuits going back decades that implicate Trump in discriminatory housing lawsuits in which people testified he used the "N" word," and refused to rent to non-whites and on and on.
This is not a political stunt and if Hillary had said or done any one of these things she would have been crucified. The readiness of so many to "drink the kool-aid" and overlook all of it is exactly what is so frightening. That's why so many others are asking exactly how bad does it need to be to matter? If this was a political stunt, and it's not (he has too much history of doing this very thing, along with sexual harassment and assault) he would have the worst judgement for office.
He also is not liberal or necessarily conservative. He claimed to be a prochoice democrat not that long ago and for many years prior, and originally wanted to run as an Independent, so his only commitment is to whatever gets him the most votes depending on the audience he's speaking to. He is an opportunist with no real idea what he's doing or why. He saw an opportunity among a certain faction of the population and he exploited it and played it. Those who voted for him have been played worse than anyone. He will continue to be a divisive embarrassment to the US and a boil on the face of our history. Watch. Same for Mike Pence who had businesses leaving his state and people unwilling to visit there until he stepped back his crazy anti-LGBTQ policies. He knew he was going to lose his office in the next election and then presto, in walked Trump offering him a new job. Pence alienated his state, but now is supposed to be good for the country? Not likely.
And I don't just take information from the news. I do my own homework and research and have followed Trump a long time, because he has always been a concern and has had political aspirations for longer than many realize.
Trump is an orange, blow hard, jack@ss, who has repeatedly run business into the ground, made more enemies than you can imagine, has cheated on all of his three wives, doesn't pay the people who do work for him (or his taxes) and all the rest from my previous post. Some people are all too willing to accept and be lulled into a complacency, but I have never been an "Ignorance is bliss" person. It doesn't make me feel better it just makes me feel...ignorant.
Phoenix
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I agree Phoenix.
I'm guessing Trump will be the puppet and Pence will be the real president, just like Cheney was.
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This is a website for standing, not politics ;)
Jk, couldnt resist!
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Trump is actually a dissatisfied life long DEMOCRAT who is racist and unhappy a Black man was president so he switched to Republican to get in a couple of years ago. Who knows how he will govern? I all heard was the blatant bigotry, racism and sexism that turned my stomach.
Most recently I heard him say something about infrastructure, which is a Democratic platform.
I really feel he did it for the perceived power. This situation is just... yet who knows how it will really go because the Republicans see him as a puppet who they can pull his strings and have him repeat the same regular talking points, while robbing the poor, non white and disabled just to get them richer. The Republicans, and everyone else who voted for this clown will figure this out one day.
When you really think about it, your local state Governor has more power than any US President ever will.
Thanks LP, I understand better :)
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Funny, DJ.
It does say "Off Topic." lol
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The Republican right-wing is no less dangerous or scary than Trump. It doesn't matter whether he is a puppet. Plus, he is the one who represents the US, speaks with world leaders, perhaps even while fondling their wives. ::).
There have also been speculations that Trump won't stay in office and that it was never the establishment's plan that he does. Pence as President would be a major coup for the far right and may have been their plan all along, but Pence's unpopularity would have made it impossible for him to get in on his own. If that's the case, I would guess Trump is an unwilling participant in his own political demise as his ego wants this position. I am truly not a conspiracy theorist and don't put any real stock in such speculation, but it would be easy for Trump to be ousted from inside. All it would take is the right adultery photo op or the right leaking of information related to the current investigations and lawsuits against him. I don't believe there is a lot of warm fuzzy feelngs between Trump and the Republican party. He is likely some kind of ends to a means just as Trump's base was an ends to his.
In other conspiracy news, there was mention today that, due to the polls being uniquely off base, some reporters are asking for investigations into the possibility that Russia, or another country who would benefit from us having an inexperienced, gullible president, hacked election results. The conspiracy theories are bound to continue for awhile as though the truth is not bad enough. I am just going to try to enjoy Obama's remaining time in office. We won't see his kind of leadership or dignity for a while.
Phoenix
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Phoenix your article was amazing. Incredible even! It breaks my heart that so many American's including many here, let their OWN personal issues rule the day. With absolutely no regard for the rest of their nation, the rest of the world, they ELECTED one of the most repulsive men, I have EVER listened to.
I am so disgusted, so horrified, I can't even explain myself. I have NEVER in my 64 years been more REPULSED and horrified then I am at this moment. I am so disappointed in my fellow American's. I cannot for the love of me understand how all American' did not grasp the importance of this ELECTION. Almost 50% of you didn't bother to vote... because you decided you didn't like EITHER candidate... you stuck your head in the sand and left it to others to decide. Cowards!
Many allowed their own personal single insignificant issue to determine their vote. It is obvious that personal self was put before COUNTRY in this election. You can tolerate being embarrassed and laughed at by the rest of the world. You can tolerate being controlled by the Russians. You can tolerate having your president stand before the world and demean and belittle anybody he so pleases, as long as you think he will solve your silly little individual issue.
You think Affordable Health Care is more important then the security of your nation. You are willing to trust your security in the hands of a man who has destroyed more businesses then he has EVER created. He has stiffed more people then you even know, yet choose to believe he is going to bring jobs back to America. Really. The man who has all of his factories in countries of cheap labour.
I hope you are all sleeping well, because I can assure you, the rest of the world is not. Well done.
P.S.- Just saw your follow up Phoenix... omg... all I can say is... OMG! All this is so obvious to the rest of the world! Seriously, you need to do something about your educational standards. They need to understand the Global world they live in it. They need to understand that the border is not the end of their DRIVEWAY! This just becomes more and more disturbing.
Stayed
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Phoenix,
Most of those theories aren't too far off base.
I read something interesting today about the Electoral College. The people who make up the Electoral C could refuse to vote for Trump in December, or in some cases could give their vote to Clinton. Which could give her the election.
Of course I'm dreaming here because It's extremely rare they would ever do that, but it is possible. :)
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I suppose all that voted for this DEMOCRATIC clown have their reasons, yet It boggles my mind! All of it! From the treatment I received from my coworkers at the polling place to the ones that scream until they blue they honor the constitution, yet prefer a womanizing, unqualified inexperienced candidate who just changed his party a few years ago ::)
I know my mom is scared. H was triggered back into Replay.
Maybe Trump being as old as he is, the oldest man ever to be elected, had something to do with it? Maybe senility? who knows?
Senile old people often complain right? Do they also instill FEAR into everyone? I admit I'm sort of scared too. Scared to have happen to me like what happened at the polling place, mistaken for something I'm not and blamed for something I didn't do.
Welp this post racial America is over, or maybe it just never was, as I always thought.
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This is a website for standing, not politics ;)
Jk, couldnt resist!
I know this was posted as a joke but I want to counter it anyway by mentioning how impressed I am by the very interesting and informative posts by Phoenix, Elegance, SongandDance, and 1Trouble. Much more helpful than the stuff that passes for journalism that's being reported by the mass media.
And thanks to UrsaMajor for the link to the article about why we're grieving. It put into words the reason why I and so many other people I know were stunned and in shock yesterday morning. My college students were almost totally unresponsive. I've never seen anything like it. It was like trying to teach the dead.
Donald Trump's vision of America is not one that I agree with, it's not one that I would have believed so many others would go along with, and it's not a vision of a country that I want to live in. As an older white Christian male I might appear to be someone who would appreciate and benefit from Donald Trump's vision but I don't want to live in a country where people are judged not because of who they are but because of the category they fit into. Just as I would prefer that people not assume because I am an older white Christian male I would support and approve of Donald Trump and his policies and behavior.
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Almost 50% of you didn't bother to vote... because you decided you didn't like EITHER candidate... you stuck your head in the sand and left it to others to decide. Cowards!
Hey...easy there now (I didn't take it personally). I am one of those that DIDN'T vote. Why-because I am not informed enough TO make a decision to vote. I just don't get into politics at all. My personal opinion is the system is BROKEN, and it has been for a very long time. I also feel that although the president does have power (especially "influence"...look at the stock market....it was up based upon what he SAID he was going to do....nothing has actually happened YET), but other than that, he has no real power to enact any real meaningful change ON HIS OWN. -EDIT- This is a double edged sword; if he could, we would be living in a dictatorship, if he can't then things generally don't get done because of political self interest, or governmental bureaucracy.
HAD I voted, it would have been for Trump. Not that I like the guy or his behavior (seems like an arrogant spoiled brat), but only BECAUSE he is not a career politician.
I don't trust ANY of them.
Speaking of conspiracy theories...my own personal one is the US's days are numbered anyway. Oh, it may not happen in my lifetime, or maybe even my kids' lifetimes, but EVENTUALLY, we will fall:
http://www.wrisley.com/cycle.htm
-T
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El, pleeeese don't put that man in my catagory. He ran as a REPUBLICAN, not a Democrat.
:o ;D
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Sorry Thunder, Trump just changed his party about three years ago.
There are idiots in all parties :P
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I know, El.
Funny thing is back then he supported and even gave money to Hillary's campaign. ::)
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Elegence, I am so sorry. I thought this great divide was done and dusted to. I was so proud of North America. Apparently, it was just hiding, waiting to be brought forward when there was a need to BLAME somebody.
Hugs dear... Stayed
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Just joining in...
I am in the 'comfortable' (or maybe uncomfortable) position of not being able to cast a vote anywhere - which, of course, does not mean I don't have an opinion.
As a British citizen out of the UK since I was 11 years old, I don't have enough knowledge of UK politics and economy to even think about voting. I have lived 44 years in Brazil, where voting is mandatory for Brazilian born or naturalized citizens up to the age of 65 (my elderly parents make a point of voting! :P). Since I have never naturalized I cannot vote here.
I agree that the US president is a very big deal for the whole world given its hegemony over it. In fact, I often think the whole world should have a say in who the next president of the US is.
I think you had a pretty bad deal and like non US citizens in democracies around the world, the US voting system is rather complex and seems (to us) non democratic.
Here in Brazil, people would love to not have to vote, our candidates are not much better either. :P
In recent years, we have managed to impeach two democratically elected presidents. In both cases, the people took to the streets to protest and demand that they step down. In both cases, the vice had to take over.
Would that be possible in America? But then, you would be landed with Mike Pence, right?
It is unconceivable to me that Trump could even be considered a candidate, let alone get elected (shaking my head here - I am going to get a severe crick in my neck soon). I am no fan of HRC either, at least she was a legit candidate.
Brazil is known for making fun of politics/politicians - it is a national sport, much like soccer/football :P We have just had a similar choice here in the city of Rio between two candidates who were not really a great choice either - so there is a meme going around which shows our Christ Redeemer statue hugging the statue of Liberty, saying "Come on now, we're in this together, it went wrong here too!"
I just hope, for all of us, that Donald Trump is sufficiently impacted with the enormity of the role and toes the line. Brazilians are worried at what his presidency might mean for Latin America. Brazil does a lot of business with America and has always been a good friend, sometimes to its disadvantage.
Just observations from afar.
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It is unconceivable to me that Trump could even be considered a candidate, let alone get elected (shaking my head here - I am going to get a severe crick in my neck soon). I am no fan of HRC either, at least she was a legit candidate.
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As I mentioned above, had I voted, it would have been for Trump exactly because he wasn't a politician, but I am in agreement with you here.
I think part of the reason he won is he is representative of this nation's priorities, which I think is very sad. What I mean is, people are more consumed by "The Kardashians", and other "Reality Celebs" that what is going on in their own lives.
I am surprised I haven't stumbled upon a news article where the headline read "Trump: Your HIRED!!!"
-T
I don't pretend to have the answers, but I view our two party system as "Black and White", and unfortunately NOTHING ever is. I also forgot who mentioned it, but government positions should have term limits, and should probably be serviced by random selection similar to "Jury Selection". I just think it should be a civil duty that any citizen could be called upon for, rather than a career opportunity. Maybe that woudn't work either, I don't know.
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Mitzpah,
I love America, it's beautiful and filled with wonderful people. I wouldn't want to live any place else, but out political system is broken.
Until we get the money out of our politics it will not change. Also we need to break up the power of a 2 party system.
I'm concerned about Trump, but not really afraid of him, he's an actor/businessman who I honestly don't think he really wanted this job. He'd actually have to work for a change. I'm more worried about there being no checks and balances in the Congress. The Republican's will have the control over everything. THAT scares me.
Not that there aren't some reasonable Republicans, there are but not enough to override the extreme right wing ones.
If Trump did anything too dangerous we could have him impeached.
Love the Redeemer and Lady Liberty together. Funny! ;D
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I like your calm and orderly comments Mitzpah. Soothing to be honest. The only thing I would disagree about is your opinion of HRC. She has been given an extremely bad reputation, quite unjustly in many people far more informed then myself. Sadly, the media tries to be real, and report the news but they are operating on RATINGS much the same as any other TV/Cable network.
That means, that if it attracts more attention to report that Hilary Rodham Clintons emails have been leaked and there is some pretty incriminating stuff in there, then so be it. They KNOW most people will never read the damn things. Being a bit of news junky and a closet Hilary Clinton fan, I actually took a look at those emails. Seriously, I was shocked at how little was in them. My personal opinion, this was a woman who had prepared her entire life to run for the highest office in he land and she was scrupulously careful about everything she did, wrote and said.
Even her taxes were laid out straightforward, not even taking a chance claiming something that would reduce her taxes on the off chance that she could be accused of tax evasion or some such thing. The list goes on. I think her team could have explained the emails and many of the accusations much better then they did. Still, her being the person she is, I think she felt her ACTIONS spoke for her.
This is quite a travesty to be honest. Hilary was the most qualified, honest, even tempered person for this job. Trump and his hatchet team, managed to portray her otherwise, the media in their NEED for ratings, helped. The rest is history.
I think we are watching the beginning of the end for the United States of America. A divided nation cannot survive. A nation unwilling to keep pace or work within the dynamics of its time, cannot survive. A nation that supports guns, violence, hypocrisy and divisiveness, cannot survive.
I will not be watching the Inauguration this time. Watching one of the classiest first families leaving Washington and being replaced by a Your Fired and his porn star first lady, will be more then I can stomach.
Stayed
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America has never been post racial. Many people are progressive, open and are utterly and completely appalled, and put our actions where we say our values are. There is still, however, a faction of people who--due to a lack of education or exposure--coupled with a distrust of government, and a frustration with the economy and jobs are looking for someone to blame and someone to "save" them. They believe the racist hype that "those people" took my job. No. The truth is that companies--including some of Trump's--choose to outsource and in doing so, also abuse people from other countries by not paying them a living wage because they can get away with it. Or they are automating to save money and eliminating jobs. Greed took those jobs not people who need to eat and feed their children just as everyone else does. This country was built and populated by immigrants. Unless you are Native American in the U.S., you are from an immigrant legacy.
This country has, unfortunately, also been a white male patriarchy for a long time. Many white men are fine sharing the pie with others and, in fact work tirelessly for equality. But there are those who have long been threatened by the change---the shift from all white and male faces in power. They have liked the position of unchallenged superiority and power. They know how women and people of color have been treated in this country and fear that what they have done to others will be done to them.
The election of Obama was a seismic shift. But even then, I was seeing shirts that read, "Put the white back into the whitehouse" and people consistently said racist remark such as, "Obama doesn't seem black. He's smart and well spoken." "He seems like one of us and dresses like one of us." It was overwhelmingly women and people of color who elected Obama. And for some people it was okay "this one time." But a black man followed by a woman as President? No way. That is too much. What if the white guys never get back into power? Of course we know that is nonsense given our political representatives are so skewed to the white male population. But there is fear....deep fear about a loss of the status quo and life as people know it. Change and difference---especially in some more rural areas--scares and intimidates. It's too much of an unknown. People feel out of their element--out of their comfort zone. And certain other people prey on this and use that fear just as Trump did to get elected.
I have to agree with Stayed about feigning ignorance or not voting. Those are choices. People can also choose to educate and inform themselves and exercise their priviledge to vote. We do not have a president in a vaccuum and we cannot elect one in a vaccuum. Yes, there are our personal issues to consider, but ultimately, it is about which person is best for our overall country and even our global friends and partners. We do not exist in a bubble. We have a responsibility to each other. We can't afford the luxury of not voting and not being informed. It is one of our most important and fundamental responsibilities/obligations as free people and citizens. And there has to be an understanding that it is a vote when people don't vote as it impacts the election either way. It may make people feel better to think this is not the case, but it is. It lets your fellow countrypeople and global community down. Period.
And if a person thinks a system is broken, be able to articulate exactly how and why and back that up with well researched fact. Then help fix it as there is surely room for improvement and I agree about term limits and such.
It's also untrue the president has no power. Yes, there are checks and balances and there should be, and our politicians work together (hopefully) but Presidents do have power, influence, impact and represent our country and agenda on the world stage. They also individually and personally meet with members of their own party and other parties to affect change, negotiate, and gain agreements for moving change forward. Saying the president has no real power is just another excuse for not exercising one's civic duty and becoming informed.
I also find the argument that people voted for Trump because he is not a career politician perplexing. In no other caree--let alone one this important--do we say, "I want someone to perform open heart surgery on me because she is not a career cardiac surgeon," or "I want a group of amateurs to rescue my family from a burning building because they are not career fire fighters, or I want my mail carrier to fly a jet with my family in it because she is not a career pilot. Geesh. There is nothing wrong with experienced experts in their field getting those jobs and if anyone thinks Trump has not greased a lot of palms and made a lot of promises, because he is not a "career politician," you are naive. Guilliani was one of Trump's biggest surrogates and now Trump is discussing him for his cabinet---quid pro quo. At least a career politician would have an idea what the hell he is doing. If we don't like it. Change it. But change doesn't come from not participating.
Phoenix
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You're right Phoenix, when I said I was concerned, that is where my concern lies...on the world stage, not at home.
Can he meet world leaders and represent us in a positive way, it remains to be seen.
Bernie Sanders, he did want to fix some of out broken system and you see where that got him.
There is just too much powerful, big money behind this. How do you fight them? I don't know.
Term limits may help. But other than that the American people would all need to stand up and say ENOUGH.
Maybe this will be a beginning. Maybe..
Or everyone will just go back totheir place in line and nothing will change.
Sorry T, I also agree about not voting for a "career politician."
Unfortunately we need politicians who understand how our government works. It's very different from running a company, but I'm sure you know that. :)
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I also find the argument that people voted for Trump because he is not a career politician perplexing. In no other caree--let alone one this important--do we say, "I want someone to perform open heart surgery on me because she is not a career cardiac surgeon," or "I want a group of amateurs to rescue my family from a burning building because they are not career fire fighters, or I want my mail carrier to fly a jet with my family in it because she is not a career pilot. Geesh. There is nothing wrong with experienced experts in their field getting those jobs and if anyone thinks Trump has not greased a lot of palms and made a lot of promises, because he is not a "career politician," you are naive. Guilliani was one of Trump's biggest surrogates and now Trump is discussing him for his cabinet---quid pro quo. At least a career politician would have an idea what the hell he is doing. If we don't like it. Change it. But change doesn't come from not participating.
Phoenix
You are correct, I wouldn't want a "non career pilot" flying my plane; but I feel *POLITICS* is different. Why? I am a pessimist I guess-although I do not know how many times it has happened in the past, the popular vote DOESN'T MATTER. Doesn't count. Yes it tells our "government" who "the people" want to lead this country, but in the end, it means a hill of beans.
The other problem I have is lobbyists. Yes, I have no knowledge of what *actually* happens in D.C., but I feel that *MOST* politicians (and people in general) can be bought. It all comes down to what their price is.
I am sure there are folks in political office that truly believe in their heart what they are doing for their country is in the BEST INTEREST of that country, but I believe it to be a very rare few. Also, just because a person is PASSIONATE about their beliefs, does not make them right.
Make no mistake, politics IS a business. And no one gets into business just for something to do. You go into business to MAKE MONEY.
I am not your normal guy. My personal stance: "I am a PERSONAL CONSERVATIVE who believes in LIBERAL PUBLIC POLICY."
I guess you could say I am almost a closet socialist. I look at countries like Denmark, Norway, and Sweden with envy. Oh, I know there is no such thing as utopia, but I believe they have done things right.
I don't trust our government to do anything right, period. I believe in socialized healthcare. I believe in socialized education. But our government, as it currently stands will NEVER get these programs right. As long as corporate greed exists, politicians can be bought, and there is a dollar to be made, I see no way of turning things around.
Things will continue on just as they always have: The rich will get richer, the poor will get poorer, eventually the middle class will be wiped out, and then the economy will collapse because there are no more consumers left to "consume" and no more "Credit" left to hand out due to the sheer indebtedness of the population.
Letting my *almost* conspiracy mind show here (I don't believe in the new world order, the 9/11 conspiracies, and other radical things), but from what little I know of history, there are two events the put the nail in this country's coffin as far as I am conerned:
1913-President Woodrow Wilson enacts the Federal Income Tax law.
1971-Richard Nixon removes the US from the Gold Standard.
Getting off topic-I am not a *political* guy, but I AM a NUMBERS guy. And our current economic model mathematically is unsustainable.
The most BORING, yet informative video you will see:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-QA2rkpBSY
-T
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America has never been post racial. Many people are progressive, open and are utterly and completely appalled, and put our actions where we say our values are. There is still, however, a faction of people who--due to a lack of education or exposure--coupled with a distrust of government, and a frustration with the economy and jobs are looking for someone to blame and someone to "save" them. They believe the racist hype that "those people" took my job. No. The truth is that companies--including some of Trump's--choose to outsource and in doing so, also abuse people from other countries by not paying them a living wage because they can get away with it. Or they are automating to save money and eliminating jobs. Greed took those jobs not people who need to eat and feed their children just as everyone else does. This country was built and populated by immigrants. Unless you are Native American in the U.S., you are from an immigrant legacy.
.....
I also find the argument that people voted for Trump because he is not a career politician perplexing. In no other career--let alone one this important--do we say, "I want someone to perform open heart surgery on me because she is not a career cardiac surgeon," or "I want a group of amateurs to rescue my family from a burning building because they are not career fire fighters, or I want my mail carrier to fly a jet with my family in it because she is not a career pilot.
Phoenix, hats off. Scapegoating, in times of economic trouble, has a dangerous legacy.
FWIW my brother in law became a politician, after 20 years as a doctor. Won a seat in parliament. Yes, he's seen the effects of poverty first-hand in his old job, and wants to fix the problem at source. But he's very conscious of being a rookie, and that this is a new job which requires knowledge and a skill set, for which there is a learning curve and to which his original skill set may not transfer. So he's learning how to be a politician, and I'm proud of him. I just can't imagine him showing up to say, "well, I've done a different job for 20 years, so now that I'm in politics, hand me the reins and get outta my way!"...
Being in public life and working for the good of your fellow man requires some effort, and some willingness to learn; there's a why and a how to the business of effective compromise and consensus building. To dismiss anyone who's put in the time and learned how to do so as 'a career politician' seems pretty facile. Terrified in TN, politics is not different from other jobs - as you say, people can be bought in any walk of life - but we need to trust that good people will be good, whatever job they happen to do at that moment. Then we need to vote for good people.
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I also feel that although the president does have power (especially "influence"...look at the stock market....it was up based upon what he SAID he was going to do....nothing has actually happened YET), but other than that, he has no real power to enact any real meaningful change ON HIS OWN.
T,
I'm not into politics either but there are a few things that I know about the presidency and one is that the president has a lot of power to enact meaningful change. That is, change that can affect all of us in our daily affairs. Here are a few of the things the president can do. This is what our country has handed over to Donald Trump and it scares the heck out of me.
1. Issue executive orders. "Executive Orders do not require Congressional approval to take effect but they have the same legal weight as laws passed by Congress. " Here are links to an article about executive orders and a subject directory of the executive orders issued by President Obama.
http://www.thisnation.com/question/040.html (http://www.thisnation.com/question/040.html)
https://www.archives.gov/federal-register/executive-orders/obama-subjects.html (https://www.archives.gov/federal-register/executive-orders/obama-subjects.html)
2. Choose and remove members of the president's cabinet. These are the people who direct some of the most powerful agencies in the world. In addition to selecting the agency directors, each agency has a large number of high level executives who are political appointees and serve at the pleasure of the president. Here's a list of the agencies represented in the president's cabinet. These agencies impact almost every aspect of most of our lives. Not only US citizens but people all over the world which is why Mitzpah makes a good point when she states that everyone in the world should have a say in the selection of the president.
http://www.ducksters.com/history/us_cabinet.php (http://www.ducksters.com/history/us_cabinet.php)
3. Commander-in-Chief of the United States Military. Every single person in the military serves under the direction of the president of the United States. The president is authorized to direct the military's response to any real or perceived external threat. The president can send troops off to battle for up to 60 days without Congressional approval. And, of course, the president can order the use of nuclear weapons at any time with no oversight. Some links regarding the president's role as commander-in-chief and the power we have given Donald Trump to initiate a nuclear war..
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/commander_in_chief_powers
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/06/2016-donald-trump-nuclear-weapons-missiles-nukes-button-launch-foreign-policy-213955
4. Veto bills lawfully passed by the Congress. In other words, reject the actions of the people's chosen representatives.
http://mindyourdecisions.com/blog/2016/10/04/how-important-is-the-u-s-presidents-veto-power-game-theory-tuesdays/ (http://mindyourdecisions.com/blog/2016/10/04/how-important-is-the-u-s-presidents-veto-power-game-theory-tuesdays/)
5. Nominate federal judges and justices. These are the people who interpret how our laws are applied. The Supreme Court justices even have the final authority to interpret how the US Constitution is to be applied. "Because federal judges and Supreme Court justices serve for life, a president's nomination decisions are in many ways his or her most important legacy. Many of these appointments will serve long after a president's term of office ends. Whether or not the results are a "combination of Justinian, Jesus Christ, and John Marshall," these choices can have an impact on generations to come." It's expected that during the next four years 4 new Supreme Court justices will be nominated. That's roughly half the members of the Supreme Court.
http://www.ushistory.org/gov/9d.asp (http://www.ushistory.org/gov/9d.asp)
http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/next-president-likely-appoint-4-supreme-court-justices (http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/next-president-likely-appoint-4-supreme-court-justices)
6. Nominate the members of the Federal Reserve Board. These people have a tremendous influence over the direction of not only the US economy but the world economy. A mere whisper regarding an impending FRB decision can cause stock markets around the world to strongly react. They directly control the cost of credit which impacts everything from the interest you'll pay on a housing loan to whether or not you'll be able to get a housing loan to whether businesses will be able to afford to borrow money to do business or to expand. Members of the FRB serve for 14 years and I almost forgot to mention them.
https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/about_12591.htm (https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/about_12591.htm)
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffreydorfman/2016/11/10/forget-the-supreme-court-lets-talk-president-trump-and-federal-reserve-board-appointments/#57f48ccd1637 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffreydorfman/2016/11/10/forget-the-supreme-court-lets-talk-president-trump-and-federal-reserve-board-appointments/#57f48ccd1637)
These are some of the reasons why the US president is considered by many to be the most powerful man in the world. It's probably also why many president's seem to age significantly during their term(s).
I hate to say this because it may make me sound like an elitist but it really bothers me to see people entering the polling place who I know are clueless about the issues when their vote carries the same weight as that of people like Phoenix and Thunder who carefully study the issues and vote with their consciences.
Your article about the demise of democracies does not have to come true. We can disrupt it by overcoming the apathy. I've read articles recently stating that the shock of Brexit and Trump's election seem to have caused many to begin to be more involved in the political process. I pray this is true and that it continues and accelerates.
"From bondage to spiritual faith;
from spiritual faith to great courage;
from courage to liberty;
from liberty to abundance;
from abundance to selfishness;
from selfishness to apathy;
from apathy to dependence;
from dependency back again into bondage."
The other problem I have is lobbyists. Yes, I have no knowledge of what *actually* happens in D.C., but I feel that *MOST* politicians (and people in general) can be bought. It all comes down to what their price is.
I won't argue with but I will say that I donate to Political Action Committees that advocate for the issues I'm interested in. You might also be surprised to hear that most politicians have an office staff who track and count communications from their constituency about the issues. A written letter will carry more weight than an email.
I can't believe I spent so much time writing this. I hope somebody reads it. :P
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I don't disagree with you on a number of points, TN, including aspects of countries like Denmark, Norway, and Sweden. I'm also not one to villify aspects of socialism. There is no perfect system and we can learn from many of them, as we can learn from each other.
Great point Osb:
To dismiss anyone who's put in the time and learned how to do so as 'a career politician' seems pretty facile. Politics is not different from other jobs - people can be bought in any walk of life - but we need to trust that good people will be good, whatever job they happen to do at that moment. Then we need to vote for good people.
And EXCELLENT information MyBrainIsBroken. Thank you for posting it!
Maybe, those of us who have navigated MLC and lived to tell about it, are ready for the next challenge---saving America and revising our political system. ;)
Phoenix
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I am just so upset my vote didn't count because I live in New York. Thanks to our electoral college system the popular vote didn't win. Instead, certain states get extra votes. THAT part is the biggest travesty. Clinton won the popular vote. WE voted her in. But not so. Ridiculous. The only positive thing is Trump is not a true conservative republican. He has some moderate to liberal views. Possibly this could help some of us. Also, we get to see Alec Baldwin portray Trump on Saturday Night Live. Can't wait for that!
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I read every single word MyBrain. Thank you for taking the time to do so.
I hope you decide to go this route Phoenix, your intelligence and attention to detail would be an attribute.
Stayed
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I read it Brain :)
When say 'the President has no real power' What I'm saying our local politicians have more power over our daily lives. The President works more internationally with other country heads than decides what day our garbage is picked up or when school starts or ends for our children.
Someone like Trump really only watches or participates on TV. He obviously has no clue of what he was just elected to do.
We are REALLY in trouble people!
ps Trump got his hair done like a week ago, looks to me like he knew he would win, while the rest of us went to the polls and actually voted. He had the same ridiculous style for as long as I remember. Could there be something funny going on here? Like a rigged election FOR Trump and against Hillary?
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Brain,
Real quick-I won't even attempt to debate you on any of your points, as I will be the FIRST to admit I am ignorant on many levels when it comes to politics, and EXACTLY what power the president actually has, but just a couple notes:
1) I was aware of executive orders. But again, this cannot be a permanent change as the incoming president can always reverse any executive orders made by the previous one.
2) As a former military member, yes the President is our "highest level" boss, and I am aware he can send troops into various places, but I thought he could NOT declare any sort of war without the approval of congress...
-T
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2) As a former military member, yes the President is our "highest level" boss, and I am aware he can send troops into various places, but I thought he could NOT declare any sort of war without the approval of congress...
Actually I knew that, for a max of 60 days..then it goes to congress and senate, but I don't think a Congress or Senate has ever NOT supported a sitting president when he sent his troops in.
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T, you're correct on both counts. Speculation is already under way regarding which of Obama's executive orders will be immediately rescinded by Trump. But an executive order issued early in Trump's administration will be in place for most of 4 years and could do a lot of damage. For example, a lot of children in our area receive meals at school and for some of them, that may be the only time they eat. It would be well within the president's authority to issue an order abolishing the school lunch program. Does that sound like something that might impact our daily lives?
Of course, Congress could pass a law re-establishing the school lunch program but we have a Republican Congress and even if they did pass such a law, the president can veto it.
Another example of how the president can directly affect our lives. The president has the right to appoint a new chair and co-chair for the Federal Reserve Board and will also be appointing several FRB members. He could choose to sway monetary policy, which is currently set by the FRB, by appointing people who are in favor of a tight money policy. The FRB could then raise interest rates, slowing the economy and causing large numbers of people to be laid off. Or he could do the opposite, appoint members who are in favor of opening up the floodgates, boosting the economy to the point where rampant inflation occurs, the price of everything goes up, and your dollar becomes worth less and less. Far-fetched? Maybe, but Trump has been openly critical of the FRB.
What else could happen by executive order? Perhaps an order mandating that Muslims be required to display a crescent somewhere on their clothing for national security reasons. Or maybe just create camps and send them all to live in those camps. While we're at it, he could order that the LGBTQ community be required to wear rainbow colored necklaces to protect our children from their influence. Of course, these things would create controversy but controversy doesn't seem to influence Trump.
It's true the president can't declare war. Only the Congress has that right. But he can send our troops off to fight for up to 60 days without Congressional approval. With the weapon systems we now have can you imagine how much damage could be done in 60 days?
The president can also influence foreign trade and Trump has advocated tariffs on foreign goods. Do you suppose it would affect people's daily lives if everything that we import from other countries suddenly experienced huge price increases? What do you think that would do to the world economy?
I know these are worst-case scenarios, but we now have a President-elect who follows his own path and has shown a low tolerance for people or ideas he doesn't approve of.
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Hey Brain,
I wasn't aware of the school lunch program, so I googled it, and States have the option of participating or not.
I am no Trump fan in the least, yet really the President is more for International use. I'm not saying everything, yet for the most part.
To me Trump seems more qualified in playing "I declare war" the card game than serving the American people.
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OR he could get the BILLIONS of dollars that corporations have hidden overseas to avoid taxes to bring the money back to the US to be used here and stimulate our economy.
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Wow MyBrain, that was a pretty good incentive for people to educate themselves and VOTE! Probably preaching to the choir though MyBrain. That being said, your comments, your clear succinct explanation of the control the president has, was not wasted, at least certainly not on me.
I have been focused mostly on the international consequences but can now see it will or at least could be quite consequential to all American's. I hope the DEPLORABLE ADORABLES enjoy it. How will Trump twist this to be somebody else's fault?
Nothing to be done about it now. Even if Trump dropped dead of a heart attack tomorrow, you would have the adorable deplorable Mike Pence. Better, I'm really not sure. I expect the first thing he will do is ban abortions, any sort of health coverage, probably even Medicare (is that possible), Republicans think that NOBODY should get a free right... all social services cancelled immediately.
Uggh. All you can do, is hope for the best.
Thanks again MyBrain, that was extremely informative.
Stayed
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OR he could get the BILLIONS of dollars that corporations have hidden overseas to avoid taxes to bring the money back to the US to be used here and stimulate our economy.
Including his own OP? Oh right, he doesn't pay any taxes so what does he care. Try and paint your conscience any way you want OP... this man is toxic and he is going to do NOTHING but turn your country back into a racist, hateful country. Anything that man will do, will firstly benefit him... secondly the rest of his wealthy elite society. He doesn't have a clue about hard working people because he has never done anything but take advantage of them... like he did this time.
You think he's so brilliant and compared to the fools he persuaded to support him, I guess he is right. Obviously, didn't take much!
Stayed
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You think he's so brilliant and compared to the fools he persuaded to support him, I guess he is right. Obviously, didn't take much!
Please dont make this personal, I understand that we dont agree about politics,
that does not change the fact that I know lots of Democrats and I respect their right
to have their own views, I still love my children who are democrats and I don't hold it against them.
Nor do they hold my political views against me.
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Never too old to learn something new OP :)
Personally I vote person, not party.
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Please dont make this personal
OP how can I as a woman not make it personal when you vote for someone who thinks it's OK to demean women? "Grab them by the kitty"? Seriously? And you wonder why your wife ran off? Is that OK speech in your household? It's OK to judge and demean women? If no, then why is it OK for a president? Do you even begin to grasp the meanings of the words coming out of Trump's mouth? I find it difficult to respect any man (or woman) who vote for a racist, misogynist bigot.
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And you wonder why your wife ran off?
Are you serious?
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1trouble, we feel that way because that is how the leave framed things: we do not want EU citiens here. I read the British press on a daily basis, I am well aware how the whole business went down and how Leave won. If anything, I read European press far less than British and American one.
The UK has and never lost its sovereignty, it has never lost its borders (it does not have Schengen). The whole we want our sovereignty and our borders back talk is just it, talk.
You may had not vote to keep out of a British Univeristy, but that is what is going to happen. And not just with me, with many. Same for business, many business are leaving the UK, planning to leave and those who were thinking of starting a business there no longer are.
Since Scotland wants to remain in the EU I am not certain how the whole thing is going to turn up.
I crossed England off my list after leave won, not before.
To my knowldege, the UK is, and always was, opened to the rest of the world on its own terms.
Cameron knew he was not going to get more than what the UK already had, which is a lot compared with many EU countries. Why would the UK be given even more special previleges?
At the moment in the area I live they cannot build enough homes, there is a big homeless problem,even though they are building on every time bit of land that comes available, it takes over two weeks to get an appointment at the doctors, it takes nearly an hour to drive somewhere which should only take 20 minutes, the trains aBrusselsre fit to bursting, the schools don't have places for the amount of pupils, everywhere is getting more and more crammed full, rents are going up and up, the price of properly too, its now impossible for most young people to ever be able to afford to buy their own home...............these are facts of life in the UK today.....
I know. I think people are aware. None of that has anything to do with the EU. Those are internaL issues of the UK. They may have more to do with a Tory goverment, or even previous not so good Labour ones. Other EU, or non EU or non European countries have similar problems. Those are for the governement of each country to solve.
EU bureaucrats will not be impacted by UK leaving, ordinary people, in the EU and in the UK will.
The funny thing is that the reerendum is not legally binding.
Trump is unbelievable towards women, but Bill Clinton behaviour is less than stellar. Has everyone forgot Monica Lewinsky? Plus the many incidents before and after Bill has been president? Hillary remained married to Bill even after Monica. Hillary is hardly someone I would see as a model for women. All I see in Hillary is a model for power.
I do know her history, past and track record (good and bad), all I still see is a model for power. And a very good one at it.
As for politician, none is a saint, none. Otherwise they would not be politicians. I thing being a saint and being a politician are mutually exclusive. But some are better than others.
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Am I serious? You bet. If you think it is OK to demean women, to degrade them, to call women pigs, to say "grab them by the kitty", then you have zero respect for women. Do you seriously think it is OK for ANY man to say the things Trump has said? I'd leave a man saying or thinking it is OK to say a thing like that in a second. And yes, I do believe (and hope) many other women would too. Let me ask you this: Are you seriously saying you think a woman should tolerate that kind of talk?
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Anjae, Bill Clinton had had affairs before he was voted President, but he had never publicly degraded women, called them pigs etc etc. Neither had he mocked disabled nor called Mexicans rapists etc etc.
We can't very well judge Hillary Clinton on what her husband did. She was on the ticket, not he. And many of us here have taken our husbands back after they've had longer and more involved physical and emotional affairs than the one Bill Clinton had with Monica L.
I am not a Hillary Clinton fan, but at least she's not insane and unfit for presidency, which many experts professed Trump to be.
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I'm a little disappointed. This site is not the place for political debate. And no where should it be OK to put anyone down for what they believe. To make the statement, and you wonder why your wife ran off is just cruel. Considering that you are involved in this MLC thingy and knowing how painful it is, I am just stunned that you could say something like that. And a little confused why RCR is not putting a stop to it.
Regardless of how you vote, or what you political views are, no one should be cruel. If we are, what separates us from the fools out there protesting and rioting? Bringing shame on us (American Citizens). I may not agree with what you think or feel but I would NEVER condemn you for it or say cruel things.
EVAS,
Let me tell you, I am a survivor of rape, I don't agree with any of what Trump has said or done. If anyone should be offended it should be me. I know OP, and no where in his being would he think for a moment that it's OK to demean women. Maybe you should read his posts to others (women) and see how he encourages them to stand up for themselves. And to grow stronger and respect themselves enough not to put up with being treated poorly by their spouses. Personally I think that you owe him an apology.
Although I respect your right to YOUR opinion, you do not have the right to assume you know how he feels or what he thinks. I certainly hope that you showed more kindness to your husband after what he did then you have to OP.
I voted for Hillary, thought it was the lesser of 2 evils. But, I almost didn't vote at all. I didn't want to feel responsible for putting any of those 2 in the White House. Trump has a big mouth, for sure. But Maybe you should watch 13 hours. It was a hard choice for me to make.
FH
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AW please guys, please let's not make this personal. Each and every one of us has a right to our opinion, even if it's not popular.
But we should never be afraid to voice it.
I was totally blindsided after the election, as most were, but this thread has helped me to think and listen to the different views points and how they feel it effects them, from men and women, from all over the world on what happened in their opinions.
I have gained a lot of insight from it.
When someone said the U.S impacts their economy I listened. I never knew how true that is...and I don't live in a bubble I just didn't know. I'm learning.
To attack anyone for their opinions or choices is just wrong.
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Evas that attack on OP was totally uncalled for and I'm appalled.
Personally I don't believe this thread belongs on this site. Everyone votes the way they vote. That is what makes America a representative democracy. We don't all have to agree and we certainly don't have to tear each other apart in the process. Where is the Agape love? Where are the unconditional s? Where is the respond don't react?
And to suggest that someone's spouse walked away because of their spouse's politics sounds more like MLC script than a political discussion.
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FH,
First off, you have NO IDEA what I am a survivor of.
Second, we are all entitled to our POVs. I find it incredible offensive to think it is OK to demean women the way Trump has done, and I don't find it strange at all that women do find it offensive. I think it is cruel to think it is OK to talk like that. It's abusive. We all tell LBS to leave a spouse who is abusive. It is emotional and verbal abuse. I'd leave and I'd encourage anyone else also to leave who was being abused.
This is OFF TOPIC, by the way.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/18-real-things-donald-trump-has-said-about-women_us_55d356a8e4b07addcb442023
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at least she's not insane and unfit for presidency, which many experts professed Trump to be.
Here is where we disagree,
and you seem to like to put words in my mouth which I did not say.
You seem to believe experts of what Trump said did, etc.
Clinton paid people $1500 to disrupt Trumps campaign speeches
then the press blamed him for the disruptions.
She lied many times. I am not a fan of Trump or Clinton's sexual exploits,
nor am I a fan of the press.
My personal opinion is the main street media is very biased in BOTH directions.
To tell me that my wife left me because of what you wrote is not very accurate
and really quite unfair.
I am not calling you names or saying anything to you about your husband cheating on you.
Why is that part of your argument?
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I know the difference between Bill and Donald.
Hillary was running for President of the US, her husband was going to be first gentleman and he was a former President. On this particular case, I think who she was married to maters.
We have. But none of us was married to the President, or Prime-Minister, of our country who has had sex while in office with an intern. To me that screams of abuse of power, powerful president - lower intern.
Around here that would had be seen as sexual arrasement at work, a crime. But, I am forgetting, Bill did not had sex with Monica. That was not sex.
But even if Bill didn't had the affairs and no Monica had happened, I would still see Hillary has an example for power, and a very good one.
This is an off-topic thread. HS allows for off-topic issues. It is well clear this is an off-topic thread.
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I understand this is an off topic subject, that's fine I get it. But what shouldn't happen is people being ATTACKED for their belief's. I have very strong belief's about certain subjects and don't agree with a lot of people. MY point is, they have a right to those belief's.
Evas,
You are absolutely right, I don't know what you've been through, and I would never presume to. I'm glad that your so passionate about what you believe. And for that reason alone I would never put you down for them. Just show others the same courtesy.
FH
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I agree this "off topic" is unusual but look at the traffic and passion it has turned out. People obviously have had a need right now to discuss this shocking turn of events. Why not here?
People are concerned, and should be, about more than MLC in their lives and this has been a good place to vent and discuss.
So many great and eye opening posts have been made.
I have sat here and read, in complete HORROR, attacks on my country that I love because some of the people who made bad decisions with who they voted for. Grouping all Americans into a box is so wrong. Most of us are NOT racists or bigoted. I choose to leave those attacks to the attacker.
In the words of Michelle Obama...when they go low, we go high. :)
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"Let us neither express, nor cherish, any harsh feeling towards any citizen who, by his vote, has differed with us. Let us at all times remember that all American citizens are brothers of a common country, and should dwell together in the bonds of fraternal feeling." - Abraham Lincoln
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So it is OK to "believe" that women are objects that can be called pigs? Demeaning women is discrimination it is not a believe this or believe that.
Being seen and heard as a human being (even though you are a woman) is a human right, not a belief system. We fight it when we see it in other countries, but somehow it is accepted in our own.
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No eva it is NOT ok to believe women are objects.
I don't believe anyone here believes that, at least no one I know.
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"Let us neither express, nor cherish, any harsh feeling towards any citizen who, by his vote, has differed with us. Let us at all times remember that all American citizens are brothers of a common country, and should dwell together in the bonds of fraternal feeling." - Abraham Lincoln
This seems very similar to what President Obama said yesterday.
I think if Obama can change what he says after 72 hours about Trump maybe we should try to follow his lead.
I have been very impressed by all the major players words since the conclusion of the election.
I am more concerned about the protests that are now occurring out on the streets and hope that these people remain peaceful.
As far as this thread is concerned - yes it seems very popular and I have no problem with it being here.
I would rather someone attacks me here with words than punch me in the face in real life.
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Thunder,
You are correct, no one here believes that.
OP, I agree I am more concerned with the protests happening. Too much anger.
FH
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Exactly, and if you're OK with a president who has stated over and over again that that is how he views women, then perhaps that's OK in your household? It is how you yourself perhaps view women? And that's what I mean. If that's the case, then I don't blame anyone for leaving. The one thing this election has done that's good - yet painful - is shed a light on what our true "beliefs" are. Do we believe that every human has a right to be seen or heard whether woman, man, black or white or whatever religion? Or do we believe it is OK to humiliate and abuse someone because they are in a weaker position/minority?
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I agree with you Thunder. I am a first generation American, and I love America with all its faults and deficiencies. I do not have here neither close friends not family, still America is much much friendlier to new comers than many countries. Some of the contributers on this treat had some choice words to say about a country of 320 mln very diverse and heterogenous population, which I neither agree with nor appreciate. Especially, considering that our tax payers still pay for these countrie's defense. I think that we ,who did not vote for or agreed with what Trump said, instead of attacking a vast majority of people who did, should start changing ourselves, and ask ourselves why the Democratic party has become a party of liberal elites, so distant from the real life America. The change that we seek should start from ourselves.
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Evas,
I think you fail to see that what you said to OP about his wife leaving could easily be as offensive and hurtful to HIM as what Trump has said seems to be equally hurtful to you...
I'm gonna get blasted for this, but hey..its the truth...that is how a lot of guys talk in private. Sad, but brutally honest. But you know what...some woman are equally as bad, if not WORSE.
Note, I didn't say I like the guy or approve (he is a pig), but I think what is more important here is do you agree or disagree with his policy. You can't control what HE says or does (except in this case through your vote), but you can control what you say and do.
I have to say, I am really disappointed. We all talk about becoming "healed and healthy" which part of is RESPONDING not REACTING.
THIS is why I don't get into politics. I figured this political thread *might* have a chance, being as we are all supposed to be grown, civil adults, but to be honest, am surprised it has lasted THIS long.
-T
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If you can look at "the Donald" and all he says about women (minorities etc) as projection. You may see this is how he feels about himself.
I think he has very low self esteem. He's gotten where he is doing God knows what. And the money he has made has created an "image". It hasn't bought him class that's for sure.
I'm not saying have any compassion or pity for him. He may have a lot of growing up to do. I do believe at their core people really don't change unless it's a benefit to them. And sometimes it rarely lasts.
IMHO he has a lot of damage to undo.
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TN,
What Trump has said isn't "hurtful" to "me". It is abusive to half the Earth's population. It's discrimination. You're underplaying it.
Many men have stood up after that tape was played ad nauseam to say that it is NOT normal locker room talk. So I really don't want to hear any excuses. And now I'm referring only to the "kitty-grabbing", because the other inflammatory remarks about women have been made in public by Trump during his campaign.
I stand by this: If you think it is OK to be demeaning to women, then I understand if women leave. If I had a daughter and a man talked about her or thought it was OK to talk about her like "a piece of ass", then I would advice my daughter to run as fast as she could. And if I heard of a woman leaving such a man, I'd understand. And let me just once again remind you, we dole out that advice to Left Behind Spouses here all the time: Do not take abuse. I'd always thought that included verbal abuse. Can you call Trump's remarks anything but verbal abuse?
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As for Trump's policy, it's all up to you.
Here's a collection of Day 1 in Trump's America.
https://twitter.com/i/moments/796417517157830656
And that's all I will say.
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Oh right Anjae, but it's OK for the next first lady to have been a PORN STAR! Wow the double standards in this room are amazing.
1500 bucks for somebody to disrupt his DISGUSTING rallies, accusations from the Trump Camp... yea right! Yet, it's ok for the Trump campaign to get information through RUSSIA. Even if the disruption story is true, tell me, which is worse OP... you an x military man... a republican candidate in bed with RUSSIA or a silly crowd disruptor, even if it did happen which somehow, I doubt.
Hilary Clinton is an amazing role model for girls. INCREDIBLE actually... not only has she had an amazing career, been first lady, senator, secretary of state...raised a wonderful daughter... adores her grandchildren...she showed people that marriage CAN SURVIVE ANYTHING... if you can't all see that, then what the firetruck are we all doing here? What more could any ONE PERSON do? Yet, because people were threatened by her, her wonderful intelligence, her ability to get things done, you rejected probably one of the best PRESIDENTS you could ever have had.
As for opinions, so what. If you can't take the heat... GET OUT OF THE KITCHEN... don't be stupid, this is controversial, very controversial.... all you women and men like OP, that I totally respected... I have lost that! Will it return, I don't know. Not sure how, because all I can see is hypocrisy. Abuse is abuse people. Donald Tump is a sick disgusting person. We heard him, in his own voice tell us what he thought of women and how being a celebrity he can do WHATEVER HE WANTS to them. How he would deliberately go into their dressing room when he knew they would be undressed or mostly undressed. If you think that's ok, then shame on you... all of you, MEN and WOMEN. That's wrong. That is taking advantage of his position. People lose jobs for so much less.
I think this is so sad. You people are just afraid! You men that voted for Trump are afraid that if Hilary became president then there goes ALL YOUR POWER.. you were no longer head of the household. Somehow you loose your rightful place in the universe, head of the house, the business, the world. Boo hoo! You women, even worse...you despise strong women. Somehow, strong, powerful women are not doing what they SHOULD be doing, although many like Hilary, actually raised her child, ran her home and held a powerful important job. You would rather be silly little SEX KITTENS that men DESIRE. Have a man tell you what you should do and how. You don't value yourselves. Rather then being proud of someone of our own sex achieving so much and possibly be the next president of the United States of America, a little over half the women that voted, voted for her. Instead, just a little less then half, voted for a man that speaks at a grade 3-6 level. How sad is that?
I bet many of you people that voted for Trump have a cute little T-shirt, that says, PROUD TO BE A DEPLORABLE ADORABLE...or is it, an ADORABLE DEPLORABLE... isn't that just the cutest thing ever? Aren't you all just so proud? Or how about a nice T-shirt that said, BEAT THE b!tc#... that was one of my favourites actually.
I'll tell you what, we'll respect your opinion when you show some RESPECT for yourselves. When you admit how deplorable those disgusting words out of that mans mouth were.
And Anjae, don't you dare tell me, that it is different for a running president. The French President's wife and mistress were at his funeral, so PLEASE... lets not make a WOMAN have a HIGHER standard then ANY FIRETRUCKING MAN!
Then to top it all off, if anybody thinks the world should not be concerned about your NEUCLEAR ARSENAL being in the hands of that man... then you have to be stupid. What is your excuse OP, you are actually an X-military man. You may be able to dispel his ridiculous comments as NO BIG DEAL, but the rest of us, who listen to what he says, have absolutely no reason to believe that he would even hesitate to push the button in retaliation. He is a HOT HEADED, STUPID person. The man is revengeful and if you do not think he will be taking his revenge from anybody and everybody who opposed him... you are crazier then he is.
Plus finally and probably the most important part of all, I would have though after all we have been through, we would be standing as one voice here. How any of us cannot see the INSANITY in that man's eyes, after all the research and scrutiny we have all done, on personality disorders, bi-polar, narcissism, depression, on and on and on, the fact that any of us would for one second believe that this man is of sound mind and body is UTTERLY incomprehensible. I can't believe that any of us would be comparing Hilary Clinton to the disgusting antics that we all WATCHED Donald Trump do, repeatedly throughout this entire election period, from the preliminaries right straight through to the final day.
Stayed
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Evas, I will gracefully bow out now. You missed my entire point. What you said could have been as easily hurtful to OP, but you are downplaying THAT.
I think OP was mature enough to just let it go, and not react. Kudos to him.
-T
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So we should now apologize to people who are verbally abusive?? You're right, I don't get your point.
Anyone who voted for Trump feel free to explain how it is OK to behave like he's behaved during his campaign not only to women but to the disabled to Hispanics etc. Your vote shows you are OK with it.
It is racism, sexism, hate, bigotry and a deep-seated fear of powerful women that made Trump president.
I love America but I am embarrassed right now. Trump is an embarrassment who makes us all look like idiots.
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Ugggg...I NEVER said it was OKAY what Trump said. I don't think anyone has. My point was it wasn't okay what you said to OP either, but you don't see it!
Because his political views didn't align with yours, you made a PERSONAL attack.
I see Stayed is equally as passionate about her beliefs, but NO WHERE in any of her posts have I seen any personal attacks.
-T
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The point is being missed, as it was missed (or summarily ignored or rationalized) by a lot of Americans, it seems. This is not about a difference of political party or opinion. This is about abuse and assault and perpetuating and dismissing the impact of rape culture and hatred. Many Republicans crossed party lines and, if Hillary was Republican and Trump was Democratic, I would have crossed lines on this election also.
And rather than be concerned about protests, though I too hope for peaceful ones, be concerned that the KKK is advertising a victory parade following Trump's election and all of this:
http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/10/us/post-election-hate-crimes-and-fears-trnd/index.html
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/day-1-in-trumps-america-highlights-racist-acts-violent-threats-w449787
http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/10/us/post-election-hate-crimes-and-fears-trnd/index.html
http://www.bet.com/news/national/2016/11/10/racist-acts-experienced-since-day-1-of-trump.html
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/304086-trump-child-rape-accuser-calls-off-news-conference-over-threats
Perhaps it will be more clear for some if coming from a man. Here is the report about Stan Van Gundy, head coach for the Detroit Pistons:
"Detroit Pistons head coach Stan Van Gundy blasted US President-elect Donald Trump on Wednesday in a nearly six-minute rant. Speaking to media before the Pistons' Wednesday night game against the Phoenix Suns, Van Gundy said he was stunned and "ashamed" of the US for electing Trump.
"I don’t think anybody can deny this guy is openly and brazenly racist and misogynistic and ethnic-centric," Van Gundy said. "We have just thrown a good part of our population under the bus, and I have problems with thinking that this is where we are as a country."
Van Gundy said the team was quiet on Wednesday and he believed it was because of a 32-point loss on Monday night. However, he added that center Aron Baynes told him it was because of the election results.
Van Gundy then delivered a ruthless rant, slamming Trump and the people who voted for him
"What we have done to minorities and women in this election is despicable. I’m having a hard time dealing with it. This isn’t your normal candidate. I don’t know even know if I have political differences with him. I don’t even know what are his politics. I don’t know, other than to build a wall and 'I hate people of color, and women are to be treated as sex objects and as servants to men.' I don’t know how you get past that. I don’t know how you walk into the booth and vote for that.
"I understand problems with the economy. I understand all the problems with Hillary Clinton, I do. But certain things in our country should disqualify you. And the fact that millions and millions of Americans don’t think that racism and sexism disqualifies you to be our leader, in our country ... . We presume to tell other countries about human-rights abuses and everything else. We better never do that again, when our leaders talk to China or anybody else about human-rights abuses."
Van Gundy added, "I have been ashamed of a lot of things that have happened in this country, but I can’t say I’ve ever been ashamed of our country until today."
Van Gundy then addressed the population that voted for him, challenging evangelical Christians on "what Bible [they] are reading."
"And then you read how he was embraced by conservative Christians. Evangelical Christians. I’m not a religious guy, but what the hell Bible are they reading? I’m dead serious. What Bible are you reading? And you’re supposed to be — it’s different. There are a lot of different groups we can be upset at. But you’re Christians. You’re supposed to be — at least you pride yourself on being the moral compass of our society. And you said, 'Yeah, the guy can talk about women like that and abuse them. I’m fine with that. He can disparage every ethnic group, and I’m fine with that.'"
Trump won Michigan, but Van Gundy said he was proud of Oakland County, Michigan, where he lives, for voting for Clinton. He said, "I’m going to walk into this arena tonight and realize that — especially in this state — most of these people voted for the guy. Like, (expletive), I don’t have any respect for that. I don’t."
Van Gundy is not the first, and he certainly will not be the last, professional sports figure to come out against Trump. "
And here is the Letter Aaron Sorkin wrote his wife and 15 year old daughter after Trump Was Elected President
"NOVEMBER 9, 2016
Sorkin Girls,
Well the world changed late last night in a way I couldn’t protect us from. That’s a terrible feeling for a father. I won’t sugarcoat it—this is truly horrible. It’s hardly the first time my candidate didn’t win (in fact it’s the sixth time) but it is the first time that a thoroughly incompetent pig with dangerous ideas, a serious psychiatric disorder, no knowledge of the world and no curiosity to learn has.
And it wasn’t just Donald Trump who won last night—it was his supporters too. The Klan won last night. White nationalists. Sexists, racists and buffoons. Angry white men who think rap music and Cinco de Mayo are a threat to their way of life (or are the reason for their way of life) have been given cause to celebrate. Men who have no right to call themselves that and who think that women who aspire to more than looking hot are shrill, ugly, and otherwise worthy of our scorn rather than our admiration struck a blow for misogynistic $h!teheads everywhere. Hate was given hope. Abject dumbness was glamorized as being “the fresh voice of an outsider” who’s going to “shake things up.” (Did anyone bother to ask how? Is he going to re-arrange the chairs in the Roosevelt Room?) For the next four years, the President of the United States, the same office held by Washington and Jefferson, Lincoln and Teddy Roosevelt, F.D.R., J.F.K. and Barack Obama, will be held by a man-boy who’ll spend his hours exacting Twitter vengeance against all who criticize him (and those numbers will be legion). We’ve embarrassed ourselves in front of our children and the world.
Our NATO allies are in a state of legitimate fear. And speaking of fear, Muslim-Americans, Mexican-Americans and African-Americans are shaking in their shoes. And we’d be right to note that many of Donald Trump’s fans are not fans of Jews. On the other hand, there is a party going on at ISIS headquarters.
So what do we do?
First of all, we remember that we’re not alone. A hundred million people in America and a billion more around the world feel exactly the same way we do.
Second, we get out of bed. The Trumpsters want to see people like us (Jewish, “coastal elites,” educated, socially progressive, Hollywood…) sobbing and wailing and talking about moving to Canada. I won’t give them that and neither will you. Here’s what we’ll do…
…we’ll firetrucking fight. (Roxy, there’s a time for this kind of language and it’s now.) We’re not powerless and we’re not voiceless. We don’t have majorities in the House or Senate but we do have representatives there. It’s also good to remember that most members of Trump’s own party feel exactly the same way about him that we do. We make sure that the people we sent to Washington—including Kamala Harris—take our strength with them and never take a day off.
We get involved. We do what we can to fight injustice anywhere we see it—whether it’s writing a check or rolling up our sleeves. Our family is fairly insulated from the effects of a Trump presidency so we fight for the families that aren’t. We fight for a woman to keep her right to choose. We fight for the First Amendment and we fight mostly for equality—not for a guarantee of equal outcomes but for equal opportunities. We stand up.
America didn’t stop being America last night and we didn’t stop being Americans and here’s the thing about Americans: Our darkest days have always—always—been followed by our finest hours.
Roxy, I know my predictions have let you down in the past, but personally, I don’t think this guy can make it a year without committing an impeachable crime. If he does manage to be a douche nozzle without breaking the law for four years, we’ll make it through those four years. And three years from now we’ll fight like hell for our candidate and we’ll win and they’ll lose and this time they’ll lose for good. Honey, it’ll be your first vote.
The battle isn’t over, it’s just begun. Grandpa fought in World War II and when he came home this country handed him an opportunity to make a great life for his family. I will not hand his granddaughter a country shaped by hateful and stupid men. Your tears last night woke me up, and I’ll never go to sleep on you again.
Love,
Dad"
Thank goodness for men who get it. Who get that what a person says and does is their policy and who they are. Men who don't rationalize, don't excuse, don't minimize or deflect attention back to themselves and away from the much bigger issues. I would love to have a collective voice, but one has to live what women live to genuinely comprehend this, or have a level of awareness--including about their own privilege--to understand it at least to the extent that men like Gundy, Sorkin, Obama and others do.
Rape crisis counselors are in overdrive at schools since Trump was elected, including my D's university, because it is triggering a wave of shock and PTSD for sexual harassment and assault victims to know that the President of their country is an abuser of women, and their fellow citizens cared so little that they dismissed or rationalized the facts, seen with their own eyes and heard with their own ears, and elected him anyway.
Phoenix
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It's not a "personal attack". I'm pointing out that Trump's ok with discrimination against women and everyone who votes for him is also since they seem to think it's ok to treat half the population that way. If you voted for Hitler you were ok with his views on minorities as well. It's bull to come and say "Oh, but I really liked the autobahns that Hitler built and all the jobs he created and he was a fresh puff of air" or whatever. Don't come and tell me you don't know. Don't come and tell me it's OK and it's just locker room banter.
I'm not attacking OP for his political views. I have Republican friends. None of them voted for Trump. Even the Bush family took a public stance against him as did many others. I don't think Trump represent Republican values.
It is you who refuse to understand. Is it hurtful to call out people for their misogynist views? I'm a woman, I'm saying that if it were me, I would leave a man who discriminate against women. And that's what I wrote. That I understand if a woman leaves because a man thinks it's ok to call her names simply because of her gender.
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I must say I have enjoyed the discussion on this thread.
1. It is fantastic to see people here taking an interest in something other than a depressive recounting of and singular focus on MLC. To me that is a reminder that the world keeps moving forward even though Mlc has struck our homes. Therefore, we must as well. And yes there are bigger things going on in the world than Mlc, more important things as well.
2. This thread has also shown clearly that we are a diverse yet intelligent group of individuals with our own thoughts and opinions. Some I agree with and some I don't.
3. The thread has also shown that there is an awful lot of work to be done still for getting messages to various groups of people. Each now might want to consider how to adjust the presentation of their message so others may be more receptive.
4. Part of that adjustment goes directly to a comment made by karmitsaghik concerning the Democratic party no longer being a party of the people to paraphrase. I too believe that. I'm a professor that holds 2 PhDs and a law degree. I am also the first generation of children born in this country in my family. My father holds a PhD in Mathematics and worked a second job at night first loading box cars by hand and then promoted as a machine operator in the factory. He is also a military veteran of 2 wars. I worked in factories full time from the time I was 17 until 30. As a professor it is easy to slip in to believing particular ideas and assuming others believe that way as well. Its the white ivory castle on the hill syndrome. Reality is not always so easy to swallow when it smacks us in the face. At that point a re evaluation of the message and its delivery is called for in my mind. This is an opportunity to do just that by many sides.
5. There are several important messages contained in these threads.
A. Americas decision have a huge impact on other countries, not just our own. Being a Super Power carries with it privileges and responsibilities to ourselves, our neighbors, and to the world.
B. Many Americans don't know or understand the functioning of our own government.
C. There is still a huge gap between men and women as to what is considered appropriate and respectful behavior. What are we modeling for our children and grandchildren?
D. Each person has a duty to participate in the governmental process one way or another. It is our duty as citizens not just of the US but all countries.
E. Withdrawing and ignoring, hiding our heads in the sand, being conflict avoidant is not productive. Sometimes it may work but other times you end up with a President you find truly offensive and in conflict with all you believe. If you've made no effort, you are simply making yourself a victim of other peoples whims and decisions. Those who put in effort. Don't complain if you chose not to make an effort. Do better next time.
F. Yes politics is often bloody and ugly. From the time of the First Continental Congress, in the US, the Founding Fathers screamed, fist fought, dueled, and wrote strongly worded articles and letters. Yes there were many personal attacks on each other as well. That was one of the things that Jefferson, Adams, Franklin and Hancock said was a great strength of the US. The ability to be able to fight for a position without risking censorship of the topic by an elite. That was the beginning of the right of Free Speech.
G. Patriotism is not just agreeing with anything and everything the government and its supporters say. It is not something to hide behind in an argument. It is being involved and giving back to your country. It is tough love as well, stating differences when you think your country is wrong, doing something below its high standards. Yesterday I was flaming mad about a post related to patriotism. Patriots can be both conservatives and liberals. Who is this person to perhaps suggest that I, the wife of a career Marine, legal advisor to a division of the military, translator and contact worker to the DOD, was not patriotic simply because we differed in political party? Then I screwed my head back on and actually read what was written and saw I was reacting not thinking. And I put down my poison key pad. She had a right to say or hint at what she said, even if I was reading in to it. That was my problem. Free speech is the right of all. Even if it hurts my feelings.
Lp
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Phoenix, I sadly agree.
To elect a man who is abusive to women to the highest office in the land is depressing.
What were people thinking???
Did they really think this narcasistic man was going to do what? ..make America better??? Safer?? Want other countries to respect our ideals???
I'm sure they are all laughing at us and more importantly fearing his ties to Russia who is no ones friend. Putin actually congratulated Trump. :o
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Came home from work, and saw on Rachel Maddow, things I heard in the campaign, yet I dismissed it. Russia (Putin) Government were the ones that leaked Clinton's email, hence scared the people into voting for Trump.
I can only assume they are sitting around laughing at how easy it was to interfere w/ US Democracy and have people actually put such a fool in office and have us at odds with each other.
They supposedly have spies close to Trump...still.
Oh yes, we are going to have times, like before when discrimination laws were never in place, like before most of us were even born.
Bottom line I am scared what can of worms this election has opened up. More than scared. Frightened, especially because my H is............well you know.
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Thunder,
I read today a note from Russian embassy, comfirming in fact that they were communicating with Trump campaign during the election. So there is yet another disturbing fact about Trump. I personally would have had trouble shaking hands with a man who voted for Trump. Because he is just an exemplification of ugly in all senses of the word. And I do not even like HC. I am also more concerned about racially motivated attacks and rhetoric than anti Trump protesters. I feel very worried about the future of America.
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Think this election has been triggering to many women on this particular board because we know quite starkly what it means to be marginalized, gaslighted, diminished... fwiw, I've felt hands tight around my throat; am also a rape survivor, from many years back; I know, like so many of you know, that cold feeling in the veins. Perhaps we are seeing in this election the same experiences writ large, in the conversations around women (and what you can do to them with impunity), and around the first female presidential candidate. We also know too well what narcissism sounds like, and what happens when it flies off the handle.
I will point out that many other countries have managed to elect female heads of state. Including, in some cases, countries Mr Trump would call 'less than free' because some women in those countries may choose to wear a scarf on their heads. From my outside view, the accolade 'leader of the free world' sits awkwardly on any country that has not yet supported its own women to seek its highest office. Someday that day will come.
At the same time, it's your country, your country's values, and your country's demographics. We can discuss it politely (how else, I'm Canadian ::) ) and agree to disagree.
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I'm just so sad! Sad that I actually know a man that I spent hours during my crisis and his, talking on face book chat. I cannot understand how he, the most gentle of men, could actually put a check mark next to that mans name. I could see him voting for a republican congressman, republican senate... republican whatever... but I cannot understand how my dear friend OP could put a check mark next to Donald Trumps name.
Sorry, I shouldn't make this so personal but of all the people I have met or know from this forum, OP is the very last person I would ever have expected to buy into a bunch of lies. Even if every word that man said was true, the fact that he treats WOMAN the way he does, should have been enough to make it impossible for the man I know, to actually VOTE FOR DONALD TRUMP.
I don't know of a single woman that has not been sexually violated at least once in their life. Now that does not mean actual penetration, but having a kiss with tongue thrust down your throat, against your will, is assault. Having someone put their hand up your skirt or on your breast, uninvited, unsolicited. That's assault.
In some ways the sexual assault is easier to take then the words. I remember trying to watch his rallies and he would come in there, and he would start talking, diarrhea of the mouth. He couldn't stay focused on his message because he was too busy responding to some of the WRONGS that he felt people were saying about him. He just couldn't stop defending himself and accusing others for saying these things about him. The lying media, the lies, lies, lies they were saying about him. Yet he got more free media time then any other candidate ever. He was calling they up, talking and talking. Then would accuse them of misinterpreting him. He would start people chanting... LOCK HER UP... in fact, towards the end of the voting around 2 am in the morning CNN went to his center and people were chanting LOCK HER UP... LOCK HER UP! And THEY WERE WINNING! What would they lock her up for, she has been found completely innocent of any crime. If it wasn't her, he was mocking somebody else. His voice would drone on and on... and the things he said, they were so hurtful, so crude... so rude... totally vulgar!
e
I wonder if your daughter has ever been sexually assaulted OP. Had a tongue thrust down her throat or worse. The chances are pretty likely, and you know the sad part, if you don't know and this has happened to her... then SHE DIDN'T TELL YOU! How sad is that? I never reported the guy that tried to rape me. Never. I just went home, threw up and NEVER gave any man unaccompanied a ride home, ever again. Yep, that was my solution. Sad eh?
I'm a newz junkie and I have not watched the news since the night of the election. The last news I heard was the Trump camp, chanting... LOCK HER UP...LOCK HER UP! I have resorted to reading my news, returned the old fashion way. Need my fix. I have read about the protests, I saw that Trump and Obama had lunch today and that Obama has graciously agreed to do everything he can to make the transition easier. I read this, I skimmed over the picture of that man sitting next to Obama. Obama looked so kindly, so dignified, so Barrack Obama.
What have you done America? What have you done?
Stayed
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New thread
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8399.0