[Onward]

A middle-old timer here. I’ve hesitated to post on this thread for several reasons.

The primary reason is that I have, more than once, been on the receiving end of arguments with a cadre of members that tipped far over the line between advice and personal attack. So I’m not particularly keen to invite that again.

The second reason is that, after 4 years on this board, my lived experience is that bullying behaviour is defended with the rationale that  “well, that’s so-and-so being so and so, and sure they are tough some times, but they also help, so that’s OK”.  Which basically excuses the behaviour because the end justifies the means.

But the end does not justify the means.

Particularly not on a forum where many people have already suffered relationship trauma, and have had to learn to discern signs of abuse, including emotional abuse.

Make no mistake, a personal attack is emotional abuse.

What’s a personal attack?
The Urban Dictionary has a pretty good definition, which identifies it as a logical fallacy that demeans your opponent instead of refuting their argument.

Personal attacks include challenges that question someone’s intelligence, values, integrity, motivations, decisions and so forth.

I think it is more than fair to say some of the conversation on the recently closed thread was replete with personal attacks.

I would also argue that using any means possible to get someone to do something in the way and timeline you think they should does not come from a spirit of helping others; it speaks to imposing one’s own will and choices on others.

It is stated over and over and over again on this forum that we cannot save our spouses: that we need to let them go.

It follows, then, that the same detachment to an outcome or timeline and letting go of the need to have LBS’ follow a particular path to healing would also apply.

There is tremendous room for many different views, and experiences and approaches on this forum.  But I for one continue to hope that behaviour that is unkind, judgemental, psychologically damaging or personally attacking and/or demeaning is seen for what it is without excuse or encouragement.

[Wonder no more]

Hi Stayed,  Yes I'm that Wonder lol.  Doing great.  Sold the boat in the islands and bought a place in Marathon in the Florida Keys.  Spend half the year there and the summer, in NJ.  H and I are great.  Took us a few years to feel truly feel reconciled (think I took longer than him ) The last couple of years have been amazing.  I am truly thankful to this site and all of you who read my story and helped me through the worst period of my life.  Can't believe it's been 8 years.  I never asked for this experience but I'm a better person for surviving it.  Our endings aren't all the same but we are all successful survivors.  I know I would have made a great life for myself even if my H did not return to me because of this site. There are so many people on this forum now, it is easy for an "old timer" to get lost.   Glad this thread was started even with a few bumps ... that's life.

[serenity]

I totally agree Onward

X

[Anjae]

When I first come here I only read the main site articles and the board for months. HB was around at the time. Her God talk was a little strange to me. When I become part of the board she once told me God or the Universe were the same thing. That made it easy for me, since for me it is the Universe. I talk to the Universe, but I am not religious.

I think being religious means one has/follows a religion. I know people who believe in God but do not follow any religion, therefore there are not religious. I was under the impression HB was a Catholic, but maybe she isn't.

We all know we cannot safe the MCLer. That is not obvious at BD, but for those who come here it soon becomes clear.

As for "stuck", I think "stuck" is part of many LBS journey. Regarding the time it takes a LBS for this that or those, that is personal. We're all different, we're all dealing with different situations.

Things have changed on HS because, as time goes by, we leaned that many MLC take a very long and now there are lots of midle-timers or old-timers in a new relationship or marriage. That was not the case when I arrived here.

As for standing or not standing. Everyone here is an adult. Aside from a grace period, during which I think standing allows the LBS roomto process what has happened, it is up to each of us to decide what we want. Stand, don't stand and have a new relationship/marriage, don't stand and don't want a relationship/marriage.

[xyzcf]

Might I ask what difference it makes if a person is religious or believes in God or doesn't?

I am sorry but the comments about my being a "religious zealot" , the "warning from Lisa "The following post may be offensive to lifetime standers, social and religious conservatives" and now discussion about Heartsblessing's beliefs in God or the Universe/ was she a Catholic? did she talk to God?....seem a bit strange to me.

RCR's articles talk about God in several places:

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/stand.html

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/self-focus_assurances_belief-and-believe_god-higher-power.

htmlhttps://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/self-focus_assurances_faith.html

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/self-focus_releasers_acceptance_accepting-sin.html

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/self-focus_releasers_acceptance_the-nature-of-suffering.html

I totally agree with Anjae that each one of us proceeds along our own journey at our own pace. This is most likely determined by many factors, the duration of our marriage, whether or not we experienced joy and happiness in our marriages, the type of MLCer, our own childhood and FOO issues, whether we receive therapy and if that therapist is a good fit or not, our cultural and religious beliefs (or not), our financial situation, amount of supports we have in our lives, our mental health prior to BD.....

We can learn from one another, we can share our experiences and we can do so with respect which is usually the case on HS.

Many HS members have a faith life, and many do not..it is a very individual thing. I have never seen anyone try and push religion on any other member but I do sense that talking about God makes others uncomfortable.

Just my thoughts this afternoon on a rather sensitive topic.

[Anjae]

I have never seen anyone try and push religion on any other member but I do sense that talking about God makes others uncomfortable.

To me it is just strange because it is something that pretty much only happens in HS when it comes to my life. Strange is different than uncomfortable.

The way many Americans always mention/talk about God is very peculiar to me. We don't do that. Public figures or politians over here do not talk about/mention God.

In private it is also an issue that does not get mentioned much.

[Unraveled]

I follow all of your stories on a daily basis but don't really post much.

It is distressing to see these topics get so out of hand and it happens on the "group" threads and the individual threads.  I've posted things in a genuine desire to help others and seen very defensive responses that make me not want to post, at least to those people.  For what it is worth I think the perspectives of Lisa, Stayed, and Wonder are very much needed on this site.  While rallying around someone who is hurting is a good thing, so is giving them another way to look at their pain or other options for dealing with their situations, or maybe, uncomfortably, bringing a spotlight to their own actions.  I realize so much for myself that all the reasons I had for doing certain things or not doing things, no matter how well-intentioned, were often just excuses made from fear.  I finally forced an active process that has brought me significantly more peace than doing nothing, but that is just me.  I wish I had listened to the folks who encouraged me to do that much earlier.

I've noticed there are a group of people, I think with the best of intentions, who swarm in when they feel someone is attacking, when quite often I think it is just someone legitimately trying to offer another perspective.  Personally, I think the solution to a lot of this stuff is to let the "victim" decide if it is an attack or not.  Let them respond, before others swarm to the rescue.  As a co-dependent who is trying to work on curing that, I guess I just tend to see that sort of response in others.

I prefer to think of this kind of place as a marketplace of ideas.  The antidote for speech you don't like in the marketplace of ideas is not silencing the speech, it's more speech.  Silence is censorship.  We let the Nazis march on Skokie not because we believe in their cause, but allowing them to do so makes it safe for all of us to express our ideas (and no, I'm not calling anyone here a Nazi).

While ad hominem attacks are never appropriate, how about being accepting of different perspectives or making studied, rather than personal, responses.

[turtleduck99]

I love HB and her approach.  I would say she is faithful not religious.   Religious suggests that she is ritualistic, faithful suggests that she trusts in a higher power.
Being faithful has kept me strong.
That being said, I have learned so very much from everyone.   What we are dealing with is foreign...... And sometimes another point of view sure helps to bring life back into focus.
My H is going off the deep end right now.  I never thought I would see him self destruct, but he's doing it.   So, I read threads and seek advice.   Thank you all. Because You are helping me to cope.

[1trouble]

Having been on this board a mere three years I don't call myself an old timer by any means

But as an observer of the way I have seen this discussion going (and sadly a few others over the past few years}, I want to comment

I would say that just in real life we gravitate toward people with whom we share similar views and those we feel comfortable with , BUT it doesn't mean those we don't feel comfortable with are wrong, they are just different and share different views...

AND just like in real life there are also those who are very divisive and like to stir up trouble ….

What I see on this thread is those dynamics playing out

BUT we should remember....We are all part of a unique and very painful club and its such a shame that we don't remember that.

NO-ONE can understand or judge anyone because we do not know or live anyone's lives but our own.
If someone is asking for support we need to give it.
If someone is asking for advice we need to give it BUT temper it and remember what a responsibility that is because the person maybe particularly vulnerable at the time of asking and also remember that we were once that vulnerable, even if we don't feel that now

IF someone is asking for 2x4's or even if you feel the need to give them and its what the LBS may need that we do it with sensitivity and responsibility and ensure the person is PREPARED they may be in boxing gloves not fur gloves..

And if someone is just posting and not asking for anything but just journaling then we have no right to go in with both feet and rip them apart because of some personal issues

Above all we must remember there are no points to prove here.....it should only be about supporting someone who is or has been through what any one of us may have gone through or are still going through
The outside world does not understand MLC , if we in turn don't understand or respect ,each other after all we have been through or going through then what hope do we have?
Temperance is a good word to bare in mind

[No expectations]

Just found this thread, and attaching.   I can't tell you how blessed I feel to have found this site.   I learned early on to let go, detach, GAL.  I don't know where I would be without all of you.

I agree that the differing views are needed.  I also think that some sensitivity helps the recipient to take the view in the Light of being helpful.  But that's my opinion.

I cherish all of you "old timers" still willing to come here and help.   Whether I embrace your view or not, is my choice.