[KeepItTogether]

Sach we are told to "let the A run its course." Which is really hard. My H's OW was his bailiff and knew that I was in the middle of chemo when they started up their A. If someone can be with a man who abandons a woman in the middle of chemo, I am fairly certain that any "reasoning" will be totally lost on her. On one of my sicker days, they actually went to a major league baseball game, while I was left home to care for our child. I was also working full time and taking care of household stuff still too. SO the weekends during chemo I pretty much needed to stay in bed and recuperate.  They are disgusting.

OP--That is exactly the kind of reminder I needed today. Thank you!

[sachat3]

I say the same. There was no reasoning with them. I mean I just wish I knew then what I know now. Because I wouldn’t have bothered messaging her. Or anything of the sort. But then it’s been over a year now of no reaction. And you can tell it’s killing her. She’s using any tactic she can to get a reaction from me. But she won’t get one!

[KeepItTogether]

I say the same. There was no reasoning with them. I mean I just wish I knew then what I know now. Because I wouldn’t have bothered messaging her. Or anything of the sort. But then it’s been over a year now of no reaction. And you can tell it’s killing her. She’s using any tactic she can to get a reaction from me. But she won’t get one!

You are awesome! Being ignored is the worst. And it allows us to work on that "not focusing on OW" thing.  LOL. (Which I suck at by the by)

[Evertrying]

I found out about the OW by looking through his cell phone bill. I had suspected something for a while because he was attached to his phone 24/7 and was acting like an ass.
She was a co-worker he had meet 2 yrs prior and they were "friends" at first. She is two weeks younger than my H, MARRIED for 25 yrs at the time and has two grown kids. Of course her marriage was awful and her H was terrible. She needed a knight in shinning armour,,,,

I have never met her. I have only seen pictures of her and she never made any attempt to contact me. I have thought about contacting her many times but decided she isn't worth it. She isn't worth anything as far as I am concerned. I am sure she is scared to death of me and what I could do to completely destroy her professional and personal life if I really cared enough to do so.

The affair lasted 1 year. It was hard to catch him because they only saw each other at work and he was never late coming home, never spent any money on her and never even spent the night with her. It was all about ego kibbles and the land of make believe. Even my H calls it "Fake unicorn land" now. How a woman can take only scraps of a married man's time will forever baffle my mind. It used to piss her off when 5:00 came around and he had to leave to come home to me. She used to cry and throw a tantrum, and he didn't care. He always left her alone crying.

Once I busted him, he did try to continue to maintain both relationships and lied to me for another 3 weeks until I caught him again. I have a close friend that works at the same company they worked at and she saw them together. When I found out, I made him call her in front of me. I had to laugh,,,,It sounded like two teenagers being told they weren't allowed to see each other anymore.

On his own, my H quit his job and got another one away from her and the toxic environment he created.  He told me a few months back that he knew the affair had run its course but he didn't know how to get himself out the situation. I think he almost kinda felt sorry for her. He has stayed NC and we are in year two since his affair, but I think his MLC started to appear in early 2013. It's been a hard long road but we are still trying to see if we can get through this together. He has never left our home and though he's struggling, he is trying. (well, the best he can at this stage in the crisis)

[sachat3]

Being perfectly honest, I can’t say it happened as an obvious “don’t focus on her” it was more of I noticed everything she posted was fake. So therefore I couldn’t take anything she posted seriously. Then I noticed she was posting a lot of quotes to try and get a rise out of me. The more I looked into things the more I realised just how irrelevant she was and still is. H himself admits this in not so many words but more his actions. Plus, I did start noticing when I tried to ruin things right after BD. She clung to him. Let him get away with murder. Yet when I sit back, relax and enjoy my life. I can see cracks appearing, so much so Ow is now copying my clothes, makeup, fake tan, nails etc etc. This from a woman that only started wearing makeup fake tan eyelashes acrylic nails in the past few months. So I’ll permanently have a box of popcorn in the house ready for the day it explodes.

[sachat3]

Everything I wish I hadn’t contacted her. I won’t regret it too much because I know it’s party of my story and destiny but I believe had I not contacted her. It would probably have run it’s course by now

[Sam I Am]

Here is what I know about the OW in my H's MLC.

-Long time family acquaintance.  Our kids went to school together and played sports together.  Always spoke when we ran into each other.
-She was very much aware I was in the picture.  She knew me personally.
-She has 3 kids.  Two different Daddy's.  Two exes.  H1 she had 2 kids with him.  While getting divorced, she threatened to move into a dive for a home.  H's parents didn't want the grandkids going there, so they financed a house for OW and her kids.  OW never paid them back for it.   Then one kids to boyfriend after H1.  This guy was a drug addict.  She cried poverty to my parents who felt sorry for her to get help to take care of her kids.  My parents lent her money for Christmas presents and gave them an engagement dinner.  They were never paid back.  My parents knew her from church.   Most recently was H2 from about 2012 or 13 to 2016.  He is now out of the picture.  Gone totally!  Nothing known about him at all.
-She sold the house recently that she got from H1 and moved to another state to live with her Dad.  H followed her 4.5 months later.  He stayed for 1.5 months and came home under the pretense that he couldn't find a job.  He told me he had offers but he didn't like any of them so he turned them down.  In my opinion, if he were in tru luv, he would have taken a job to make it work until something better came along.
-Ow moved back to our area two mos after H left her in another state.  She is living in the basement of her oldest child.  Asked H to help her find a place of her own. 
H lived with her on and off for two months when she returned before he moved in with his sister.
-It has been reported to me that OW likes to drink and frequented "dive" bars locally. 
-It has been reported that in these bars, she would Hook Up with someone, leave and come back later for more drinks and another hook up. (Really gross)
-My H told her he is not divorcing me and even if he was, he was never ever getting married again and she should get those thoughts out of her head. This was after they were involved for less than 6 mos.
-When my kids would call H, he would not answer the phone when he was with her.  If he did, they could hear her in the background wanted to know who he was talking to.  She was pretty rude is what I was told.
-H says she is a good person and he can take care of her.  He was giving her $100 a week to live at her place.  Said she needed the money and he could help her out with it.  Then would say that he knew where she hid the money and if he ever pi$$ed her off enough, he would take the money and leave. (Him giving her money makes it sound more like she is a prostitute!)
-H told me about her at BD but she is a huge secret.  They don't go out in our town and not too much in nearby towns.  They travel about 30 to 60 minutes outside the area.
-H has never taken her to any family functions.  H still invites me.
-H's parents don't know she exists.
-H used to be electronically at OW's beck and call.  If she called, he ran off to talk to her asap.  If she texted, he responded ASAP. (I used to keep a close eye on phone records)
-I know she blocked me from every seeing any of her social media sites.  I admit, I would have looked.  I know H is not there as he shut down all his stuff except for IG and Snap.  He posts little to IG.  He uses snap all the time. 
-My H told my daughter in law that OW's biggest fear was that he would leave her and return to me.
-Told me their relationship was not about sex, but when H was living with me I snooped because she was very protective of a bag.  Turned out that bag was filled of enjoyment toys....all for her.  None for H.  So sex was all about her.
-H now living with sister and having slumber parties with OW.
-H doesn't take calls from GS when he is with her either.  Sometimes he remembers to call later, sometimes he doesn't.
-The few people who do know of her are appalled that he has any interest in her.  They have not very nice descriptions of her.  She has a reputation around town in lowly places.  I never knew of it but I don't frequent those places either.

OW2 - EA only.  We all knew each other from school.  She popped up suddenly on FB one day and was friending a bunch of people.  From what I see on FB, I think she is in a MLC.  Frozen paralyzed face with no smile and dark eyes.  Can't smile to save her life.  Older pics show a beautiful smile. She lost a great deal of weight.   Her H is pursuing her on FB.  Constant LOVEY posts.  This ow lasted about 4 to 6 mos then was suddenly gone.  Once she disappeared, life with OW 1 seemed to pick up with more of a frenzy again.

OW3 just started.  Know absolutely nothing about her.  Which also means she knows nothing of me and nothing of OW1.  I would say it is possible that H is lying to her.  The high with OW1 may be wearing off so this would give him a "high" of cheating on ow1.  I read about an ex MLCer who did this.  When the OW1 no longer brought him fireworks, he needed to cheat on her to create a high. 

How do I feel about OW's?   At first really hurt.  Confused...bewildered.  How could they do that knowing I was still there.   Then I learned more about them.  I would say that OW1 is clearly desperate and an affair down.  OW2 and 3??  Don't know.

Now I feel sorry for all of them.  OW 2 and OW 3 don't know the full story I am sure and they live far enough away to not get rumors.  H has no FB so nothing leaking out there either.  I know there are lies....I hope they can figure it all out before they get too involvved.

As for OW1:  I don't get it.  H supposedly doesn't treat her well, and from overheard convos, she doesn't treat H well either.  I can not emphasize or understand the desperation that some of these people must feel to do the things they do.  OW1 is a huge secret.  No going out with family and friends and enjoying life.  Very limited place to go out in public as we are from a small town.  OW1 is content (?) to not attend any family functions?  Truth be told, I don't know how much she spends with her own kids and grandkids...maybe family is not important to her at all.  Right now it is not important to H much either.  H won't commit to her.   

There are so many red flags that I don't understand how someone would want to hold on to a relationship like that.

Right now I am content to let H have the OW1.  She isn't going to make him happy long term.  I feel confident because he has already left her behind at least twice and is not trying to make a commitment to her.  She is his MLC affair and it will eventually go to the wayside.  Besides, if she is as mean as they tell me she can be when she doesn't get her own way, H won't put up with that after he finishes.  She may have control now...but she won't always.

As for the others, only time will tell.  If OW 3 falls for H in his current state, then she deserves all the BS that will come with the relationship.  Hope she takes off her blinders.

I have never ever tried to contact any of them.  Never will either.  Would love to, but that will waste too much of my energy.

[Rollercoasterider]

Thanks SongAndDance, that letter is helpful.

Those of you who have been around and paid attention to my story likely know that there have been two alienators in my life—and not #1 and #2. The first alienator in my life became one when I was ~12 and his name was Daddy. They met in secret for a couple of years—she spent weekends with him, telling her husband she was traveling for work—leaving him with their two young children; they must have been 6 and 9 at the beginning. She left her husband when she got pregnant—and he’s had a vasectomy. My Dad and she immediately found a house together to rent and married a 6-8 months later when I was 14, my brother (half) was 6, and my step brother and step sister were 8 and 11.

I had known her for a few years since she’d been with us on weekends, but her kids had only met us once years before on a zoo trip—right before the affair began.

Was she an MLCer? Looking back, she fits the age, she had an affair and her weekends away show a clear disregard for her own family. I also saw her as a mother once we were all together and what I saw would never lead me to say she was not a loving and wonderful mother to her kids and until recently (apparently I am now the enemy, but she may be not all there—her mom had Alzheimer's and I worry about her) she was decent to me as well; my brother is another story, but admittedly there were issues going on there.
Her husband was an awesome guy! He was kind to all of us—he met us and he got the vacation place in the settlement, but we all got to go there for vacations. Really, he allowed his ex-wife and the man she had an affair with to vacation there! I have been wishing I could talk to him now and ask what he was thinking and feeling during those years.

But this thread is about the alienator, my Dad.
My mom was his second wife. He met his first wife on a Monday and married her on Wednesday of the following week. Clearly, that was well-thought out…pardon my sarcasm! Amazing it lasted 5 years! I think he was about 20 when they married. According to him, she cheated first and that is when it was over. Notice that she cheated FIRST, of course meaning he followed suit by cheating. Obviously, that was mature! I think he was still going through his divorce when he met my mom. They took a little longer to marry, but I think it was less than a year and maybe less than 6 months. They were married ~5years and my mom initiated the divorce.
My Dad then went through women—including type phases, he had a red-head phase. He was constantly teasing about how all women loved him—this was cute teasing, but also showed the truth of some of his narcissistic tendencies.
I tell you this to give you an idea of him outside of his being Daddy. But as a Dad he was wonderful and I said narcissistic tendencies rather than narcissism because I do not in any way believe he was NPD, he had too much empathy for that—empathy that could sometimes be a problem in how he soaked on other people’s emotions and wore his heart on his sleeve. He was hilarious—being the funny-man was how he dealt with the pain in his life and he knew that because that was how he explained it. He was dedicated as a weekend father—when I was little and he found work an hour away and moved to Seattle, but traveled every weekend back-and-forth to get me. When my brother came along later (that was a brief marriage to a truly frightening woman—she may have shot her 2nd husband, my Dad was #4 or #5) he had to make that trip in two directions, spending hours on the road every Friday and Sunday.

My Dad’s marriage as an alienator lasted until he died 3 years ago—29 years. I would never call it a good marriage, but he might not agree. They were just not pleasant to be around as a couple—a lot of bickering. Visiting them (as an adult) was usually a depressing experience because of the tension I often felt lingering in the air.

Was my Dad an Affair Down? Was he delusional—were they both?
Well, he certainly had a trail of bad relationships—many as a result of his poor decisions. He had narcissistic tendencies and compensated his low self-esteem with cockiness.
But I am biased and knew my Dad and to me, he was still not. But he was vulnerable in relationships. The thing he always wanted most was to marry, when single he was always searching for the one with such a strong desire to cause him to make a lot of mistakes. He once told me that he wanted my stepmom to return to her first husband if both second spouses died first. He also told me that he told her to go back to him—when she first left.  He said this to me maybe 20+ years later, so not something said to make him look better at the time, though perhaps said to make him look better to me as I was going through or just through Chuck’s MLC at the time.

Were they delusional?
She never seemed out of her mind or crazy with us. I mean, she had her moments and was never my favorite person, but other than with my brother, she was decent—though she tended toward being judgmental. I don’t think they were delusional in the sense I often think of alienators and MLCers being that way. They were deluded in the way so many are about marriage, divorce and kids. Seriously, they made my brother and me a part of their affair. This was nothing to me because I was just a kid. But what was especially deluded and ignorant was how they handled the end of her marriage and the public start of her relationship with my Dad with her children. I thought nothing of it then, I was just excited to have more kids in the family and one who was a girl only 3 years younger than me. But seriously people!!! Announce to your husband and children you want a divorce and that you will be moving in with some other guy—who you also say you were not dating prior to the break-up. Then follow through with the announcement and move in with him—my brother and I were there on weekends, though I did stay a few weeks that summer and babysit. It was wonderful to me because my step sister was a wonderful friend—thick as thieves might be a better description. She did not talk to me about anything being traumatized, having a hard time…though I know she was now. Perhaps it was even worse in the 80s when this happened—it was the height of the high divorce rate in America. People accepted divorce and that kids are resilient and you should be happy and with the one you love even if that is not the one to whom you are currently married and have children with… BLAH BLAH BLAH At least now we have peer-reviewed research proving the damage, back then people really thought 2nd marriages would be stronger because you would have learned from the first marriage. So they were delusional in the way our culture was delusional.

This is some of what I read in SongAndDance’s alienator’s letter: the belief that you should be with the one you (think you) love and happiness are first and kids will be fine… Delusional, sure. Is she a fruit basket? Maybe. Given only that letter, I know that others are much more looney, but then an alienator can become more fruity as time goes on and they and the MLCer become hooked to the hormones and the conflict and the idea that they have to continue because they destroyed everything to be together… I know that some alienator’s start off sounding nice and perhaps even logical, but they are wearing a mask which falls away or things just get worse and they fall down the rabbit hole. Maybe I am careful about thinking they are all mentally unstable lunatics right off the bat because of my Dad—from a relatively young age I figured out he as flawed (Grandpa was the one who hung the moon), but I adored him always.

[Anon]

RCR, thank you for sharing this with us.   It doesn’t sound like your dad ever found that elusive happiness.  Did he ever attempt to return to your mother?   

[Songanddance]

Thanks RCR - you make some interesting points. 

I should add that the bit of the letter I missed out was all about her not being able to have more children and intimate (I mean intimate) details of her condition.  I didn't think it was relevant then or now hence my not including it.
I do believe however that she was a dedicated mother in her own way although the other anecdote I have about her is this. Before she and H hooked up she clearly had been talking to him about her adopted daughter who had been fostered by her for the previous 2 years.  She was struggling and this young girl had many (understandable) issues. H suggested that she talk to me (remember this is before BD) and when I said " just love her through it - set rules and boundaries - be firm but kind and she will get it eventually"  her reply stunned me. She said " I wish we'd never adopted her"

Talk about reeling in my seat.

On reflection I now think that OW was so needy and insecure that she walked into fostering in heroine/rescuer mentality. This then perpetuated into adoption - and she probably convinced the authorities that she was a good person because she believed she was.  She had adopted her daughter two years before meeting H and in those 2 years her first marriage clearly disintegrated.  Her needs couldn't be met and so she then tried my H.   

This doesn't mean I can forget what she has done and forgiveness has been a battle but in letting it go I have been able to step back and see her for what and who she truly is and why I do not need to keep her in my life or my head.