[Acorn]

I’m surprised and sorry to hear that you’ve been blocked, Nas.  I have always considered your posts logical, respectful and helpful. 

I hope you can soon post your astute comments without further hinderance. 

[Nas]

Thank you, Acorn.  I feel the very same about your immensely helpful posts.

To be clear, I haven't been blocked or restricted by the moderators.  I've been blocked (using the option in user settings) by several fellow forum members so that I don't see their posts and they don't see mine.

[marvin4242]

There is a lot of heat (understandably) in this thread. But in my opinion there is also a lot of light. It is sometimes difficult to talk about topics when they are so charged.

But if we can take away the charge and maybe a few things said in the heat of the moment I am not so sure what is conflicted about what MBIB is trying to say. I am also in the camp that sees a lot of the MLC process as a psychological fracture, that it has roots in childhood, it is something that is papers over for a long time until it simply is not contained anymore. Or maybe some fundamental psychological coping structure never fully develops, and the weight of an adult life and conflicts and internal pain finally is too much and the entire house falls down.

Disassociation covers many things and is a spectrum, not two points. So it switching, it can be entire personalities or just mood states. I hear what MBIB is saying is that people in MLC change because of these coping mechanism which become rather acute. I agree. I also can hold the idea that it does not absolve them of the CONSEQUENCES of what they are doing. I am sure at some level they all know what they are doing, they are not helpless victims. But I am pretty sure that most of them are not making happy happy choices and twirling their mustaches, otherwise they would not have the shark eyes, the deep pain, the conflict. And the one real giveaway: healthy people making choices do not harm the people they love AND cut off their best support system.

To be clear to have empathy and understanding does not mean saying it is ok, or to take anyone of the hook as it were. We can choose any path we want as MLCers. I, like MBIB, find that holding empathy and understanding has made this much easier for me and has allowed me to heal and move on. Others may find anger helps them heal, unless it becomes toxic in itself. Because anger that remain for periods of time is not healthy for the person who holds it and probably means they are stuck in their pain in some way. This is NOT meant to be an accusation btw.

To me a big part of mental health is connection to reality. Disassociation and switching are indications that reality can not be tolerated, but as coping mechanisms they take away short term pain at the expense of much larger long term damage. The consequences of these are part of the reality that MLCers will have to face. Unfortunately as LBSes we also suffer these consequences although it was not something we instigated. Such is life, it is unfair, but we have to accept what has happened and figure out how to move on.

[Mrs.Smiling]

find that holding empathy and understanding has made this much easier for me and has allowed me to heal and move on.

Beautiful...As I 100% agree to this statement. Kindness and compassion. The question lies within, would you kick a man that's in pain? Why would you add to someone else's suffering, to their own pain, their own confusion and hell that they are battling on a daily basis. They (MLCer's) may know of what they are doing (choices, we all make choices), but within their choices, they are still battling deep inside, maybe a battle that nobody else is aware of, a hell that they have been burying down for years, I knew of exh's battles early into our marriage, I lived them, we spoke of them, I watched this wonderful loving and caring man crumble before me, numb to everything that surrounds him, one day at a time. It breaks my heart that he has been battling such trauma for so long (chaotic kid, FOO issues), however, i have also learned over my own healing and mirror work, I can not fix him. His "choices" were just that, choices. He needs to grow and learn, to fix him, but it is not the right of me to kick a man before me while he is in his own pain. As it is nobody's right to harm another human being simply because you do not like what they have done. Forgiveness inside for me, was to forgive what has happened, so i am better at being there for someone else whilst they go through their own.

[lawprofessor]

 Nas I'm sorry. 

People who block others do so most often I think when the poster hits a nerve and the blocker simply can't or won't deal with the issue.  Too scared.  In denial.  Conflict avoidant.  Not ready.  Years ago Brain blocked Stayed and I for example.  Water off a ducks back.  His choice. 

Acorn's questions:

If we are making excuses for MLCer’s choices, why? 

I can't claim that one

If we are blaming non-prosecutable things such as the fog/alien/monster, why?

Can't claim that one but likely had something to do with my prosecutor position and experience working with and researching those commonly called serial killers.

If we are blaming MLCer with intense resentment and anger, and no compassion and understanding (it is a monumental crisis), why? 

In the beginning I was angry. 

It was my go to response for hurt. 

It also had something to do with ego.  I thought by all objective standards I had my life under control.  I believed I had made it up the social ladder from poor to upper middle class at least.  We were a power couple, and I was arrogant and sure. 

It had something to do with embarrassment.  This baboon left me for a child!  She had no job, no education, no woman's figure for sex appeal.  Wtf!  How could I explain that to our colleagues and friends and family?  This little girl wore pig tails and a hello Kitty back pack daily!!!  Dear heaven was he always attracted to children??  Was he a child molester?  Could I have missed that with all my education in criminal deviance?  Was I stupid? 

Understanding?  Yes, I spent time studying MLC and had a decent understanding of it, theories, time here, time with Hearts Blessing.  The whole 9 yards.  So I treated him later with detached understanding.

Compassion?  I still don't treat him with great compassion.  More like general polite disinterest.  I'm sorry he is in crisis.  But I'm doing nothing to help or influence it other than not renewing the order of protection and not reporting his violation of the op when he began emailing me some years ago.  I rarely answer the emails (did tell him I was sorry to hear his sister passed away)  as it's not my interest.  His circus, his monkeys. I won't do anything to impede his progress but I also am not interested in aiding it either.  I'm done.  I did my time with J aiding.  That when I learned compassion and a fuller understanding of MLC in seeing from beginning to end.

But that still didn't loop me over to seeing this as something the MLCer doesn't get to own or looking for justification. 

At the beginning of the ending of J's crisis he tried various excuses on for size.  He tried, ow was crazy and drove me crazy....but I picked her.  Oops not a fit.  Then he tried, well all my stepdads were drunks and beat me....but I'm acting like them.  Oops not a fit.  Until one day he came to the conclusion, it was me (him).  Ah that fits.  "I'm done with excuses.  How do I fix this best I can?". And so it began. 

Lp

[Thunder]

Nas, you are not blocked from us.   

[Nas]

If we are making excuses for MLCer’s choices, why? 

In the beginning, I made excuses for his behavior, but those excuses were more for ME, to help me try to explain how it could be possible. 
He couldn't be hurting me by choice.  He must not be thinking clearly, something must be wrong.  There must be something I can do to help him.
At a certain point, I had realized he had many opportunities to stop doing what he was doing.  I am one of the rare LBS that actually got their spouse to go to therapy shortly after BD.  He went for 3 months.  He could have chosen to address his problems a different way.
I am fairly certain the therapist did not sit with him and blame me for all his problems.
At one point, he said to me, "You think about us.  I think about me.  I'm selfish."
He didn't come up with that gem all on his own.  It came from a therapy session.  It's highly likely the therapist talked to him, either in a roundabout way or straight out, about his behavior and how it would affect our him, me and our marriage. 
He did not veer from his path.  But he could have.

He did not have to do any of the things he did.  Getting a new phone number and not telling me while I was in chemotherapy...he did not have to do that.  He chose to do it. 
Early on, also while still in therapy, he wrote in an email that he was sorry for the money he spent and the way that he spent it (i.e. blowing every penny on business scams he previously would have smelled as rotten from a mile away).
Do I think he has no idea or understanding of the fact that he is living his life without paying me a dime while I'm destitute and cancer made things much worse?
He knows.
There are no excuses to be made for him. 
I have walked through hell and felt despair and depression I previously never could have imagined.  If I were doing to someone what he's done/doing to me, I would know it, whether I cared or not at the time.

If we are blaming non-prosecutable things such as the fog/alien/monster, why?

I'm not and never have.  Again, I've been in a fog of my own for two years.  My personal belief is that only a complete and total psychotic break would make someone "not entirely responsible" for doing awful things.  And a person in a psychotic break would not be able to function in day to day life, least of all be able to start and build a new career and carry on new relationships.

If we are blaming MLCer with intense resentment and anger, and no compassion and understanding (it is a monumental crisis), why? 

No intense resentment and anger from me.  Just as someone previously said, I believe it was Nah, stating facts about the terrible things someone has done does not equate to bitterness and anger.
Compassion to me is a tricky thing when a person is still engaging in the kind of behavior that shows they don't care about anyone but themselves.  Will I have compassion if my H decides to turn himself around and get help for whatever issues are plaguing him?  Of course.

Right now my compassion is largely being used up on myself.  It's not that I don't have compassion for him.  It's that I don't see any reason to be outwardly compassionate towards him now - meaning I don't need to reach out to let him know I have compassion.  I don't need to let him know anything. 
He's a mostly-vanisher and chose to not only leave, but chose to close off most avenues of communication.  It's not my responsibility to try to reopen those communication channels or to find a way to let him know that I will be here if he does attempt to reopen them.
It's his responsibility to get to a point where he would even exam why he closed those channels to begin with and then be healthy and mature enough to take whatever corrective steps he thinks he needs to take to reopen them if he so chooses.

[Nas]

Nas, you are not blocked from us.   

Thank you, Thunder.  I know that, and hope I made it clear that I was not saying the forum mods blocked or restricted me.

[Thunder]

Yes you did.   

[Bewildered survivor]

Ok after lots of debate & discussion - all I have to offer is something very simple compared to everything else said on here. I may be being too simplistic or black and white but this is how I see it.....factors of MLC such as fog, confusion, DID, even MLC itself is just an explanation not an excuse. It’s as simple as that as the issue is way to complex to be able to decide one way or another about justification...way tooo many variables involved so not sure why we are even trying to.

It would be like someone saying I slept with someone whilst I was intoxicated or high and don’t remember doing it so it’s not my fault. Although the explanation is believable and it’s true they don’t remember a lot of what they may have done but they are still responsible. We’ve had this debate before and I think I expressed my opinions about how much it takes to say someone doesn’t have mental capacity.

From what I’ve seen of my MLCer I support the idea of the fog, confusion and definitely the addiction/compulsion. Despite the horrendous monstering IF my H apologies and showed remorse this would help me feel compassion and forgive him. However at the moment I do not see myself being able to commit to a relationship with him as I just wouldn’t be able to get past it all and trust again.

I’ve also heard my H say “all my feelings are gone for you- I feel nothing”, “I know there’s something not right” & “ I know I’m going to regret ending this marriage”. I believe him.  But with these statements came a complete lack of insight as it was during BD & it was all my fault. I have no idea what he thinks now as we have pretty much no contact and he’s deep in the tunnel. Like 1T said I’m one of those with a MLCer with narcissistic tendencies.  I really don’t know if he knows what he’s doing but either way makes no difference to the outcome for me.