[lawprofessor]

Nah asked a question on the last thread and wanted a yes or no answer from Shocks Sis.  A poster replied:

I believe the intent of the question is to provide justification for LBSes to condemn MLCers for their actions.

I asked my J his thoughts.  "Justification?  No LBS needs a justification to condemn a MLCER for their words and actions.  What I did and said deserves and deserved to be condemned.  I was responsible for each and everything I did.  I made choices.  OK yes, I had a fog, and maybe don't remember some of my choices.  But that's not a justification.  Yes, I was manic but that's not a justification. I blew up my life, my family's lives, my career, my home, and hurt many people.  To try to justify that with my being in a fog is to still try to duck responsibility.  I'm not about to go back and wallow like a child trying to spread blame so I might have a bit less.  That would mean I learned nothing from all this and I certainly don't agree or even need someone to put lipstick on the pig I was.  Everyday I live with the consequences of my actions which I take full responsibility for.  Geez I didn't just fall off a bar stool and accidentally have sex with another woman.  I made choices.  I knew those choices would hurt others but I didn't stop long enough to care.  And the times I thought about it hurting others, well I have to say I found ways to justify my decision to do what I wanted.  I told myself and others ex was OK with it, the kids would be fine, kids are resilient, ex hated me, I got along better and had more in common with young girls, anything to justify.  But if it was right I wouldn't have felt the need to justify.  It would have been self-evident.  I didn't really start to get better until I gave up trying to justify and spread guilt and stood up and carried my own baggage. 

So an LBS needing to justify condemning the actions of a MLCER is ridiculous to me.  She already has every right to do that without any more Justification than what the MLCER did."

J is paying everyday for the consequences of his actions.  He is currently in the hospital having his second hip replacement at 54, a direct result of some things he did while in his MLC.  The children haven't called or come up to visit him.  But he's not angry or wallowing in self pity about that.  He accepts it as a consequence of his actions.  He's sad.  He's hurt.  But he's happy for any crumbs they toss his way.

I think what J said is just another version of what Shocks Sis is saying much more artfully.  Sis know that what you say has helped others and that your truth may not always be understood or liked by all, but it is your truth and that's something no one can take from you. 

Btw for those of you who don't know J was a very high energy MLCER over 9 + years.  To all you ladies and gentlemen with in home wallowers I don't know how you all manage and much long overdue respect for you all.  I used to think having a Wallower would be easier based on the theory of green grass but I'm sure if I'd have had a Wallower I'd have lost my mind, figuratively naturally, but I can't imagine anything more annoying to me than a Wallower. 

We all have our own truths.  How we manage to accept others right to have a different view is easier when ego is not involved and when we are mature enough to remember not all things are black and white.  Shades of gray can be lovely as well. 

Lp

[Whyus]

I didnt intend on writting on this Thread but These 2 Posts jump right out at me...

I am able to stand and treat my wife with compassion because I know that she didn't choose to go through this crisis, to have an affair. to move in with the om, and to divorce me. I know that my wife never has She has! and never would deliberately hurt me, and I know that my wife still loves me.

I asked my J his thoughts.  "Justification?  No LBS needs a justification to condemn a MLCER for their words and actions.  What I did and said deserves and deserved to be condemned.  I was responsible for each and everything I did.  I made choices.  OK yes, I had a fog, and maybe don't remember some of my choices.  But that's not a justification.  Yes, I was manic but that's not a justification. I blew up my life, my family's lives, my career, my home, and hurt many people.  To try to justify that with my being in a fog is to still try to duck responsibility.  I'm not about to go back and wallow like a child trying to spread blame so I might have a bit less.  That would mean I learned nothing from all this and I certainly don't agree or even need someone to put lipstick on the pig I was.  Everyday I live with the consequences of my actions which I take full responsibility for.  Geez I didn't just fall off a bar stool and accidentally have sex with another woman.  I made choices.  I knew those choices would hurt others but I didn't stop long enough to care.  And the times I thought about it hurting others, well I have to say I found ways to justify my decision to do what I wanted.  I told myself and others ex was OK with it, the kids would be fine, kids are resilient, ex hated me, I got along better and had more in common with young girls, anything to justify.  But if it was right I wouldn't have felt the need to justify.  It would have been self-evident.  I didn't really start to get better until I gave up trying to justify and spread guilt and stood up and carried my own baggage. 
This sounds more like it! No hiding behind the fog or blaming everything on the fog. Sure its there but they all made choices and knew exactly what they were doing and what Impact it would have on others.

I hope that if my XW ever Wakes up then she will throw up in her own mouth and then spit it onto OM whilst he sleeps. After that I wish her a peaceful life as she is the mother (or big sister) of my Kids afterall. Protecting our spouces and blaming everything on the fog is just not right! They know EXACTLY what they are doing.

[Granite]

After reading several posts, which to me, displayed an utter lack of compassion and an abundance of anger I was left feeling disheartened as ShockSis words have gifted me a clearer view of my Wife’s crisis.

By serendipity a few moments later I found myself watching the first episode of a tv show, “The Brain with Brian Eagleman”, that helped me understand not only why I viewed certain posts and concepts one way, while others viewed them differently, but how my Wife in crisis might view things so differently now than before.  It echos Lawprofessor’s post, but with a bit of science which made it more real for me.  The episode also includes information on the perception of time which I found fascinating.

For those that don’t agree with another persons thoughts, feelings or words and I am guilty of that too, I now understand it is not my place to dismiss them, nor devalue them.  It is their reality and to do demean it is insulting to both of us.

ShockSis,
   You hear people say, “It wasn’t easy, but if I helped one person it was worth it”.  Well I hope you now know it was worth it, because I can’t explain exactly how, but your words and presence helped me to fully understand what is going on with my Wife and how best to handle this time for myself and as well as her.

[Keep believing]

I have to disagree with the statement , addiction and mlc are totally different. I too am a recovering alcoholic.  Here is  my thought. Did i choose to drink?  yes to some point.
Did i know it was wrong ? yes. Was  i hurting others ? yes.
Did i justify ? yes. Did it make me feel good when i drank?  yes. Did i care what others said ? . no  Would i hang out with those people who judged me and said i had a problem ?  no  I ran from people who judged me an alcoholic.
Did i hit a bottom ? yes  emotionally.  I hated myself , my life.
Did i have regrets when recovering ? yes  Was I shameful  ? yes
When I think about the past (which I hate to think about) does it repulse me ? yes
What made me want to quit and change?   I was losing my h.

Very Very similar

Oh and by the way , if i didnt have the drink (addiction) I would get very angry.

[gman242]

I didnt intend on writting on this Thread but These 2 Posts jump right out at me...

I am able to stand and treat my wife with compassion because I know that she didn't choose to go through this crisis, to have an affair. to move in with the om, and to divorce me. I know that my wife never has She has! and never would deliberately hurt me, and I know that my wife still loves me.

I asked my J his thoughts.  "Justification?  No LBS needs a justification to condemn a MLCER for their words and actions.  What I did and said deserves and deserved to be condemned.  I was responsible for each and everything I did.  I made choices.  OK yes, I had a fog, and maybe don't remember some of my choices.  But that's not a justification.  Yes, I was manic but that's not a justification. I blew up my life, my family's lives, my career, my home, and hurt many people.  To try to justify that with my being in a fog is to still try to duck responsibility.  I'm not about to go back and wallow like a child trying to spread blame so I might have a bit less.  That would mean I learned nothing from all this and I certainly don't agree or even need someone to put lipstick on the pig I was.  Everyday I live with the consequences of my actions which I take full responsibility for.  Geez I didn't just fall off a bar stool and accidentally have sex with another woman.  I made choices.  I knew those choices would hurt others but I didn't stop long enough to care.  And the times I thought about it hurting others, well I have to say I found ways to justify my decision to do what I wanted.  I told myself and others ex was OK with it, the kids would be fine, kids are resilient, ex hated me, I got along better and had more in common with young girls, anything to justify.  But if it was right I wouldn't have felt the need to justify.  It would have been self-evident.  I didn't really start to get better until I gave up trying to justify and spread guilt and stood up and carried my own baggage. 
This sounds more like it! No hiding behind the fog or blaming everything on the fog. Sure its there but they all made choices and knew exactly what they were doing and what Impact it would have on others.

I hope that if my XW ever Wakes up then she will throw up in her own mouth and then spit it onto OM whilst he sleeps. After that I wish her a peaceful life as she is the mother (or big sister) of my Kids afterall. Protecting our spouces and blaming everything on the fog is just not right! They know EXACTLY what they are doing.

Whyus, I see both sides. Maybe if the day comes, agreeing with MBIB will be a path towards forgiveness and healing. For now, agreeing with you makes the most sense to me as she's (my ex) shown no sign of demonstrating remorse or culpability.

[Thunder]

If I may Shock and sis, I just wanted to say on the topic of choice.

It's very complicated.  I don't believe anyone in their right mind would choose to live in a crisis.  No sane person I know.

So no they had no choice but once they are in the crisis they do have a choice, their not mentally ill, but here's where it gets tricky, the problem is in their fogged up brain they are not making rational choices.  They are making crazy choices.

Unless they are deemed certifiable insane, they have to accept responsibility for their choices just like anyone else does for their choices, but in their fogged up brain it's hard to make rational choices when they don't think rational.

There are consequences for making crazy choices, I'm afraid.

I feel the same way MB does.  My H did not choose to go into a crisis, he would never have purposely hurt me, I believe he still loves me, and he most certainly would not divorce me...but the truth is he did.

You just can't give them a free pass.  They need to eventually see what they have done and have remorse enough to pay the price for what they did.  Show that remorse by trying to mend the relationship they destroyed.

Ok, back to you SS.   

[xyzcf]

Thunder:

You just can't give them a free pass.  They need to eventually see what they have done and have remorse enough to pay the price for what they did.  Show that remorse by trying to mend the relationship they destroyed.

And what if they just can't?

What if they were so messed up that they do not even remember what they did?

Do we deny ourselves the possibility of a possible lovely relationship because they cannot find the words to tell us they are sorry?

Perhaps their actions are more important than any words they might say.

Heartsblessing used to say that as long as there is love there is  hope.

The words "free pass" do not resonate well with me because I am one that really believes they have no clue what they have done to us.

[Thunder]

And what if they just can't?
What if they were so messed up that they do not even remember what they did?

Xyzcf, I truly don't know the answer to that.
That's why I say I think this is complicated.

I guess what is a " lovely relationship" with them, if they can't show remorse or can't remember the pain they have caused us.

To me personally, a lovely relationship means the presence of love in the relationship allows us to feel protected and safe as if the other person is a safe harbor for us.  With them, we feel a sense of security and stability.
At least that is how I see a lovely relationship.

[lawprofessor]

Thunder:

You just can't give them a free pass.  They need to eventually see what they have done and have remorse enough to pay the price for what they did.  Show that remorse by trying to mend the relationship they destroyed.

And what if they just can't?

Can't what? 

Can't say I'm sorry?  2 words.  I'm quite certain 2 words isn't much to want or even need to hear.

For some LBS's that would be enough. 
For others those 2 words wouldn't be near enough. It's individual to the person at this point.

Can't feel remorse?
Then there's a much bigger personality disorder.

Can't show remorse?
Again, either not done with the crisis or a much bigger personality disorder.

Can't face what they've done?  Then the likelihood is that:

1 they wouldn't come back in the first place
2 And even if they somehow decided to come back, they aren't strong enough to be a partner in a relationship which precludes the chance of a possibly lovely relationship I'd think.  It would be more of a parent child relationship not an adult reconciliation.

What if they were so messed up that they do not even remember what they did?

I'm yet to hear of a single MLCER who doesn't remember any of what they did who has reached the end stages since that's exactly what the end stages are about in part. Even assuming total amnesia one can still apologize for having wronged another when told of the wrong.

A simplistic example would be a person becomes drunk.  They vomit in a friend's car.  While the person may not remember vomiting, it would be common courtesy to apologize when he becomes aware of the incident and attempt to right the wrong.  Should the MLCer be held to common courtesy?  Many, perhaps most, would say yes.

Do we deny ourselves the possibility of a possible lovely relationship because they cannot find the words to tell us they are sorry?

Who said anything about denying ourselves anything? And who said we are only speaking of words?  But neither is it required that the LBS has to settle for less than what they want or deserve simply because the MLCER decides to return home.  If what's offered isn't enough than it just isn't and that's not a foundation for a lovely relationship.

-Inability to find the right words to tell us they are sorry is different story.  For some the possibility of a lovely relationship is nonexistent if the other person is not able to communicate remorse.  Notice I said communicate.  We've watched for months and years Barbiedoll's frustration, hurt, and anger over her husband's inability to communicate in a manner she needs. He's said he's sorry. But would she say hers is a lovely relationship?  I don't know that answer.

Different people have different needs and needs change with time and circumstance.  No one answer sets the minimum or the norm. 

But again this discussion isn't framed from the perspective of only what the MLCER can do or feels comfortable doing but what the lbs needs.  Our needs matter.  And more than that it's about where the level of accountability lies and how that impacts our actions and decisions.

Perhaps their actions are more important than any words they might say.

Words and communication are part of actions.  I don't see a lovely relationship being able to happen or even possible without the ability to communicate and the desire of both parties to communicate in a way both understand. 

Simplistically I could write this whole post in Russian or in Farsi or Tajiki Farsi.  But what would be the point if the target audience could not understand? 

Heartsblessing used to say that as long as there is love there is  hope.

Quite true.  She also said a MLCER who makes the decision to return home will be willing to go to great lengths to return home because he will have made that difficult decision. 

However, none of this discussion is about hope or love.  It's about what the LBS feels about responsibility and accountability in relation to the MLCER.  Holding views on accountability does not mean one can't gave hope or no longer loves the MLCER. 

Are you suggesting that accountability and responsibility mean a person doesn't love another?

I'd suggest it's just the opposite.  Parents hold their children accountable and responsible for the most part.  Friends hold friends accountable and responsible.  If my friend were to hurt me, I still love him or her but I'd want an apology and validation that my feelings matter.

The words "free pass" do not resonate well with me because I am one that really believes they have no clue what they have done to us.

Having no clue what they've done to us is different than having no clue what they did, actions and behaviours.  It is not that far a stretch for a MLCer in the end stages to begin with the assumption they hurt us and I'm yet to see a single genuine return of a MLCER who doesn't understand that he hurt his spouse in some way.  His understanding may lack specific details, or awareness of depth but he is well aware his actions caused pain. That's a root cause of guilt and depression they face in later stages.

[Treasur]

I agree with LP.
Some of our debate about MLCers responsibility may be bc (as Acorn's pink tutu themed recent posts talk about with a fine BS excuses checklist lol) we are hunting for a way to excuse the unacceptable bc we want to be able to accept them back in our lives if that happens. And much of what they do is horrific and unacceptable in a decent normal relationship.

Explain and excuse are different imho.
If someone hurts me and is unwilling or unable to show that they feel bad about it, or to acknowledge the damage, then put simply they will probably do it again bc my feelings don't matter enough to them. I don't know how to even have a decent friendship with someone like that let alone a 'lovely' relationship.
It isn't about love, it's about respect to me. And normal healthy adult behaviour.

I remember being completely gobsmacked by my h's lack of reaction when I got death threats. It just wasn't normal...but it was how he reacted. Do I know what he felt or why he reacted that way? No I don't. But if a man can spend two decades of his life with someone and show no concern at all about them being threatened or killed, can live with it well enough to be ok or can justify it? Then that is a very disordered kind of human being....not my job to excuse or justify it. And the fact that even years later he has never acknowledged it or the impact of it in any way? Says much the same. If he can live with it comfortably for the next few decades or deny the simple facts? Again, much the same. Not a healthy human. Can I understand why it would be horrific to look at and take responsibility for? Yes I can...tbh it took a lot of courage and grit for me to accept as real...but if my xh ever wants to be a healthy human again, he will need to strip off his own pink tutus as Acorn would say and accept the unacceotable reality too. And his actions and reactions bc no one else is responsible for that but him.

I suspect there may be a difference between the crisis and post crisis version. And ShockSis's posts show that her perspective is rather different from the MLC version who didn't care when her h called her at 2am needing help bc he had been beaten up and was injured. But she still did what she did then and her h felt what he felt then. My xh saying sorry won't change the fact that I slept in my clothes for months, actually barely slept at all, bc I was afraid of the house being set on fire in the night.

And it isn't about grovelling...just someone who can say I did this, it hurt people and that matters enough to me to accept that I did and try to make amends if I can. A healthy MLCer needs to get to that point or they just continue frankly to be a toxic sub-standard adult human. A healthy LBS needs to be able to do something similar...to accept the reality of things without excusing what is unacceptable to them or destructive either in others behaviour or their own.

At a basic level, I honestly believe that you can't heal what you don't let yourself feel...and you can't feel it honestly without owning the bits that belong to you. Which means taking the pink tutu off and looking at the unadorned realities. As true for the LBS as the MLCer.