Author Topic: Discussion An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!  (Read 3053 times)

Offline Treasur

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Discussion Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2019, 11:44:38 AM »
Lots of wise words here.
I think many of us in our bones carry a residue of shock and incomprehension that people can act this way often for years and show no real remorse. Not just our spouses, but actually just anyone. Probably bc most of us simply can't imagine doing what some of these folks do. Or not feeling horrified and remorseful if we did.
And I'm not sure that some of that shock ever entirely goes away so we do our best to find a way to accept and live with it. Hence the discussions about responsibility, blame and intention. And why ShockSis's posts might at least help us to understand a tiny bit.
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
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Offline Anjae

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2019, 11:51:03 AM »
It's not how bad the mlcer feels, it's how much they want to right their wrongs in whatever way they can. At least that is how I see it.

This.

When a person owns their wrong, and tries to make amends, sometimes the responses won't be positive.  That is also part of taking responsibility, imo. Owning that the hurt caused may not be forgiven and that any amends made may not be enough for everyone.

And this.

People get to be upset when someone lies, cheats or otherwise harms them.

They do. And they have such right.


I had a MLC. Mild and short compared with many, if not most of our MLCers. I did not destroyed a marriage or cheated on my spouse. I did not deal with BD well and MLC come from BD.

My crisis in no way compares to Mr J's one. He is one of the worst MLCers I have ever heard of, be it on HS or real life. LP's husband was another pretty bad one and, sadly, a few more here have that type of MLCer.

I don't see the problem with asigning blame. Like OffRoad said "Blame:responsibility for a fault or wrong.. or as a verb: assign responsibility for a fault or wrong."

Do you want to know what, for a very long time, was my biggest regret? That my MLC made me react with emotions rather than with logic = I didn't divorce Mr J as soon as OW1 was made public. That mistake of mine cost me dearly in every way. But the mistake is mine, not Mr J's, not anyone else's.

We need to have in mind that just like each LBS is different, so is each MLCer. I, Ready2, OffRoad's friend, my single real life friend who had a MLC, my wallower cousin and all those MLCers who never destroyed a marriage and/or had an alienator do not have the same issues to deal with that those who did it. Each one of the ones who didn't do those things and each one of those who did them is different. So is their LBS in existing. Each situation is also different.


It’s a brave person who’s an ex MLCer that comes here to post and try and help and answer the many questions that we, the LBS’ have

Indeed, but may I suggest that HS members who did not had a MLC may also want to try to learn something from HS members who had a MLC? Several of us have been here for years. A few have made their threads open to questions and reported many details of their own MLC.

It is not like we have never had a former MLCer, HS member or not, on HS.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline Mrs.Smiling

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2019, 12:09:37 PM »
I would also like to say, I had my transition at 38. It lasted 5 years. I never speak of it due to it being mild in comparison to my exh. Exh's are unfortunately being a chaotic kid, abused, neglected and then triggered by his dads early passing and fell deeper when the closest person to him my sister passed at an early age as well...
Just love one another... be the change.
Listen with an open heart..we are all here for one reason or another when it comes to dealing with MLC.
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Offline GoodbyeAndGoodLuck

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #23 on: July 04, 2019, 12:39:05 PM »
They know EXACTLY what they are doing.

I'm sorry about stirring things up but I think this is the attitude the bothers me. It's not about blame or responsibility. It's about intent. I haven't heard of anyone who has gone through this crisis who has tried to deny responsibility for their actions. Maybe during the crisis, but not after. But I also haven't heard from anyone who has gone through this crisis who later claimed that they wanted to or that they were able to control what happened or that they were happy that they did the things they did.

This statement about knowing EXACTLY what they did bothers me for two reasons.

1. Sometimes it simply isn't true. Sometimes a part of a fractured personality will do something that the other parts don't know about.

2. Sometimes, even though it may be true, that doesn't mean that it was possible for the person to do anything other than what they did. Like Gman wrote, it's like watching yourself do things but not being able to change what is happening.

This is why it's called the fog. Things sometimes happen that you're not even aware of and things sometimes happen that you're aware of but unable to do differently. Stating that they know EXACTLY what they're doing implies, to me anyway, that they could do something else. If that were true then they wouldn't be going through a crisis and this wouldn't be the correct site for discussing their behavior. You would be better off some place like the Chump Lady's site.

I'd still like to hear about some of the positive things that came from Sis's crisis.

Offline Anjae

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2019, 12:54:29 PM »
I would also like to say, I had my transition at 38. It lasted 5 years. I never speak of it due to it being mild in comparison to my exh.

Thank you for saying it, Mrs Smiling. I thing a few of us don't talk much of our MLC or bumpy MLC because we see it as mild compared to our MLCer's one. Maybe we should talk more about it, so that all types and flavours of MLC/bumpy MLT are represented.


And the attitude that bothers me is thinking MLCers do not know what they are doing. Former MLCers say they knew what they were doing. Should we not believe them, including those that are HS members?

How come someone does not know they are having an affair, that it is wrong and hurtful? Mr J said as much to OW1. He knew it was wrong, he knew he was in the wrong and that it was going to hurt me.

RCR has it clear in the articles, it didn't just happen, slot A did not got inserted into slow B just because, two people had to got together for it. RCR uses the slot thing and other things I am using a short version of her article.

Sometimes, and for some MLCers, it may not be true, but that is sometimes. Not always, and certainly not for all MLCers.

It is not possible to end an affair? Especially before it gets physical or rigth after it gets physical? Look, I had my own MLC. I was single, Mr J had left. I could had have a tons of men, it was easy, I was always going out and about.  I didn't. I said not to several. It is possible, even if one is having a MLC.

Brain, you are being unkind to your fellow LBS, including to those of us who had a MLC. I dare say LBS who had a MLC know how it is. You cannot speak for all MLCers. You cannot speak for all LBS. You cannot want all LBS to agree with you and only having your view to be valid. 

Also, your MLCer is not like mine. She is not like the MLCers of several of us. You can speak for yourself and your MLCer, not for all our MLCers or for how a fellow LBS should, or should not feel.

---

RCR article I mentioned above: https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/standing-actions_dealing-with-infidelity_excuses.html

"
Excuses
Is your MLCer making excuses for his infidelity? Are you buying them? Some excuses are meant as lies, some as justifications and some as dismissals. He may or may not have insight into the reasons for his behavior and how it has brought you pain. Until he gains insight, he is not ready to begin the rebirth and repair phase of his midlife journey. Accept the process and learn to laugh--his excuses may be so lame they are funny.

It just happened.
It just happened? How does sex just happen? You tripped on her and just happened to fall in? For Tab A to insert into Slot B, both A and B need to be exposed. Sneezes happen, farts happen, $h!te happens; try again.

I didn't plan it.
You didn't plan it, okay; what exactly did you fail to plan? The first sexual encounter? I think we can rule that out since we've already established that exposure was necessary, but let's move on. Was the second sexual encounter unplanned? Did it also just happen? You mean after tripping into someone's Slot B you didn't learn to take precautions? How do you not plan sex? Where did you meet? Stairways provide space for a fall. But clandestine sexual encounters are more likely to occur at a motel or the house of one of the partners. So how did you get a motel room if it wasn't planned? How did you get to her house or how did she get to ours if it wasn't planned? In the beginning you may not have intended for the relationship to become sexual, but there came a point where it crossed the threshold and that was a choice.


I was drinking.
So what. That has to be one of the stupidest answers to infidelity. Drinking is a choice. The action of drinking alcohol preceded the consequences of becoming drunk and stupid.

I wasn't happy.
Then get counseling; personal unhappiness does not justify adultery. Find help so we can work through predictable hills and valleys in our relationship. Marital dissatisfaction did not cause you to cheat. Infidelity is its own cause.

We were just friends.
Were. And what are you now? Friends with benefits? You allowed your friendship to cross the line; that was your fault and your choice. You are not her friend and she is not your friend; true friends wouldn't treat each other as you have. She has attempted to destroy our marriage, risked your health and your financial stability and you have done the same to her. If that's how you define friendship, how do you define enemies?

It didn't mean anything.
It was just a fling.
It was extramarital sex, adultery, infidelity, cheating. So it meant nothing; you used someone's body to satisfy your loins. She was just a discardable sperm receptacle? If you mistreat one woman, you mistreat all women. Using one woman in such a manner means you can do it to me too.

I didn't mean to hurt you.
So. What does that mean? Does it mean I'm sorry? Then say that. You did hurt. You hurt me, the alienator, our friends and family and our children. But worst of all, you hurt yourself. The thought of hurting me is clearly not a deterrent, so find something that is. How about doing what is appropriate and taking care of your problems rather than avoiding them and making excuses.

I was attracted to her.
So if you see a pretty woman, you must mount her? Down Rover. I find that guy down the street attractive, my colleague 2 desks down has six pack abs and brains to match and the coffee shop guy is cute and flirtatious--I bet I could seduce him. But I haven't and I won't. Finding someone attractive in nature, physically or intellectually does not justify infidelity. There will always be someone other than me who you will find hot; there will be many people you will find hot. That's normal; using it as a reason to break your marriage vows is not.

You were attracted to her, but having an adulterous relationship is not an appropriate reaction to attraction. Now and in the future, what are you going to do when you are attracted to someone else? What are you going to do to avoid reacting inappropriately?
I can't control who I fall in-love with.
Really? Then how is it that you have only fallen in-love with people of one gender? I mean, if you can't control it, odds are that half the people you fall for would male and half would be female. Oh, and you seem to have a type. You only fall in-love with people of your race who fall between a specific age and weight range. Have you fallen in-love with any octogenarians lately? Why is that?

You wouldn't let me grow.
An erection does not count as personal growth.
These excuses lack responsibility. It's called cheating, an affair and adultery and it is always a choice. Many admit to their sins, but still diminish their responsibility with inexcusable excuses. The excuses are not meant as untruths, many MLCers do not understand the roots of how it happened; they do not know how their actions lead to their behavior. Some believe these excuses are indicative that the person is hiding something. That may be true. But they are also convenient answers to toss out when pressured.

An affair requires conscious planning and premeditation, it builds from small, seemingly innocent encounters, to encounters of greater intimacy. People are conscious of present actions, but are often unconscious of the relationship between past, present and future actions. They may not recognize how lunches lead to dinners and how open discussions lead to confiding personal problems. The roots of an affair may be innocent, thus studied alone, the innocent encounters seem meaningless.

This is not meant as a criticism of the well-intending MLCer seeking to reconcile in counseling. But such a person still uses these lame excuses. Learn how this happened. Believing and intending to be faithful are not enough; prevention requires knowledge of the risks and dangers; it requires looking back at behaviors and learning what actions and emotions enabled an affair to take place. A person who is unable to follow responsibility beyond it just happened or I didn't plan it is capable and at risk of not planning it and having it just happen again."
« Last Edit: July 04, 2019, 01:17:52 PM by Anjae »
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Online nah

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #25 on: July 04, 2019, 01:19:46 PM »
Sooo...

I haven't heard of anyone who has gone through this crisis who has tried to deny responsibility for their actions.

But...

Things sometimes happen that you're not even aware of and things sometimes happen that you're aware of but unable to do differently. Stating that they know EXACTLY what they're doing implies, to me anyway, that they could do something else.

So you haven’t heard of a (recovered) MLCer deny responsibility but here’s a long list of why they’re not responsible?

I don’t understand what’s the big deal of saying, “I was in pain and I made some F’d up choices”

I don’t think it’s far fetched to say I had a MLC of my own when he left.

I was suicidal, I used alcohol, sex, drugs to dull the pain, I had lapses of memory, etc etc., I don’t even want to get into my FOO issues, the list is long and exhausting, and, yes, as many of you remember, I hurt some people. One wanted to talk about it, one didn’t. I let them choose and agreed... it was my own selfish choices that caused the pain. I could baby cry about the reasons, but their pain is due to my choices. And guess what?  If they started to list the reasons why they felt I wasn’t accountable, I would lose any respect I had left for them. I want a man in my life, not a doormat.



« Last Edit: July 04, 2019, 01:21:04 PM by nah »
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Offline Songanddance

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #26 on: July 04, 2019, 01:32:52 PM »
The posts ABOVE have been split off from shockandawe sis recovered MLC thread as the debate should now continue on it's own thread...

Shockandawe's thread should stick to her and her Sis's story, questions and answers.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2019, 01:34:19 PM by Songanddance »
BD march 2013
Stay at home MLCer
OW for 3.5 years - finishing Autumn 2016
Reconnection started 2017 through 2018.
2019 is the year of Decisions!

Offline GoodbyeAndGoodLuck

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #27 on: July 04, 2019, 01:36:20 PM »
Nah, did you read what I wrote? I wrote that it was about intent, not responsibility, yet you're back to the whole responsibility issue.

I remember you writing about your behavior after BD. Your actions were deliberate. You knew what you were doing, you knew your actions would hurt other people, and you deliberately chose to do them anyway. In fact, I recall you writing that you were hoping that hurting your husband would cause him to wake up. Did you even once do something that you didn't want to do but couldn't stop yourself from doing? I wouldn't say what you went through was an MLC. I would say that you were in pain and made some F'ed up choices.

Offline lawprofessorTopic starter

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #28 on: July 04, 2019, 01:39:29 PM »
I am quite surprised to see "I" started a new thread?  Oh well perhaps I'm wasn't aware of acting and certainly had no intention of doing so. 🤔🙄
if people won’t listen to you, there’s no point in talking to people. If they won’t listen, you’re just banging your head against a wall.

Sadly Ive used up all the time I had allotted to spend banging my head on the wall

Offline Songanddance

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #29 on: July 04, 2019, 01:44:35 PM »
I split the discussion from Shocksis to a new one. A couple of mods felt that the discussion merited a separate thread and not take up space on Shocksis's thread.

I split and merged it but my opening post ended up at the end!!  Still can't fathom some of the mechanics of this board.

So no you didn't start it officially but your post was the first one to be split off and so it claimed you as the thread owner!!

Sorry for confusion  ::) ::) ::)
BD march 2013
Stay at home MLCer
OW for 3.5 years - finishing Autumn 2016
Reconnection started 2017 through 2018.
2019 is the year of Decisions!

 

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