Author Topic: Discussion An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!  (Read 3052 times)

Offline Nerissa

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Discussion Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2019, 06:35:35 AM »
Such interesting posts.  I spent so very long, twisting myself up ,  making excuses for my H.  He has recently apologised in tears and seems in a mess and for probably the first time I haven’t tried to ‘help’. 

Although it’s taken time, once the grief subsided, my real work was to see what my own beliefs and conditioning  were are that allowed me to live with and want someone who can treat me this way and does not want to be with me.  This is  huge. Underneath the wish for a whole
Family and history and economic constraints there is a gap in my psyche that has been willing to be treated with disrespect and contempt and to accept it.  I can’t blame my parents as although supportive of my wish to forgive the affair, when his behaviour continued they were horrified although they held their counsel.

Now I actually believe the crisis situation is more complicated than simply falling out of love, but whatever, the facts are, at the time he was prepared to behave in a disordered way towards me and damage his daughters along with me.  And that damage was apparent.   As others have pointed out, he was, and unless he changes quite a bit, still is incapable of a reciprocal, emotionally mature  adult relationship with me, and quite possibly with anyone.  His earning capacity  or outward  success mask that, but it’s an emotional truth.

 I was part of that relationship and wanted to stay in it.  .  My T described it simply by saying it was symbiotic - that we both looked after each other in ways that we felt we needed to care/be cared for,  but not in a properly mature, evolved way.  To have even a friendship worthy of the name, both parties have to rid themselves of that symbiosis, identify the gaps in our development that need plugging, and grow up emotionally.

If one person does evolve and the other doesn’t, there can’t be an equal relationship.  Mine had been parent/child for some time - me the emotional parent and he the providing parent.  We were a good team, but in reality we needed to develop the undeveloped parts of ourselves instead of relying on the other to do that bit for us.  Coming back is neither here nor there in the light of this reality.


« Last Edit: July 04, 2019, 06:49:13 AM by Nerissa »

Offline xyzcf

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2019, 06:40:59 AM »
From Bbhelp's thread https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=10463.msg731458#msg731458

Quote
It will be unfair, then it will be unfair, followed by being unfair...and finally it will end up being unfair.  If you are keeping score...expecting a Mea Culpa worthy of a Cheesy Lifetime Movie...then think again.  It is thankless and...did I mention unfair?  There are so many that seem to expect this huge act of contrition...the taking ownership of what they did that is a signal of worthiness.  What I Found...was that words never told me anything.  Actions did.  My wife didn't throw herself at the mercy of the BB Court.  She has still never had her OMG...Here is all I did wrong & why.  I found that in time that wasn't what I needed. 

This is from Bbhelp's recent thread. I am not the only one that feels that we MUST expect them to apologize and say they are "sorry" otherwise we cannot have a "lovely" relationship with them.

I did say in my post "Perhaps their actions are more important than any words they might say."

LP, I don't need a lecture from you. Taking each of my comments and expressing why you think I am wrong is not necessary. I have as much knowledge as anyone else here about  MLC, and each of our situations are vastly different.

I also come from a Christian belief, trying to live my life as Christ has asked, to love one another, to love one's enemies and to forgive.

Writing one's opinion is fine, disagreeing with another member's opinion because you think they are wrong and you know better isn't.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2019, 06:44:16 AM by xyzcf »
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

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Offline lawprofessorTopic starter

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2019, 08:24:52 AM »
XYZCF, you make it impossible to have a discussion by personalizing and reacting rather than reading what's written.  I am not lecturing you and absolutely no where did I say you were wrong.  Once again you reacted to a post instead of reading the words actually there and then got defensive.  But this time I'm not participating in a big thread war with you where you turn around and claim the mantle of victimhood. 

I clearly said the issue of accountability depends on the LBS individually and where they are at at the time.  That this can change when the LBS is in a different place obviously.

XYZCF as I've discussed with you before I see great value in our contrasting positions because it gives people different perspectives to consider where they fall on the continuem.  I also told you that in my view is hope people take a bit from each of us when finding their personal sweet spot.  That view clearly suggests I find value in your level of knowledge but you fail to see that.

No place did I say I know better.  That's your incorrect interpretation, reacting instead of reading and seeing it's just another perspective.

Yes, BB said he got no mea culpa.  Just as I said it depends on the lbs and what they need at the time.  Bb was or is fine with no verbal mea culpa.  For others it's different as I wrote several times and that's just as valid a position. And that doesn't mean bb would say his lovely wife is not responsible for her actions in the manner we were discussing.

My J gave a huge mea culpa.  It's what was needed for him and for his loved ones to heal.  He was willing to do whatever necessary to help them heal.  His choice, his personality, his step to making amends.

As well related to BB's post, no where did I say actions were not important.  I said communication is a part action and some people need/want both parts.  That reflects personal choice, personality, and where they are at the time.  That's just as valid a need/want as is your not needing those things.  It's part of an exercise in growth to be able to express ones needs.

Loving one another and forgiveness under Christian tenets does not preclude ownership of one's wrongs.  That's part of the Catholics practice of confession.  Aside from that, I don't care a bit as to ones religious affiliation or nonreligious affiliation but it would be inaccurate to suggest forgiveness is alone a Christian tenet.  Living in the Middle East and Egypt and Russia and worshiping in those places gave me a clear view that the Muslim faith as well preaches forgiveness for example as does the Jewish faith and all 3 faiths value ownership and making amends.  As I'm sure other faiths do that I'm less familiar with

As to your last comment, that's a perfect example of lecturing.  You are judging my motives in responding to your comments.  And judging those motives incorrectly.  If Ive violated a forum rule Old Pilot and or RCR know how to contact me. 

Now I think it's best if we simply agree to disagree if we can't discuss thoughts without becoming defensive and reactionary.

Lp




if people won’t listen to you, there’s no point in talking to people. If they won’t listen, you’re just banging your head against a wall.

Sadly Ive used up all the time I had allotted to spend banging my head on the wall

Offline GoodbyeAndGoodLuck

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2019, 09:25:18 AM »
There's one thing that never seems to change on this forum and I, personally, am sick of it.

Hi Shock Sis - thank you for the wealth of information you have been providing from your experience.

Whenever someone posts on this forum who self-identifies as a person who has been through a crisis, those threads are always very popular, loaded with questions from LBses who are so grateful for an insight into the MLC mind. And those insights always seem to reveal, as Sis has, someone who was lost and confused and felt compelled to do the things they did and later find it difficult to comprehend why they did those things.

Yet, whenever an interesting thread starts about MLC it quickly seems to turn into this:

I hope that if my XW ever Wakes up then she will throw up in her own mouth and then spit it onto OM whilst he sleeps. After that I wish her a peaceful life as she is the mother (or big sister) of my Kids afterall. Protecting our spouces and blaming everything on the fog is just not right! They know EXACTLY what they are doing.

You seem to want to learn what it's like to go through this crisis. Perhaps you might hear from more people who have experienced this crisis if you would start listening and stop being so judgmental. Why do you think anyone who has experienced this crisis would want to post about it on this forum when so many of you make us feel like the enemy?

I know I'm wasting my time writing this because there is so much anger and bitterness on this forum that I don't expect it to ever change so I will leave you with one final thought.

I hate to be vindictive but I hope that each and everyone of you who is so self-righteous and quick to condemn those who have experienced this crisis end up going through the crisis yourself. It could easily happen. It isn't unusual for both partners to do so, one after the other, and the fact that you haven't had one yet, doesn't mean that you won't. After all, none of us, including our spouses, had any idea that our spouse would ever experience this crisis so how can you be so sure it won't happen to you? In fact, I think that being so quick to place blame is one sign of somebody who is likely to have a crisis. I'm looking forward to welcoming all of you self-righteous and judgmental people to our world.

Sorry, sometimes my angry part takes over and I've quit trying to control him. I've found that sometimes it's enlightening to let him say his piece. And, for the record, I am not nor have I ever been an MLCer. I am a person. A fellow human being. Somebody who didn't ask to be neglected and abused when I was a child. Somebody who had a wonderful life and a wonderful marriage until nine years ago when I began struggling with depression while going through a severe identity crisis not long after my father died. Somebody whose wife had a similar childhood yet was a wonderful and loving wife until she started a journey similar to mine 5 years and 5 days ago, not long after her father died. Somebody who has been in therapy for the past 4 years for major depressive disorder and has been diagnosed with disorganized childhood attachment, abandonment disorder, PTSD, and a dissociative disorder, either DID or OSDD subtype 1b. Somebody who isn't sure how he got here and would love to have his life back. Somebody who values those who support him and is deeply hurt by those who don't. Somebody who goes to bed every night praying that he won't wake up in the morning.

One more final thought. Count your blessings. If you still want to blame somebody, blame the person or people who damaged your spouse. Or perhaps you might blame the person or people who damaged the person or people who damaged your spouse. Or perhaps you might blame the person or people who damaged the person or people who damaged the person or people who damaged your spouse. Or perhaps you might forget about blaming and try to find some understanding and compassion.


Offline gman242

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2019, 10:26:15 AM »
Brain, I'm absolutely on your side.. I had my MLT, pulled out of it and started job searching, amongst other positive things and trying to climb out of it. W's mother just died and she started her MLC and me coming out of my MLT only proved to her everyone was leaving her behind. Anyway, you know my story.. and I honestly think most of W's life has been spent in some sort of fog or semi dissociative / narcissistic / sociopathic state. 

There are also people in the post MLC crisis threads that say they were totally aware of their actions and they justified them, rationalized, bargained and other other sorts of jedi minds tricks to make them palatable. However, I also know the fog and I've been in and out of it my whole life for various stretches of time and even after BD. If I had to describe it, I'd say it's a lot like being drunk or high. You're watching yourself do things, with little regard for the consequences, from about 10 feet outside and to the back. It's like your body has moved so fast, it's moved forward in time and you're trying to catch up. I had awareness, but not what we'd consider conscious control and trust me, I'd pay for it later, depressed, sobbing and wondering what the hell was wrong with me.

Anyway.. I do agree that the anger, frustration and even at times hatred only serves to hold the individual back and from truly moving on.
Anyway, moving on.. They say the opposite of love is indifference, not hate.. if you're that riled up, they're still controlling you. Letting go of that connection is imperative to grow and truly move on.

Part of that letting go I feel, is believing in a functional sense, that until you see remorse and corrective actions, you do have to believe that the MLCer is doing what they want to. I feel (and you or anyone reading this may or may not agree) that all of the standing actions only serve to keep us tied to the MLCer and can also delay our own growth.

For my wife, I assume she's where she wants to be and shes doing what she wants to. No maybe deep down she doesn't like it and wishes she could change things, but she's also the one not doing it. Hopes, wished and good thoughts aren't going to make her, until she wants to. While they may not be happy, I think may MLCers choose inaction, because it's easier. Or they choose to let the chips fall where they may and just deal with it.

I think that's a terrible way to live myself. Hence, brain, you and I have righted our ships and our spouses, as of this post, haven't. The LBS can still love, ,hope and stand and also accept that their spouses are right where they want to be, doing what they want to. Inaction is also a choice too. I for one don't want to delay my personal growth and progress by waiting for a pot to boil.

But should it happen that she wakes up and moves on, you can be absolutely sure I'm going to remember both of our abusive pasts, how I love my W for who she is and not what she is or was, all of that fog stuff and it's going to make forgiving, forgetting and moving on much easier. 

There's room for both points of view, they're kind of checks and balances for one another, but the spewing of hate and anger isn't good for the person, or the forum. That I also agree with you on.

And it's not just Whyus.. lol. I just tend to turn more of a blind eye to it I guess because I'm used to hardscrabble opinions.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2019, 10:37:45 AM by gman242 »

Online OffRoad

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2019, 10:27:31 AM »
Blame:responsibility for a fault or wrong.. or as a verb: assign responsibility for a fault or wrong.

Why does this word have such a negative connotation when all it does is describe an actual situation? Did person x do thing y? If the answer  is yes, then responsibility is assigned. Own it, deal with it, move forward.  And even if you can't own it, deal with it, move forward, the responsibility doesn't change.

It sounds to me, MBIB, that it isn't the assigning of responsibility that is bothersome to you, but the fact that anyone is angry or upset about it. People get to be upset when someone lies, cheats or otherwise harms them. Just like you get to be angry or upset because you appear to think blame is a bad thing, and not just responsibility for a fault or wrong. We get to have those feelings and own them as ours. But i don't think we can expect that everyone is going to feel exactly like another does  because they have their own life experiences to color their world.

When a person owns their wrong, and tries to make amends, sometimes the responses won't be positive.  That is also part of taking responsibility, imo. Owning that the hurt caused may not be forgiven and that any amends made may not be enough for everyone. It's another opportunity to grow,  accepting whatever responses as  valid, and still doing the responsible thing.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2019, 10:41:38 AM by OffRoad »
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Offline gman242

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2019, 10:40:21 AM »
I haven't been feeling 100% objective lately but OffRoad, you're right.. I think MBIB is just talking about the people that chime in "dude wake up! f that b!tc#!" to the same things, all the time. It's counterproductive and not within the spirit of the forum, I think is all he's saying. I don't disagree..

Online OffRoad

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2019, 11:08:25 AM »
I haven't been feeling 100% objective lately but OffRoad, you're right.. I think MBIB is just talking about the people that chime in "dude wake up! f that b!tc#!" to the same things, all the time. It's counterproductive and not within the spirit of the forum, I think is all he's saying. I don't disagree..
Fair point about anyone who tells someone what to do. Suggesting what to do, ok.

Some of the posters here want to hear about how Shock's sis felt while in mlc and coming out of it , etc. Some want to know how she plans on making amends (like posting here is helping the rest of us and that is a way of making amends that stretches beyond her original scope and for which I am truly grateful). My friend who is coming out of MLT/MLC is MORTIFIED by some of what she has done and she was nowhere on the scale of some of the MLCers here. Since the person she most hurt was herself, she is now trying to make amends to herself.

Many of us joke about the Karma bus, but in truth I think what many want to know is that when the mlcer wakes up, do they feel true remorse? Will they take the responsibility for what they have done, or try to sweep it under the carpet? Because if you do something inappropriate  and no one holds you accountable and you feel no remorse, what's to keep you from doing it again? In fact, why wouldn't you do it again?  There is this belief that if the mlcer feels bad enough for what they did, they won't do it again. And that isn't how it works at all. It's not how bad the mlcer feels, it's how much they want to right their wrongs in whatever way they can. At least that is how I see it.
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Offline Ready2Transform

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2019, 11:33:28 AM »
Absolutely agree Offroad. And I had my own MLC/MLT and am accountable for my actions within it. We can play the "blame game" forever. My FOO damaged me. My xH's FOO damaged him, which likely means their FOO damaged them, and so on, and so on (cue the 1970s Prell shampoo ad  ;D). At some point, I had to take responsibility to stopping the bleeding that I can control (note: not my xH). And I also believe he is a chemically imbalanced person, as am I, which also plays into this. Acknowledging I have issues that I must manage with diet, exercise, meditation and mindset work, my spiritual practice, and if the time comes, pharma, is my responsibility. It doesn't give me a pass to hurt people, financially, emotionally, or physically. Though I am no longer a stander, as I know realistically I could never have the healthy and whole relationship with him again that I wanted (forgiveness for the past or not), it would still be completely on him if he wishes to have a productive life to acknowledge his issues and take the steps he needs to take, every day. As we all do. But he's satisfied with the life he has, so I accept that.

I think the people here are some of the most compassionate I've ever known. I've known truly angry and vindictive people, and they are nothing like this, which I classify as the very useful anger stage of grief. No one would be here if they didn't love their spouse and want to know what happened to them and how to get passed it (either alone or reunited). I think that anger comes to all of us too, whether we direct it at the MLCer, the FOO, or sometimes even the safe place of each other the way the kids involved in this tend to do toward the LBS.

We sometimes need to remind ourselves not to take someone else's path to healing personally. No one is threatening anyone else's stand. If it's that wobbly, where they can bring up intense emotions with so little, it's worthy to be explored why that is, IMO. I went through many of those days myself, especially early on here when people would say to me that I'll be fine no matter what ("NO MATTER WHAT?! No, he'll be back and that's the only possible way!"). Hackles totally up. But y'all were right. ;) The journey to look into those feelings was one that grew me. And I think that's why this happened. We all find our why. The discussion, and respect we give each other, helps.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2019, 11:35:14 AM by Ready2Transform »
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Offline serenity

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2019, 11:40:57 AM »
MB, gman and offroad,

Well said and some excellent points made.

It’s a brave person who’s an ex MLCer that comes here to post and try and help and answer the many questions that we, the LBS’ have

Sadly there are those who will attack and appear angry and as has already happened - most X MLCers don’t bother to come back here because of some of the hostility from certain posters!

Let’s hope that shocks sis stays!

X

 

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