[Treasur]

Emphatically stating that it is very rare for MLCers to return home, even though I will agree that to be true and is perhaps wise for people who are not committed to standing to hear....but for those of us who continue to stand it feels harsh and tends to make me feel like I am a doormat for choosing how I treat my spouse...which is not what most HS posters would agree is "right" and which is why I don't post any updates of what has and is happening in our relationship.

I am sorry that this is how you might feel sometimes, xyz.
Speaking for myself, I think it is a shame if that is a barrier to your sharing updates bc I think we can all learn from different experiences and particularly perhaps from those further down the path. The script from the earlier stages seems to take quite diverging paths over time and that is useful for others to see imho.

I am not sure I see the same link from the sad fact that returns are rare to the statement making you feel as if others view you as a doormat bc of your choice to stand or how you stand. You will know of course how much of this is about your own tender spots vs the tender spots of others. I have often found your perspective to be a thought provoking one as, although my situation and choices are different, my faith and my vows are important to me too and it is not always easy to reconcile that with my new realities.

[Nerissa]

Emphatically stating that it is very rare for MLCers to return home, even though I will agree that to be true and is perhaps wise for people who are not committed to standing to hear....but for those of us who continue to stand it feels harsh and tends to make me feel like I am a doormat for choosing how I treat my spouse...which is not what most HS posters would agree is "right" and which is why I don't post any updates of what has and is happening in our relationship.

I am sorry that this is how you might feel sometimes, xyz.
Speaking for myself, I think it is a shame if that is a barrier to your sharing updates bc I think we can all learn from different experiences and particularly perhaps from those further down the path. The script from the earlier stages seems to take quite diverging paths over time and that is useful for others to see imho.

I am not sure I see the same link from the sad fact that returns are rare to the statement making you feel as if others view you as a doormat bc of your choice to stand or how you stand. You will know of course how much of this is about your own tender spots vs the tender spots of others. I have often found your perspective to be a thought provoking one as, although my situation and choices are different, my faith and my vows are important to me too and it is not always easy to reconcile that with my new realities.

I also feel sorry you sometimes don’t want to update xyzcf.  I think there is a huge difference between someone in the early days who is blinded by hope and pain  and allowing abusive behaviour and someone who has worked/ is working things through, perhaps with professional help, and makes a decision they can best live with.  I like reading your perspective and experience and have found it valuable to me.

[Finding Joy]

I agree XYZ.  In the early days it is so important to understand that the odds are against the MLCer coming back.  It helps the LBS to focus on their healing.  It allows the decision to stand or not to be made with all of the facts.

You chose to stand with those facts in front of you due to your personal convictions and beliefs.  I also hold marriage, and my vows in high regard and find this situation incredibly difficult to reconcile with how much I am willing to endure.  I think your perspective is valuable and much can be learned from your experience.

[Anjae]

Fist off, allow me a correction. It was not Acorn that maintaining dignity is all the necesarry Paving The Way. It was Nas. Acorn quoted Nas.


Speaking for myself, I don't think forgiveness is overrated. Forgiveness is for us. I find that forgiving lifted a weight. Forgiving does not equal wanting to reconnect or reconcile. I also always said that it is probably easy for forgive when the MLCer is not back than when they are.

I see though that people believe that they are "right" and that anyone who doesn't agree with them is "wrong."

Funny, I see the same from those who don't like the truth, that few will reconcile. Even if all facts and evidences say that few will reconcile there are people that, for some reason, seem to want to hide the head in the sand. I am speaking in general terms.

It is condescending and hurtful to those with different beliefs and values and shuts down any respectful dialogue or debate.

That could be said for those of us who do not see the use of Paving The Way and that are not Standing. Even if many, including long time LBS have long been in new relationships or marriages and long time standers are rare, those who are not standing often taken a beat. A huge beat.


Rage? No rage from me. I just find it illogical. If one is Paving The Way, as the expression itself implies, one is doing it towards something or someone. And that is contray to detach and let it go. Since we know most will never reconcile the way Paving The Way is written and the purpose of its use only serves a handful of LBS.

You may be confussion having an opinion with being enraged.

Even standing implies an outcome. One is standing for something or someone. HS has many contradictory terms and ideas. Yet, once again, standing is at odds with letting it go and no expectations. If one is standing one has an expectation.

Confusing, right?

I see a line being drawn between being empathetic and being a pretzeled doormat. 

Agree.

Doormat is used by RCR in the articles. It is easy to understand and accurate. Some LBS are doormats. They allow the MLCer to walk all over them, bow to the MLCers regardless of what he/she does, keep in contact with their married MLCer, have no boundaries, etc.

Emphatically stating that it is very rare for MLCers to return home, even though I will agree that to be true and is perhaps wise for people who are not committed to standing to hear....but for those of us who continue to stand it feels harsh and tends to make me feel like I am a doormat for choosing how I treat my spouse...which is not what most HS posters would agree is "right" and which is why I don't post any updates of what has and is happening in our relationship.

It is not harsh. It is a fact. You yourself agree with the fact. RCR is fully aware of the fact. RCR have also always said that the longer the crisis the lower the chances of reconciliation.

I don't think you have to worry. You will reconcile. I don't see you as a doormat. You have a nice, very mild MLCer that has never been abusive nor left you in financial dire straits. He is also not married to his alienator.

I see no reason for sugar coating the truth. RCR is quite brutal in several of her articles as well as in her posts. Maybe people forgot what is in several of the articles? HB is often equally brutal in her articles.

I'm with Ready2. I don't think you were "lucky". You knew your MLCer/which type he was. I would most certainly had reconciled if my MLCer was like yours. He isn't. He and many MLCers are not like yours. And that is where I think, at times, you "fail". You have no first hand experience with many sides of MLC. Sides that are far more complex than the ones who dealt with.

[xyzcf]

I am going to take some of the comments posted here pertaining to my own personal situation and respond to them on the Old Timer's thread....we have wandered off topic as is so often the case.

Stay tuned:

https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=10761.0

[lawprofessor]

Lucky with your MLCer, RCR?  Hmmm well I suppose you were in some ways.  And we should acknowledge there is luck in this.  Especially in the type of MLCer we get.

 You got a nice one relatively speaking.
He didn't think you were the root of all evil. 
He was willing to speak to you.
He wasn't violent and nasty. 
He didn't bankrupt you. 
He didn't vanish into thin air so to speak. 
You knew weeks before he left that he was leaving. 

That's lots to at least be thankful for and to feel lucky about if that's the way you mean by lucky.

So naturally your experience informed your writings. 

And yet, I'd think you would also agree that very very few of the posters here have that situation or anything close to it.

So for some your writings don't feel like as direct a fit or as applicable.  You state the same principals can be applied when the chance arises but what if the chance doesn't arise?  I have two friends here who have not seen, spoken to, nor heard from their MLCer in over 5 years since the day they were bd.  Neither even knows the address or telephone of either. 

Another example, validation.  When I replied to my MLCer, "I'm sorry you feel that way" he slapped me in the back of my head and said "Have you suddenly developed brain damage agreeing with the crap I said?  It's condescending and rude as well as brainless."

Validate him again?  Not a chance.  It just made him angrier.

And I have to say, to me, I agree with my ex that validation phrases are annoying and dismissive. 

But yes, from my perspective you were lucky in many ways. 

And yes, I can see exactly what Anjae means when she wrote, "You have no first hand experience with many sides of MLC. Sides that are far more complex than the ones who dealt with."  Although I'd have worded it differently. 

All that sums up to much has changed since this site began and evidence has accumulated.  Is it time for you to consider updating or changing or a tighter focus or something else?  Up to you to invest the time or not?

Lp

[Anjae]

You got a nice one relatively speaking.
He didn't think you were the root of all evil. 
He was willing to speak to you.
He wasn't violent and nasty. 
He didn't bankrupt you. 
He didn't vanish into thin air so to speak. 
You knew weeks before he left that he was leaving. 

That's lots to at least be thankful for and to feel lucky about if that's the way you mean by lucky.

I agree that is a lot to feel/be thankful and lucky for.

And yet, I'd think you would also agree that very very few of the posters here have that situation or anything close to it.

And I would second you.


"I'm sorry you feel that way" sound silly in Portuguese  No one says that. If I were to say it to Mr J, or something similar, he would laugh and think I had gone mad or monster big time. The first, I think.

Some concepts/words/terms from HS do not apply well in another language and/or a country other than the US.

And I have to say, to me, I agree with my ex that validation phrases are annoying and dismissive.

Yes, they can be. It will also depend of the person/MLCer.


I could had worded it differently, but I am a bit tired and writing in a second language. And my dyslexia is showing. I wrote "who dealt with" instead of "you dealt with". I think the meaning come across and that is what matter.

All that sums up to much has changed since this site began and evidence has accumulated.

Indeed it has. I have accumulated many years of real life experience as well. I think we all, or many of us, have.

[MKnight10]

After all the discussion, what does it mean and how do you 'pave the way'  ?

How does one forgive a spouse for an affair, creating an unharmonious environment in the family home, moving out, changing your name, carrying on with OM after repeated denials it wasn't happening.....initiating divorce....

What if I don't want to pave the way for a return, but just want peaceful exchanges for the sake of the kids.

....but my heart aches for the life we once had, the woman she once was......it feels repulsive to be physical with her again, if she ever came knocking on the door, attempting to pass it all off as a mistake.

There are days it feels like my heart and soul have been ripped out and stamped upon; there are other days I feel just ok.

How long does it take to feel more than ok.....

[karmirtsaghik]

There are contradictions in the phrase "pave the way".  We are told here that we should detach, and live our lives the way that they are not coming back. Also the advice is that we cannot control their process. However pave the way means that we indeed can control the process.

I personally refuse to bend, refuse to lose my integrity for the sake of restoration of marriage, refuse to not be myself. It is not my job to make it comfortable for him. I should be able to speak my mind, if he does not like it so be it. I do not need him. I work two jobs, take care of two kids, am tired but I can do whatever I want. I will not accept anything else. So if he wants to come back he needs to pave his own way and he will need an excavator for that.

My MLC spouse says that he is ready to apologize and make as many amends as necessary for me to forgive him and let him come back home. So far I see a lot of talk and not so much actions. He is respectful, no monster, we are able to be cordial. but still does not work, does not live up to his parental responsibilities. For me that is a deal breaker and I told him that.

[Anjae]

After all the discussion, what does it mean and how do you 'pave the way'  ?

I may not the best person to answer, but I will try. By being nice and civil towards our MLCer. By focussing in ourselves and our kids if we have them. By carry on with our life. There is no reconnection/reconciliation without a strong LBS. Therefore, the way I see it, we first need to focus on ourselves.

How does one forgive a spouse for an affair, creating an unharmonious environment in the family home, moving out, changing your name, carrying on with OM after repeated denials it wasn't happening.....initiating divorce....

I don't know. Each of us will get there, if we will, on our own way and time. Maybe by letting go, maybe by healing ourselves. Maybe another away. Regardless of how, forgiveness may not happen all at once. It may come in waves.

How long does it take to feel more than ok.....

I don't know. I'm sorry if I am answering with I don't know a lot, but I really do not know. All I  can say is that it will be different for each of us.  Sadly, there is no magical solution to go back to feel OK.

There are contradictions in the phrase "pave the way".  We are told here that we should detach, and live our lives the way that they are not coming back. Also the advice is that we cannot control their process. However pave the way means that we indeed can control the process.

Indeed there are contradictions. Maybe RCR can elabore on those.

I personally refuse to bend, refuse to lose my integrity for the sake of restoration of marriage, refuse to not be myself. It is not my job to make it comfortable for him. I should be able to speak my mind, if he does not like it so be it. I do not need him. I work two jobs, take care of two kids, am tired but I can do whatever I want. I will not accept anything else.

So if he wants to come back he needs to pave his own way and he will need an excavator for that.

What an interesting concept/idea, that the MLCer needs to pave their way back. I cannot say I disagree. However, there is always a but, right, MLCers tend to return broken. I am not sure if they are able to pave the way for anything/towards the LBS. From reading reconnection stories and from real life stories I know, it seems more they tend to come back, or want back, out of the blue.