[1trouble]

I was thinking , wondering ,  if the difference of opinion here is that 1trouble has heard the words from her mlc that he apologizes, ow is no good and so on that it makes it easier to stand in the position she is in . Compared to the ones who have heard nothing like 1t has heard from her mlcer. Some of us have heard nothing , nothing to help us heal from the mlcers pov. I think if many of us heard what 1t has heard , well it might just help us all. even though we all know this is not our fault, that the mlcer makes it up to be , it would still be nice to hear from the mlcer himself. When someone tears you down so much , it takes time to heal , a long time. But if the one who tore you down were to tell you , it was all my fault and your are really a good person , the healing would not take half as long.
My h said almost 2 years ago that he hated what he had done to me and the kids. Sure it made me feel good. He said you know that is not me.   Some sort of admittance that he was wrong.   Sad to say he is still a mess.

I read this at work and I just want to say for the record.........my MLC'er has never apologised
He said he had made a mistake and he said the OW was not fit to lick my boots BUT then went back the next day ( 7 weeks ago) to be with his now wife and I haven't heard a peep since....
To me those words were as pointless, as those MLC'ers who say they want to come home and then go back in the fog, these words are all uttered from someone who is still deep in crisis and just having a moment where the fog was not so thick,
They are empty words and as the old saying goes 'actions speak louder than words'.....give me actions every time

As I understood it, what 1T is saying is that if you are questioning your marriage pre-BD, that's your own issue to deal with, not the MLCer's. If you don't know if it was real when it seemed real before, well, that's all a matter of your own perception.

That's different IMO from getting an explanation or remorse from the MLCer for what happened during MLC though.

And thank you  NYM for getting what I meant...…


And to the moderators I think SS thread is invaluable and this discussion that is now taking place is derailing SS much needed insights so IMO maybe the question of apologies etc needs to be split onto another thread

But before I finish what I will say is before I met my MLC'er I was in a few very abusive relationships, (physical and mental abuse) I have documented why before, basically I was raped when I was 16 and it caused me to have a very low self esteem which meant I was an easy target for abuse
So I do come here with a lot of experience of gaslighting  and I have had to work hard to stop those negative messages in my head and to his credit my MLC'er before all this helped me massively and I am very grateful for that

I know what abuse is and I know what love is

AND Also I want to suggest that we can all get into the trap of feeling 'safe' in our role of "wronged victim",

Before anyone points any fingers or takes this personally, I am NOT saying this about anyone in particular

I hold my hands up to doing it, of being in that particular bubble of putting more effort into why I could not move forward and almost feeling I was a special case and had been wronged more than anyone can understand,  of putting more energy into staying stuck looking for answers instead of just putting one foot in front of the other and moving forward slowly.

Don't get me wrong I know we are a 'special case' in some respects because we don't get the empathy or sympathy someone who is bereaved does and people jump to assumptions of why our marriages went wrong there is that hint of 'no-one knows what goes on behind closed doors' mentality BUT why should we then join those doubters, and doubt what we had and our own experience, surely that is gaslighting ourselves? 

For most of us, including me there will not be a heartfelt apology, I definitely don't see getting one and I don't seek it either, it wont change anything.  One of the people who absused me spent years telling any shared acquaintances we had how much he regretted everything, even said he wanted to reconcile, it didn't mean anything to me because I had moved on it was his loss as far as I was concerned.

[sparklestar]

1t that second to last paragraph just jumped out at me. It’s the lack of understanding of others that’s sometimes makes it so hard to ever talk about. I feel like you have to give some long winded explanation that it wasn’t a normal divorce or breakup, that I was effectively ‘ghosted’ by my own husband and that there weren’t any discussions or month or years of unhappiness (that I knew about) and I think people automatically assume there must have been ‘problems’ in the marriage. It’s always bothered me.

And 1t, your story always has and probably always will shock me. I just don’t get how your MLCr can say what he does and then disappear again.

In reference to SS and this thread, I don’t know if it’s just me but I would LOVE to see a conversation between Denjef and Shocks sis this has been so helpful to so many and I know when Denjef was answering our questions a few years ago it was also invaluable!

[megogirl]

but I would LOVE to see a conversation between Denjef and Shocks sis this has been so helpful to so many and I know when Denjef was answering our questions a few years ago it was also invaluable!

I second that!  They're both equally valuable!

[Bewildered survivor]

I’m also one who has had no words of regret since BD. In fact my MLCer is going out of his way to ‘show’ me how great OW is and how great his life is. Of course I intellectually know that if it was that great & he was so happy to have left me then my reaction wouldnt matter to him. In fact one of the most hurtful texts (a long time ago when I was engaging with monster) he said how leaving me was the best thing he did and all he wanted was his children & OW bla bla oh and how she valued things in life soo much more (she hardly works, he pays for everything and she had nothing before- of course she values him (& his bank balance) oh and of course herself when she went after a married man 

Anyway I digress...my point is that when you’ve had monster who has been consistently abusive- even & normal text without the abuse would be much appreciated. Some respite from the gas lighting would also be great. An apology or just a sentence saying what 1T’s MLCer said I would lap up I think. It would also confirm and validate what’s going on.  However when such things have been said soo many times and when actions don’t fit what they say- I also understand how hard that would be.  Saying something like that about OW  & then going back to her I find soo hard to comprehend.

What shocks sis says about her stage of indifference is also welcome. With not much contact I don’t know if he’s anywhere near it. All I know is that it’s been 2 years since BD and the anger and hatred towards me is still burning strong- even with minimal contact.

I respect what shocks sis says about her decision regarding her xh and we have no idea about individual circumstances or details. Personally however even if I have moved on- I don’t see myself ever not wanting an apology. Just a “I’m sorry for what I did”. If I was in a relationship I can understand how saying ‘I never stopped loving you’ would not be appropriate. 3 years ago if someone had said you will feel high levels of anxiety having any communication with you H I would never have believed them. But at this stage I would be totally avoidant of any communication- and if he was to come out of this I’m sure he would pick up on it and the amount of hurt & pain he’s caused and like shocks sis maybe not want to hurt me more. I wonder shocks sis if you are also anxious and worried about what his reaction to you would be- every human being has a natural instinct to avoid what makes us feel under threat- inc possible rejection, the uncertainty & unknown but also any reminder of past trauma.

Thank you for your continued insights and answers (at times repeated answers) & your patience shocks sis. Having no insight from my MLCer,  I soo appreciate yours. Unfortunately my MLCer is making all the decisions you say he shouldn’t whilst deep in the fog & so the crazy train wreck continues.

[Anjae]

I got several I'm sorries and it is all my fault from Mr J early on and in 2012. Made no difference. He remained in Replay and MLC life. If the apologies and the it was all his faul was heartfelt, I don't know. Some were with him crying saying he was depressed and didn't knew what to do, but wanted no help. 

Mr J is not an indifferent MLCer. He is the sort who wants my attention and does all he can to get it, even if it means to do tons of ugly, nasty, hurtful things, including all sorts of abuse. He wants fights and arguments and gets truly angry when he gets none.

He is exhausting and that is why, at a point, I cut him off. I needed peace and to keep my sanity. In one month it will be 13 years Mr J left. His anger and nasty towards me remains full force.

Apologies don't mean much to me, actions do. So far, Mr J's ones have not showed he is anywhere near having a good insight into his issues or how to start solving them. Let alone making amends towards me. I am speaking of practical amends. Him stop being rude in several of the few occasions we interact for legal or business reasons  would also be welcome.

[Standing Strong]

I got several I'm sorries and it is all my fault from Mr J early on and in 2012. Made no difference. He remained in Replay and MLC life. If the apologies and the it was all his faul was heartfelt, I don't know. Some were with him crying saying he was depressed and didn't knew what to do, but wanted no help. 

Mr J is not an indifferent MLCer. He is the sort who wants my attention and does all he can to get it, even if it means to do tons of ugly, nasty, hurtful things, including all sorts of abuse. He wants fights and arguments and gets truly angry when he gets none.

He is exhausting and that is why, at a point, I cut him off. I needed peace and to keep my sanity. In one month it will be 13 years Mr J left. His anger and nasty towards me remains full force.

Apologies don't mean much to me, actions do. So far, Mr J's ones have not showed he is anywhere near having a good insight into his issues or how to start solving them. Let alone making amends towards me. I am speaking of practical amends. Him stop being rude in several of the few occasions we interact for legal or business reasons  would also be welcome.

Anjae,

I could be wrong.... but I think the desire is for them to come out of MLC and then apologize and explain..... not before (as that does mean nothing.....sometimes).

As for me, it would be great for W to come out and explain all the terrible things she said to me, and say she's sorry for them. I'd like that..... not so much for the being sorry, but for knowing she made it, she's going to be ok, and that the person I knew is truly alive again.
I hope.... someday.

-SS

[Anjae]

I could be wrong.... but I think the desire is for them to come out of MLC and then apologize and explain..... not before (as that does mean nothing.....sometimes).

SS, 1trouble mentioned hers said he made a terrible mistake, Bewildered that she got no words of regret since BD, I mentioned what Mr J said over the years. We are talking about our experiences with our MLCer.

I'm sure yes, most, or many, here would like the out of crisis MLCer to apologize and explain.

I don't want or need an explanation, I'm familiar with the explanations MLCers give - the explanations also tend to follow a scrip and be similar. I need practical amends.

I am not sure you understand what 13 years in Replay mean... and how much of a difference that makes from a MLCer who is, say a few months or  2 or 3 years into Replay. I also don't know if, as a newbie, you understand the difference between having a spouse whose BD was a few months ago and having a spouse/MLCer whose BD was over 10 years ago.

After 5, 7, 10, 13 or so years of a spouse who no longer is the same person I think many of us change a little bit the way we see things.

[SteelSpine]

I think apologies are overrated. I always roll my eyes whenever a politician "Demands An Apology!" from another one. I don't think that it achieves much.

That being said however, I have had numerous apologies from my h, many of which I honestly believe were sincere. He is much like 1t's h.

No monster after the first six months or so, and sometimes I have even received apologies in advance.

I am not saying that I would prefer an abusive mlc'er, but all the confusion and contrition kept hope alive, and hampered my detachment. It also fed the voice in my head that said "It really WAS me, and our marriage, and it's not MLC at all"

It was any hint of crazytown behavior that I lapped up.

[Acorn]

Interesting topic, these 4 A’s.

I remember desperately wanting to hear H’s sincere words of 4 A’s.
Now I couldn’t give rats about them.  Give me action any day, preferably every single day!
 
What I have learned through my LBS-hood is that words are cheap indeed.
Words without matching actions is dead.  Well, comatose, at least, until actions follow. 

Actions, mostly unaccompanied by words, restore and heal R.  That’s been so with us.
H mumbled a few words of 4 A’s here and there but his redemption is mostly through his actions, and everyday. 

Words are overrated. Not just with MLCer, but with everyone.  But then, that’s just me.

[OffRoad]

A genuine apology or remorse from my MLCER would not make me feel better about what he did. It would make be feel better about where he will end up and how my kids will end up. I realized recently, I've reached the point where I am ok enough to want every one else in this tragedy to also come out healthy and whole. Right now, my kids think what happened was "normal". An apology from their father would show them different. Remorse from xh would show me he has the concept of morally acceptable and isn't dead inside anymore.
To me apologies and remorse are not just words spoken. They are everything you do, words and actions.

How do the players in this mess come out whole, when part of them think this is just how you do things?