[terrified_in_TN]

...
Second, in spite of the BS I often read on this site about them knowing what they're doing and doing it anyway...

Brain, don't you think this particular statement is a bit dismissive of those of us who find it to be true?  I think both viewpoints are equally valid, and it comes off to me as a bit of an attack to those who happen to believe that particular statement, which I DO.

My analogy since its something I can relate to VERY well:  Smoking.  I do it.  I know its bad for me.  It will probably be what kills me.  It is an EXTREME addiction that is difficult to shake.  If I were diagnosed with lung cancer today, although I am sure I would go through all the stages of grief, I STILL would not blame the tobacco companies.  They didn't hold a gun to my head and force me to smoke.  It was a CHOICE.  Now you could say I lack the willpower to quit, therefore I HAVE no choice.  While the former may be true, the latter is not.  Although its an extreme addiction to shake, ultimately the only person I can blame for my smoking is me.

I happen to feel the same way about MLC.

-T

[Thunder]

Terrified, I THINK we are on the same page.

I don't think a midlife crisis is a choice, but do believe there is a choice what you do about it.
The choice to have an affair, is a choice.  Leaving you family is a choice.  No one is holding a gun to your head.

I'm not saying it is an easy choice, I don't believe it is.  I'm sure it's extremely difficult.
There is a very strong pull to run away or chuck your responsibilities and find an affair partner.

I also believe if you find yourself feeling these things that may destroy your marriage, or walk out on your kids, find some help.  You know it's not normal or you wouldn't feel guilty about it, when you do it.
They are not mentally ill.  They are in a life crisis, yes, but they still have choices.

I know not everyone feels this way, and that's ok, it's just my opinion.

[nah]

...
Second, in spite of the BS I often read on this site about them knowing what they're doing and doing it anyway...

Brain, don't you think this particular statement is a bit dismissive of those of us who find it to be true?  I think both viewpoints are equally valid, and it comes off to me as a bit of an attack to those who happen to believe that particular statement, which I DO.

My analogy since its something I can relate to VERY well:  Smoking.  I do it.  I know its bad for me.  It will probably be what kills me.  It is an EXTREME addiction that is difficult to shake.  If I were diagnosed with lung cancer today, although I am sure I would go through all the stages of grief, I STILL would not blame the tobacco companies.  They didn't hold a gun to my head and force me to smoke.  It was a CHOICE.  Now you could say I lack the willpower to quit, therefore I HAVE no choice.  While the former may be true, the latter is not.  Although its an extreme addiction to shake, ultimately the only person I can blame for my smoking is me.

I happen to feel the same way about MLC.

-T

I think that’s a perfect analogy, T. I often use drugs and or alcohol but smoking is even a better analogy

Brain, I also find it very arrogant to assume you know someone, anyone, better than they know themselves.  This has come up before with you. Since you want to exhaust every avenue, is it possible, just possible, that your wife had thoughts she didn’t feel comfortable sharing with you?
 No? Not possible. Why? Because you say so?

Maybe she dreamed about escaping her protected life for some freedom. No?  She wouldn’t choose to escape because you have decided that she is too weak to make decisions for herself?

Jack, I respect that you are looking for answers. Very normal. I did that myself for a very long time. Heck, I still stop sometimes and read articles about MLC, depression, addictions, etc. I realize I don’t have the answers and most likely will never have the answers. Maybe it was some kind of mysterious fog or maybe he just felt old and a young blonde looked his way, and he was gone.

For me, like Whyus said, the point is he’s gone.

We all go through different stages to process this mess, all on our own timelines.

[marvin4242]

terrified_in_TN: I know you are asking brain but if its ok I want to add something.

I am completely in agreement with you about action/consequence, decision/outcome and responsibility. Not from a moral stand point, but for me its about mental health, existing in a coherent state with reality which is both an indicator of mental balance and a contributor to it. So in you example you are making a choice with a relatively comprehensive understanding of consequence, and you are clearly living by it.

I am going to use this unrealistic example to illustrate what I believe is part of the MLC experience (part, not all). If someone is in so much pain/turmoil and suffering from cognitive dissonance, let's say its because of a sudden impact to the head, and let's imagine they have no idea that glass is fragile. When they go around dropping glass and it shatters it doesn't take away the consequence and damage of what they had done. But trying to understand it as compared to someone who does its not the same. It doesn't take away their responsibility, but it creates a context and understanding.

I can say that I clearly see my wife in all manners of disassociate states over the past three years. I know her pretty well and we were very open and talked about everything, and I am very well aware of her FOO issues and traumas that finally blew up. So when she does something truly hurtful and she registers NONE of it I know there is something not working on the action/consequence part. Its not that she doesn't care, its more like a cord has been cut and the two things are no longer interlinked in her mind.

Does that mean I am not deeply hurt? Darn no. Does it mean she is "allowed" to do anything she wants? Again no. But if this is the case then we get to decide what it means to each of us, and there is no single answer. And also there are probably many variants including maybe some MLCers who simply never cared and just covered it up.

[Not Applicable]

I respect that people have different opinions on whether MLC is a choice or a compulsion and personally I sort of come down in the middle somewhere.

However, I get the feeling that many people believe it is one or the other not because of any factual or scientific reasoning (even if they claim it), but because of how they feel about the situation itself, whether they are angry, want reconciliation, whether they can forgive a cheater, etc. etc.

In a way, I don't think any LBS is in a position to definitively say one way or another because none of us can be completely objective about it.

[nah]

Good point.

[MyBrainIsBroken]

...
Second, in spite of the BS I often read on this site about them knowing what they're doing and doing it anyway...

Brain, don't you think this particular statement is a bit dismissive of those of us who find it to be true? 

Your arrogant friend,
MBIB

I agree. It was dismissive but it's still my OPINION. I should qualify it and say that it's possible that not every situation on here is MLC and my statement only applies to MLCers. There may be some on here whose spouses really did know what they were doing and chose to do it anyway. In my OPINION, those are not MLC.

My analogy since its something I can relate to VERY well:  Smoking.

T, how old were you when you started smoking? Suppose you learned that the tobacco companies had targeted children in their marketing campaigns, knowing that children wouldn't have a mature enough understanding of the risks involved, knowing that children wouldn't understand how addictive cigarettes are and how difficult it is to stop smoking once you started, and knowing that if they were able to get those children hooked on smoking that they would probably be addicted for life? Would that change your mind about the tobacco companies guilt?

I know its bad for me.  It will probably be what kills me.

No offense but do you realize how irrational this sounds? If it's a choice, then STOP! Are you really choosing to die from lung cancer? I suspect your answer will be no, but you continue to smoke in spite of the fact that you believe doing so will probably kill you. You're "choosing" to do something which will probably result in an outcome that you don't want. How is that a choice?

BTW, my wife's stepfather was a lifelong smoker who died from lung cancer. It was a very unpleasant way to die.

I don't smoke so it would be easy for me to consider you weak for continuing to smoke when you believe that it's bad for you but I don't feel that way because I used to smoke. I know how hard it is to quit. I used to count my cigarettes at the end of the day to make sure I wouldn't run out before the stores opened in the morning.

You haven't lived through an MLC so it's easy for you to believe that MLCers are weak and are choosing to do the things they do but think about this. MLCers who follow their compulsions blow up their lives and their families but at least they aren't choosing to do something they believe will eventually lead to a slow and painful death.

Brain, I also find it very arrogant to assume you know someone, anyone, better than they know themselves.  This has come up before with you.

Nah, it's always nice to hear from you. I appreciate your efforts to keep me humble. I'm afraid I think it's pretty arrogant of you to point out my flaws without closely reading what I wrote.

We were a couple for 36 years and married for 34 years. I knew her better than I knew anyone and almost as well as I knew myself but I had no idea who this person was who was going through this crisis.

Where does it say that I felt I knew her better than she knew herself? It seems like what I write doesn't matter because you've already decided that you know who I am. And you think I'm the arrogant one.

In a way, I don't think any LBS is in a position to definitively say one way or another because none of us can be completely objective about it.

This is a good point but when an MLCer or ex-MLCer posts that it was a compulsion they were powerless to resist there are LBSes that still doubt which leads me to believe that some LBSes have already made up their mind and don't want to hear anything that doesn't support their belief. If you really want 2 plus 2 to equal 5 then it's a waste of time to try to tell you anything else. You aren't looking for knowledge or understanding, you're looking for confirmation.

I can't give you that. I can't agree with you that 2+2=5 or that smoking when you believe it's going to kill you is a rational choice or that blowing up the life and family you loved while going through a severe crisis is a rational choice. I just can't do it. I'm sorry if that makes me arrogant. I guess I'm just a jerk. But at least I was strong enough to quit smoking. Maybe I'm a jerk who has the experience to know the difference between things that are hard choices and things that are irresistible compulsions.

I spend a lot of time editing my posts before submitting them, hoping that my meaning will be clear. Please carefully read what I wrote before firing up your flamethrowers.

[terrified_in_TN]

I respect that people have different opinions on whether MLC is a choice or a compulsion and personally I sort of come down in the middle somewhere.

...

I feel similar NYM.  I guess what gets me is if a MLCer stated "I *FELT* that I had no choice", I'll buy that no problem.  But if a MLCers states "I had no choice" I just feel as if its a simply untrue statement.

I like that word "compulsion" you used.  I think that fits well.  The compulsion one feels to run away and do what they do I have no doubt is EXTREMELY strong.  Probably one of the strongest pulls they have ever felt in their life.  I truly believe that.  I just can't stand the blanket statement that they had NO choice.

Semantics?  Probably.  But reading on an internet forum without body language, voice cues, etc you have to take the wording at face value.

Marvin-you lost me a little bit.  But in your example, you state to imagine that they have no idea that glass is fragile.  With MLC, I am pretty sure they know the consequences of their actions.  Maybe not to the EXTENT of those consequences, but I feel they know they are taking a risk when they run.  I also feel that is often why they try to keep the lbs on the shelf-as plan B with anchor checks and such.  But again, this last bit is my personal opinion with nothing to back up why I feel the way I do other than a gut feeling based on my own experience.

But you also alluded to head trauma/mental illness.  That is very valid.  And there probably are some "MLCers" who radically change behaviors & values because of it.  I do believe that too.  As has been said I don't think there is any one item to blame for "MLC".  But my personal opinion above is for lack of a better word my feeling for your typical garden variety MLCer who has no indication of mental illness, trauma, or any other medical cause for their behaviors.

-T

[nah]

I’m on my phone so it’s difficult to pull out a quote of a long response.

Brain, I stand corrected, I misread what you wrote.

[terrified_in_TN]

Brian, I don't think you realized, but you kinda helped make my point...

To answer your question:  I was 14 when I started.

I agree with you:  The tobacco companies I'm sure targeted children with ads and such.  And made their products highly addictive.

They still didn't force me to start smoking.  And they don't force me to continue smoking.

Yes, it IS a choice.  Just stop?  I wish I could.  I never said it was an EASY CHOICE.  I just said that it was a choice.  Like my last post said...semantics probably.

I think it comes down to accepting responsibility for your life choices vs being the perpetual victim.  Sure I could blame the tobacco companies for my poor life choices, which seems to be an all to common theme these days.....nothing is EVER anyone's fault.  Its ALWAYS someone else to blame.

For the record, I do hope one day to quit.

-T