[OffRoad]

I will give you one example that comes to mind. A lot of people believe that the MLCer will want to come back when they feel the MLCer pull away. Off the top of my head, this is something I believe that BBHelp and Stayed (among many others) has said happened in their cases. Watcher recently filed for divorce and he admittedly expected that his wife might panic and start turning back once he did that, but she didn't. Does that mean the conventional wisdom is wrong, is his wife an outlier, is it a matter of the timing of the pulling away?

If someone posts that X happened in their case, or that in their opinion Z, that is anecdotable evidence of Y amount of people, not the entire forum. And in my experience, the post goes more like "The MLC may insert themselves back into LBS's life when they feel the LBS pulling away" indicating a possible boomerang situation.  Most of the standing advice is simply to keep the LBS from  destroying any chance of reconnection, reconciliation IF THEY WANT THAT. MOst of the main advice is "Take care of yourself", which, IMO, is beyond valuable to someone who just got their entire world knocked off kilter.

The only posts I find dubiously dangerous are the one where someone will state emphatically that X thing IS, when that statement was really only an opinion. Or say that they have a better chance because their MLCer is home, as if those who don't have one at home are somehow less likely to re-connect/ reconcile. Or when someone recommends being a doormat under the guise of kumbaya for the MLCer.

I suppose there are some here who want the step by step guide to getting your partner back. That's available online from a whole host of sources and is so successful MLC is now extinct!! Oh, it's not? How about that.....

 I think some post to see if we can help someone the way someone else helped us, to pay it forward. Some need a place to talk through thoughts and maybe get some feedback as they grow. Some want to see if the re-connection was worth it (there are some stories here that make me think, NOPE).  Maybe some people care more about finding kindred spirits than finding that magic way back to their marriage. I'd like more specific examples of advice that is dangerous, or harmful.

[Treasur]

Imho rational advice over instincts can be quite useful when your instincts are fried by shock and your mindset by the habits of your preBD marriage. It isn't instinctive for most of us to seek legal advice super quickly or treat our spouse as a financial threat or assume that what they say is probably a lie. But it is quite common. And often our life experience is that if someone does x and we respond with y, often their behaviour modifies to x- and some kind of opportunity is created for a more reciprocal conversation. Not always but often enough so many LBS try that but are bewildered when it doesn't 'work'. Often I think it is that bewilderment that a no longer equals b that brings the LBS here.

Both LbS and MLCer have that darned thing called free will of course.
And not all situations here are the same necessarily or have the same root causes or MLC script.
And as Ready said, we are only communicating with the LBS side of the coin here.

I guess the implied question that sits behind NYM's interesting question is if one believes that any LBS has any constructive influence on the path that an MLC spouse takes.
The answer to that might be a fundamental difference between some of us.
And of course our individual answer might be a result of our own individual experience.

If you think yes perhaps, then it makes sense to question advice that 'works' or doesn't.
If you think no, then it makes sense that the usefulness of advice is sbout LBS wellbeing regardless.
If you think yes sometimes and no at other times, perhaps there are specific situations or phases when advice 'works' for particular goals that involve both LBS and MLCer?

On the original thread question, it makes sense that the MLC lens may work differently if you do believe that you can use it to influence your MLCers mindset or actions.

So is the real starting question, NYM, if you believe that the LBS can have any constructive influence on the MLCer? And if so, when or under what conditions? And then moving to examine what works or doesn't?

[Mortesbride]

That said, I think it is simply that we have a lot of dogmatic advice given to us here but there is no empirical evidence it works. There's a lot of conventional wisdom out there too that may just be old wive's tales. We don't have studies of if you do this, the MLCer will do that, or not.

I will give you one example that comes to mind. A lot of people believe that the MLCer will want to come back when they feel the LBSer pull away. Off the top of my head, this is something I believe that BBHelp and Stayed (among many others) has said happened in their cases. Watcher recently filed for divorce and he admittedly expected that his wife might panic and start turning back once he did that, but she didn't. Does that mean the conventional wisdom is wrong, is his wife an outlier, is it a matter of the timing of the pulling away?

Perhaps it is egotistical of us to think that anything we do will influence them. Sure if we act like a complete jerk that will push them away, the same as it would a 'normal person' so we can certainly hurt our chances...

But I don't think the rest really matters. Does it matter if you shut up and say ''yes'' and ''no'' and be polite and cheery? Does it matter if you go cold and shut all their accounts down and fling them out as soon as you find out about OW?

Each of those is so purely individual to each person and scenario it is impossible to say. What worked for Barbie might not work for Stayed....

Will touted MLC advice work? Maybe....  Will doing nothing work? Maybe...

At the end of the day...it all boils down to the MLCer themselves.

So long as you don't turn into a mad hatter and start attacking them every time they show up, or spitting anger and venom at them...well then the rest is on them.

[Thunder]

I agree Mort, that is why we advise people to "Live your life as if they are not coming back."

Let them get on with it.

[Watcher]

Oh I believe we hold zero influence over the MLCer. The advice is nice and most likely needed when someone is a newly minted LBS. The reality sets in as the years mount.

That Denjef quote always infuriated me. Something about if my LBS just gave me space and backed off and stopped pleading my crisis may have been shorter. IDK something like that. Just to clarify I'm just talking about the quote and not Denjef. 

Anyway I live in 350 days a year in NC times 4.5 years. Yea that quote really didn't apply to me. LOL....

For years people theorized my filing would do something. Yea it did something. She dug her heels in deeper. LOL....I filed, she got S19 into a University and apparently is paying for Catholic High School for S16 

She has told me to go sleep with other women. She is not not rattled by my actions. Nope. I'm her enemy until I'm no longer her enemy.

My filing just made her angrier as I hear from my son. Now mine has stayed mostly Monster so maybe she just has more anger to burn off. IDK.

I do know that my actions have no impact on her whatsoever. That's why it's easier for me to simply accept now that her crisis will end when or if it ends on it's own timeline.

This has nothing to do with me. It's all on her. I love this forum however IDK if the advice is practical. Maybe it just doesn't apply to my case. However, it doesn't seem like its applying to many cases.

IDK. You really have to approach it like your going away to college, on sabbatical as a professor, or going overseas in the armed forces. A very long vacation. IDK. Plan for a lot of YEARS away and apart. Many YEARS.

I always said 5 YEARS when I started. I'm easily thinking 10 YEARS now. This is because there has been ZERO change in her behavior. I'm her fuel no matter how quiet and detached as I can be.

She needs a focal point for her rage and I AM IT ! I will always BE IT until she deals with her issues. There's no paving the way around that one. Again I love this forum and the many people here. I'm certainly not knocking it. Yes live your life as if they are not coming back maybe the best all around piece of advice.

I just think these crisis' are much larger than we ever anticipated or ,at least, I did. There's nothing we can do but live our lives. I will know more in 5 YEARS. 

Maybe one day she will join herself. You never know.  Now that would be an interesting thread. Just sayin.

[Not Applicable]

I agree Mort, that is why we advise people to "Live your life as if they are not coming back."

This piece of advice has always bothered me. For the two words "as if." It still implies they WILL come back. It's like talking out of both sides of your mouth.

As you can see on another thread when WhyUs more or less put it as "Live you life because they AREN'T coming back" everyone was so offended.

In both cases, what the LBS is being told to do is the same, but the implications about what the MLCer will do is the opposite.

[marvin4242]

This piece of advice has always bothered me. For the two words "as if." It still implies they WILL come back. It's like talking out of both sides of your mouth.

As you can see on another thread when WhyUs more or less put it as "Live you life because they AREN'T coming back" everyone was so offended.

In both cases, what the LBS is being told to do is the same, but the implications about what the MLCer will do is the opposite.

NYM: the big difference between the two is that you version has a false certainty, while the other one exists in a complex and messy world where none of us KNOW what will happen. I think anyone who clings to certainty of ANY kind is not probably going to be able to handle the truth of a bad and complicated situation well.

[Not Applicable]

OffRoad and Marvin, you both seem to have questions and comments that would be better addressed to WhyUs than me because they concern his point of view.

[Acorn]

Why are we supposed to trust the advice over our own instinct, wishes and common sense? Does following the advice cause more mental strain than just doing whatever we want and feels best?

I can only speak from my own experience so, here it goes.

I trusted the advice when I was fumbling in the dark as a newbie.  I thought,  ‘I have no idea how to navigate this weird situation.  What do I do?  I’d better listen to the collective wisdom of people who have been there and done that.’  So, I followed their advice to the letter. 

Once I found my footings, H’s and my personality, our specific situation (live-in, kids), personal and marital history shaped the way I handled my unique situation.  Some advices proved to be unsuitable for us and I discarded them.  Some worked like a charm and I kept up with them.   I could say that it was no longer ‘how to handle MLC situation’ but ‘what works for us.’   

I’d say, after awhile, one needs to develop and trust our own intuitions and common sense. 

That common sense included:

- I cannot possibly have any positive outcomes by  J.A.D.E. with H
- Treat H as I would want to be treated by him, within reason
- No one, absolutely NO ONE, especially my H, shall disrespect me
- Not many reconcile.  Get with the programme and just LIVE!
- MLC and all the popular sayings are not religion.  Seriously. 

[Acorn]

With apologies to Acorn as I don't wish to trample on her discussion topic.  I would like to ask NYM if she would/could at some point add a bit to her post so that I am clear on her thoughts before I add my post so I don't go somewhere she didn't intend if she is interested. 

These questions to me go to theory rather than a direct move to what may be could or should be changed, but to differences in type, stage, and circumstances.

Lp

I am interested in your views, LP.