[Acorn]

Here you go, folks!

Back to the topic of the MLC lens. I hope. 
Please kindly share your thoughts. 


https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11236.0

[marvin4242]

But what if the bet placed is your family home, your retirement savings, the kid's college fund?
I know too many LBSers who faired poorly because they felt certain that "their MLCer" was different, that "their MLCer would do no harm".

<snip>

If you are a newbie and think that because your MLCer has not filed for divorce you are "safe" for the time being - I would like to suggest you reconsider this.

Many LBSers on this site didn't have their MLCer file for years after BD - but eventually many of them did.
And by that point the MLCer had run up debt (Which in the USA is considered joint debt), spent thousands of dollars on the OW/OM, etc.

I absolutely agree with all of this, advice I got from early on (and I agree and do same) is no matter WHAT you want to do later (and you don't have to decide right now) immediately SECURE AND SEPARATE your finances, get a legal separation, agreement, separate assets and debts etc. It is not "love" to allow an out of control person to destroy your safety in any way (physical or financial).

And I believe most don't file for divorce immediately because they are running away and can't be bothered to finalize, not because they are conflicted. Or they are too stressed to face the work and its easier just to pretend you are divorced already. I know in my wife's mind (she said this to me) she had already "left me a long time ago" (which wasn't factually correct, but a rewriting). So from that you can see why bother to file for anything until you have to.

[Airmid]

I would like to bring Lawprofessor's comments forward to this thread because I think many of the points being replied to address her post.


Re: Seeing your situation through the MLC lens. Does it keep you stuck?
« Reply #116 on: Today at 08:13:17 AM »
Acorn I was putting together those same numbers.

 However my count suggests there are only 11 deep purple posters as Sobeit has 2 threads.  So fractionally lower results.

Also note that includes threads with a last posted date as far back as March 2017.

Then if we include the light purple I think there are 16 additional threads as well as Songanddances threads that she has since changed from light purple to the standard white if I remember correctly.

I'm well aware someone  will come along to note that not all those reconnecting or reconciled post for a variety of reasons that they will make guesses about. 

Can you imagine the number of those there would have to be, to be statistically relevant? 

Then there will be those who say well I know x who reconciled or I know of xs cousins father's neighbor who reconciled after x years. 

Again that doesn't change the numbers with any statistical relevance.

Then there will be those who object arguing all this is taking away my hope as though anyone else is responsible for whether or not they chose to lose hope.  Funnily enough some of these same will be the ones who recently posted in the last round asserting they don't want or need to be protected.

I would argue it's a win to divorce with grace.  The site preaches that a return entails it's a whole new relationship.  That seems infinitely more possible if one has divorced with grace rather than divorced with anger. 

I still can't see how the reality of the situation is being considered a negative that somehow endangers the site and the message of the site.

If truth and reality can actually do that, the message and purpose of the site need to be reexamined in my opinion as I'm not interested in participating in selling snake oil to vulnerable and desperate souls.

As well, there is a gross overstepping going on when a site purposefully censors, refuses to allow discussion, or says well yes, but those people will figure that out sometime in the future, the information available to users because the site or its members fear it could impact their decisions and usage of the site. A message should have more to stand on then that.  People are making decisions about their future and their lives based on purposefully incomplete information.  That's not fair to them, it's simply wrong, and it's ethically and morally wrong.  Yes, in my opinion.

Finally, you may note that this brings us back full circle to NYM questions/thoughts...


/////////////////

My response to the original post topic:

The MLC lens:  In time I think all of our answers to this question change or should redefine as we grow and heal.  Those who's answers fail to adjust with time are those who are stuck and hindered by the MLC lens. 

At first the MLC lens gave me an "explanation" of what was happening.  Comparing the explanation to the reality kept me busy for a short time as I tested and tried it out to see if it fit.

However, I was not having a MLC so the MLC lens became of no use to me in helping me to heal, helping me to survive, to grow, and to thrive. The MLC lens is a made up construct that may be useful in the beginning but if one continues to look through it, one often times stays a codependent conflict avoidant train-wreck focusing on the MLCer rather than healing oneself.  I chose to look through the windshield of the car I was driving rather than the windshield of a car careening down another path.

How would I define stuck all these years later?

Stuck is a level of emotional immaturity.  It can be akin to a toddler having a tantrum on one end of the spectrum and on the other choosing to sit and wallow for a few days before one picks themselves up and moves forward. 

Stuck is unhealthy.  It's unhealthy for one's self and for those around the stuck person.  When I started here, there were a group of really funny guys.  One of them told me the story of why a crab fisherman doesn't have to cover his bucket of crabs.  He sent me a cartoon of a courageous crab that wanted desperately to live.  The crab fought herself out from under a pile of other crabs and was about to escape from the bucket when one of the first crabs that was caught, an older, slow moving crab that had been in the bucket for a long time, grabbed the younger crab and held on tightly to her so she was unable to escape the bucket, repeatedly trying to pull her down into the bucket with all the other crabs that were wallowing in the bottom of the bucket until she was exhausted.  He said I had a choice, I could fight my way out or I could join the rest of the crabs in the bottom of the bucket and wallow in a self imposed hell.   

Stuck is like a rotten vegetable or fruit in a drawer of the refrigerator.  It infects the pieces surrounding it. 
Stuck shrieks and yells about the unfairness of it all.
Stuck is an emotional vampire, a black hole sucking the life out of all those around her as she finds pleasure and company in the despair of others so that she is not alone.
Stuck feels great compassion and makes excuses for the MLCer but viciously attacks a fellow LBS who differs in opinion.
Stuck takes everything or anything personally. 
Stuck lies and uses anything to keep her fellow crabs in the bucket.
Stuck is focused on control and keeping things status quo.
Stuck feeds depression great doses of pity.
Stuck is scared to be alone, scared to face her demons, and is angry with anyone who has faced their demons fearing she is judged by them.
Stuck takes no responsibility for her behavior.  Someone is always provoking her, hurting her, attacking her, some reason to excuse her behavior.
Stuck arms herself with the cloak of a martyr and hopes all others will notice her sacrifices and praise her because she has not matured into developing her own identity.
Stuck is a teenager that talks behind others backs, afraid to have an intelligent and mature discussion because she is not confident enough in herself and her identity to be comfortable with others having a different opinion.

The propensity to be stuck is in anyone, LBS and MLCer.  It is a also a choice we make.  One can aspire to be Queen Crab of a very small pond or one can grow up and embrace life with the peace that comes with maturity but sadly not with always with age.

What is stuck truly?

Stuck is fear and depression and anger and guilt all wrapped in an emotionally immature person.  It is ugly.  It is everything our MLCer's struggle with and do battle with as they progress through this journey.  But too many LBS'S refuse to do just what they hope and pray their MLCer will do.

[Acorn]

That’s too funny, Airmid!
I coped LP’s definition of ‘stuck’ and was just about to post it on the new thread, and behold, you have done it already.
Great minds, etc. 

[Acorn]

If I may add to the list of ‘stuck’:

- stuck is refusing to see reality, stuck fast in fantasy mode
- stuck is inability to see the difference between fantasy and hope

I’m sure others have more to add.

[Airmid]

Acorn - I wish there was a "like" button - I would add it to your last post.

[Treasur]

If I may add to the list of ‘stuck’:

- stuck is refusing to see reality, stuck fast in fantasy mode
- stuck is inability to see the difference between fantasy and hope

I’m sure others have more to add.

- stuck is feeling like a victim of someone else's crisis
- stuck is focusing so much on what you've lost that you can't see what you might have

[terrified_in_TN]

I didn't come to this site looking for advice. I came to this site because I was trying to figure out what happened to my wife. The changes I saw in her simply didn't make sense. But I wasn't looking for advice. I simply needed to know what happened to her. Once I understood that I knew I was capable of deciding what to do without anyone else telling me.

Wonderful.  As it should be.  YOU get to make your own choice.

The support I received from people on this site was extremely helpful as I tried to deal with a situation that made no sense. The advice, though I'm sure well-intentioned, was often annoying. Being told to take my eyes off my wife and focus on myself when I was trying to figure out why my wife was doing what she was doing was not helpful.

Don't know what to say...

The reconciliation statistics are meaningless IMO. This may sound cold but if only 1 out of 1000 reconcile and that 1 is me then the other 999 don't matter. If I give up because I'm told chances of reconciliation are extremely low, then I become 1 of the 999 and that skews the statistics.

Again wonderful.  But the way you stated this shows your bias.  I could easily turn it around and say if you DID reconcile, then you skew the statistics.  Not that there is anything wrong with your opinion.  Its yours to have.

MLC lasts a very long time and is very hard on LBSes. The only real conclusion I feel I can draw, based on what I've learned from reading thousands of posts over the past 5 years, is that most LBSes give up long before their MLCer comes out of the tunnel. Posting statistics that state that only about .0025% of the members on this site have posted reconciliations threads will only increase the number of LBSes who give up, IMO.

I mentioned this earlier in the last thread.  You might very well be right.

If you want some meaningful statistics, perhaps you should contact all LBSes who have been HS members for at least 10 years, get contact info from them for their MLCers, and then contact the MLCers and ask how many of them would have reconciled if they would have had that option. But the site hasn't been around long enough for that to work. So we're trying to assign meaning to statistics for a long term disorder from a site that has only been around for a short time and doesn't reflect the MLCers POV. Good luck with that!

Exactly.  Thats NEVER going to happen.  So we have to make do with the information we DO have available.

The next best thing might be to listen to what ex-MLCers have to say but they don't seem to last long on this site before the negative nellies drive them away. Most of them that I can recall seemed to have wanted to reconcile although several of them couldn't because the LBS had moved on.

Don't really have a comment for this one other than one could say we might learn quite a bit from the OW/OM that have joined the site in the past but have been run off as well.

We have an acronym in the data processing field, GIGO. Stands for Garbage In Garbage Out. RedStar is correct. The "data" you are processing to determine the odds of reconciliation occurring is useless, primarily because you aren't correcting for all of the LBSes who decide not to stand or who decide to quit standing.

Your opinion, not fact.  It might be useless to YOU.  Its not totally a scientific fact for sure, but as I said above its the best data that we can compile based upon the information we have available.  Yes, the reasons could very well be MOST LBSes refuse to have the MLCer back.  Still doesn't change the fact most don't come back.

Now that I feel that I have a pretty good idea what caused my wife's MLC, I figure the odds of her wanting to return are pretty good. Better than even. But I can't say that this applies to anybody else's situation. Everyone has to decide that for themselves and it's going to depend on the cause of the spouses "MLC".

EXACTLY, and that is a good thing.  And I wish nothing but the best for you.

I figure my odds of reconciliation are still dependent on whether I'm willing to be there for my wife if she becomes ready to return. If I were more easily swayed by other people's opinions discussions like this one wouldn't help me to eventually reconcile as this discussion seems to be doing a great job of spreading doubt and killing hope.

Again, wonderful.  Some people ARE easily swayed by other opinions and discussions.  ESPECIALLY when they arrive so raw.  Again I think it is IMPERATIVE that they be armed with the truth rather than hopeful thinking.  Their very life or future could depend on it.

And nobody is killing hope.  If that is how you choose to interpret this discussion, that is on you.

Quote from: Watcher on Today at 11:08:14 AM

    In the United States only 0.5 percent of the population has run a marathon.  Those reconnection odds are slightly better. Just sayin.   


I've completed 6 marathons and I'm not done yet. Based on this comment I guess my odds of reconnecting are pretty good. Primarily because MLC truly is a marathon, not a sprint. LBSes who don't have the stamina to handle a marathon are going to continue to skew the reconciliation statistics, not because reconciliation couldn't have happened for them but because they chose to drop out of the race before it was over.

Quote from: Airmid on Today at 12:31:53 PM

    Oooh watch out Morte.
    Language like that will get you moderated or possibly banned!
    This is creating an "unsafe environment" for the standers!!!


Inflammatory comments like this aren't helpful either.

[Watcher]

This seems like a "Mr. Gorbachev, Tear Down This Wall" moment.

Well I wore my MLC lens for 4 years. IDK. Being stuck meanwhile still being a responsible family man who was repeatedly thrown out of the house and still had 2 young son's to provide for while in exile. IDK. That's pretty hard to pull off however those were the cards I was dealt.

I wasn't listening to anyone during those 4 years because I knew what I needed to do for my 2 sons and her to an extent as I knew something was/is wrong with her. I didn't even listen to Thunder and she tried her best with me for years. 

It's not an easy experience and it probably falls along the lines of accepting that the marriage ended. The MLC lens makes excuses and keeps hope alive. Yea and I put up with way more than I ever should have from her.

IDK, Ready2Transform made a comment to me last June and it finally stuck. What can I say ? I was a slow learner/listener. IDK, I think my heart finally accepted the end.

Now I'm just getting divorced. IDK what that means. Then I'm going to continue to live my life. That take one day at a time philosophy never ends I believe.

As for her, she is not my problem. I believe if she comes out of it one day she will seek me out to talk. In the meantime it's not going to prevent me from enjoying life.

I wasted too many years focused on her crisis. I think my MLC lens will remain off.  IDK, I pretty much just march to my own beat anyway. I generally like the forum and probably 96.5 percent of the people here at times.

Those are just my raw numbers btw as I have no empirical data to back them up. 

[Not Applicable]

I feel there is lack of perspectives on mlc that isn't filtered through the lens of the relationship with the lbs,this discussion included.