[OffRoad]

(like young people who think because they or ok its just fine to get sick or people who don't actually understand what "freedoms" the constitution is referring to).

The things most people remember from the Declaration of Independence also shape their thoughts on freedom. Who really understands what freedom "means" in the context of documents? Like everything, words are open to interpretation.

A few parts from the Declaration of Independence that are pretty broad, but people hold onto:
"that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
 
"organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness." 

"and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. "

Again, I adhere to social distancing as a consideration to others. If the door sign says "No shirt, no shoes no enter", thems the rules for that store. Same for mask. The people who walk in without a mask don't care about anyone else except their own selfish entitled selves. MLCERS in the making or actuality. Trying to make sense of it is , as UM always says, like trying to taste green with your elbow. If anyone should understand we don't get to control what other people do, it's people who had to deal with an MLCER.  So I rarely go out. If I do, I am aware of who is around me and if they are following social distancing recommendations.  If they aren't,  I avoid them or leave. As is my right. The ones I feel bad for are the people who are working and can't leave, so their choice is confrontation or submittal. In theory, though, they have the right to get another job or file a complaint that they don't feel safe at their job.

Freedom has a lot of layers and meanings to different people. I may not understand someone else's point of view, but I don't get to control it, so it's on me to protect myself, and my loved ones if I can and if I can't  for them to protect themselves.

[marvin4242]

Offroad: all good points. And we have a lot of precedent and analysis and define the bounds of freedom. For example I am not allowed to walk down the street naked, although technically it wont “hurt” anyone. I am not allowed to urinate or defecate in public for public health reasons, as it will potentially hurt others. So the entire mask argument for those who claim freedom has no legal, ethical nor social basis. It is closes to conspiracy theory thinking. If we had said you are no longer allowed to protest to redress your grievances we know these rights are spelled out and they are understood. But even then we are allowed to place limits and restrictions on them for safety reasons.

So as others have said (and I get the sense you agree) its one thing if one chooses for oneself, but its different when it impacts others.

[marvin4242]

More interesting information, various studies of public transport in Europe shows it may be safer than we think, but assuming riders adhering to guidelines. Most of these studies are in Europe and Tokyo where they have been running aggressive contact tracing after reducing the base infection level, and none of the case clusters have traced back to use of public transport. Obviously we are nowhere near that base level and I have not yet seen any reports of fully functioning contact tracing in any part of the country, as it appears it has to be run at the state level.

“ In countries where the pandemic has ebbed, ridership has rebounded in far greater numbers than in New York City — yet there have been no notable superspreader events linked to mass transit, according to a survey of transportation agencies conducted by The New York Times.

Those findings could be evidence that subways, commuter railways and buses may not be a significant source of transmission, as long as riders wear masks and train cars or buses never become as intensely crowded as they did in pre-pandemic rush hours.”

“ In Paris, public health authorities conducting contact tracing found that none of the 386 infection clusters identified between early May and mid-July were linked to the city’s public transportation.

A study of coronavirus clusters in April and May in Austria did not tie any to public transit. And in Tokyo, where public health authorities have aggressively traced virus clusters, none have been linked to the city’s famously crowded rail lines.”

“ Among the range of urban activities, the experts say, riding the subway is probably riskier than walking outdoors but safer than indoor dining.
The low infection rates on some public transportation systems can be attributed, in part, to measures transit agencies have adopted, including mandating face masks; disinfecting trains and buses; and ramping up service and asking businesses to stagger work hours to reduce rush-hour crowding.”


https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/02/nyregion/nyc-subway-coronavirus-safety.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

[OldPilot]

Here is an article about our front line defenders.

https://www.nytimes.com/video/us/100000007097093/coronavirus-st-johns-hospital-far-rockaway.html?fbclid=IwAR2gVT5zMo4nqMwsypRPuR5P5fylMUfxTZESNEy05h2k_28Ykkvx7ZsHHVI

[readytofixmyselffirst]

Hello,

Very interesting comments in regards to suicide and covid. Xyzcf- I agree completely that more people need access to therapy and if we cut the defense budget by 50,000,000,000. We could afford every man, woman, and child an hour of therapy at $150.00 an hour. Since a small amount of people need this we could afford therapy for everyone. That is only a 6.9% cut to the budget and would still leave the US with the largest military budget in the world. Three times over.

Suicide rate has been increasing since 2000. Despite all the connections with phones and the internet, we are actually more disconnected than ever before. This is especially in regards to our young people. Another interesting note is that suicides by middle aged white men is the highest rate in our country. Overall, white males counted for 69.67% of all suicides. These statistics were before covid.

Suicide is separate from covid and was going to increase regardless of covid. So I don't think you can compare the two until after the crisis is past and see if the rate of increase was faster during the time of covid as compared to the rate prior to covid.

I know it is a dark subject  but that is why many of us push counseling for all LBSers as a means to grow and cope with their socioemotional health during the crisis.

(((((Ready)))))

[marvin4242]

Two new studies seem to point to children under 14 being less susceptible to getting Covid-19, but being almost twice as virulent an agent of spread of the disease. If this holds up then it would really put a brake on any country trying to reopen schools quickly.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/williamhaseltine/2020/07/31/new-evidence-suggests-young-children-spread-covid-19-more-efficiently-than-adults/#612a8b2019fd

“ The researchers found that although young children had a somewhat lower risk of infection than adults and were less likely to become ill, children age 14 and younger transmit the virus more efficiently to other children and adults than adults themselves. Their risk of transmitting Covid-19 was 22.4 percent—more than twice that of adults aged 30 to 49, whose rate of contagiousness was about 11 percent. “Although childhood contacts were less likely to become cases,” they wrote, “children were more likely to infect household members.””

[xyzcf]

Many people are concerned about the safety of a potential COVID vaccine and how quickly it is being made. I found this short video from the CBC helpful in explaining how it is possible to produce a safe vaccine in a shorter period of time than what it would normally take.

How COVID-19 vaccines are being created quickly without sacrificing safety

https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1771808835773

[Treasur]

An interesting if not very cheerful article https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02278-5 that seems to suggest the likeliehood that Covid will be part of our lives for quite a few years.

Tbh reading it didn't surprise me. The two big 'killer app' issues that I think we just don't know yet is how long any vaccine immunity might last and how we set up more reliable testing/tracing processes that allow parts of our individual countries to suppress transmission spikes before they get too big to do that without locking down a wider population. Here in the UK, I'm pretty confident that we haven't yet got the ability to do the latter as a matter of course and reading between the political lines, I think our government is being told by those who know better than me that a serious second wave (and potentially a second lockdown) is looking eminently possible in the autumn.

It occurred to me actually, reading the article, that how one reacts to it might not be unlike the most blunt likely scenarios that MLC vets might unfurl for an LBS newbie. We usually don't bc it beats people to their knees when they are already frightened.....they don't want to hear it. I didn't want to hear it either. But truthfully, the pattern suggests that most LBS would be more honestly served by accepting a scenario that says their MLC spouse will almost certainly have at least one ow/om, will trash their joint finances, be impossible to communicate with rationally, be a lousy self-centred parent, that most LBS will end up separated or divorced and will probably not see their spouse start acting like a sane decent adult for at least seven years......so now, what does Standing look like to you and do you want to do that?  Not a nice message is it? Not easy to give or hear. But, based on the patterns we see here, probably statistically the most likely scenario.....

I wonder if the issue is much the same with the virus.
If you knew that most probably we were all going to be living with a series of trial and error virus ups and downs for say the next 3-5 years.....along with the unpredictable ways in which society might adapt to that....would you do anything differently now in how you live your life?

[marvin4242]

An interesting study about efficacy of masks, spoilers:

N95, surgical, poly/cotton, and multi layer cotton masks work well, while knitted, bandana, fleece are the worse (with fleece actually being worse than wearing no mask).

https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/early/2020/08/07/sciadv.abd3083

[xyzcf]

40% of people with coronavirus have no symptoms. Might they be the key to ending the pandemic?

https://www.chron.com/news/article/40-of-people-with-coronavirus-have-no-symptoms-15469295.php?utm_campaign=CMS%20Sharing%20Tools%20(Desktop)&utm_source=t.co&utm_medium=referral

This was reported in The Washington post but I do not have access to it there...what was interesting to me is the possible connection between other vaccines that people had been given and the reduction in infections.

 "Seven types of vaccines given one, two or five years in the past were associated with having a lower rate of infection with the new coronavirus. Two vaccines in particular seemed to show stronger links: People who got a pneumonia vaccine in the recent past appeared to have a 28% reduction in coronavirus risk. Those who got polio vaccines had a 43% reduction in risk."

By chance, I just had a pneumococcal vaccine 2 weeks ago.

There has also been information about BCG vaccine which  also received as a child.

They are discovering more information everyday. The more we can contain the virus and stay safe, science will figure it out so we can get out of this pandemic and back to living.