[Nas]

To be fair, I did tell Why that something he said was not true/wrong. He was misinterpreting the information he read, that of people who have delusional disorder, which is well documented as an extremely rare disorder, some (but not all) also have depression alongside their delusional disorder. It did not say that depression is a precursor for delusional disorder. Or that depression plays any role whatsoever in the development of the disorder.

I also agree that there are lots of things in psychology that are “known“ and no amount of differing layman opinion can change those facts. And as someone with way too much experience with the medical field as a patient, the description of many symptoms can be misinterpreted or misunderstood. Look at the symptoms for ovarian cancer, they are vaguely described and every woman on this forum has probably experienced them all. We cannot all just assume we have ovarian cancer because the description we read fits us. It’s perhaps more true for symptoms of psychological disorders. Even the symptoms for depression, without evaluation by a professional, could “fit” people who do not in any way suffer from depression.

This is a discussion thread, not a personal story thread. I for one am always glad to see discussion threads get started. I don’t think we have enough of them on this forum. We used to have more.

[xyzcf]

Xyzcf I am very curious, where do you see any poster trying to tell another one that they are "wrong?

Quote from: WHY on Today at 08:24:45 AM

And guess what the most common comorbidity with depression is?  Delusional disorder....

Response from another poster:
"This is simply just not true. There’s a real danger in making statements like this"

It's a tone, I feel that people are judging others, trying to bend their mind to what they consider "best".

Why often brings up wanting to know what kind of stats there are, why more people do not continue to post....this is not important to me but it seems to be important to him. He's often told to take his eyes off the need to know this and focus on himself...but this is what he is interested in ( and I believe he has focused on himself in the meantime)  and if he wishes to express that here, then so be it. Is it harmful to his healing and growth? I don't know but he's an adult and can make decisions for himself about his research into this topic.

Another poster has expressed that "he cannot give up and needs to have hope".....I  read that as meaning from other things he has written that he has hope that his wife will get therapy and get through the crisis. He's been told repeatedly that therapy doesn't work and then given a list of things he can have hope for in his future...none of which include a reconciliation with his wife.

As you said marvin, this site is not trying to sell anything to save the MLCer.

Recently, I have been interested in the use of hallucinogens, LSD, psilocybin (Magic mushrooms) and others that are being used to treat depression, PTSD, major anxiety disorders and my mind has entertained the idea...from some things I have read...what if these substances were used on someone with a MLC....could they have some effect of them?

It's just a thought I have, but things get discovered from thoughts and ideas that no one thinks could be possible.

People are not wrong..they are hurting. We can share our own experiences, but I do not believe that we should insist that they follow the road we took.

Just my opinion as I read along.

[Treasur]

We find ourselves living in a truth-ish world nowadays, don’t we? And of course a lot of we LBS are rather sensitive, if we experienced a lot of gaslighting, to the difference between my truth, your truth and a factual truth. Or indeed the difference between truth and opinion, the danger of one’s own cognitive biases and the potential risks of a kind of group think or confirmation bias. Probably why discussion threads are particularly useful here, idk.

I think one of the things I find tricky is how to say anything potentially useful at all when a new poster shows up metaphorically bleeding. Most of us, even years on, empathise with that yearning for answers and solutions and hope. We remember it in our bones perhaps even if we no longer feel it as we once did. And sometimes it sits uncomfortably with the lessons we took from our own experience or the conclusions we reached eventually in our own situation. And we understand that sometimes an LBS has to go through their own version of that mental tussle before they reach a place where they can consider seeing some things through a different lens. And that the tussle can lead us to different conclusions from one LBS to another.

Sometimes I don’t know what to say bc I can’t give the kind of certainty or reassurance that folks are so desparately and understandably seeking. But I also don’t want to blow soothing smoke about things I can’t know either or things where the prognosis, if one played the odds based on the available information, are poor. Or tbh just when one has the hard earned humility to say I don’t know. Even now, I couldn’t say with honest certainty that my xh had an MLC, or why, or what I could have done differently that might have made a difference to what happened. And if I can’t say that about my xh, how on earth could I possibly say that about someone else’s spouse or someone else’s situation? That’s just beyond my pay grade, so to some extent I just can’t answer many of those understandable questions that new and newish posters have. I can only with hindsight see some things I did or didn’t do that made the situation I found myself in worse or better for me, and how someone else’s ‘crisis’ and behaviour created a different kind of ‘crisis’ and reactions in me and my life. Is that useful to anyone else? Idk.

I think having a place where you feel heard and not crazy, where people are respectful and gentle about how you feel at a given time, can be helpful in itself, so I’m a bit disappointed with myself at times when I have been too absolute or too quick to judge or a bit bite-y with others. Or vice versa. Sometimes it’s ok to say nothing when we don’t agree perhaps 

I think what I do know a bit more about - partly from my own experience, partly from story after story here, partly from my own professional background - is the patterns in how most LBS react and the potential damage they can incur. And the things that may be worth trying that help the LBS to create a bit of stable ground under their feet in the first couple of years. But even that comes with a million caveats of sample of one at a time, doesn’t it?  I don’t think I have anything very useful to say about MLC or MLCers tbh. But then they are not the ones who usually show up here looking for support, are they? 

[FrenchHusband]

Regarding all the prognosis stuff, I have maybe one piece to add, a quote I have read a long time ago regarding adolescence. Anna Freud wrote that what would be pathologic for adults is "normal" for adolescents : neurosis, psychosis or asocial behavior by example.

From my point of view, what is now considered "normal" for teenagers under existential crisis can be applied also to our dear spouses under Mid Life Crisis (another existential crisis). So many diagnosis may seem to make sense... even if the whole situation is lacking sense.

What I find good for me, dealing with my W under MLC and 2 daughters under (mild) teenage crisis : I apply the policy that is recomended here : focus on myself, GAL, detach, do not react, no expectation, set up boundaries, etc... Regarding the daughters, I observe the outcome is very positive almost immediately for me and for our relationship. Regarding W, well there is no improvement on her but no worsening, and at least there is improvement and peace for me.

[Atari25]

No one can say for sure what causes MLC. There are many theories, many ideas. These have been expressed by posters throughout the years.

No one answer is correct.

I am better when I have some knowledge about a topic. It helps me to understand and allows me to realize that this is something real, and unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be any way to turn the crisis into "normal" behavior. Until, in some cases, that happens "spontaneously" and we read that some MLCers are better than they were before their crisis. Other never seem to "come back" and once again, no reason why some do and others don't.

When people read information that they think might pertain to MLC, there is a thread to post it on.

The most current "Links, Blogs and articles to share" is found at:

https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=12131.0

Over time, many people have shared information about things that struck them about MLC.

Accept that as individuals, we all have our own personal stories, belief systems and knowledge base concerning MLC.

As adults, we can read things that resonate with us and our situation, and by all means share this information.

What I find here, is arguing about whose research is right and whose is wrong. Judgement of those ideas we disagree with and a strong desire to "protect" other posters from ideas that others do not agree with.

Do any of us need to be defending our position, especially here.?

Is anyone here really more knowledgeable than another?

People comment on what their therapists have said...does that make them an authority? Especially since they most likely have never met our MLC spouse.And like in so many other professions, a different therapist will have a different point of view.

My thoughts as I read along...is it truly helpful to point out to people that they are wrong based upon, as Acorn has coined, a sample of one?

Well said.

The more I read and hear from other people the better. I was so lost 3-4 months ago and places like this help me understand and give me more confidence in myself. I can see now it's going to be a long journey, I appreciate everyone's opinions.

[UrsaMajor]

I resurrected the discussion thread on detachment form the Archives based on the discussion here and a request form the original Thread Owner

https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=10663.0

[marvin4242]

Xyzcf I am very curious, where do you see any poster trying to tell another one that they are "wrong?

Quote from: WHY on Today at 08:24:45 AM

And guess what the most common comorbidity with depression is?  Delusional disorder....

Response from another poster:
"This is simply just not true. There’s a real danger in making statements like this"

It's a tone, I feel that people are judging others, trying to bend their mind to what they consider "best".

Thank you for clarifying, I agree that tone is very important and one of my favorite things about this site has been the kindness, the tone and the fact that it has never become a free for all due to moderation and the people involved. It truly is a safe place regardless of viewpoint, beliefs and where we are in our journey.

I guess I never felt like any post had any tone that I picked up. If anything I would’ve argued that what I wrote is over the same theoretical line. It definitely was not my intent. I am participating here because I’d like to help people as I was helped when I was truly struggling. I do believe the best thing to do is support people where they are not where we think they should be. But in my opinion, sometimes it is useful to separate knowledge and fact from opinion and belief. Specially, when we are very lost, confused and in pain. When we feel like we are drowning we try to hold onto anything we can and I think holding on something that floats is much more useful than holding onto something that sinks.

[xyzcf]

When we feel like we are drowning we try to hold onto anything we can and I think holding on something that floats is much more useful than holding onto something that sinks.

Thanks for your response marvin. Indeed, I think each one of us wants to "help" others and we all have things to share. But a bit of what you wrote, makes me think of the word "fixers" which we caution people not to try and be for their MLCer.  This forum is great, but it captures only the written word. We don't see the LBSer's "body language" and we truly don't have much knowledge of the poster's real life situation. For example, LBSers with children may need to have a different approach than those who do not have children.

I have been thinking about this thread a lot.....and what I needed when I first came to HS and for a long time after. My sample of one...I absolutely had to have hope that my husband would return to our marriage. At that time, I really could not process anything else. I don't know what would have happened to me had I not had hope that this was something temporary and it would all go away. I was not ready to hear anything else.

The rest of my world kept telling me I was wrong, move on....I was not ready.

What I benefitted most from was the support of others. Honestly, HS was very different then.  I also needed to discuss what was causing MLC...some of those discussions were pretty wild.  But they helped me to get to the place where I was ready to accept. My faith also plays a big part in my hope and how I chose to treat my husband.

I keep going back to what I have learned about adult learning, at least what I was taught in my work experience of educating adults in health and behavioral change. I come from this knowledge base that unless the person is ready, change is not possible.

I also think a lot about Viktor Frankel's "Man's Search for Meaning" and those who survived the concentration camp because they had "hope" and also did not set a time frame for when their captivity would end.

The trauma that the LBSer is going through, I did not understand that this would cause so much wounding. I thought, well, many people divorce and they "get over it".......wasn't quite so straight forward or easy. I really "expected" to be ok maybe in a year? he was after all "only a man and not a very good man at that."

We all have our own personal styles. And some things we say will work for some posters but not for all.

But we are NOT "fixers" to prevent the LBSer from the journey that he/she will need to take to heal. We don't have enough information about posters to make  what feels like absolute "instructions" of what we must do to heal. And, I think we need to respect where the LBSer is....the early years are really hard...and yes, we would like to make that easier...but I do think, after many years of observing, that we are pretty good at figuring out how to heal and become whole...and that will be different for each of us...so pushing our views on others can sometimes feel like we don't think the LBSer can make their own decision.

Again, just my point of view.

[Nas]

I'm actually a bit speechless at the content of this thread.

"The truth does not change based on our ability to stomach it." I love this quote in your signature, XYZ.

Is "help" only help when it fits one's worldview? That's an honest question to you, because it does seem that you don't have any problem sharing how you felt, how you feel now, and what you believe should be done on this forum, while at the exact same time, criticizing other people's sharing of their own feelings and opinions. We're all doing the same thing, but some people are saying things that you don't agree with. Voicing ones opinion is very different from fixing. I very, very rarely on this forum have seen anyone say "You NEED to do X" or "You MUST do Y." It has happened, but, again, rarely, and usually in circumstances where abuse has been indicated. And even then, the intent behind it seems well meaning.

I have seen fixers in my life, Marvin is not one. Nor am I. What I am is a person who has faith in the resilience of LBS to persevere after turmoil. Treating them as if they are helpless and incapable of hearing anything other than what they wish to be true in my opinion is not a necessity, but at times enabling and perhaps a bit infantilizing. I trust each and every member of this forum to make their own choices, no matter what I or anyone else shares with them. I also trust their ability to ignore specific posts or entire threads that don't resonate or don't hold interest for them.
As you say, we all have our own personal styles, and some things we say may help some while not helping others. There's no need to shut down discussions because of this, nor is there any reason to label people unkind or "fixers" when they're just giving voice to their lived experience and sharing their thoughts and feelings.

Funnily enough, I'm at a conference this week with over 250 neuroscientists, and I am hearing and learning all kinds of very interesting things - some topics that have briefly been touched on are of particular interest to this forum (limerence as an addiction came up yesterday) and I hope to have time to share some stuff soon. But I wanted to quickly respond here.

[Songanddance]

but I do not believe that we should insist that they follow the road we took.

Not quite sure where anyone on this thread insisted on anything.

Voicing ones opinion is very different from fixing

   
Quite!

Equally voicing one's own experience is also not fixing - it's simply throwing our hard earned and sometimes painfully acquired knowledge into the mix and hoping that it gives the LBS, who is hurting, enough information to help them decide what is right for them.

I also trust their ability to ignore specific posts or entire threads that don't resonate or don't hold interest for them.

Exactly.

It's a discussion thread which has, ironically, gone way off piste from the original question;has that been answered by the way?